Dave 1 on Canal Street Dreams

Summary

Canal Street Dreams — Dave 1 on Canal Street Dreams

Podcast: Canal Street Dreams
Hosts: Eddie Huang & Natashia Perrotti
Guest: Dave 1 (Chromeo), with Chris (producer/director)
Release Date: September 19, 2025
Summary by Expert Podcast Summarizer

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives into style, mentorship, New York’s creative culture, family, and the evolution of American discourse, anchored by a conversation with Dave 1 of Chromeo. The chat seamlessly bounces between behind-the-scenes recollections of the Vice documentary, nostalgia for early internet/art/music scenes, the nuances of semiotics in cultural debates, family upbringing, and the importance of intergenerational learning. Ultimately, it’s a sprawling, layered meditation on how creative communities grow together and how we make sense (or fail to) of a rapidly changing social landscape—artistically and politically.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

A. Documentaries, Nostalgia, and the Cycles of Downtown Culture

[00:19–06:16]

• The episode opens with friendly banter and reflections on the behind-the-scenes process of shooting the Vice documentary, highlighting Dave 1's fondness for humor and self-awareness.
• On documentary timing and Vice nostalgia:
  • Dave notes the resurgence of the Vice sensibility in a younger generation amid a "post-woke edgelord moment," with American Apparel reopening and nostalgia for early-2000s downtown. (05:01)
  • “We’re at a moment of tremendous curiosity about Vice magazine.” — Dave 1 (05:16)

B. Creativity, Self-awareness, & The New York Condition

[06:20–14:49]

• The group breaks down the essence of New York’s creative scene: playful, self-effacing, and always “in on the joke.”
• The difficulty of communicating humor and self-awareness online, where nuance is lost and everything is taken literally (10:32).
• Anecdotes about immigrant families, loud dinner-table debates, intergenerational misunderstandings, and love expressed through friction.

C. Mentorship, Family, and Upbringing

[14:53–21:13]

• Dave 1 discusses his Moroccan-French-Canadian upbringing—highlighting the cultural clashes and rich arguments of family life.
• Reflections on the impact of both his mother and father (a “Chomsky linguist,” “the original Bernie”) on his sensibility and ethics (15:19–15:54).
• The panel shares stories of growing up in immigrant communities and learning to be both tough and loving.

D. Academic Hip-Hop & Legacy of Mentors

[16:22–19:20]

• References to hip-hop’s intellectual lineage—Greg Tate, Jeff Chang, Minya Oh (“Miss Info”), and the role of second-generation immigrant writers.
• The importance of “academic curiosity that always stays street-level,” and how hip hop culture can be both scholarly and rooted.

E. Free Speech, Discourse, and the Crisis of Semiotics

[21:13–44:39]

• Extended, thoughtful discussion on:
  • The fragmentation of American shared values compared to European models (22:51–23:16).
  • How hate speech, free speech, and online discourse are muddied by a lack of shared semiotic understanding (33:46–34:49).
• On social media and misunderstandings:
  • “The semiotics of that term are very complicated, and they’re layered even within Jewish culture.” — Dave 1 (35:22, on ‘Zionist’)
• Use of the fair use/parody legal precedent (Uncle Luke’s case) as a metaphor for how society should distinguish between hateful and critical/ironic speech (30:35–32:17).
• The urgent need for Americans to learn semiotics, just as previous decades were forced to learn about race, gender, or identity.

F. Talking to “The Other Side” and Boundary Drawing

[40:18–49:30]

• The group discusses the ethics of interviewing polarizing figures like Gavin McInnes (founding Vice editor, now far-right pundit):
  • “There is a real difference, my friend, between accepting someone’s point of view and understanding or understanding where it comes from.” — Chris (40:34)
  • “I hate it and fundamentally disagree with it... but you’re doing a documentary, and you have to kind of give a psychological portrait.” — Dave 1 (40:57)
• The need to address—not erase—ugly ideas lest they fester unchallenged.
• Class, education, and the difference between bad actors and regular people shaped by ignorance.

G. Mentorship, Vulnerability, & Artistic Evolution

[52:01–65:42]

• On being lifelong learners and the balancing act of mentoring:
  • “It’s our duty as older people... to be the mentor to them because they’ll keep you fresh.” — Dave 1 (63:36)
• Generational humility: “Old people old is insecurity... if you just be you, you’re going to stay fresh.” — Chris (63:36)
• The vital role of transmission: sharing knowledge, values, and skills openly, while recognizing when to step back and let the next group find their own way.

H. The Wonder of Sibling Collaboration & Cultural Transmission

[56:04–61:46]

• Dave 1 reflects on his unique relationship with his brother and creative partner, A-Trak, and on how familial bonds and artistic mentorship inform one’s entire sensibility—drawing back to deeper family traditions.

I. Music, Sampling, and the Cycles of Cool

[67:19–82:35]

• The history of discovering funk/disco through hip-hop sampling; recall of the “Afro on the album cover” method of crate digging (67:49–69:02).
• The cyclical nature of music trends—referencing the 80s and the potential for future “ironic” revivals (Nickelback and Creed for hipster bands!).
• The enduring principle that the best music is often a reimagining, or ironic appropriation, of older, out-of-fashion genres.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Vice Doc, Early Internet & Zeitgeist:
  “There’s so much nostalgia now about, like early 2000s downtown... we're at a moment of tremendous curiosity about Vice magazine. So it's in a good time.” — Dave 1 [05:13]
• On American Discourse:
  “When you cannot agree on baseline common principles, then every debate on top of that seems moot. Yeah, that gets scary. Right?” — Dave 1 [22:52]
• On Social Media & Semiotics:
  “The semiotics of that term are very complicated, and they're layered even within Jewish culture.” — Dave 1 [35:22]
• On Family & Immigrant Upbringing:
  “I will cuss you the fuck out... but then five minutes later, we're like, all right, I love you. I'll see you tomorrow.” — Eddie [14:05]
• On Generational Learning:
  “Old people old is insecurity. Because out of insecurity with kids, they talk down... if you just be you, you're gonna stay fresh.” — Chris [63:36]
• On Mentorship:
  “You suck until you don't. It's gonna be five years usually of where you're not great. You keep your head down, you keep practicing diligently, pay homage… and one day the best feeling will be when they give you an accolade.” — Dave 1 [60:37–61:31]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Intro & Frame Checking: [00:00–00:47]
• Vice Doc, 2000s Nostalgia: [04:57–06:16]
• Early Vice, Montreal/New York Eras: [06:07–06:46]
• On Internet Seriousness & Humor: [09:35–10:48]
• Family/Loud Immigrant Households: [12:53–14:31]
• Dave on Parents, Academic Background: [15:12–16:11]
• Mentors in Writing/Hip-Hop: [16:22–17:44]
• Free Speech, Social Contracts, & Semiotics: [26:41–34:49]
• On Hate Speech and Understanding: [41:38–44:13]
• Mentorship/Transmission, Generation Gap: [63:36–66:40]
• Family/Collaborative Creativity: [56:04–62:06]
• Funk, Disco, & Sampling: [67:19–73:27]
• Custom-Ordering Rap Trends: [73:27–77:07]
• Musical ‘Final Boss’: Creed & Nickelback Revival?: [77:17–81:11]

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Tone & Language

The episode is honest, funny, and sprawling—equal parts reflective, self-deprecating, and earnest. Eddie, Natashia, Chris, and Dave 1 all lean into vulnerability and self-awareness, relishing lively intellectual (and aesthetic) debate, grounding every point in personal stories and generous cultural references. This is creative banter at its best: prickly, loving, and always a little bit in on its own joke.

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In a Nutshell

A must-listen for anyone interested in New York creative culture, intergenerational growth, music history, documentary ethics, or simply how to stay open, humble, and funny in an era of endless online noise.

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For full episodes, bonus content, and more, visit basedfob.substack.com

Transcript

[Dave 1]

You know, the funny thing would be if I asked to see the shot, but I won't.

[Eddie]

We're playing it.

[Chris]

I was about to. I was about to offer for you to check this frame.

[Dave 1]

I do want to.

[Chris]

You check.

[Eddie]

You honestly check the frame. That's how we should open this up.

[Chris]

See if you like it.

[Dave 1]

How can I see it?

[Chris]

Yeah, actually, we need Zach Zack.

[Eddie]

Zach Zack needs to come check a.

[Chris]

Photo and take a photo so as Zach is taking a photo so that Dave can check the frame. Welcome back to Canal Street Dreams. We have a style icon, a music icon, a downtown New York icon, a guy who I just loved when I, like, first landed in New York. Like, I knew your writing, I knew your music, and I met you outside of Nokia Theater for the first Mobb Deep show.

[Dave 1]

Mob Deep show. Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris]

When Prodigy got out of jail.

[Dave 1]

That's right.

[Chris]

Because you went to go get the tickets that the group had left for you, and you told them you were Dave1. And they're like, do you have identification? I was like, how would you have identification that says Dave 1? And so I brought up your Wikipedia and showed it to the woman at will. Yeah, I showed it to the woman at will. You don't remember? Cuz I just look like I was delivering Chinese food. But I did get your tickets.

[Dave 1]

You delivered my tickets?

[Chris]

I delivered your tickets. Welcome to the show.

[Dave 1]

Thank you.

[Chris]

And thank you for participating in the.

[Dave 1]

No, thanks for having me.

[Chris]

Yeah, Zach, how you want to show them what the frame looks like? Yeah. So for those that have not seen Vice's watch.

[Dave 1]

Don't say. Don't say. But it's the best documentary opening I've ever seen.

[Chris]

Thank you.

[Dave 1]

And I'm. I'm. And I'm. I'm. I watch a lot of documentaries. Yeah. This looks great.

[Eddie]

Approved.

[Dave 1]

I love it.

[Chris]

I love it. We will insert. Zach, please text that to Chris. We will insert the image of the frame.

[Dave 1]

That's gonna be fire.

[Chris]

Dave approves. The show continues. The show continues.

[Dave 1]

The show starts.

[Chris]

Yeah, no, it was. It was really cool, though, because the day the movie came out, I ran into you on the street where we shot the fucking scene.

[Dave 1]

That's crazy.

[Chris]

That's like universe, like.

[Dave 1]

Yeah. You know, whatever day came out. Literally across the street from where we shot it, I run into you, and I don't really go to Dime Square much like that.

[Chris]

No, no, you. I see you in there. I see you in the rod. You at Elbow Room.

[Dave 1]

Oh, my God, I wish I could. I wish I. I want to, but.

[Chris]

Yeah, you were At Dimes, too. Wasn't just in Dimes. It was at Dimes.

[Dave 1]

Oh, yeah. I was at the Mecca Times.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

Ground zero.

[Chris]

Yeah. Zero shout out. 9 11. But yo. No. Do you like the Bulls there you. You in the bowl?

[Dave 1]

Yeah, that's what I had. Okay. Yeah.

[Chris]

Okay. Cool, Cool, cool, cool. So how did you feel about the doc, man?

[Dave 1]

I mean, of. I. I know your sensibility and I know.

[Chris]

How would you explain the sensibility?

[Dave 1]

Your sensibility?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

It'S. Well, you know, you're. You're like me. You have a shtick. It's like. It's like. It's like Chinese Howard Stern.

[Chris]

Yeah, right.

[Dave 1]

Chinese Howard Stern with a sprinkle of funk Master Flex.

[Chris]

Delicious.

[Eddie]

So good.

[Chris]

Delicious.

[Dave 1]

Okay.

[Chris]

See, I would never usually ask people their opinion of me, but you, I'm like, I just.

[Dave 1]

You're cool with it, right?

[Chris]

I love it. Yeah, well, because I was a fan before I met you, you know, I mean, like, that's. That's kind of the cool when you become homies with someone. I'm never embarrassed to be like, I was a fan. You know what I mean? Like, I like to be a fan of my homie.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, yeah, same.

[Chris]

I agree. Funk. Yeah. There's a little, like, lugs driving shoe.

[Dave 1]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris]

In my shoe.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, a little bit. And then. And then. And then. Yeah, some like. Some, like, New York Jew coded, you know, Steve Rifkin coded. And then. And also true to your sort of heritage and your stance on cooking, which we talked about before, and that culture. But it's interesting. So there's a little bit of. It's funny because it's a little bit investigative reportage. It's a little bit conspiracy theory. But what's also. And this is something that I deal with with music all the time, we work on something for years, and one thing we cannot predict is the cultural landscape when our product lands. And I don't want to talk about the movie thing right now. That's not even what I'm talking about. We can talk about it. But we are at a time now where there's a massive resurgence of. In this, like, sort of post woke, you know, sort of nihilistic post woke edgelord moment that we're in. There's a massive resurgence of the Vice sensibility. American Apparel is reopening. You know, American Apparel ads used to be a huge part of Vice magazine. American Apparel stores reopening. Cobra, snakes. Taking the pics. Shout out, that's my homie, too. But we're in a time now. Whereas in 2018, the Times ran a me too piece on Vice. Now you have a lot of kids who are like, toothless.

[Chris]

Me too piece.

[Dave 1]

You know, true.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

And now you're at a time where like, like 20 something kids are like, yo, this is the Bible, right? Because. Because it was that sort of. And, and there's so much nostalgia now about, like early 2000s downtown. You know, kids were posting about. Off White are now posting about, you know, Ryan McGinley. Glad, my friend.

[Chris]

Oh, God, Thank God.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

I'm an incredible photographer. Dash. No, you know, like, go.

[Dave 1]

I mean, I was, I was. Yeah, of course, absolutely. But. But we're in that moment in the cycle. So the documentary lands at a weird time because it's like, all right, you have these kids who are. But I will say we're at a moment of tremendous curiosity about Vice magazine. So it's, it's in a good mo. It's in a good time. And I get people from France hitting me up being like, yo, I just watched it. Like, three people in Paris hit me up. Like, they just watched it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's cool. It's, it's. And for me, it's, it's, you know, as you see in the documentary, it's layered because I have a lot of really, really, really fond memories.

[Chris]

Well, you were also, when it was like a zine project with the homies in Montreal.

[Dave 1]

The homies in Montreal, Correct.

[Chris]

Because there's, there's, there's the difference. It's like, there's the Montreal era, there's the New York era. There's actually, I would say three new New York era.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, I missed out on. I was gone by the last one and a half, I'd say. Yeah.

[Chris]

I think by the time it got to north 10th, like, I think, yeah.

[Dave 1]

I kind of popped in there twice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was on, like, north.

[Chris]

Were you on the label by then? You were on the label, which was kind of like.

[Dave 1]

Which is why I defected a little bit from the magazine. Because I was like, I'm not going to be writing music, music criticism if I'm sign label. It feels weird. Blah, blah, blah, blah. But, but yeah, I saw the shift and yeah, but I didn't know edgelord was back.

[Chris]

Like, I, I, I've been oblivious.

[Dave 1]

Red Scare and all that.

[Chris]

Oh, okay. I kind of like that. It's also like kids now discovering.

[Dave 1]

You like it and you don't like it. Life, like life before you don't like it.

[Eddie]

I think the Pendulum just Swings right from the Me Too era. It's like censorship woke. You're not saying certain things. You're editing yourself, and then it just swings to the pendulum.

[Dave 1]

But with all due respect. With all due respect, compared. And I'm not on Twitter like that, but compared to the sort of ketamine, nihilistic edge Lord moment, your version of provocation provocateur is like, centrist.

[Chris]

Oh, centrist. I don't know where it is. I just know I am a sensitive person. Yeah, I'm, like, very sensitive.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, you don't show that side enough.

[Chris]

Thanks, man. I'm just saying, you know, I should. Right?

[Dave 1]

Am I right?

[Eddie]

Yeah, I think you don't show that side enough. Yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah. I think I'm scared.

[Eddie]

I think in the documentary, you have moments where you do show that you don't. Yeah, you lean into it a bit more.

[Chris]

I've been doing it on the, like, with my. With Natasha here. It's like, oh, I'm comfortable. I can. And like. But I agree with you. I think it's actually the best part of me that I've, like, hid in a corner in a really long time. Yeah, it shows up in the books.

[Dave 1]

Yeah.

[Chris]

It shows up in the food.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, that's. But it doesn't show up, you know, as much when you talk. And I look, I have a million sides of me that people. People, you know, people think I'm super pretentious and Gray poupon and, like, Mr. Aesthetic and all that, and got to check the frame. Yeah. And I play. And the thing is, like. The thing is, like, I play into that. You know, we have to be in on the joke. All our. All our heroes are in on the joke. Me. It's like, if somebody looks at me and is like, who is this guy wearing, like, man heels and tight jeans? Like, who does he think he is and wants to roast me? I'm all in for it.

[Chris]

Yo, I'll tell you, you know, like, I am down. This is how I saw you. Because I came from Orlando, Florida, and I would go to, like, Iconic magazine. I'll go to those magazine shops, and I remember seeing that magazine, Fantastic, man.

[Dave 1]

Okay.

[Chris]

And then coming across you, I was like, oh, you're a fantastic man. Do you know with the stick? The stick was fantastic, man.

[Dave 1]

But you know, that shit's corny when you really take yourself seriously about it. Yeah.

[Chris]

Well, so somebody watched the doc and actually texted me, and they were like, yo, this is Dave. Really serious. I was like, dude, he texted me after watching. He was like, Laughing. He knows this is funny. He knows he was being difficult.

[Dave 1]

Of course not even like check the frame.

[Chris]

Cuz I don't have an ego about it.

[Dave 1]

Same, you know, same. We can't. You're a director.

[Chris]

No, I'm like, I get it. But it's like, dude, have fun.

[Dave 1]

We have to. No, that. But I think it's one of the best moments on camera I've ever had in my life. And I'm so. It's hilarious. Yeah, it's hysterical.

[Chris]

And it's funny. It's in a documentary because the like laws of documentary are like the guest tells you, don't do this. Like you're like in there, you're like, don't use this. Don't start it this way.

[Dave 1]

You have to.

[Chris]

I'm going to start it.

[Dave 1]

It's the best. You did everything right. It's great. It's hysterical. And you know what, it sets a good tone, you know, because the beginning of the dog and the beginning of my, my story with vice and you know, I don't know if we want to talk about it the whole time, but like it was, it was very much centered about humor. Centered around humor and self awareness. Right. And I mean, like I said, like I was just, I was just a student of the work of, you know, rest in power, rest in peace. Sasha Jenkins.

[Chris]

Yeah, right.

[Dave 1]

He taught and, and people like him. But all the guys we mentioned, they're in on the joke. I think that's like something about New York. Right? You have to be self aware and we're all characters, you know what I mean? Characters all the time.

[Chris]

Well, that is the issue with the Internet now is everyone is taking everything so seriously at face value.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, it's a lot.

[Chris]

And it's like, you gotta relax. Like it's not that serious. None of this is worth being this upset about.

[Dave 1]

Well, yeah, I think, I think a lot of people are very, very upset. Permanently. And I think that when you get the psyops done to you of like it's literally the Clockwork Orange thing, right? Where. Where it. And it happens to you around the clock. Because we're addicted to our phones and stuff. I mean, I get it. I sometimes get super, super riled up. And then like I might text a friend, you know, and the guy was like, wait, hi. What? Or you know, people post something on stories and then they get riled. You see it, you get riled up, you DM them and you fight about it. Next thing you know, your morning is ruined. It's nuts. You know, so. So it's. It's. It's easy for us to sit here downtown and, you know, have the same sort of intellectual framework and sensibility and be like, it ain't that deep. But the reality is, after a night of terrible sleep, you know, ibs, you haven't had breakfast yet, you look at your phone and you see something that your friend posted that hurts your feelings. Well, all of a sudden, it is that deep. In that moment.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

Can't control it. But it happens to all of us.

[Chris]

But I will say the downtown New York thing is real. It's like all before the show, we always go to Mixed in and get a coffee and I'll go hang with Roman or I'll go hang with Darren there.

[Dave 1]

Man, I haven't seen Roman in so long.

[Chris]

I love that dude the best. And I'll just talk a little shit, say a little shit about somebody. Usually I'll walk around the corner and see that person I was just talking shit about. I'm like, I love you, man. Of course. Because that's how it is. It's like everybody annoys each other, but we're fam. And that's like, you know, that's a.

[Dave 1]

Beautiful way to say. That's a good way to say it. And it's. It's. I need to remember that, too. Because some people, obviously, I'm sure we all feel this. Like, some people might say some shit where you're like, pro. Shut up. Then you see them and you're like, yeah, I like you. You know, like. And, you know, it's like every time, like, if I get into, like, a little tiff with somebody, like, like, you know, I bump into the wrong guy and it's like, yo, excuse you. And I'm. But five minutes later, inevitably, you become best friends.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

You know what I mean? And that's the best I had that with.

[Chris]

That's actual love. And it's like New York rep. I think New York is a reflection of immigrant families and immigrant culture because immigrant families will yell at each other and be like, cool, cool, cool, cool.

[Dave 1]

Yo, listen, I. So my family. So I'm. I'm half Moroccan. My mom's from Morocco and her family. I guess my family immigrated to Queens, to Forest hills, in the 50s, in the late 50s. So by the time I was a teenager, I would spend all my summers in both Regal park and Forest Hills. And this is kind of like from the ages of 12, 13, 14 on, spend my summers here. So. And sometimes I would bring a friend from Montreal. Most of them were French Canadians and they didn't know Moroccan culture. And I remember one of them was. Was like, yo, Dave, I think we should leave. I was like, why? We just got here, you know, they're fighting, they're screaming at each other. I think. I think we should leave this house now. It's the tent, the climate is tense. And I was like, no one's screaming. Nobody's screaming. And he's like, no, listen, they're yelling. They're shouting at each other. And I'm like, no, they're talking. This is dinner time. We haven't even sat down. They're talking. He's like, that's how they talk to each other. And I was like, yeah. And fast forward to now.

[Chris]

American families don't talk, man.

[Dave 1]

Well, they don't shout the way we do.

[Chris]

They don't shout.

[Eddie]

I remember early on in our relationship, Evan was with us, his brother Evan, and something was going on. I was on the phone with my mom and I was chewing her out. Like, I was laying into her and they were all in the room and I just. From the corner, I could hear Evan say something to you. And he was like, oh, man, she's good. She's just like, us. And I was like, yeah, we all have that same thing where it's like, I will cuss you the fuck out and I will read you down. But then five minutes later, we're like, all right, I love you. I'll see you tomorrow.

[Chris]

Bye.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

We could be ourselves around her. Cuz they saw her. They're like, she's white. I'm like, dude, she's Greek. And they're like, white.

[Dave 1]

It's the Mediterranean. The Mediterranean gives you the whole thing.

[Eddie]

I remember growing up too. My friends would be like, you talk to your mom like that? I was like, you should hear, she talks to me. And then we bounce back.

[Dave 1]

Respect.

[Chris]

You're a boy.

[Eddie]

Girls and their daughters, we.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, no, my mom is God, we cat.

[Chris]

My mom beef with my mom.

[Dave 1]

No, no, my mom's God. She's. She's ironclad. She could. Let's.

[Eddie]

I love that. Let's stick with that. My son. My son is going to st. Are you.

[Chris]

You. You and Alana are cute, though. You guys, like, love your mom. It, like, comes up a lot in your work. Stuff like that.

[Dave 1]

It's awesome. She's gone.

[Chris]

What's dad like? Can I ask about dad?

[Dave 1]

Trot. But I. But yo, my. Well, my relationship.

[Chris]

You got daddy issues.

[Dave 1]

You know, my. My dad. I. I don't Talk about him much, actually. And. And he's a. He's a really interesting dude. He and I. It was tough growing up. There's a lot of fighting. But intellectually, I take after him. My dad's like a Chomsky linguist. He's truly the original Bernie.

[Chris]

Wow.

[Dave 1]

And he was rocking like that when I was 14, 15. So he taught me a lot. And I will say, in terms of values and ideology, the apple really didn't fall far from the tree. I'm really happy to have had him as an ethical and intellectual role model. So shout outs to my pops, too. He might watch this, actually. They watch it.

[Chris]

They troll. No. I was always curious where that interest came from, because I'm like, I'm honestly a corny fan of yours. Like, I remember when you were, like, a professor at Columbia.

[Dave 1]

That's right.

[Chris]

And I would, like, check out the classes you were teaching. Like, I was. Because I was into it. Like, I enjoyed.

[Dave 1]

Thank you.

[Chris]

I'm not an academic, but I enjoy tapping in and being like, how are people with big vocabularies tackling these ideas? Because I'm into ideas.

[Dave 1]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And, like, I would read, like, Greg Tate, like, Everything but the Burden, you know.

[Dave 1]

Come on.

[Chris]

Yeah. I would read h. And I see, you know, like, yeah. You know, and Todd Boyd. Right. So I was into, like, just tapping into the scholarly analysis. And a lot of it started with those ego trip books. Then they're like, Jeff Chang, like, Cancel Out, Won't Stop Greg Tate. And I was in that.

[Dave 1]

And the Big Payback. Let's not forget that one. That's my favorite one.

[Chris]

And that is an era, like, for. For listeners that, like, miss that era of, like, academic analysis of, like, I would call it Black culture in America.

[Dave 1]

Like, that was bre. Is. But, you know, Minia.

[Chris]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Misinfo.

[Dave 1]

Minia is brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

I mean, there's no. Yeah. Min. Minia is the goat. We have to shout her out. Columbia. Columbia School of Journalism. I mean, she's brilliant.

[Chris]

I mean, well, menu miss info. Hot 97 was the first Asian person, not male or female, the first Asian person I saw as an Asian America stick up for Asians. Because when they did the tsunami song on Hot 97 and they were making fun of all the dead Asian people, Minya was like, that's not cool. And I was like, I have never seen an Asian person get loud in America.

[Dave 1]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris]

And like, I always.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, that.

[Chris]

That was a big moment.

[Dave 1]

She's. She's huge. And actually, you know, the. The Missinfo thing was like yenta. And so in a way it didn't reflect but her full range, but you know, her writings in the Source and so on. I mean she, she wrote the Almag.

[Chris]

Remember this? She gave NASDAQ 5 mic review in Illmatic.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, no, she's phenomenal. So, yeah, I mean, I think you and I are very fortunate to have these people as mentors and you know, in our own ways we sort of carried a torch in our respective disciplines and our respective sensibilities. But it definitely comes from that sort of self aware blend of second generation immigrant hip hop culture. Melting pot New York. Having been a herb for X amount of years of your life, thinking you're no longer a herb, but might still be a little bit of herb, but it's okay. That's what keeps us humble. Then you herb yourself, then you play yourself a little bit. You, you, you fall, you know, and then you, you pick up, you start again. Having, you know, being able to make fun of yourself, being able to make fun of others is fair game. You know what I mean?

[Chris]

All that.

[Dave 1]

And I think, and I think and yeah, a little bit of an academic interest in hip hop culture or in music culture in general or, or whatever it is, graffiti and so on, but not too much that you're like a.

[Chris]

Dweeb, you know, it has to, it has to connect on a street level for me, like I'm really trying to like, it's like therapy for me to go read something academic. I'm like, let me pop out of like the granular view I have on the street level and go see it from like 10,000ft up from people in an ivory tower. Because I like perspective. I don't subscribe to one perspective.

[Dave 1]

Tough time for academia right now.

[Chris]

But yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't see much like ill academic. Right. I don't see much ill writing generally.

[Dave 1]

They're all getting defunded and. Yeah, and you know, the.

[Chris]

You still teach?

[Dave 1]

No, no, no, no. I've stopped a long time ago. I stopped in 2012. 2011.

[Chris]

Yeah. See, I was an early fan.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you were up early. I remember you were tweeting at me like 2010, 2011. I'm honored. I mean, it's cool that we're still here and still trying.

[Chris]

Still do.

[Dave 1]

Not to get all schmaltzy but you know, trying to have new, you know, just more contributions and more ways of paying homage.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah. We try to give everyone their flowers right now. I'm not one of those downtown people that's like waiting for the masterpiece. I'm like, no, I'm gonna give it to you along the way. And even in the pandemic, bro, you. I didn't reach out to you, but I was so bummed out. I was, like, living in Taiwan by myself. And when you dropped the quarantine album. Yeah, bro, I ran it.

[Dave 1]

Real estate. I ever wrote real as shit.

[Chris]

And it was exactly what we needed.

[Dave 1]

Thank you.

[Chris]

I was like, we need just, like, fun, like the comedy.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[Chris]

Six feet away.

[Dave 1]

I was just like, oh, yeah, yeah. I'm happy we did that ump.

[Chris]

Like, I, like, needed you to write that.

[Dave 1]

We donated more money off that album than we made by far. We didn't make anything. We donated everything.

[Chris]

Respect, though. You and P. Are always also on the right side of right, you know, like. Yeah.

[Dave 1]

I mean, it's tough, you know, even again, going back to this thing of, like, you know, the right side and not the right side. Even with shit that happened last week or this week and stuff, it's like, I don't know what the right side is, but I think. I think. Not to sound cheesy, but, like, being compassionate with the way different people react across a different spectrum is at least the first step to having an open mind and hopefully constructive conversations.

[Chris]

What we were talking about downtown without getting into the politics, right? Yeah. It's like.

[Dave 1]

Or we can.

[Chris]

Yeah. I think the thing with. With America right now is we really got to embrace we're a family. Like, there's way too many people that, like, you're bad and that guy's bad. I'm like, bro, we live together. This is everybody's shit. We have to figure that out. And if you don't accept that, it's a real problem. Because we should have debate. This is. The democracy is built on an adversarial, democratic system, and we need to have debate. But there has to be a water's edge to, like, how far that should go.

[Dave 1]

Well, that's what I'm saying is that. Is that, like. So I, you know, I'm biased because having, you know, spent now, I spend more time in New York than in Canada, I think. But, like, I did grow up in Canada, and my family is also very French, and I spend a lot of time in Paris and so on. And so in a place like France, right. You have these sort of common principles that are shared by everyone across the aisle, across the spectrum. Right. Free healthcare, free education. That whether you're right wing or left wing, everybody is down with that and then the conversation and the political beefs come on top of that. What do we do about immigration? Are the doors open? Are the doors closed? Are there more cops? Are there less cops? Are the local farmers getting the right subsidies? Or are we going to import more strawberries from Spain? All right, everybody strikes.

[Chris]

Yeah. Argue about that. That's fine.

[Dave 1]

But basic fundamental principles such as free education, free health care, which to me is like the most holy thing on earth, and that's really. That's the hill.

[Chris]

I would throw child care in, too.

[Dave 1]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

Education, yeah.

[Dave 1]

100.

[Chris]

But I agree with what you said.

[Dave 1]

Those are.

[Chris]

That's the foundational.

[Dave 1]

Those are the hills I would like to die on.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

And. And so I think what we're noticing here is that with what you're talking about here is that there's a fragmentation of the sort of baseline common principle principles. And when you cannot agree on baseline common principles, then every debate on top of that seems moot. Yeah, that gets scary. Right?

[Chris]

Yeah. And we were. We were at the restaurant here, and there were. There were a number of people who. And I'm not throwing nobody under the bus because I think every comment right now is valid. Like, that's the thing in America, right? I'm like, everyone's comment valid, just like.

[Dave 1]

But I don't.

[Chris]

But here, I'll say this. They were. There were a lot of people here that were like, but look at what he said. And then he got shot. Like, he was, you know, for second Amendment. He wasn't for gun control. And like, look what happened to him. I was like, I can understand your perspective. But now that someone has been shot and died, I was just like, there has to be an agreement here. I think that that was the wrong way to handle that.

[Dave 1]

Fine.

[Chris]

And it doesn't mean anything. He's correct.

[Dave 1]

Well, no, but I think. I think, you know, in certain what my friends on a very, very progressive side of things will say, forget the Second Amendment. This person said. Racist, hateful thing.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

So what are the guardrails? Right. Not even talking about political violence, just talking about speech. In an era where right now, you know, gloves are off on, you know, Zuckerberg and Twitter decided to take all the gloves off. So there's no more parameters. Right. So it's a total free for all. Is there a place where the line is drawn? And obviously, you know, sometimes you'll have comedians that'll say, you know, sort of like a little provocative comedians, whatever, that'll say, I know, you know, some. That I'm Talking about, they'll say, nah, man, it's comedy. You could say anything. And then when these same people are like, hey, hey, hey, don't say that the day after. I'm like, yo, I thought last week you were Mr. You know, can make fun of anything anytime. So it's just. I think those are the things that people are navigating, and that's what's upsetting a lot of folks, is that, like, wait a minute. Like, I'm not trying to send thoughts and prayers. If the guy said people of a certain ethnicity are inferior, ontologically inferior, I'm.

[Chris]

Like, yo, I'm not going to get thoughts and prayers. But I will say, this is. I was just like, I do not agree with assassination.

[Dave 1]

Like, I don't think anybody.

[Chris]

I mean, you know, there are people on the Internet right now that are like, he deserved it. And I'm like, yo, I just can't go that far. I can understand why you have that feeling.

[Dave 1]

Yeah.

[Chris]

I cannot.

[Dave 1]

Okay, fine. But that's great because. Because I have friends that said what you said, and when I talk to them, and I'm like, I see where that came from, and I know how you feel right now, at least we're on. We're on some form of a plane of understanding. My thing is, like, y' all really want to be saying on this on Mark Zuckerberg's photo sharing apple? Yeah. Like, is this the play? Like, we are on Mark Zuckerberg's photo sharing app. Huh.

[Eddie]

It's very unserious. Like, to have these types of intense debate. And we're, like, on.

[Chris]

Well, yeah, but we're also.

[Dave 1]

I'm also. I have friends that are on green cards or visas where people at the. At immigration are pulling up Instagram stories.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

Like, are we sure? Is this the place? Yeah, I mean, maybe.

[Chris]

Let's talk about. You're a very smart guy. I actually think we could figure some things out here. We. We just spoke about Canadian society.

[Dave 1]

Yeah.

[Chris]

You know, even, like, in China and Taiwan, there's basic things like universal health care. Right. We're going to say universal health care, universal education, child care, baseline. Now, let's talk about language. You know, I know you're very up on semiotics. Yes. I read Frank Berardi. Like, let's.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, that's.

[Chris]

That's. Let's, like, give the people some. Right here. Right. If I were to draw boundaries and draw rules according to, like, John Locke social contract theory. Right. We all give up a little freedom for protection of our limited freedom Right. That's the. That's the. Except we're going to all accept.

[Dave 1]

Very American. But I agree with you.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah. Yes. Not very American for some radical people who cannot read the Constitution. But, yes, I would agree with you. So. But I do think John Locke is kind of. Unless we go back to like, Greek, Plato, Aristotle. I think John Locke is kind of father of modern democracy. Right. Social contract theory will accept, I think, hate speech in a public forum, movie theater, on the street. Right. Unacceptable. Maybe even on the Internet. I think these apps should be policing hate speech, but, like, not in a liberal way, just like in a very directly hate speech. Not like.

[Dave 1]

Okay, but what's hate speech?

[Chris]

Yeah, Like.

[Dave 1]

So then we get into semantics forever.

[Chris]

I agree with you.

[Dave 1]

We get into semantics and we get into comments. Context.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

I was thinking a lot about the Charlie Hebdo scandal from a few years ago, right. Where this was in. Because a lot of this got lost in translation, but somehow it's relevant with what's happening today. And so Charlie Hebdo is this French paper that's extremely.

[Chris]

I remember. And they got shot.

[Dave 1]

Well, yeah. So. So the paper makes fun of everyone and everything in the most shocking way possible. And in French culture, as far as I understand it, it's. First of all, it's an institution, and second of all, it's always been tolerated and actually by. By. By sort of the whole. By every side of. Of of the aisle the same way here. The ACLU as. Correct me if I'm wrong, but ACLU used to, like, protect, like. Yeah, KKK shit, right? Yes, yes.

[Chris]

Free speech is free speech. It's free speech.

[Dave 1]

So. So. So Charlie Hebdo makes. Publishes a caricature where, you know, the prophet Muhammad. I don't know what was going on. I think, like, scandalous shit. And some people got extremely offended, extremely hurt. It also came at a crazy time, and there was a violent response to it. And then it's like, what that does is it tests the limits of free speech in a society that is no longer homogeneous. Yeah, right. That's the other thing is that. Is that. I mean, here, dude, it's not. America is not homogeneous.

[Chris]

It's.

[Dave 1]

It's 51. 51 Canadian. It's 51 little countries sewn together.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

It's not homogeneous.

[Chris]

You're counting Puerto Rico. Yeah.

[Dave 1]

Oh, I love.

[Chris]

Yo, do you mind if I use the restroom? Because this is such a good conversation. I don't want to be like, needing to piss. This is like. No. So I love this. And I wanted to Bring something up.

[Dave 1]

Right, Tell me.

[Chris]

I'm a Cardozo Law School Yeshiva. You trained attorney and those who don't know. For those that don't know, yeah. Cardoza Law, 12th and 5th Ave. I loved it. Like, culturally, I was embedded in the culture. I was the president of my 1L year. It was awesome.

[Dave 1]

Amazing.

[Chris]

It was hard. It was really cool. I brought J. Rude to Damager to come to the school and talk about the Telecommunications act in 1997. Like, I was doing shit at that school.

[Dave 1]

Fun.

[Chris]

Really a good time. But I wanted to use because I A lot of, like, seminal law is created when you have a situation, an issue arises that the field of that law does not have a precedent for. So you borrow from another category and I'm going to borrow from one that you're very familiar with. And I want to, like, ask you about it. Is music parody exception. You know, Uncle Luke has the seminal case in intellectual property law.

[Dave 1]

Okay.

[Chris]

It's. It's the Acuff Rose case. Sony over his, like, Band in America album.

[Dave 1]

Oh, okay.

[Chris]

And he's able to make two Live Crew. Was able to put that album out because of the parody exception. And he created Fair Use before. You could never, like, mix or sample or something like that.

[Dave 1]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Chris]

And the law that arose out of our big homie Uncle Luke is the fair Use parody exception. And I think that is how people should be analyzing speech, hate speech in general.

[Dave 1]

That's very interesting. First of all, I had no idea that you went to yeshiva. Second of all, I barely know the Uncle Luke precedent.

[Chris]

I'm going to send it to you.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, I mean, yes, I haven't thought about Uncle Luke much lately.

[Chris]

But in the case, what they end up saying, I want to ask you up on semiotics is they were like, look, you are able to use Sample and say whatever you want if there is a critique of what that previous work was, if the derivative work is adding and critiquing and, like, doing something. So that's why we can make documentaries. When I do the Vice doc, I have to go through with an attorney. And that's why you voiceover. So if I'm showing Shane, I voice over, I tell a joke, I say a thing. Now I can use anything. And that is how fascinating.

[Dave 1]

I have no idea. That's incredible.

[Chris]

And that's how I think we should approach Hate speech is like, is there a critique? Are you furthering conversation? Is there some comedy that's very liberal, it could go bad, and your brain is going to point out all the flaws.

[Dave 1]

No, I just. I just. I just. It's like the meta discourse required to analyze every instance of hate speech that's on Twitter at every minute, every hour. I don't even think AI can do that. Right. Because it's in. In what's. Also, what's. To take it back to, like, linguistics and stuff. There's a. A distinction in linguistics, in the study of irony between use and mention. So when you use something, you're really saying it. When you mention it, you're quoting it, but you're not quoting it explicitly because we're talking. Right. So if you're talking right now, and I'm like, oh, totally, Eddie. Yas Queen. Yas Queen. I'm mentioning it. Right. But somebody out of context might be like, bro, Dave was saying Yas Queen to Eddie. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. I was Yas Queen. But when. When you say it verbally because of the difference in tone and, like, facial expressions and body language, you know, I'm. I'm mentioning it, AKA quoting it, AKA making fun of it, AKA you know, whatever. So let's take it to, like. And I'm like, yeah, I mean, you know, Eddie, you know, we sit here and think about 9, 11, and I mean, listen, between you and me, we know that it's just Jewish space lasers, obviously, that, you know, caused it. I am mentioning it. I'm not using it. Right. Taking out of context or cut to what I'm saying now and put that on TikTok or on stories without context, we're all screwed. Right? So I think that the. The distinction between mentioning something, which means like, reappropriating another discourse in order to make fun of it or criticize it and using it gets lost in today's social media landscape where all you get is fragments and you get them so fast and so much.

[Chris]

Yes. And this is where I'm going to propose something is the 90s, rap music forced Americans to address race and identity, and a lot of discourse rose up and people became much more knowledgeable about race and identity because of rap music. Then me too. 2016, everyone became significantly more knowledgeable about feminism, LGBTQ issues and rights, workplace discrimination. I think the Internet, TikTok, Instagram talking is really needs to force. The next thing people need to pick up is semiotics. Because if people have an understanding of semiotics.

[Dave 1]

Absolutely.

[Chris]

They will not be so upset.

[Dave 1]

Yes, absolutely. And. And yes, absolutely. I can. I don't want to get too deep into this, but, you know, a great example as it pertains to my culture is the word Zionist. All right? The word Zionist, whether my woke mind virus friends agree with it or not. By the way, that was mentioned. That was in use. I said woke mind virus. That was mentioned. I'm making a joke, right? I'm not really saying it. So that's the difference, whether they agree.

[Chris]

Wonderful example, Professor.

[Dave 1]

Whether they agree with it or not, that term, the semiotics of that term are very complicated, and they're layered even within Jewish culture. So when you have somebody that says, you know, all Zionists kill all Zionists. Zionists not welcome here. What that person. The semiotics of the word are so layered because not only the semantics, but the semiotics meaning what that word connotates, not what it means in the dictionary, the associations that come with it, which. So it's another layer of, like, sort of symbolic definitions and symbolic associations. Right? All that stuff is so layered that some people will get offended and other people will be like, dude, I just said that. Pro apartheid violence, setter colonialists. I don't want to talk to them. What's offensive about that? And then the other person might read it and be like, oh, no, man. Like, my mom always used that term in a way of just talking about, you know, her great grandparents who were there, by the way, from even before 1948 and came from Syria. And I don't like that.

[Chris]

Shit's really fucked up. We look at our comments section every week, and it's because everyone has a different level of understanding of semiotics and language right now, and we cannot communicate. Like, every week on the pod, we kind of have to be like, wait. Explaining things in the comments section to people. Like, Zionism came up on an episode with Varna, and I took the stance. I said, look, I am very free Palestine, free Gaza. I am not for anything going on there right now. I. But I understand the need. I understand the desire for a people. Let's not even say Jewish or Israeli. I understand desire for a group of people to have a home.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, you're gonna get fired on.

[Chris]

I don't even want to go get fired.

[Dave 1]

You're gonna get destroyed on all sides. Yeah. And by the way.

[Chris]

But as someone who understands language, you can understand what I'm saying. And I'm actually not contradicting myself, but I issued an apology because I was.

[Dave 1]

You don't need to, you know, like, I don't think you need to issue an apology.

[Chris]

I think makes sense, right?

[Dave 1]

I think you. I don't think you need to issue an apology. I think, I think you need. We need to issue more conversations in which you explain what you meant to a different and, and to different audiences. And I'm. And, and by the way, like, you know, I thought it was corny when, when homeboy said globalize the intifada, right? When, when Zoran said that. But I know what he meant and I understand what he meant again, like, this whole thing. But I also know. Understand what the semiotic implications of that word hold for different, what we call interpretive communities, which means, like a group of people who share the same understanding of a word. You know what I mean? Like, for instance, you and I, the three of us, we know what, when RZA said a swords. We know what he means. But my mom might be like, why is he talking about swords? Is he like a, you know what I mean? Is he like a fencing champion? No, mom, swords. Swords means a bar. What's a bar? All right, do you have, do you have two hours? You know what I mean? So different communities understand language, little language nuggets in different, in, in ways that are different, but within the community, it's automatic. We get it. Right. So point is, when he said that his audience and people who share the same intellectual framework understand what he meant and were like, no doubt. And then other people were like, what are you talking about, you psycho terrorist? And I think all you need to do is sit down and be like, well, this is what I meant. And then even if somebody goes like, well, I was offended by that. And it's like, all right, let's talk about it. And let's, let's discuss. And sooner or later we're going to find that we have common ground.

[Chris]

We will.

[Dave 1]

Unless you're really a psycho, hateful extremist, in which case, well, let's. I don't want to talk to you.

[Eddie]

Well, that's the thing just to go back to speaking to how most countries have something that unifies them. We just lack that. And I think it's, it's truly because we can't have certain conversations. And what you're saying, there is things that separate us because it's a huge. It's all small little countries and that divides us because people understand things differently and they communicate differently. And that's. We're unable to have that unified, to.

[Dave 1]

See those, those underlying value systems. And again, like, I'm like, you know, I, I moved here in my early 20s. You know, now I'm in my. I'm a lot older than that. And I was this kid from Canada who had, who believed in, like, blind trust of the government. You know, the state has your back. Obviously, they paid for your school, and they're the reason why you can go and have a baby for no do, for $0 and even have therapy for these. These people have our backs. What are you talking about? If they tell you, get a vaccine. Get a vaccine, they have your back. This is your boy. You know what I mean?

[Chris]

Yeah. And I think one of the things I wanted to mention. Ask you. Well, yeah, ask you about and talk to you about is because we know Gavin McGinnis, right. And I went to go talk to him on the dock, and, and when I screened the doc, there were a couple people who were just like, you never should have saw him. You never should have platformed him.

[Dave 1]

And I was like, you're doing a doc on Vice. How can you not have him in the dock? That's crazy.

[Chris]

He created, he created the voice. He created the voice.

[Dave 1]

He wrote the do's and don'ts. You have to have him.

[Chris]

You have to. It's. And you cannot erase things. Right?

[Dave 1]

And, and not if you're doing a Vice documentary.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

Would be crazy not to have.

[Chris]

And I was like, there is a real difference, my friend, between accepting someone's point of view and understanding or understanding where it comes from. Because when Gavin talks to you, you have a few options. You can hate it and you can get angry. You could agree with it, you could accept it, or you could simply understand it.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, I, I, I, I, I haven't spoken to him in a while, and I'm not familiar with his latest discourse, but I think as a blanket statement, I would say that I hate it and fundamentally disagree with it, and it scares me. But you're doing a documentary, and you have to kind of give a. It's almost like a psychological portrait of the guy, you know? And I, and, and that's it. Full stop. So you have to have him.

[Chris]

Yeah. And I was like, look, I hate it. I disagree. Like, I mean, he asks if I speak Chinese in there, you know, like, when I get there, he asked if I speak. He's attacking me. But I'm like, I'm gonna choose not to engage, I'm gonna choose not to fight. I, I chose to understand where it comes from. I tried to understand. I don't know if that's very.

[Dave 1]

It's very generous of you to do that.

[Chris]

And I'm. But what I. Semiotically, what I find interesting is the general public has trouble discerning between acceptance and understanding. You can understand and disagree. You can.

[Dave 1]

Some stuff is tough to understand.

[Chris]

Yeah. You can accept and not understand.

[Dave 1]

If somebody, if somebody promotes violence or talks racist, hateful rhetoric. I have a lot of trouble understanding that. That's where my, that's where my Kumbaya compassion that I've, you know, that I'm known for. That's where there's a crack in it. I have trouble with that. I really have trouble when, when we're going to hate speech, racism, you know, and even I don't accept, you know.

[Chris]

But, you know, the difference between accepting and understand. Like I like, for instance, Jared Taylor, the white guy I interviewed, the white nationalist. I took him to eat pecking duck and he ended up telling me I voted for Donald Trump for one reason, because Donald Trump is going to stop the dispossession of whites. I completely disagree with that. That to me is hateful, ignorant speech.

[Dave 1]

Yeah.

[Chris]

But I, Yeah, I choose to understand where it comes from. From a confused white guy who thinks he built this country and thinks his ancestors are entitled to it, despite the history of Native Americans. I think you're in.

[Dave 1]

I would add another layer, if I may.

[Chris]

Please.

[Dave 1]

There's also a classist layer to that, that if it's, if it's millionaire, you know, Robert Mercer type millionaire, Ivy League educated, you know, sort of hate speech platform funding, who talks about the great replacement theory. I don't want to be anywhere near that. Don't even put me any. I, I don't. That's a paradigm I don't share.

[Chris]

I really dislike these people.

[Dave 1]

No, but it's. That's, that's an understatement. However, if it's an uneducated auto worker in Michigan who's losing their job because the plant is now, you know, getting moved somewhere else, doesn't have a very high level of education and talks that kind of shit, I would sit down with them.

[Chris]

You should sit down with them because you could prevent them killing Vincent Chin. Remember?

[Dave 1]

Yeah, they killed Vincent Chin over that factor in there.

[Eddie]

I would agree with that.

[Dave 1]

Class and education. And also people who don't have education in this country very often are from a different social class that is not even well served by the people from.

[Chris]

A higher social class. And educated, like Jared Taylor was a professor. Yale, graduated from Yale. That is like ninth level of hell, Dante's Inferno. Because you're using intellectual fraudulently.

[Eddie]

Yeah. You're preying on people who are, who don't understand the context of what you're saying. And you're you're basically indoctrinating a group of people into your belief that you. It's just. It's up. You're praying.

[Chris]

Look at every religion. Dante's Inferno derived from Christianity, Right? You can look at 5 percenters, the. The 10 that have the knowledge and lead people astray. Every single religion and society villainizes and tells you growing up, the people who have privilege and have intelligence and use it to fraudulently lead people astray that do not have that privilege and do not have that resource.

[Dave 1]

It's a power. It's an abuse of power.

[Chris]

It's an abuse. It is the greatest sin. It is the biggest sin. And I will agree. But now I have another question is how do we engage them? Because I'm choosing to understand and not fight. I'm trying to do the Bruce Lee B water shit and be like, say it to my face. I'm not gonna get mad. I'm gonna rol you. Because my theory is, is that if we do not engage, then we can return to that period in the 70s, 80s, and 90s post.

[Dave 1]

What you mean?

[Chris]

You know, Jim Crow, where we were like, yo, you guys were just crazy. Yeah, because right now we're engaging them, and it's giving them power.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, yeah, no, I know what you mean. It's like the 70s, 80s, 90s weren't like the. The. The well, peak. Howard Stern, Andrew Dice Claire were like, everything. Everything goes. And it feels like the temperature was a lot lower. Listen, I was looking at. At. I was looking at Borat on Conan, and I was like, this would never fly today. And it's the funniest thing on earth. I was like, half of this would never fly. And I. It's unfortunate because we're a fearful society now.

[Chris]

It's like when I'm in the kitchen, my. My bad.

[Dave 1]

Oh, oh, oh, I'm sorry. Sorry. One thing on that note, you should watch the. Errol Morris. I believe his name is the guy who did Greatest.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave 1]

His documentary with Steve Bannon.

[Chris]

Oh, yeah, yeah. That came out two years ago.

[Dave 1]

Even more, I want to say, and there's massive controversy around. But talk about sitting down with someone whose ideology terrifies me, who is absolutely, objectively brilliant and having a conversation. What I will say is, if you want to do that, I. You got to really be a pro. You got to be. This is. Don't try this at home.

[Chris]

Yeah, I got to be doing this. I'll tell you, I love him. He's one of my biggest. Him and Frederick Weissman, two greatest Documentaries in all time. But my. In my career, what I've been trying to do is go sit next to a monster like Jared Taylor. I met the Forza Nova white nationalists in Sicily. And instead of like a lot of other people advice that were just like, haha, look, I'm here and it's dangerous. I was like, like, it's not dangerous. This guy's not scary. This guy's scared of you. That. Because where these ideologies come out, white supremacy, these things, they're scared of their dispossession. And if we return the favor and we're scared of them, like, they're not really that powerful. Trump. And a lot of the kind of reaction to MeToo and the reaction to a lot of these things is what brought on this wave because they started to be like, we could lose this country.

[Dave 1]

Right.

[Chris]

And then now we're like, wait, we could lose this country. But if you remove the fear, it's not.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, I mean, we should remove the fear and get.

[Chris]

Can I give one analogy? Otherwise my thing is going to sound.

[Dave 1]

No, no, please.

[Chris]

Yeah, because. So when we started this problem, I had not cooked professionally in about five years. I was really nervous getting back in the kitchen. And any little thing that happened, I'd be like, wait, because that happened, then this could happen. This could happen and I'm going to fail. And I would bug out and I would, like, yell or something. And one of the cooks and Natasha was like, yo, Eddie, you're, like, going to be okay. And I was like, really? Are you sure? I was like, because I don't think so. Like. Because look, it's like a Rube Goldberg. If this goes wrong, the next. And. And they're just like, well, why don't you just see what happens? And from June to July to August, I realized the sky wasn't going to fall. And so then I stopped reacting as much like the H Vac breaking down. A delivery, not coming on time, a cook, like, coming in late. And then I was just like, it's not a boogeyman. And I know this is very difficult to analogize my career in a kitchen and life in a kitchen to like.

[Dave 1]

This, but yeah, with. With sitting at a table with racist fascist hate mongers. I don't know if I'm there.

[Chris]

Yeah. And it's okay.

[Dave 1]

But the way Errol Morris does it is pretty impressive. And. And there's something to learn from that. And look, at one point we're gonna have to dis. I mean, I think there's gonna have to Be boundaries on things that are acceptable to say and things that are not acceptable to say and within the boundaries of acceptability, which should be pretty wide in a country that's founded on radical freedom. We're gonna have to be able to sit down and talk together.

[Chris]

We need people to talk about it that aren't worried about virtue signaling or like how they'll be like, you got to be honest.

[Dave 1]

And a conversation with someone you disagree with in theory is way more interesting and enlightening than a conversation where you're just sort of in the same echo chamber. I don't like conversations in the same echo chamber. You know, it's not very stimulating if you fall upon someone who's. Who really has sort of different points of view, to put it lightly, but who's eloquent, intelligent, cultured and articulate. And articulate. At least it makes for a very, very stimulating exchange. Or it can make for that. We need more of those, right? What was I going to say? I forgot. What. When they.

[Chris]

This conversation is like when we hang out at Natasha's house and the Greek old timers are talking about history. This is what we don't have anymore.

[Eddie]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, we talk about it often. We're like, they just sit around and they're talking philosophy and history and I just. That's not the standard anymore.

[Dave 1]

And okay, so we're all second generation immigrants, right? And so we've all experienced the grandfather saying like scandalously racist shit, by the way. Have you?

[Chris]

I have, absolutely.

[Dave 1]

And, and so, but again, that's like, by the way, when you talk about Conte. Not semiotics so much as context. Right. When my grandfather says it, it's more like, oh boy. I mean, rest in peace, I, I love it. But you know, he'd say some and it'd be like, okay, grandpa, that's right. And then when someone who's a 25 year old streamer with a massive audience, someone who knows the Internet, knows the current state of culture, is educated or at least well versed in social media and in. Yeah, and when he says something else, when he says something else, the same thing, then it's like, bro, it's different. But yeah, so semiotics, semantics, context. The thing is, the problem with that, or my fear with that, is that everybody uses the word discourse, but what we're talking right now is the need for a meta discourse, which is a discourse on the discourse to say, wait, this word means something different for different communities. Wait, I use this word or this political slogan, but it doesn't mean that. Wait, well, actually, no. This person. There's no excuse for saying, you know, this blatantly racist, hateful thing that you don't contextualize. That shit's fucked up and it's unacceptable, yo. That means a whole other layer of discourse on top of another saturated discourse. I don't know what that looks like. It's scary.

[Chris]

Yeah. Because besides, like, privilege and education and knowledge and truth and honesty in a discourse, you actually really need vulnerability. Because, like, no, it. No one is correct from the first thing that comes out of them. Like today here, like, there's multiple times where I was like, ed's word is back. Cool. Because in my mind, I'm like, oh, cool. Like, people are just gonna, like, act out again, right? But you're like, no, actually, Eddie, there's some issues with that. I'm like, oh, you're right.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, but you're right too. You know, we need to loosen the belt and a certain kind of irreverence and also a sensibility that defined all of us growing up. A profound provocateur sensibility. We welcome it because it's like, oh, finally. I could say this. Everybody can chill.

[Chris]

Everything's recorded now. So people are just so scared from a young age to be incorrect. And I'm like, it takes a while to become the person that you're meant to be. It takes a while, man.

[Dave 1]

Yeah. Yeah. And that's. That's another thing to. To take it back to New York. I think, you know, you move. Well, some of us move here from somewhere else, and it becomes this, you know, character building experience.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

And. And I love that. I love the character building experience. I'll never forget the first I. I look back at, you know, my first attempt at certain outfits when I was trying to fit into a certain. I was like, boy, you sucked. Or the first time somebody bumped into me on the train and said, excuse you. And, like, how I felt when that.

[Chris]

Happened, bro, I bought collection. Silk shirt with the tiger.

[Dave 1]

Oh, that was peace. Oh, dope. Yeah, that was good. That was actually really good. Wow. I didn't know you weren't deep.

[Chris]

Like, I was, like, ahead. You know, if I like something I really like, I love that.

[Dave 1]

I'm honored. It's great. I'm happy that that stuff doesn't. Didn't go fully unnoticed. It's funny too, that, like, because you're. You're. What you did. I don't. Doesn't predate the Internet. But you were an Internet. If now we're in I don't know what 3.0 or 2.0. But you, you started in another intern. There is, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, a degree of erasure of your early body of work.

[Chris]

Yeah, right, yeah, absolutely.

[Dave 1]

And that's also interesting. So I started Chromeo in 2004. So like there's a bunch of stuff we did that I can't even. It's not even online, it's not even archived. And like, I feel like some, A lot of your early stuff.

[Chris]

Yeah, like the, the.

[Dave 1]

The sort of Bauhaus era stuff.

[Chris]

Yeah. Blog spot, things like that.

[Dave 1]

It's gone.

[Chris]

Yeah. And like Village Voice articles died. They're in a graveyard, you know. Yeah. A lot of it is like gone.

[Dave 1]

And, and that's crazy.

[Eddie]

But even Wong's World, like you can't stream it right now.

[Chris]

None of the Wong's World episodes are available, which is crazy. I have four years of work not on the Internet.

[Dave 1]

And yet we're in the most Internet. We're in the most Internet moment of our. Of anybody's life.

[Chris]

But you know what's crazy? I own it now. So I may re release them on. That's what I should do.

[Eddie]

You can do whatever you want.

[Chris]

Do it on subs. You know what I forgot about. You know what? We should re release it.

[Dave 1]

I'm just saying, like, like it's funny that we are in this sort of social media saturated landscape and yes, so much stuff has disappeared. And at the same time, I think now with a younger generation, there's a thirst to, for. There's a thirst to rediscover these sort of relics of early Internet days. Like, there's so many accounts that just like unearth, you know, deep YouTube.

[Chris]

We just talked about Man Repeller the other day. I was like, Man Repeller was the ill. Yes. You know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dave 1]

And at one point she got canceled and then she got.

[Chris]

What did she do?

[Dave 1]

But who knows?

[Chris]

But yeah, I liked.

[Dave 1]

She got soft.

[Eddie]

She's great. Yeah, yeah.

[Dave 1]

But it was a moment. And that's going to come back. I mean, I mean, we see, you know, whether the TV show Girls came back, all that stuff came back.

[Chris]

But Jezebel was back in the news this week, you know, for real. Jezebel? Yeah, it was just to not get back in.

[Eddie]

It was a great article.

[Chris]

But before I forget, there was two other things, so we don't forget. I want to talk to you about this skill. But more than that, we're both parents and a lot of our friends are parents.

[Dave 1]

I'm not a parent.

[Chris]

No, we were parents. But are you parents of the same independently?

[Eddie]

No, we are the same person.

[Chris]

Wow. Yeah.

[Dave 1]

And no, so, so there was a little Maury segment.

[Chris]

No, so I was gonna say is, yeah, of course we know he looks just like you. Yeah. But like, no, what I was gonna say is just like, like I always see you and Alon as like a unit. Right. And like a lot of me and my friends, we've had our first kid and we're all like contemplating second kid and we're just like, I feel like the kid needs the homie. Like what you.

[Dave 1]

I would. Yeah. Yes. But see, even this is so crazy, right? Because I'm going to start talking about the importance of having two kids and somebody be like, yo, you're so JD vans coded right now.

[Chris]

No, no, no, yo, yo, forget that. I want to talk.

[Dave 1]

What we're saying is that everything is coded. By the way, COD coded is semiotic. Everything is coded. JD van coded. And talk about the importance of having another brother. Two kid minimum family.

[Chris]

No, I, I, I. Cuz your relationship is beautiful.

[Dave 1]

Thank you. And it, it actually got a lot better. We used to fight a lot and we never fight anymore, but you know, yeah, I'm really, really lucky. My brother is my life partner, my best friend, my consigliere, and vice versa. And it's, it's so going back to my mom's Moroccan family. She, she said, and I don't know if I'm sure you guys will relate, she said that in her family and in her culture, you have to have a lot of kids because it's an insurance policy. And the mentality was if you have four, inevitably one will take care of you. When you get old, three of them will go out and become. But one of them, the schmuck of the family, will stay in the same city and will take care of you and cook for you when you're old. So nobody puts you in a home. God forbid you get put in a home. And you know, but there isn't a.

[Chris]

Schmuck in your family.

[Dave 1]

That's the problem. And so we're both. Yeah, there's no. So maybe there should have been more kids. I don't know. But, but, but yeah, my brother and.

[Chris]

I, she's short of schmuck.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, she, we're so, we're extremely close. And yeah, I, I love the idea of, you know, the sort of kinship with a sibling. And what was great about my relationship with Alain is that we discovered the same. We fell in Love with the same culture musically at. At the same time. He was very young.

[Chris]

He gives you a lot of credit.

[Dave 1]

It. Yeah, he. Yeah, and it's. It's due, but he was the one who stayed in practice for six hours every day coming home from school. So it's mutual. And my brother is very, very sort of like, he gets along with a lot of people. He. He has tremendous, you know, relationships, and the mutual respect is beautiful. He gives me credit. And we just. We work together. But, yeah, like, you know, I. The story is a little bit schmalzy, but basically, P. My partner in Chromio had Wild Style on a VHS tape, and we popped it in, you know, my parents basement. And then I saw all these kids who were beatboxing and. And, you know, like, rapping. And so I'm Desi Des. Rest in Peace, Case Lee. Was that in Wild Style or Star Wars? I forget. Anyways, those. Those videos. And I was like, there's so many kids, you know, because I thought rappers, Nas and Prodigy, they were older than me. But I'm like, yo, when you look at these, these. These 80s documentaries, it's children everywhere. I look at my brother and I'm like this kid in a turtleneck and sorrel boots. Sorrel snow boots and a turtleneck who's like, practicing piano. I'm like, bro, what if this guy was like a younger Beastie Boy? It would be insane. I just had the vision. I would be. How crazy was it like, you know, sort of like a Jewish kid from Montreal with humble origins, you know, son of a translator and a linguist who worked for the government, becomes like a. A dj. That would be crazy. And I just remember. And. And I was like, what do you think? And he was like, wow, I'll try and like, he had a knack for it. I was like, this is what we're gonna do. And, yeah, took it from there.

[Chris]

It's. In a funny way, it was almost like you're like the brand manager, director of. Of his craft. And then he became the master. Like, I mean, bro, I remember watching his dmc and I was just like, oh, my.

[Dave 1]

He took a liking to it. You know, he really took a liking to it. And. And he had terrific mentors in Montreal. Shout to all those Montreal DJs who took him under their wing. But he was just like a diligent, you know, kind of soldier. And. And at the same time, I was writing graffiti a little bit in Montreal, but the same mentality applied. And I always say this, you know, the first few years, you're going to suck. You, you know you're going to suck. You keep your head down, you keep practicing. One day you'll stop sucking. And until then, keep your head down. Practice. Show respect to your elders. Be grateful. For what? The people, I'm sure. Same works in the culinary arts, by the way. Right. Must be the same apprenticeship. You suck until you don't. It's going to be five years usually of where you're not great. You keep your head down, you keep practicing diligently, pay homage, pay tribute to the greats. And one day the best feeling will be when they give you an accolade.

[Chris]

Yeah, that's it. Hearing you talk, I'm like, you gotta have kids. Do you want to have kids?

[Dave 1]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah. Well, you get this is. It's the best, man. It's the best because you're passing this on to everyone else. And it's like you, you gotta have a seed. Like, I can't wait to like watch you do family. Like, it's really.

[Dave 1]

I've got children already that I love so much. So, yeah, no, I want to, but, you know, it's. It was it really. I'm lucky because that, you know, talking about hip hop and stuff a lot for me, more than, you know, the five elements or the four elements. I don't know if we count beatboxing or not anymore.

[Chris]

Yeah, maybe not, maybe not.

[Dave 1]

But for me it was more like a set of ethics. It was the dude that was rolling.

[Chris]

With the roots that had. If only, yeah. That he was the illest one.

[Dave 1]

It was a set of ethics. It was a way to come up and build character and learn a craft. That's really what it was for me. Maybe it could have been anything. It could have been learning how to play the spoons.

[Chris]

But watching rap was like kung fu to me. Like, that's how they taught us kung fu.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, like, you know, you keep your head down, you're going to be a toy for a minute. It's okay. Find a mentor. Learn from your mentor. And even when you, even when you're nice, don't take yourself too seriously because there's always a young kid that's going to be nicer than you. And on the come up, don't sun them, embrace them, teach them, Be the mentor to them because they'll keep you fresh. You know what I'm saying? Like, I had an amazing conversation with a kid who's 20 years younger than me, and that was like a couple weeks ago or last week, and we were Friendly. We're, like, tight, and we have dinner and coffees or whatever. And he was like, yeah, you're old, but you don't act old. And I thought he was. I thought he was gonna say. I thought he was gonna say, like, because I'm. You know, I made a. IBS joke, and I just goof around. He was like, nah, because you don't talk down to me. And I was like, that's one of the kindest things. That's the best thing anyone's ever said to me in a long time. I don't talk down to him, Even though he's 20 years younger than me. Because I learned from this dude. I learned from these kids all the time. Time. And I think that's what keeps you fresh.

[Chris]

Old people old is insecurity. Because out of insecurity with kids, they talk down or they'd be like, yo. In my day, it's like, yo, if you just be you, like, you're gonna stay fresh.

[Dave 1]

Like, we learn from people, you know, I'll never forget, like, my brother was. My brother was one of the first people to put on Cash Cobain at a. At a. At a show. A fool's gold show, you know, because that's one of the things we own and we do together and so on. And. And I was like, what's the deal with this guy? He's so talented. He's flies on the radio. And my brother was like, you know, this kid is. He's based. He's. And he was like, what fascinates me is more the way he sees the world and the way he understands the universe and the way he understands music. And I was like, what do you mean? Like, what's his mind like? And my brother was like, man, it's like an ill video game console. And that seems so far from what we talk about, but it's like, oh, I want to learn from that. It's fascinating to me. Really fascinating to me.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

And I love embracing that. I think that's. That's. It's. It's our duty as older people, as we get older and as we become sort of like, potentially mentors or, you know, ambassadors or something. I mean, you. You told me about what your upcoming plans are. We have to. I don't know if it's revealable here, but. But I was like, yo, a lot of people, you're going to have people who came up on you that are going to come, that are like your stands, your seeds, and you're going to have to embrace them. And by the way, some of them got on and might be popping and you might not even love what they do, but you got to be the gracious guy who encourages them and who, and who, you know, they might be in their toy years. You know, they might be in the five year tour toy purgatory. You just got to be nice with them. Right? That's, do you, do you see what I'm saying?

[Chris]

Yo, I agree. It's an evolution.

[Eddie]

Totally. And you are that way. You're always kind of, you always have someone young around that you're mentoring.

[Dave 1]

She thinks the world of you.

[Eddie]

Yeah, but he does, he's, he's great like that. Like, there's always a young kid that you take under your wing.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, because somebody probably took us on their death when we. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and, and P and I had it tough because. Not tough, but in some respects it was like, when we started Chromeo, we didn't really have, like, it's not like, you know, the Chemical Brothers were like, oh, I like what you're doing. Come visit the studio. So we kind of had to figure it out on our own a little bit, and we didn't. We could have used. It would have been nice. But so now we make it a point to do it with like a younger crop of musicians and we really just like, come to the studio, you know, I love, love doing that because I learned they've got the wave, yo.

[Chris]

And also I, I just get a lot, I, I, I think everyone gets a lot out of, like, sharing knowledge. Right? So in every phase of my life, I've had the younger homie. And what's interesting is it always lasts two or three years. And one day I just realize my knowledge and my presence is no longer beneficial. And I will just openly let them know, I love you forever. I'm gonna remove myself from your life.

[Dave 1]

That's hard. I mean, that's beautiful. That's like the ultimate sign of humility. But like, a word I like to use a lot is like the concept of transmission, you know? So it's like this sort of sharing of knowledge, sharing of codes, sharing of, of even skills, but also value. A value system. Again, by the way, values. What a word that's like MAGA coded now. Like, like we're talking about. It's like, it's so crazy because again, like, if, if you took sound bites out of context and you was like, like, like, all right, these guys are talking about values. They're talking about family. And sitting down with Gavin McInnes.

[Eddie]

All of a sudden. Yeah.

[Chris]

The idea that you could privatize language is such a goofy idea. Do you know what I mean? Like, the privatization, the colonization of language is a very, very American, like, funny thing. Like language has always just been this thing that evolves and it moves and like language that the, the like the timeline of language is like, I mean, insane to, to follow it. Yeah, but I wanted to ask you Disco, because I'm like in the disco, but I'm not like deep like you. How did, how did you come around to it?

[Dave 1]

I'm more me. It's more funk, to be honest.

[Chris]

Yeah, fair, fair.

[Dave 1]

And, and. Well, let's see. I was into hip hop and we were really into digging for samples and so we would buy old records. We'd go to like the, you know, sort of vintage record stores in Montreal and just buy records. And I remember the Prince Paul said something about record digging. He'd say, I just look for the biggest Afro or the most Afros on an album cover. And I know it's going to be dope. And we used to do that too. We'd be like, yo, these guys, I don't know, what are they? Wind, Fire, Earth, Wind and Fire. Yo, they're wearing space suits and they've got like the Ill Jheri curls. This guy's wearing a silver spacesuit. This has got to be good. And you know, because our parents are both immigrants. Peas from Lebanon. My parents were listening to like my dad was listening to Bob Dylan. My mom was listening to like French music and so on or like Arabic music. Arabic music. So we weren't playing. We didn't have the cookout. We didn't have Gap Band at home on the cookout. We didn't have that.

[Chris]

Your first time I heard Gap Band drop the bomb on me. I remember my mom was buying clothes at Bloomingdale's and I was in the dressing room and I was like, like, what is this? And like I remember because that record is so hard.

[Dave 1]

Crazy. Yeah.

[Chris]

Like as an 8 year old, I remember being in Bloomingdale, I was like, oh my God.

[Dave 1]

But see, I was like 17 when I heard this for the first time. Yeah, you know. No, it wasn't, it was, it was in the trenches of, of French Canada. Like I, you know, there was nowhere. It wasn't even playing on the radio. So. Yeah, so through hip hop we started collecting old records and then, and then, you know, with west coast hip hop we started learned about funk and we really took a liking to it. And at the same Time it's like there was a modern funk and modern disco like Jamiroquai that was popping. So that sort of. I was like, well, this is kind of current and fun and whatever. The movie La N was coming out and there's an amazing scene with more bounce to the ounce and they're break dancing. So that music felt actually coming current to us and so we really took a liking to it. But it, it, you know, it was coexistent with listening to Mobb Deep and we'd listen to like Zap and we'd listen to, you know, a Shade record and we'd listen to a Beastie Boys record and then we listened to a Tribe record and we listened to Bob James record. It was all the same, it was all coexistent. And P always, you know, he, he would like. We'd both just collect records and he used to love. He loved the samples more than the hip hop version versions. I kind of love the hip hop versions more. But we just had that, you know, we're besties. We were like the stepbrothers, always have been. We're truly like a mix between Wayne's World, Spinal Tap, stepbrothers and like Borat and the Big dude, you know, Azimat. We're like a mix between all those iconic duos. So. So yeah, we just, we kind of learned about that music together, discovered it together and you know, when you're in my generation, I guess, quote unquote, but I think it applies to kids nowadays too. You start playing guitar, you start, you know, playing like Stairway to Heaven and Hendrix. And then when you discover funk and soul music, it's a whole different way of approaching your instrument. So you have to unlearn everything. You have to unlearn all the shredding and relearn like Pocket and stuff like that, which was very interesting for us to relearn. And we just fell in love with the music and that, that's. And then last chapter to my story. We're in the Fast forward to the early 2000s as I'm starting to do Chromeo and there's a massive 80s comeback again. Vice magazine golden era. And people like Fisher Spooner and LCD and you know, all these amazing, amazing bands, a lot of them from New York are referencing 80s music and doing it in this incredible inspired punk, irreverent, you know, cocaine fueled way fashion and all that. But then P and I sit back and we're like, well, the 80s they're referencing. That's not our 80s. Human League is Cool. But I think Rick James is a lot smarter and more brilliant. So we were like there's a huge gap in the 80s that is back in zeitgeist and all the Jheri curl we prefer because we learned it from Dre and Snoop. No one's referencing this. So it was wide open and we could just. That that was our. That was our North Star. And we started with that. And you know, you can get into it politically where you know, I think if you interview a garden variety say, you know, old school British journalist, he thinks that Brian Eno is more brilliant than Larry Blackman from Cameo. I disagree respectfully. I love my Rick James is my Larry black ones like my James and Toomey's my Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. Come on. Those are my guys.

[Chris]

Yeah. I have to interrupt because I'm just so interested. I want to know. So like you know, you. You spoke about west coast rap sampling funk, right? We all know east coast rap tribe, you know the, the. The Q Tip jazz samples. Right. And then you know, I really like to give a lot of credit to like ski beats like early on, you know, soul samples. Right. And then all the way to like Kanye Heat makers. You know what I mean? Like that the soul. I think the soul sample era of rap was. Had the most longevity and was my favorite. And cuz it was kind of sampling the fullest ver. Like music, you know, like it had the most layers to rip from.

[Dave 1]

Yes.

[Chris]

And you could speed it up.

[Dave 1]

You could the most emotion. Cuz when you're sampling someone who's already singing their heart out, you have their emotion and you put your emotion on top. It's a really crazy superimposition of you know.

[Chris]

Yeah. My. My favorite. I think the greatest moments rap music is the soul. Sam Philly soul samples almost specifically for me. But then like also like samples of dub and dancehall music. Is dub. Dancehall music so layered. But looking at it right, like I think rap has been pretty boring since like 2019. Trap using like funeral chords and like I see what you kind of havoc type of stuff, right. Where would you like to see it go? And this is a long layered question. But like I would find it interesting if a group from East New York wanted to sample the Pet Shop Boys. Like that's the type of. I want to hear. I would like to hear that. I would like to hear sampling of like Joy Division new wave shit. I would like. I would like to hear rap in that zone or like Italian disco like kind of shit.

[Dave 1]

Yeah. I mean some Some, you know, just Blaze experimented with that years ago, and then some kids nowadays do it, you know, like, I mean, the sort of buzziest kid in rap right now is that kid, Fake Mink. And. And he. He. I love him. I love the whole thing. I love the mullet. I love the look. I love the whole thing. And he. He goes and samples, like, blog House and stuff like that. He's. He's amazing. I mean, you know, I. I think through different moments, you'll have people drawing from, you know, he. You have kids nowadays that, like, they're not sampling Human League, they're sampling Crystal Castles because Crystal Castles is their Human League League.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

You know what I'm saying?

[Chris]

Fair.

[Dave 1]

And. And they do it their own way. And you have producers like my boy Benny X, who actually makes kind of synth pop, and people rap over it. I don't follow it as close as I probably should. And I think there's also a time where I'm like, certain of these artists don't resonate as much with me as when I was 21. And that's also normal. But I definitely check for it and appreciate it. And then some stuff. Some of those, like, super wavy cats, like. Like, SA Baby and stuff, I love so. And. And, you know, but then on the other side, like, I love Earl Sweatshirt's new album.

[Chris]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Earl. Earl's the illest.

[Dave 1]

Yeah. So there's enough stuff that at least keeps me. Keeps me stimulated.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

Out there.

[Chris]

No. Yeah. I listen to Earl. I'll listen to Space Space Ghost perp.

[Dave 1]

Oh, he's nice.

[Chris]

That. That shit's ill. It reminds me of, like, Southern Mixed three, six. Yeah, yeah, they were.

[Dave 1]

They were taking.

[Chris]

If I could, like, custom order a dish, though, it'd be Yeet and Young Lean on Pet Shop Boys. Violence. Like, if I could, they would probably do that.

[Dave 1]

They would probably. If somebody gave him that beat, they probably do it tomorrow. Young Lean probably did that already. And we don't even know, like, those guys are. They're.

[Chris]

I like that.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, they're there and those guys are there.

[Chris]

Maybe I'm not digging hard enough, but I'm like, yo, I would like to order this dish.

[Dave 1]

Yeah, those guys are there. Those guys are really, really sharp. And I will say this, you know when, you know, back in the day, it was like, RZA was one of the only creative directors. Q Tip 2, right? Visionary creative directors nowadays, like, you know, like, kids who are brought up on Tumblr and who already know so many things, both in the worlds of aesthetics and of musical culture. Like a young, lean type. Type. Like, he is a creative director. Oh, he's an artistic director.

[Chris]

He's the illness.

[Dave 1]

He's an ideologue. And I don't even really listen to his music much, but I love him. I love him. I love his haircut.

[Chris]

I love, you know, what he says? I'm just like, yeah, I just love. Yeah, you see it from far away, like, as older.

[Dave 1]

There's a lot of cats like him. There's a few cats like him who are truly, truly visionaries and have an interesting perspective on the world.

[Chris]

Earl, too. Earl is just a wise man. He, like, from the moment Earl appeared. But if you guys could custom order. I want to go one. Like, if you could custom order a song. What is it?

[Dave 1]

You first, man.

[Chris]

I love this is the first time Dave has ever passed to somebody else.

[Eddie]

Custom order.

[Dave 1]

Oh, I'm sorry. Was I hogging the mic a lot?

[Chris]

Oh, come on.

[Dave 1]

Shut up.

[Chris]

You're self aware.

[Dave 1]

You know this. You know, I hope not too much. I was thinking. Okay, okay, okay.

[Chris]

45 minutes, you know, like.

[Dave 1]

All right. For the record, what are we at, an hour and a half? Nice.

[Eddie]

I would probably want. I want to hear, like, Azealia Banks go a little darker. Like, she's giving me, like, club bangers, but I want to hear her go, like. I want to hear her, like, on a trap beat. I want to see what she really wants to say. Like, you know when Doja did her rap, Shit it.

[Chris]

And she really leaned into it.

[Eddie]

Like, I kind of want, like. Because Azealia, I love her so much. I love her, like, bangy club hits. I want to hear her because she's so smart. To me, she's a little crazy. She's a little controversial. She's a little eccentric. And, like, she's a con. She. She's a contrarian. I want to hear her, like, rap. Like, I want to hear her nod.

[Dave 1]

Watch out, she might come for you. She might.

[Eddie]

I love her. I love her down. I'm like an Azalea Banks apologist, because I. I think she's just so intelligent and she sees things and she say. She says things. She puts her foot in her mouth, whatever. I love her down. You know this. I've loved her from the moment we met.

[Dave 1]

I've been talking about this. So talented.

[Eddie]

I would. She's so talented, and I would love to hear her, like, really rap because.

[Chris]

I know she can really do a whole tape. Yo, I love this because her with Axel.

[Dave 1]

Oh, wow.

[Chris]

Producer.

[Dave 1]

Yes.

[Eddie]

Her on an Axle. Like the ladders.

[Dave 1]

It. I've got. I've got one.

[Eddie]

Okay.

[Chris]

Yeah. Yo, you guys thought about it?

[Dave 1]

I want you know how, like, you have like a lot of rock groups will reference other stuff more or less ironically, but reappropriate things. Like, for instance, you know, I'm very close with the band Vampire Weekend and.

[Chris]

They'Re Shout Out Ezra.

[Dave 1]

Shout Out Ezra, my brother. They, you know, their thing was Paul Simon, Grant, Graceland. But make it in the 2000s and let's use that as a launching pad. You know, you have other. It's like you take and you do a hipster. I want to see a baby's all right. Hipster. Brooklyn indie band. Reference. Nickelback and Creed.

[Chris]

Oh, my God.

[Dave 1]

Because I feel like that's my final frontier. If you do that.

[Chris]

If you're. Oh my God.

[Dave 1]

You're. If you are a. If you are a. I knew you.

[Chris]

Were going to put your. Into this.

[Dave 1]

No, that's the final frontier. I'm trying to think what the final frontier is.

[Chris]

You final bosses.

[Dave 1]

That's the final boss. That is irony. Final boss. And imagine if they were dope.

[Eddie]

Can we just talk about, like. Sorry, I love Nickelback. Like, not all the time, but like, if you put. Tell me you've never put on like Rockstar in the car when you're driving.

[Dave 1]

I don't know those songs.

[Eddie]

I am so sorry that song goes so.

[Dave 1]

But it's Yo. But probably I love a lot of corn Hard.

[Eddie]

I want to start this band that's like my calling.

[Chris]

Best playlist is like single. What was the divorce?

[Eddie]

Divorce dad Rob.

[Dave 1]

But you know what? Our kids aren't going to know context, right? The way we know it. I bet you in 20 years a kid is going to be like, look through songs from our era and listen to you somebody and be like, that just sounds like Creed to me. Whereas when those songs came out, they sounded so different, but with the blurring of time. Maybe that already came back. But anyways, that's my final boss. The final ironic boss. I want a baby's all right. Hipster. 19 year old Bushwick. Not even Bushwick. Ridgewood. Ketamine.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Dave 1]

Band whose references are Nickelback and Creed.

[Chris]

This is hard because also I always felt like when. When. When the SoundCloud rap happened, I was like, someone gave these a Modest Mouse album. You know, I mean, like, that's what happens. Somebody got that Modest Mouse album and it spawned a whole generation of you rap and like that Creed. Some new Creed shit.

[Dave 1]

There's already some heat in there.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave 1]

Because, you know, when we, you know, when we started Chromeo, Jheri Cole, 80s funk, a lot of hip hop heads were not into it. A lot of older heads who thought that they were more into record digging and breaks and sort of, you know, they were like, ah, bro, I don't know about that. 80s. Like, it's too cool.

[Chris]

Yeah, I'm still cutting Apache up. Yeah.

[Dave 1]

Yes. And a lot of people are like, I don't know about all this. You know, that is like, it's not funny. It's not cool and whatever. And people are like, no. There's a real semiotic, intellectual, musical, humorous value to all this. This will be our corpus that we're inspired by. So, man, like, maybe some kid will come along and be like, yo, man, you don't. You sleeping on the Creed guitar voicings. Yeah, there's some.

[Chris]

You know, it's me, bro, because I saw Chris sweating. I have to. But, yo, Dave, I gotta tell you, you gotta come anytime.

[Dave 1]

All right?

[Chris]

Anytime you're bored on a Friday. Yeah, thanks for having me.

[Dave 1]

I hope it wasn't too verbose, like.

[Chris]

Yeah, this. This favorite episode. I just gotta say, for me, favorite.

[Dave 1]

Well, thank you so much.

[Chris]

Yeah, thank you.