Harold Rogers & Sean Thor Conroe on Canal Street Dreams

Summary

Canal Street Dreams | August 22, 2025

Episode: "Harold Rogers & Sean Thor Conroe on Canal Street Dreams"

Hosts: Eddie Huang (A), Natashia Perrotti (absent)
Guests: Harold Rogers (C), Sean Thor Conroe (B)

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Overview

This episode is a dynamic "Boys Hour," with Natashia out due to child care. Eddie Huang is joined by novelist/comedian/boxing trainer Harold Rogers and writer Sean Thor Conroe. The trio dives into the grit and unexpected joys of following creative dreams: carving your own literary lane, relationships as artistic collaboration, the tension between autonomy and partnership, carving space for authentic male voices, and the birth of a new avant-garde literary magazine, “Blast 2.” The conversation stays raw and hilarious, touching on identity, self-doubt, generational shifts, gooning culture, and why the creative life means living with real consequences.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Roots, Identities & Origins

• Intro + Banter
  • Natashia is away; it’s an all-male episode (00:07).
  • They joke about Eddie's daughter naming a toy “Senna” after the Brazilian F1 legend, highlighting family quirks and multicultural roots (00:30–01:00).
  • Harold shares his Brazilian background through his mother and Irish/Italian roots from his father.

2. Harold Rogers: Novelist of Consequence

• On his novels:

  • Harold’s first novel, Tropicalia (2023), is set in Brazil.
    • Second novel Humpty Dumpty is coming (set in Ohio), drawing from real high school scandal roots (02:13–02:35).

• The Steubenville Scandal

  • Harold recounts how a real-life sexual assault case at his hometown high school inspired his new novel—a story about systemic cover-ups and cultural shifts (03:03–04:51).

  “It was the first Me Too story, you know, in a lot of ways.” – Harold (03:35)

• The Personal Fallout

  • Eddie presses Harold on what happened to the assaulters; the group riffs on small-town fates, and how fiction immortalizes real-life villains (04:51–05:06).

3. Becoming a Writer: Instincts, MFA, Friendship

• Early Writing Habits
  • Harold wrote a short story daily post-high school, sending them to his then-girlfriend for instant feedback—if she didn’t respond, it ruined his day (05:37–06:23).
• Boxing to Columbia MFA
  • Both Harold and Sean met at Columbia’s MFA (post-2019), with Sean losing his handwritten manuscript during a night out—only to recover it in a raucous tale (06:27–07:03).
  • Pandemic hit; their MFA became a self-guided "Zoomed out" experiment (07:49–08:16).

“It's dope when you are a fan of your homies' writing.” – Eddie (07:09)

4. The Columbia/NYC Experience & Cultural Memories

• Eddie’s Film School Story

  • Eddie describes making a student film "Reverse the Curse" at Columbia, reflecting on racial casting challenges and quitting film due to Hollywood narrow-mindedness (08:16–09:15).

• NYC Mixtape & Nostalgia

  • Harlem, mixtapes, and Pop Smoke memories punctuate the episode. Music and sport become a through-line for generational change.

“To me, a great rapper is like, you just put the city on your back.” – Eddie (12:13)

5. Music, Atmosphere & The End of an Era

• Pop Smoke as Symbol
  • Sean and Eddie discuss how Pop Smoke’s music marked a cultural era: pandemic park closures, public mourning, and a broader sense of loss (12:13–13:57).
  • Minor chords and “funeral music” become metaphors for early pandemic gloom (13:21–14:05).

6. Relationships as Collaboration & Material

• Writing About the "Shorties"
  • All three note their partners play central roles in their work; they "collaborate" by observing each other in fiction and nonfiction (14:16–16:24).
  • Sometimes partners love being written about; other times, fictionalizing real relationships creates real conflict.

“The only thing a girl wants is for you to write about them and describe them…on some level.” – Sean (15:03)

• Consequences in the Personal
  • Harold shares how candid writing about family disputes had real consequences: fights, cold spells, but more truth (16:48–18:18).

“If you writing something that's not going to have any consequences, then it's not reverberating at all.” – Harold (18:23)

7. Domestic Travel & Literary Bumbling

• Travel Fails = Content
  • Harold describes a humiliating parking fail in Bordeaux with his girlfriend, leading to explosive, relatable couple conflict (19:03–20:44).
  • Sean’s Japan trip echoes this, with language barriers and cultural gaffes providing story gold.

8. Art, Vulnerability & Growth Through Partnership

• How Partners Change Us
  • Eddie reflects on growing past romanticized isolation; partnership makes him a better man, though it breeds codependence (21:19–22:47).
  • Group discusses literary history of codependency, from medieval troubadours to Dante’s idealization of Beatrice (20:44–21:19).

“You do have to open up...the best version of me is like, co-mingled and entangled with Natasha.” – Eddie (22:47)

9. Living With Failure & Self-Doubt

• All three are candid about letting down their partners, being embarrassed, repeating mistakes, and using writing as self-correction (23:16–25:06).
• Reflecting on process: regular journaling/substacking as therapy and a way to "capture the moments as it changes" (26:02).

10. Young Men, Literary Trends & The New Magazine (Blast 2)

• Are Books for Boys Dead?
  • Sean and Eddie discuss how most books are bought by women, and editors say there’s no market for “books for boys.” They challenge this, arguing for authentic, messy male lit (32:37–35:24).

“There used to be an era where the publishing industry doesn't want any books like this anymore...They actually don't want young dudes reading.” – Sean (34:37)

• On Being True to One’s Voice

  • Chasing trends vs. singular vision; pressure to adapt vs. the compulsion to stay true and take risks (35:24–36:36).

• Harold’s Felony, Literary Gatekeeping

  • Eddie opens up about MFA rejections, underscores self-taught, autodidact literary routes (45:39–46:50).

• Blast 2: A New Literary Vanguard

  • New magazine to energize avant-garde, esoteric, challenging writing. The name references an early 20th-century magazine; the mission is iconoclastic and chaotic (“a stick of dynamite”) (43:11–44:03).
  • Emphasis on idiocy, being a belligerent, stubborn advocate for outsider voices (46:47–47:02).

11. Gooning, Skills & Anti-Performative Knowledge

• Against Superficial Depth

  • Critique of modern “skills” as mere performance (41:38–42:09).
  • Eddie on cooking: “You can't pretend to know how to cook, right? No. It's gonna taste like shit.” (42:09–42:11)

• Skill-building, Craft, and the Value of Doing Something

  • Conversation pivots to the poverty of a performative, algorithm-targeted creative industry and a longing for energy, vision, and craftsmanship (44:40–44:51).

12. Physical Spaces, Friendship & Community

• On Boxing Gyms, Kitchens, and Parties
  • The best creative friendships come from gyms and kitchens, not industry parties (56:45–57:59).
  • Camaraderie in physical spaces eclipses professional networking.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On confronting uncomfortable truths in writing:

  "If you writing something that's not going to have any consequences, then it's not...reverberating at all." — Harold (18:23)

• On the burning need for non-performative literature:

  "That's not new literature...I wish people would seek to just like share something original as opposed to be like, I want to be successful." — Eddie (50:15)

• On idiocy and creative process:

  “To be a good novelist, you got to be smart and an idiot. You can't be a good novelist...” — Harold (52:28)

• Knucklehead travelogue as literary genre:

  “Reading Places Review, it's like you get the trilogy of, like, the knucklehead literary dudes trying to travel with the shorties and the shorties just like, you guys are morons.” — Eddie (20:32)

• On the creative life having consequences:

  “There's always consequences... If everyone just, like, loves what you're saying and love what you're doing, like, then you're not really challenging.” — Eddie (18:32–18:48)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:07–02:30 | Introductions, backgrounds, and literary credentials.
• 02:35–04:51 | Steubenville scandal and “writing from real life.”
• 05:37–07:36 | Early writing practices, friendships, Columbia MFA stories.
• 08:16–09:15 | Eddie’s film school story, quitting film.
• 10:13–13:57 | Columbia, Harlem, pop culture, Pop Smoke as the “last great rapper.”
• 14:16–16:24 | Writing about partners—joy, pain, and “living with consequences.”
• 16:44–18:23 | Real-life fallout of sharing private stories.
• 19:03–20:44 | Travel blunders as relationship and literary inspiration.
• 21:19–23:16 | Relationships as growth, from individualism to “co-mingled” adulthood.
• 23:28–26:02 | How mistake-riddled life feeds art.
• 32:37–35:24 | The crisis for “books for boys,” performativity, and the new lit mag.
• 43:11–44:03 | The birth of Blast 2 mag—a call for belligerent, outsider writing.
• 45:39–47:02 | Breaking into the literary scene without an MFA.
• 50:15–51:01 | The hollowness of formulaic, “successful” creative work.
• 56:45–57:59 | Best friendships are forged in gyms and kitchens.

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Closing

The episode closes with an invitation to contribute to “Blast 2,” an embrace of creative weirdness, and some light-hearted bullying of Sean. There’s a persistent call to arms for authenticity—messy, consequential, personal—and a celebration of literature not as performance, but as the blasted-out truth of one’s idiot self. Whether it’s through novels, substack diaries, or throwing a party at a boxing gym, Eddie, Harold, and Sean model a relentless pursuit of the raw and the real.

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For submissions to Blast 2: [e-mail]
For more: https://basedfob.substack.com/

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Transcript

[A]

Dinosaurs. Dinosaurs.

[B]

Dinosaurs.

[C]

He said dinosaurs.

[A]

All right, great job. This week. We have no child care, so Natasha is taking a break from the show. She will. Yeah. This is. This is Boys Hour. Boys Hour. Yo.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. Thank you, Senna. Thank you. Mom, why is it.

[C]

Why is he. Senna.

[A]

Oh, the race car driver.

[C]

Oh, okay. Yeah.

[A]

Brazilian race car driver, Santa Aaron. So, you know, it's like major league. You know, when the guy goes, if you hit it, you can name it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, yo, you carry it. You name it? Yeah, she named him Senna.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Nice. That's. That's good.

[A]

That's a Natasha special. I know you're like. Did you live in Brazil?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. My mom's from Rio, so I grew up, like, you know, going back and forth.

[A]

Word.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, he's named after Senator.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's awesome. That's fine. I don't know about it.

[A]

Definitely. I didn't. Rogers. What kind of. Like, I didn't know. Is Rogers a Brazilian?

[C]

No, no, that's my dad's America. I mean, he's, like, Italian, but his dad was, like, Irish. Ish. So. So that's where Rogers come for kind of, you know. I mean, Harold Rogers don't sound Brazilian.

[A]

No. Yeah, yeah. But I know you, like, lived there for a while, and then, you know, we. We also have the big homie, Sean. Sean is Natasha this week. He's our co. Yeah. The Aquarius baddie. Sean Thor clockwise. That was the best comment on the post. When you were on the show, the shorty was just like, oh, the Aquarius baddie.

[B]

I don't know how I feel about that, but, you know, I'll take it. I'll take it.

[A]

Oh, I loved it.

[B]

Yeah. I loved it.

[C]

It's the Aquarius. Full moon tonight.

[B]

Tonight. Yeah. We locked in. We locked in.

[A]

Oh, shit. I mean, yo, I feel like Sean has a lot of the, like, the girly lit fans.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You notice that?

[B]

I don't know if it's true. We've been over. Eddie thinks I got. I got. I mean, maybe. Maybe I'm.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

Yeah. No, but, Harold, talk to us. I know you, like, you. You're a boxing trainer.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

A comedian. But more than anything, I feel like a novelist.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Humorous.

[C]

I think so.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I got the second novel coming out. I got. My first novel was out in 2023, which is Tropicalia. Right. Which is in Brazil. Yep. And then the second novel is coming out next year. It's Humpty Dumpty is what it's called. And that's set in Ohio. Yeah, I grew up too, you know.

[A]

Yeah. I remember the high school you went to, Sean was telling me about.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

There's like the thing going on at the high school.

[C]

There was a. Yeah, there was a big thing in. In 2012, a big sexual assault case that became like a national scandal. It was like the first Me Too story, you know, in a lot of ways.

[A]

Yeah. And you were in school there?

[C]

I was at the other high school in town, but for the book, I kind of made it happen at my high school. There are two high schools in town, right? Yeah, I mean, like, I knew the guys and stuff.

[B]

Harold got dunked on by the guys.

[C]

I did. I got dunked. No, no, for real. And then they.

[A]

Well, tell us the whole thing so everybody knows, you know, start from the top.

[C]

Well, it was just. So there were these two football players at a party, right? And they sexually assaulted this girl and they probably drugged her and they took her to somewhere else and they were taking pictures of shit going on, and they were like. Other people were tweeting about it, so there was like a whole paper trail and shit, like on the Internet, writing pictures and everything like that. And then the town covered it up because they were good football players. Right. And the, you know, the sheriff and the football, everyone covered it up. And then like months later, like on New Year's Eve, you, you know, you went on the. The school's website and it was like the anonymous hacker group had hacked it and they doxxed everybody and it turned into like a big, you know, it was a big fucking story.

[A]

Yeah. What high school was it?

[C]

It was Steubenville. Steubenville High School. Right. I'm from Steubenville. Yeah, but I remember that just from.

[A]

Yeah, no, same. I'm just playing stupid because I ask questions. No, yeah, it. I remember it was. It felt like a old timey, like, story, you know, like we would watch movies or read books like. Or hear about stuff like this growing up where, like, football players just got to run crazy and.

[B]

And the good team, the undefeated team or whatever.

[A]

Yeah. Do whatever they wanted to, like that movie, the Program. But this was the first moment I saw, like, oh, they're gonna. They're gonna go down.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was cool to see the culture and they.

[C]

But, you know, I mean, they. They kind of got off pretty. I mean, they got one. One of them got a year in juvie, another one got two years. Yeah. And then, I mean, one of them at least they got doxed. Yeah, they did. And then dunked on you after the other one I had to wrestle after he got out of damn juvie. And he was a better wrestler, was he more brawler? I mean, he was. He wiped the floor with me. It was pretty embarrassing.

[A]

Now where are they now?

[C]

I don't know. I don't know. You know, I don't see them around town or anything.

[A]

You know, usually they end up like selling insurance or used. Yeah, or like Vin Baker, like the manager of Starbucks. Shout out. Vin Baker.

[B]

Fictionalized forever in Harold's novel. Yeah, yeah, that's.

[A]

I'm excited for this novel. Yeah. But how. How did you like get to like start writing and. Cuz for me, I became a fan off of one bar on your substack when you made a joke about goths.

[C]

Oh, it was the goth story that they were fighting in St. Mark. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And you were describing the goths fighting in St. Martin. Yo, this dude is ill. Yeah. Like the shit you're noticing is type funny. And like, that's how I became a fan of your.

[C]

Nice, nice.

[A]

But like, how did it all start and how did the novel come out?

[C]

I was just like. I started writing. I was always kind of. I felt like literary instincts. Right. But I started seriously writing, like at right after high school, like right after I graduated. And then I would like write. I would try to write a short story every day. Then I would send them to my girlfriend at the time. And if she didn't, she had to like read right away or give me feedback or I'd get really mad. And if she didn't like it, like, I would like freak out. If she didn't like my writing, I would really go crazy, you know, I mean, I put it through a lot. Yeah. But it was a good. You know, I was just writing so much. And then after I was boxing in college. Right. And then I was. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I applied to one MFA program in. In. At Columbia and I got in. And then, you know, I was just working on the novel there.

[A]

Good school.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's where I met Sean. Right. We met on the.

[A]

You went to Columbia too? Yeah, I went to Columbia Film School. Columbia116 stand up 116:00am yeah, I met her.

[C]

New student event. Yeah, we got turned. Yeah, yeah, we did get turned.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then he lost the boy manuscript. Yeah, it was the only manuscript there was. He hand wrote it and he lost his backpack with it. And then he didn't have Nowhere to stay.

[B]

It was an open bar. Right. We drank too much.

[C]

He crashed on the floor of my hotel room.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then he found the. The boy the next day.

[A]

That's. So.

[C]

I was almost lost forever.

[A]

Fucking dude.

[B]

Through. Yeah, through August, through the first. That first stretch. All handwritten, no other copies. Just carrying around in my backpack like a psycho.

[A]

I never would be just whispering X bay around the house. I'd be imitating Sean's writing all the time. It's super funny. It's super funny. It's dope. When you. You are a fan of your homies writing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then like, like, I'll talk in Hulk Hogan voice. Guy Fieri, or like, sean super funny man, but no, that's fly. So y' all college buddies?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, from.

[B]

From the MFA. Yeah. So it's 2019. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Yeah, word. Yeah, No, I went.

[B]

I was in the. Yeah, I was in the program still when. When Boy sold. Oh, it was like, zoomed out, you know?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, we were only. We were only there for like six months.

[B]

Yeah, we were there for like that fall, and then. And then Covid dropped. Oh. But we were still in the city.

[A]

So Word MFA is usually what, two years?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then y' all just bounced after six months?

[B]

Well, yeah.

[C]

No, no, no. I mean, we stayed on just like doing Zoom and shit, but it was.

[B]

Like, you know, create our own mfa. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

[A]

Oh. Oh, that's what you meant by zoomed out.

[B]

I thought you meant really, like. Yeah, when you in that environment, like, the Zoom shit was everywhere. But obviously I said, yeah, no, I.

[A]

Went there for the summer film program 04, and I had shot this, like, student film in a liquor store parking lot in undergrad Fire. My film teacher in undergrad just sent it and applied for me. And I didn't even know. And he's like, I got you a scholarship. Go to Columbia. I was like, oh, word. And I went. And I filmed this short film called Reverse the Curse about an Asian hot dog vendor that was just neurotic about dick size, but looking at foot long hot dogs all day.

[B]

Reverse the Curse.

[A]

It was like a Chinese Woody Allen esque Phil. And they were like, yo, this shit's so ill. But, like, why the vendor got to be Chinese? Like, because everybody laughs. Trash ass dicks. And the teacher's like, can you make it Jewish? Because their dicks are. He's like, our dicks are terrible too. And I was like. But like, I understand the Chinese experience.

[C]

Yeah. Why couldn't he be Chinese?

[A]

I was like, why can't you be Chinese? And he was like, well, Hollywood will never let you cast, like, an Asian lead. And I was like, I don't care, man. I'm just, like, shooting a student. Get the fuck off me.

[B]

Get the fuck off me.

[A]

I quit film after that. But I loved going to Columbia. Like, that neighborhood was so fun.

[B]

Is that how you moved to New York? Yeah, that's how I finally moved to New York, too. I had a reason to, and I.

[A]

I will never forget it because I was copying mixtape, like, dipset G Unit. And that was summer. Lloyd Banks had that song cake, of course, playing all over Harlem was hilarious.

[C]

But I. I mean, I'm listening to fresh out the. I'm at the point where you give the recipe right now.

[B]

Word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

The ultimate recipe showdown.

[C]

But you. You were in Pittsburgh. That's what.

[A]

Yeah, I was in Pittsburgh for a.

[C]

Year'S, like, right by Pittsburgh.

[A]

Yeah. They all call each other Yin out there. The food. I loved Pittsburgh.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You talk about the fermani sandwich. That was funny. Yeah.

[A]

People in Pittsburgh is cool. Like, are like. They're like the American people that I imagine in the, like, industrial revolution, you know, like, photo of people, like, sitting.

[C]

In the steel town.

[B]

Right? Yeah.

[C]

I mean, that. That's. Yeah, that's what's so funny.

[B]

Lloyd Banks is just playing everywhere in Harlem when you're. When you're there at Columbia. I remember when I was there, it was. And I was in Harlem all through the pandemic, everything. It was 100% pop smoke everywhere, all the time.

[A]

Yeah, man.

[B]

RF go.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So, I mean, 2019. Yeah, 2019. That was the year he went crazy.

[B]

Yeah. Went crazy.

[A]

We shot the movie 2019 in September 2019.

[B]

We so crazy. That's. That's exactly what.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was he dunking and stuff?

[A]

Oh, we. I mean, I love pop. Okay. So this pop is type athletic. Like, really was nice. I think he was, like, a top 100 recruit in high school.

[C]

So he could actually play.

[A]

He could really play before he went to jail. But then he got fat in jail and he came out, and I remember the first day, he's like, yo, big dog. Feeling a little doughy. You know what I'm saying?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I was like, I get you in the. I'll get you in the tech shit, you know, like, we put him in the same fit tech. He's like, yeah, like that. Like that. And then when it got to the dunking, he's like, you know, I can't get up, like, I used to. So we lowered the hoop and we got him on. On the box. And he looked good. Like, he looked good getting up. And he's type. Strong, like pop. Big shoulders, super strong. Ill spin move. Like when we were rehearsing and practicing. Like, his spin moves crazy, like, in a Larry Johnson way. He's very tough to get around. Strong arm. But he couldn't get up like he used to, so he had to put the box there for him.

[B]

That's fire.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, I was. I was, like, talking to these two comics. I was out having a drink, and I was like, oh, I seen a movie. Pop Smoke. And they were like, who's Pop Smoke? I was like. I mean, I was like, I didn't know that. You know, there's levels to whiteness. Like, this is different.

[A]

This is not. He really, I think, was the last great rapper.

[C]

I mean.

[A]

Yeah, for real.

[B]

I mean, like, it was an anthem of an endemic of an era. When you become an anthemic of an era, that's like a different level, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To me, at least.

[A]

Nerds talk about rappers like this bar and this. But I'm like, to me, a great rapper is like, you just put the city on your back.

[C]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Whatever city you from. If you can get that city on your back, like, then you do greatest.

[B]

You know, I look at Pop, like, I thought that pop so that run that period. Like, he was like. It was like the resistance anthem to, like, the times. Because, like, all the. All the parks were closed. Like, you know, it was 129 and 5th. It was 131in Lenox to 125, 9 and 5th. That area I was living. And the parks were closed and the hoops were down, and everyone would just hang, like, still at the park, but just, like, outside the gate. Like, you know what I mean? Like, still concrete.

[C]

That's crazy.

[B]

Outside, just be playing like, pop Smoke. Like, loud as fuck.

[A]

Everyone everywhere, everywhere, Every single car door open was. Was. Welcome to the party. Dior. I really like that PTSD joint. Yeah, that was crazy, man. Yeah, but I mean, that was. That was probably just the beginning of the most depressing five years of my life was just literally the day he died. And then two weeks later, the pan. Like, three weeks later, the pandemic happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was just like, I'm out. I just bounce. No, I couldn't take it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it sounds like that his music sounds like that. Like a funeral. Funeral dirge or something like that. I feel like.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Music has all those funeral chords, you know, it's all minor funeral chords.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With that bass, you know. I mean, it's built off funeral music.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, horrorcore, I think, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Kind of like horror keys and horror chords and like that. But no, I mean, it was. It was. It was like the world was going like this when Pop came out, and then just bad.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I feel like that should have, like, the universe gives you, like, a great moment and then just, bop, it's gone.

[B]

You seen the Eddington yet? No, I haven't seen. No, It's a movie, you know, he said.

[A]

He says something that I was going to talk about with us, though. Yeah, you were. You were writing and giving it to your shorty.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like, I feel like all three of us is, like, all of our work is like, a collaboration with the shorty we're with in that moment.

[B]

You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Like, we all write for places, and in every single one of our articles, it's like the shorty is like the main character besides ourselves.

[C]

Because, I mean, that. I mean, there's nothing Gabby likes more than me writing about her. She's obsessed. I mean, she's like. She's obsessed with that.

[A]

Oh, good. She really likes it. You're not, like, being ironic.

[C]

No, no, she likes it. She really likes it.

[A]

Does Amelia like it?

[B]

I mean, because that's the thing. Like, when we program. No, no, I'm a. Well, in the program. Like, you know, I put all the folkboard pages through the MFA program, and people would be like, Especially dudes be like, oh, you're, like, obviously writing about different. I was like, you don't know anything. Like, the main. The only thing that, you know, a girl wants is for you to write about them and describe them. You know what I'm saying? On some level. Like. But yeah, I mean, she. You know, she'll demand it, and then I don't know if she likes it.

[A]

After, but they'll like to be seen and read every. Everybody wants to be seen and understood.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

At the end of the day, I think.

[B]

And observed and described and. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, saying.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like a lot. I mean, I'll speak for myself. Like, I started writing because I definitely had no communication with my parents and didn't feel seen or understood by my extended family. My family, anybody. So I started writing. Like, maybe someone will read this shit and be like, yo, I see what you're seeing.

[C]

You know?

[A]

And so, of course, I feel like when you with someone, they. They going to like it. But my girl Natasha, remember when you were on. She got tight about. I took some liberty.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

With the fiction.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And interpreted like a supercharged important moment of our lives. And she was pissed.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Then you say you wrote it from, like, her perspective.

[A]

Yeah, I wrote a chapter from her pov.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But fictionalized it a little. And she was just like, I don't like it either. It's truly my perspective or, like, not me at all.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, don't be fictionalizing my. I was like, all right, cool. Then I'll fictionalize my pov.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So we took out all the chapters from her pov.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it depends on, like, you know, there's some things I'm not allowed to write that Gabby's like, don't write about that. And then I'm like, you know, it's navigating. You know, here's an interesting story. Or trying to write it in a way that's palette. And, like, you know, that I'm just.

[B]

Remembering one time you wrote one story on Substack. Oh.

[A]

Oh.

[C]

Actually, that was actually bad. That was actually bad.

[B]

You don't actually.

[A]

Harold forgot about that.

[B]

You text me. You'll text me if we got. If we got a link.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't call me out of the blue that. Unless they were like, you know. Yeah. And it was the middle of the day, I get a call, and I never heard him like this. He was like, yo, yo, do you. Yo, look at the. Look at this. Look at the story I just posted. Can you read it? Read it real quick. I was like, I read it, dude. Yeah. You went crazy. And he was like, it's fine.

[A]

Right?

[B]

It's fine.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, I mean, you know, it was a little wild because you wrote. And then he was. And he was like, all right, I'm walking across town. Walking. I'm walking to Gabby's right now. I gotta fix it. Like, he was just.

[C]

Yeah. Cause that was somewhere. It was like, you know, I was trying. I was just like. And I just felt inspired. I was like, I'm gonna take something. Cause I write, like, private journals and shit. I was just like, I'm gonna take some entries from my private journal and just, like, put them into, like, try to make a little story about it, but really not fictionalize it much. And I mentioned, like, some. Some beef that, you know, was happening with my family and with Gabby and shit. So I was, like, going into beef, and I was, like, being explicit about Some shit. And she was. She called me and I didn't even tell her I was gonna post it. And I posted and she was like, what the fuck is this? Are you crazy? Like, you can't put that out.

[A]

I love shit like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that was it. I was like, feel good about what I wrote? You know, it's.

[A]

It's sick and it's real.

[C]

And it's real.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But, you know, you gotta.

[A]

How did it end up? Like, did you get to keep it up?

[C]

Yeah, I kept it up. I kept it up. I like, it kept it up. You know, she.

[A]

How long did you have to be celibate for after.

[C]

It was a little bit.

[B]

It was a little bit.

[C]

There was always. See, there's consequences.

[A]

There's consequences. There's always consequences.

[C]

But.

[A]

But that.

[C]

I mean, also, like, if you writing something that's not going to have any consequences, then it's not.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Reverberating at all.

[A]

I agree.

[C]

It should be consequences.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm constantly facing consequences to what I do.

[B]

Tell me.

[A]

I'm like, yo, that's just the life.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel like we're not really doing it if there are no consequences.

[C]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

If everyone just, like, loves what you're saying and love what you're doing, like, then I'm. You're not really challenging.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, definitely.

[A]

So, yeah.

[B]

Fire.

[A]

I'm read.

[B]

I'm gonna read that story.

[A]

Yeah. No, but I. I really enjoyed reading your. Your. Where it was like, you were trying to, like, find parking in. Was it France?

[C]

Oh, in Bordeaux.

[B]

Yeah, Bordeaux.

[A]

You were trying to find parking in Bordeaux, and your girl, like, clearly had, like, found the parking spot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're like, no, it's a parking garage for bicycles. And she's like, nah, I think it's for cars. Yeah, it's just for bicycles. And she's like, have you ever seen a parking garage?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I really, like, that's something that if I'm wrong and I'm, like, embarrassed and she points. She knows I'm wrong. I just, like, feel. It just makes me so angry. And then I react explosively. You know, I'm pretty good afterward, like, recognizing what I did. But there's, you know, it's just that I feel humiliated.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Same.

[C]

I don't want to feel like. Cause you gotta be, you know, especially you traveling around, too. You gotta be like, I'm the man. I'm making decisions. I'm driving us around, you know? And then all of a sudden I'm wrong. And Then everything just crumb.

[A]

Yeah. And then I'm like, all three of us is similar. Like, Sean. Sean's too. It's like he's trying to speak Japanese in Japan. Can't speak Japanese for.

[B]

He thinks he can speak Japanese. I'm tired of this. I'm making. I'm doing all kinds of transactions. Yeah, you are.

[A]

You were. You was up in Family Mart copping mad.

[B]

I'm getting blackout. Talking to my uncle. Like. Yeah, like, mixing some Spanish in accidentally every now and then, but for the most part, you know, get my point across. Oh, man.

[A]

But, no, I feel like. Like reading Places Review. It's like you get the trilogy of, like, the knucklehead literary dudes trying to travel with the shorties and the shorties. Just like, you guys are morons.

[B]

It's a troubadour. It's a troubadour. Troubadour. Love poetry. You know that. You know that in the 1300s that. It's like, they would just write these, like, simp stories.

[C]

They all had a lady, right? And they were just writing poems to one lady.

[B]

Cause it's often. Yeah, it's like medieval night shit. You know, where you have the one lady you protect. But then sometimes it'd be about somebody else. Like Dante. You know, go to Dante. His wife, like, left him, and he just. He started remembering this. It's all about this woman, Beatrice, that was just, like, a woman he knew when he was, like, 20 and she died. So he just, like, idealizes him for her for, like. And imagines, like, meeting her in the afterlife and stuff.

[A]

I've read that shit about Beatrice. That shit's fire. I want. I want to run the question by is, like, you know, when you're young, like, I would read shit like John Donne or, like, things that are very, like, individualistic, like American literature. I think romantic literature encourages you to be, like, individualistic and free. But I genuinely feel like Natasha has made me a better person simply because I consider how she would feel and what she thinks based on my actions. And, like, I guess it makes me slightly codependent and slightly less independent. But then I'm like. I do feel I'm a better person because I'm not just considering myself anymore, which is super basic, but, like, I don't know. Like, how do y'. All. I feel it makes me better. Some of my homies like, bro, what happened to you?

[C]

Like, you know, you just not give.

[A]

A yeah, like, I give a. I learned to give a. Yeah.

[C]

I mean, so, though, I think That a lot of that literature, you know, at least my perspective on the old is about living with other people. Like having to like John Dunn even. I mean, his big thing is no man is an island. Right? I mean, I don't know Dunn like that, but, you know, but I do feel like, you know, really getting to know someone and valuing their perspective and, you know, really caring about what they think. I mean, I think that's an important step and developing yourself as a person. Yeah, right.

[A]

Yeah. I think as a young dude, I. I idolized writers that were like, solo and isolated. Like Thoreau or Wordsworth or whatever, you know, like Ernest Hemingway. I loved Ernest Hemingway. Old man in the Sea shit, you know. But as I got older, I'm just like, yo, it's. You do have to open up. Like, I think the best version of me is like co. Mingled and entangled with Natasha, which I'm loving it. And then I really love reading your guys shit because you're vulnerable about it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, we'll all be like, I disappointed her. I took her to the wrong restaurant, I ordered the wrong food, I spoke poor Japanese.

[C]

I. I think too, it's good like having someone that you'll be like, so embarrassed to disappoint. Like, you don't want. I don't want. I. I have a certain standard I want to uphold because I'm just like, man, I know Gabby sees me really well. And if I. So if I it up, you know, she'll. She'll see that.

[A]

Yeah, if I go out with y' all and we eat some yakitori and I. My pants.

[B]

Cool, cool, cool.

[A]

I'm gonna just throw my draws out. If I do that with Natasha, I'm the loser.

[C]

I failed.

[A]

I failed. It smells like rotten bananas around here. No, it's true. Because once somebody see. Once somebody sees you, you don't want to like, sully that. Yeah, I feel, in a way, definitely.

[B]

Yeah. It's crazy though, when you. Because if you're writing about a live situation that's happening. Like Dean. Yeah, yeah, Dean hit me back and he was like, yo, like, I read your piece finally. Like, I was crying. Like, it's so good to hear that, like, you're on a good one with. I don't know, when you put yourself out like that, then it's like just time's always moving and time's always changing and people read something, they're like, oh, wow, like, yeah, you're always on a good one. I'm not always on a good one. That was I wrote that a month ago about. I don't know, but it's hard.

[A]

You got to read part one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's. That's the thing I related to is because, like, you be. You. You had a line that was really ill. You were like, things were going well, and I could just feel an argument coming. I feel that too. I'm just. When I'm doing so well with Natasha and family and, like, everything. You just coasting. I'm like, fuck, man, what's the next argument going to be? And I start to think and try to predict it. Yeah, you can never predict it. It comes out of nowhere. And then you just got.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And. Oh, man, like, that's the worst feeling.

[C]

No, but. But I mean, that's like, things just break. Like, things are always the same. You know, there's. You could just say, I know when I'm gonna get in a fight with. For Gabby or my family, something. Because it's just, like, statistically likely around this time, you know? I mean, I don't know math like that, but I do, you know?

[A]

Yeah. It's like shooting dice. Like, seven is coming. I hit three points. Like, seven is fucking coming, man.

[C]

It's about time for that. Yeah, but that's a good thing about. I think that's one of the best things about writing. And, you know, before, when I wrote the first book, I was just like, I. I wrote that. That was it. That was my first publication. And then Sean was always telling me, like, oh, why don't you write shorter stuff? This and that, you know, but with the substack now I'm writing all the time, and I'm writing, like, these journals all the time. And it's, you know, you're capturing the moments as it changes too, you know, so there's at least some record of.

[A]

That moment and you get to reflect on yourself. Like, yeah, your crazy ass sent in a hundred pages. And I read it all. I was like, this is all fire. But we got it. We gotta break it down.

[C]

We can't publish that.

[A]

Yeah, we gotta break it down to Ace and Grams and, you know.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. But the wholesale pack.

[A]

It's just cool to see somebody that truly. Like, you love Gabby.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's so clear you love Gabby. And it's. It's. It's just cool to see that even when you love someone, it's probably like that you love someone so much that you make mistakes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because, like, I get really down on myself when we beef. But to see other people like, y'. All that is as conscientious, loves them as much still. I'm like, all right, cool. We all up.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, that's you.

[B]

You.

[C]

You try to uphold some standard of yourself, you're going to make mistakes, you're not going to live up to it, but that's what the writing is good for, you know? I mean, I. I felt like with the two novels, too, like, I work so much shit out about my past and how I was feeling about my childhood, and just, like, things change. All. It helps you develop as a person, you know, I don't. I don't know, like, you know, people who ain't writing or have some kind of practice, some kind of art like that, that. That filters what you're experiencing and what you're learning through. You know your own thoughts. Like, I don't know how you go through the world without doing that.

[A]

Yeah, you have to reflect. I'm hyped to see Emilia write the, like, Japan trip from her pov.

[B]

Oh, yeah, dude.

[A]

That's the piece I'm, like, really excited for.

[C]

Is she gonna do it?

[B]

Yeah, let her go off. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Cause, like, Sean, like, some of my favorite in Sean's shit is when he's just overheating. I just need some cigs, man.

[B]

I seen the cigs.

[A]

Smoke some cigs. I just want to see from the Beast people. Oh, this again.

[B]

I want to see it, too. I gotta hear. I have to see the explanation because I don't understand.

[C]

I don't know if you like it so much reading yourself.

[B]

Reading myself? Yeah.

[C]

Do you?

[B]

What you mean?

[C]

I don't know. I just feel like you rather write about someone than read them writing about you.

[A]

Oh, oh.

[B]

Reading someone else writing about me. I mean, you gotta dish it out. You gotta take it.

[C]

You know what I mean, bro, what.

[A]

If she says you speak bad Japanese?

[B]

She doesn't know.

[C]

Yeah, she don't.

[B]

Yeah, you're right.

[C]

She don't know. She don't know. She don't know.

[B]

Yeah, no, it's. Yeah, it's real. It's real. We going. We going hard like that with these pieces, bro.

[A]

Okay. Predict. We play some bets, right? What do you think she's gonna say?

[B]

I mean, she'll have her. Her. Her gripes. She got. She got her reasons.

[A]

Okay. What's her biggest complaints of you?

[B]

I mean. Yeah, I mean, you know, you could all. You know, you can do a lot for someone, but it's never enough, you know?

[A]

Damn. Sean is avoiding. He's. He's really alluding the question, yo. Come on, Sean. Top three things. Top three things Amelia hates about you. Let's hear it.

[B]

No, I'm just saying. I'm just saying, you know, you could, you know, as a man, you feel like you're doing, you know, doing a lot. But as, you know, as a, you know, beautiful lady, you could. You could always get, you know, there could always be more, you know.

[A]

It's okay, Sean. There's no top three things Gabby hates about you. Then we can come back to you.

[C]

Sean, I think she. Sometimes I get a little delusional. She's like. I mean, I really feel like a lot of times I'm, like, just. I'm floating or she really pulls me back down there in a good way, in a positive way. And then sometimes I'm just like. She don't follow what I'm talking. I'm trying to do something. She's just like, what are you doing? You're, like, being insane right now. And then, you know, my insanity, probably, she don't. She thinks I'm a little crazy sometimes.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, that actually is. That actually is it, because I. Because in order to create these, you gotta take hair.

[A]

No, I'm not gonna.

[B]

I'm just saying. North. To create these, you know, these, like, timeless artworks, I gotta, like, go into, like. I gotta go into, like, a trance, you know, into a trance state. I gotta invite the vision. I gotta stay up at night. I gotta just, like, you know, I gotta like. And, you know, that's not. That's not. You know, after, like, three nights of that, like, it's not a good separation. Cause you go in there. Yeah, I gotta, like, walk around and I gotta do weird shit. I gotta do weird ho. Bo. I do this. You know, I do this.

[A]

Well, we're both Asian. You start doing the old China man walk.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I gotta pace around. I gotta squat.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Just stay squatted. Yeah. And, like, I feel like it's like. It's like. Yes, It's. I don't know. It's.

[A]

Asian neurosis is some different, man. It's up. I would say. All right, we're gonna come back to you again. Because you took Harold's answer, I would say my. I think the number one thing that drives Natasha crazy with me is that when I'm stressed out with something that, like, I feel trapped by, like. Especially with Hollywood, certain times, it's just like, you can work as hard, you can be as honest, and people just play you. And when I'm dealing with liars, or manipulative people. It really stresses me out and I feel trapped. And then I start to pick on. On other things about the people or surroundings. Like, you know what, if you just supported me a little bit more, I could get through this. And she's like, what?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like, it has nothing to do with Natasha has everything to do with my stress. She does support me. And I'm just like, I start to feel like I'm not good enough. Then I start to feel like the people around me aren't good enough. And it's like, you'll know everybody here is good enough. The people we work with are ass. Like, that is it. And so like, I think that's my biggest flaw is starting to feel not good enough and then dragging everybody down on the not good enough train.

[B]

Yeah, I'm about to just, just.

[C]

You're gonna steal that one.

[B]

I'm keeping.

[C]

You gonna steal that one too?

[B]

No, but it was making me think of. I'm about to just pivot slightly. You know what I'm saying? No, just playing. But like, it was making me think of this. Like, it's a draft. A minute ago you texted me somewhere, we were talking about doing this pod and you were like, what was it? It might have just been a long sub stack note or something. Do you remember that? You texted me some. But we should talk about this. And it was kind of just about.

[A]

Yeah, well, traveling and writing about Shorty's traveling, right?

[C]

No, it was a reading thing because you said about. Oh, no.

[A]

Yeah, it was about how young girls will get. Your shorties will get you watching and reading things you normally wouldn't and open your mind. Which is like a basic concept. But we were like, ew.

[B]

No, no, I thought you. I thought you said something about like.

[C]

Okay, it was like, no, but it was something in that too. Where there's some books for boys or something like that.

[B]

There's no like, books. Like, there's no like. Because I seen another thing. Someone sent me another thing yesterday. And it was like, it was like 80% of. It was just like, book sales are way down. 80% of books are like. It was probably from a minute ago. I don't know. I don't know if you remember, but it was like 80% of people, people who buy books are like women and stuff like that. You know what I'm saying? And like, I don't know. I mean, we talk about. You're talking about, you know, people on Hollywood or whatever, but not, not just being. Being whack. Or whatever. But I think, like, it's a weird thing where I shouldn't be. I feel like I shouldn't be. Like, I shouldn't have a book out on, like, a major press. I feel like I shouldn't. I shouldn't be, like, known as, like, a. I'm not, you know, mainstream, but just like a, you know, like, reviewed in all the, you know, major publications and stuff. Because I feel like all my 20s, I was, like, just driving at exactly what I think is, like, my wave. And, you know, even, like, the way you're, like, you're so good at making shit happen in Hollywood and, like, you've done so much stuff, your career is crazy. Like, I don't have that gene of, like, being able to, like, participate and, like, think about what people. What's palatable to people. So I feel like. I feel like Fuckboy was like. Or just everything was like, a weird set of circumstances where I was focused exactly on roaming around at night, traveling places. Not all the time, but as an idea. And then now it's like, I seen this article and it was like, oh, it was like, women buy all the books. Lip. Bros are done. There used to be an era where the publishing industry doesn't want any books like this anymore. And I was texting some people, like, yeah, this is a real psyop. Or they actually don't want young dudes reading. Bros can play video games. We shouldn't even try to write books for men because they're not buying books. And, you know, if, like, Amelia sees that, she's like, no, but her. No, but her logic is way more, like, social.

[C]

Write something else.

[B]

She's like, you need to go upstate. You need to write a book. That's gonna really get the girls excited. The girls who buy books excited.

[A]

I was like, diary of an Aquarius badger. Actually, that's pretty fresh off the Aquarius bad.

[B]

I'm saying I need to go further into my own shit.

[C]

But also, like, the thing is, I feel like it. That's a conflict, you know? I mean, I assume this the way you do stuff too. Like, if you're chasing some kind of trend, if you're trying to do, oh, I'm gonna try to be like that. It's just never gonna work out. You know, the only thing that ever work out is you got the singular vision. And if you're lucky, there'll be a confluence of circumstances that will resonate with other people. But you can't try to be making nothing for nobody else.

[B]

Alien. You must be like you gotta write some crazy avant garde piece for our.

[C]

New I'm with it.

[A]

I've written crazy as pen names and I'll say, you know, I'm your straight up biggest fan.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like just straight up. Because you are so specific to you and you're so loyal to yourself. It's like I think that the, the reason why I've been able to get some shit done is not because like, like whatever, it's not a talent thing. It's that I think I'm slightly more malleable, like as a Pisces. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm adaptable just as a spirit. And like, I think that I have bumped up against my own feelings in the last 10 years is because like I did have people in my head. Like when I wrote Fresh off the Boat, I thought about like, how are my parents going to feel? How are my cousins going to feel? How are Asian Americans going to feel? I took like everyone's thoughts into consideration. Even though it seems like that book is so like one sided and specific. I'm like, yo, my actual feelings are even more insane. And reading people like you, watching some of them for like my favorite films, reading like Ottessa Moshfi, I was very inspired to just be like, yo, I've done enough work that takes other people's thoughts into consideration and I just want, want to be true and more loyal to myself. And the illest thing is like how you talk about Gabby will ground you. Right. The biggest thing Natasha has done, she has pushed me like off a ledge to be more myself.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And she's like, you're good enough. Like, do not try to water to. Don't let people water you down. Just be you. And like that novel I sent to Sean, like, Sean's one of the only people read my novel that I think is the closest thing to who I really am.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Wait, what's it called?

[A]

Basic Blues.

[C]

Basic Blues.

[A]

Yeah. I got the name from a random Troy AV mix tape. He had a song, Basic Blues. Yeah. He was like, life is like Levi's Basic Blues. And I was like, I feel you, dog.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a like just a lot of like blunt force, emotional.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Did you feel you could be like, you know, truer with the thing? Because it was fiction, it's not the, the memoir.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's, it's auto fictional. Like boy, you know, like I was truly. I just, I never will be like inspired from someone and not give credit. Sean. I, I was inspired reading boy, and was just like, yo, I'm gonna shoot the fair one too. Because I've been softening my edges for people for so long. And it was interesting to go out to editors. I've showed it to a few editors besides Chris Jackson, and people are like, yo, I love this, but this is like a stick of dynamite. Like, this is. This is a different version of you.

[B]

It's a blast.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And blast. People were like, yeah, the. The base is this type of reader right now. Like, I don't know how they're gonna react, but I love it. And I think to Emilia's point and like, Natasha's point is, yo, there are all these complaints about, like, young men just playing video games, just gooning yo. Because they don't have literature to relate to. No one's putting it out. And. And if you really want these young men to be like, 360, like fully formed humans, they need to hear about people making mistakes and successes can't just be like, this is a squeaky clean dude. You know, he's a performative male. Like, I feel like performative male narratives work right now. Yeah, but like, who is that dude with, like, wired headphones, a tote bag, listening to Charlie XCX sitting at Clandestino with, like, a copy of, like, Ulysses, you know what I mean? Like, that's performative.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That's not a real dude.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. That archetype doesn't really exist of, like, a certain type of a guy who would be like, yeah, I'm also a guy who buys a book and reads it. You know what I'm saying? That's what I'm saying. The solution is not to be like, oh, disregard that whole section of society. The solution is to create that archetype.

[A]

Yeah. And I think a lot of young men have just absorbed the POV and lens of women. And it's like, yo, the point was to be aware of this and, like, try to understand and, like, have connectivity. It wasn't to just, like, start wearing crop tops and fucking absorb all of their thoughts. Like, now you just. You Rachel Dolezaling women.

[C]

It is like. It just feels like there's so much going on to try to, like, rot the brain of young men and to, like, get them out of society. Like, I mean, I see this with, like, sports betting now. And I. I mean, my dad was a bookie. My dad started online gambler. He was the first person to take bets online.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And odog, no, it was carib sports in Antigua?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. He started crib sports and you know what I mean?

[A]

Let me hold something.

[C]

Yeah, no, I mean the, the feds raided my fucking house when I was seven years old. You know he beat two federal cases, right? He don't got no. I mean these people got billions of dollars. He. But when I to say like, I mean I used to. I fuck with gambling, right. I've been around the, you know, I've been around the, the shit my whole life and now I just see just these dumb. I got a five team part and it's just like, it's serious. Like I've never seen so many dumb fucks in my life. I'm like, it's just so stupid. It's like, no serious, like you not.

[A]

Hitting the nine leg. You not hitting it.

[C]

No. You're not like, stop. I don't want your fucking gambling. If you were going to win, the apps would fucking throw you off. It's a fucking algorithm. You're not going to be a winner. Like, I don't want your fucking advice. But I mean like men used to know something, right? And it used to be valued. Charles Darwin wrote a whole book about worms. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We bring it back, we bring back teaching and, and you know what I'm saying? We are for real. For real.

[C]

And you see these dudes knowing things and they're like, oh, you know, you know women, women don't.

[B]

I can't get.

[C]

Try knowing something maybe.

[B]

What do you know about. Tell me about. Teach me something. Right?

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like instead of, you know, instead of. But, but it's. It is like a cultural style. I'll play video games. The bettings for you, you know, all this and that. You know, go goon all day, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think everyone. Men, women, whatever, like young people now it's just like yo, I just need to project the image of knowledge. The image of like having depth.

[C]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

[A]

There's no. People aren't skilled.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? It's like, like most of my interest comes from like hobbies and work and like practicing a craft, learning about it. Like I think that's really missing.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I feel like your basis too is like cooking. A lot of stuff comes from cooking. You gotta actually know how to do that.

[A]

Yeah. Skill. It. Yeah.

[C]

You can't pretend to know how to cook, right?

[A]

No. It's gonna taste like shit.

[B]

Yeah. Dude had our first bow the other night.

[A]

Oh, word.

[B]

You know, I've watched all the videos, but I Was. I was in California back when you were popping off in the. But like, yeah, it was fire. That was fire.

[C]

That was really fire.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you, bro.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's funny. It's like I was always known for the bow, so I always wanted people to know me for like anything else. But now as a 43 year old, I'm just like, no, that is my.

[C]

Yeah, that is my shit.

[B]

I'm a bow man. Yeah, yeah, we. We already got. We already got mad. Just go back to the. The gooning thing. We got. We got mad. We got. No, we got mad. What's it called? Submissions already. Because we put out this hit for this mag. And I just glanced at it and like, one of the first things I seen was some dude being like, yo, this is my story. It follows all the Tenants of the Blast 2. Tenants. It's called the Greatest Gooner. I swear to God, I just glanced at. I was like, man, read it again.

[A]

So what is this Mag we starting?

[C]

Blast 2 is what it's called. Okay. We just put out the manifest.

[B]

There was a hole.

[C]

There was a hole.

[B]

There was an old magazine in. When was.

[C]

It was 1914. And Windham Lewis started it, Right? And so like when Joyce was going.

[B]

James Joyce?

[A]

Yeah. He was like, I sprained my neck. Let's get back to gooning. I have to like stretch my neck. Sorry, go ahead. Blast too.

[C]

Yeah, but Blast was. Windham Lewis was a painter and a writer and he wrote a. Like a shit ton of novels. But he kind of fell out of fashion because he was like a fascist.

[B]

Right?

[C]

And I don't know, like, I haven't read much of.

[B]

Yeah, we don't even know that.

[C]

Yeah, but I mean, his paintings are sick and, and one of his books that I read, I liked, but he, He. He had this magazine where he was publishing a bunch of modernists and he had like paintings in there and shit. It was a magazine, bro.

[A]

You could be a fascist, but just some. Something good about you.

[C]

I mean, you know, I mean, I'm not reading his political tracks. Like, I don't care about his, you know. You know, people do different stuff. You know, it's like Nas.

[A]

You gotta avoid a few Nas albums. You know, there's a couple Nas albums you just gotta forget about.

[C]

You're not gonna agree with all that.

[B]

All that crazy, crazy new back, you know, I'm saying back. Yeah, but years ago.

[C]

So, no, it's basically just like trying to get the modernist energy back. Like something new. Right?

[B]

We need that. Great.

[A]

You know, we need that they're not publishing now. If it doesn't check off all the boxes and hit the algorithm and you have a. I'm like, that's not the way to choose writers.

[C]

But what happens too is it just become like a lack of. There's just no energy in there.

[B]

There's no ambition.

[C]

It's the editors are. You know, I mean, I gotta, I, I really. With my editor, fsg, Ben Brooks. Right.

[A]

But I mean, I like Sean over there too. Sean is ill. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

His umbrella that. It's McD. Right. That's when my book's coming out. You know, I'm, you know, he's cool too. But yeah, I mean, those are editors with vision. They got some vision, right? I mean, a lot of editors don't got any vision. It's like, what's. They're doing what. You know, saying, oh, what's happening over there? Let me try to get some of that right. Let try to. I'm going to chase the trends rather than, okay, I got real taste and this is what I want to put out, you know.

[B]

But yeah, energy's the last visionary.

[C]

I mean, yeah, Sean really did you do, you know, tyrant or any of that.

[A]

I only know it through Sean because I, I was never like, involved in the literary scene. I didn't know the happenings. I straight up. And now I learned to write from listening to rap music.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then reading the Romantic poets. I was really, really. I just like, loved the story of the Romantic poets and what they did. I mean, I love Bukowski. You know, there's like certain people. And Junot Diaz, I have to say, you know, Diaz really got me activated because I could see like, oh, this is what you can do with literature. But, like, I was not ahead like you guys are, you know, because I got rejected from every mfa.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Like, I wanted to go and I wanted to learn and like, I got rejected because I had a felony and probably also because other reasons too. But, like, you know, I've actually gotten much more into the literature scene because of Sean and like reading Otis and Moshfi, reading her sub stack and like, my wife Natasha actually is much more up on writers and novels than I am. So it's been a, like last five years thing. But I obviously went backwards and read about GN and like, it's incredible, but she's incredible.

[C]

That was some real energy. I mean, I, I know him through Sean too. Like, all that through Sean.

[B]

That's the last. That's the 10, 10, 10 of 10th of the 10 tenets, 10th of the 10 commandments is. You got to be an idiot, you know?

[C]

Yeah, that's. That's the manifest.

[B]

You gotta be belligerent. You gotta be belligerent. Like, you got it. So, yeah, no, I. I don't want any. I don't want. I want writing from people who didn't. Didn't go to mfa, couldn't get in because, you know, got a felony.

[C]

I mean, that's what, you know, I see.

[B]

I see you're trying to be. Still do literature. Like. Like I'm expanding the archetype. Yeah.

[C]

I mean, that's like, honestly what I see. These like, you know, homeless dudes and they got the stack of papers and it's just. That's the book I want to read. Honestly, that's what I want. I want to read the damn scribbling madman shit.

[A]

Yeah, like Lasko cave shit, you know, Just brutal, wild, barbaric writing.

[C]

There was a dude who I mentioned in the manifesto. He was a janitor in Chicago. His name was Henry Darger. Right. And he never liked. He never didn't have no friends. He never talked to anybody. He'd go to work and then go home. And after he died, they found in his apartment like 15,000 pages of this novel he worked on his whole life and like, illustrated it. It's just like an insane fucking novel. And that was it. He. He just worked on that in his little house, never fucking talked to anyone, and died. And that was his whole life.

[A]

And also, I really fuck with masked books because masked books, like, the way they curate the books in there, I really like what they have up there. Like, I found this book, Feast of Snakes in there. Natasha found. Call Me Brick in there. Like, we be finding weird books. We really like in Mast.

[C]

Where's that?

[A]

Alphabet City. I think it's on like.

[C]

Oh, I know that play. It's like. It's like got art books and around. Yeah.

[A]

But they choose like certain novels that are like out of print. And it's great. Like, I. I love going there, but Sean is really like. You know, when you in high school, you have like the DJ homie that just has mad records.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then you kind of learn going through his collection. Yeah, that's how it is for me with books.

[B]

I do be having a lot of.

[C]

Books, but I mean, that's good when. When the. The curate, like you go to some books, so you see the same. It's James on the table, it's Martyr. And it's just like, are we doing the Same.

[B]

But that's a worthy, that's a worthy mission to embark on. Like man's over here who are working on the 15,000, you know, word book that no one reads. Like, like that process of like reading and writing and being an autodidact and like, and like writing something that's like with a vision without an immediate.

[A]

You.

[B]

Know, so just benefit for it. I mean that is better than like there is a, there is a calm and a value and a quiet to that. That's, that's better than, you know I'm saying. I mean, I don't know. I didn't grow up with video games, you know what I'm saying? I couldn't watch. So you know, but goonin and playing video games, it's better, it's better for the culture. You know what I'm saying? No, you have more because it helps. It gives you a stronger sense of self and like. Yeah, yeah. But also we're not even writers anymore now that we dropped blast too. We like, like, we like literacy like promoters.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, literally.

[B]

We're literacy advocates. Yeah, we're literacy advocates.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cuz someone said I'm a literacy advocate.

[A]

The most boring happening in like movies, music or books is like when someone just takes a popular structure and really like reads Joseph Campbell and it's like I'mma just put a different face in there and it's like, oh, it's the idiot. But like from the perspective of like an, an Antiguan immigrant, you know, And I'm like, but it's the same book. You just change the food and you change like, like the parents patois, you know, like that's not, that's not new literature, you know, Like I, I really just, I wish people would seek to just like share something original as opposed to be like, I want to be successful.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Therefore I will take a successful literary book and water it down with my own like false hologram identity. I've been projecting everywhere.

[B]

Yeah. Because there's a, there's multiple meanings to the blast. Obviously we re redoing that, that modernist magazine and that's why we call it a tube. Like a mixtape. Like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, exactly. But it's also just like, you know, the proverbial blast, like the scary thing or even the horrific things that happen in the world or inside you or you know, the things you don't want to look at. It's like looking at those things and not creating a piece of writing that, that just calms you down, you know, closes Your eyes to all those gnarly things. You don't want to look at that. Looks at. Looks at the blast everywhere.

[A]

I like Vice magazine, in his best era, was like this, like, provocative.

[B]

Tyrone was like, you know, I'm saying they got to put it off, take it off the printers because it's like, they wouldn't publish it that.

[C]

But that's like.

[B]

It's opposite energy of a lot of the energy.

[C]

The goal, I think, is to get an avant garde that speaks right. Like, Vice, I feel like, was exactly like that. You know, they did their own shit. They did it new, and it was. People fucked with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, I feel like. Yeah. I mean, because there's certain. You know, I mean, a lot of the modernist shit was inaccessible and it was kind of closed off. But trying to find a balance between doing your new way, however you want to do it esoterically or whatever, and still trying to communicate to people what it is, you know, I think it's like.

[B]

But yeah.

[C]

Yeah. It's not pretentious, you know, communicating.

[B]

You got to be out here.

[C]

Literacy advocates.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Being the idiot that you are is truly so important.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I would get feedback from critics, like, at the New York Times or whatever, like, oh, Eddie acts like a buffoon. I was like, I'm not acting. You're a buffoon. Yeah, I am a buffoon, bro. And they're like, but you're smart and you can talk about politics. Like, that doesn't mean I'm not a.

[C]

And so, like, yeah, those things are separate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like. Like, you know, I wanted people to know you can be a buffoon and smart. Because I think a lot of people were just like, well, because I'm a buffoon, I can't be smart. So I'm tuning out. And all I was trying to do is be like, yo, even if you are a buffoon, I know there's a dude in there because I'm a buffoon.

[C]

Well, I. I think that's, like, you. It. To be a good ride, to be a good novelist, you got to be smart and an idiot. You can't be a good novelist.

[B]

That's what. You know, that's what. That's what. The end of the New York. My. My damn New York Times. I hate that. You know, New York Times review of. Boy, it's at the end, it's like, well, honestly, though. And they have the whole thing about. With Lil B, you don't know whether or not he's an idiot. Like, when you don't know Whether or not the person's in on the joke that creates a thing. I mean, that's exactly how people are with boy, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

They don't know whether I'm self aware.

[A]

I don't know why they care so much.

[B]

That's the last line.

[A]

I need to know that their politics are in line with mine. Shut the fuck up.

[B]

The last line's like. But then if you look at the end of the book, it's like. Then you actually start to question whether whether or not he's a really idiot or not. Exactly, my bro. Exactly. I told you it in the book. I said it. I talked about a different artwork and I said, this is what makes this artwork good.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Obviously talking about my own artwork.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

They didn't get it. You missed it, brother.

[A]

All that refuse was saying was just that they needed the writer to agree with them. Them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They needed to be able to agree. And I was like, I don't need to agree with a book.

[C]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

That is weird to go in. I need you to agree.

[C]

It shouldn't be like. If you're picking up a book because you agree with it, then it's just like. Don't just like, okay.

[B]

You. You.

[C]

You know already.

[B]

You already agree.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

It's like, what do you got? What do you got to read it for?

[A]

I want to go read a book from someone tremendously up and put me on.

[C]

You like, all right.

[A]

Don't really agree, but I love your flow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It.

[C]

It. It should be a challenge, right? A book should be a challenge. That's what it's for. It's.

[B]

You're.

[C]

You're learning something. You're. You're thinking in a different way.

[A]

I'm reading your piece and I'm like, that definitely is not a garage for bikes.

[B]

Harold, my man. Yo. That's the next tenant. You gotta sometimes think that a parking lot is a. Is a bike parking lot.

[C]

If you.

[B]

Not that you're not really thinking out here. You're not really.

[A]

Imagine if we reviewing it. Was he in on it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did he know in the end that that garage was not for bicycles?

[C]

We don't know.

[A]

Yeah. It's actually never saw. We don't know if you know. Reviewers, man.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

But I'm excited for Blast. How. How can. How can people get down the email.

[B]

Blast to Mag Blast.

[C]

Bag.

[A]

Can we throw a party?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

We gotta get the events we need.

[A]

Like dirt bag lit parties.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And. And the literature. Death match. We still need to do that.

[B]

Yeah. We're Gonna do that? Yeah, for sure, dude. Definitely gotta start training.

[C]

Where are you training at Church Street Boxing Gym.

[A]

Oh, word. Wall Street.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I used to go with Nico over there. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah, I used to train with Santana in there. But I know Nico.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think his family owns the gym.

[C]

Yeah, he's gone now. He's gone now. He was acting wild.

[A]

He always been wild.

[B]

That, bro. Guys got fired.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

He used to trade with them.

[B]

You got to send that.

[A]

I didn't train.

[C]

I was just.

[A]

And he'd come to Bow House and just wreck. That guy could eat like 30 bows, bro.

[B]

He's a big.

[A]

He would wreck shop.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's gone. I actually just seen him the other day. I was at just some bodega and he walked in.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, but he's, he's, I forget where he's.

[A]

That's the funny thing too, is, Is like my favorite pe. Like my best friends I make in the gym. Gym.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And people would always be confused. Like in LA especially, I would almost exclusively hang out with my homies in the boxing gym.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was like Goodwill hunting, where they're like, why does he hang out with these gorillas? You know, like, that was the actual quote from the, from the film. And Robin Williams is like. Because if anything happened, one of those guys would take a bat to your head.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And it was just like the camaraderie in a gym. And the way you, you organically, like, genuinely make friends to me is my favorite. No, you know, it's not like, what do you do? How much money? Yeah, nice job, son. Yo, you really, you really his son up. You know, it's like, I love the boxing.

[C]

No, that, I mean, honestly, that's like doing something physical is the best way to get camaraderie. You know, you just like, you know, you're sweating. You. I mean, you're being weak together. Right. You know, I'm like, I'm struggling, you know, with, you know, box. It's cool. I mean, you should come through the gym.

[A]

I'm coming now that you there. Like kitchens and boxing gyms. I make my best friends straight up and down. And parties.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like DJ DJs and like that. Like, those are my places to meet you. The club, the gym, the kitchen. Like, my best friends, you know, we.

[B]

Gotta bring them all together to a. For a blast.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, we'll do it at the gym.

[A]

We should do it at the gym.

[C]

I mean, I, you know, I, I, I run a Comedy show there, and we do events there.

[A]

Oh, let's go.

[C]

You know, let's go. Yeah, we could. We could definitely do the blasty.

[A]

Yo, we make some onigiri.

[B]

Yeah. I was trying to say, every culture got a damn type sandwich. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? With a bow. And I was trying to throw onigiris in there, and everyone shut me down at the table.

[A]

Let's just do the onigiri. I got Taiwanese rice balls. Nice.

[B]

Nice. Yeah, the grain. The grain. Grain, meat, meat. Pick up a bowl combo. That's.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's the basic tenets of a sandwich, you know what I'm saying?

[A]

Or about, are you nice with the onigiri or we need to, like, bring someone in?

[B]

I mean.

[C]

I mean, I love it.

[B]

No, we had those little. You know, we had the sushi rollers. You know what I'm saying?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

My mom is nice, bro.

[A]

Let's just make. You can make shitty sushi. I'll make Taiwanese rice balls. We just party in there.

[B]

Yeah, we gotta have a. Yeah, we gotta have a meal.

[A]

We need to do the last two parties.

[B]

Yeah. It'd be a festival.

[C]

100.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like that's my best way to contributing. Like, a. Right? And throw parties.

[B]

Feast. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A religious feast. Like, it would be like. Yeah, that'd be fire.

[A]

I like it. Yo, you the new Martin Luther, yo.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. 95 DCs.

[B]

Yeah. Real heretic. Yeah, Real, real new. Yeah, It's a new heretical energy. You know what I'm saying? Come. Heretical energy. Yeah, Start writing some dumb at gmail.

[A]

Yeah, you're Blast2Mac.

[B]

Send your. Send your unhinged stories.

[A]

All right, this is. This has been great. Any last thoughts? Sean? You want to tell us what Amelia hates?

[C]

Yeah, come on. Come on. Something. Give us something good.

[A]

Show us what that mouth do.

[B]

I mean, I'm a. I'm a ho. I'm a. I'm a. I'm a homeless weirdo for life, no matter how much I try to dress it up. But, you know, I'm saying, a good book. It's just. It's just a tough thing. It's a tough thing, you know?

[A]

A homeless weirdo.

[B]

Nah. Yeah, I'm just. I'm a. You know, I'm. I'm.

[C]

I'm.

[B]

I'm a. I'm just a weirdo. Dude. I gotta. I gotta. I gotta do. I have weird methods to create my works, you know what I'm saying? It's like, I don't know if it's not, you know, it's a little scary, but, you know, it takes a long time.

[A]

But, yeah, living with you, I could see it. That is a good one, that. Yo, he gave a real answer here.

[B]

Nice. I'm getting bullied over here on the damn pot, dude. I don't know about.

[C]

This is bullying.

[A]

We're gonna stop bullying. Sean, the pot.

[B]

I thought that was a great Sean. I thought it was a great answer, guys. I thought it was a great answer.

[A]

Lovely time. Great time.

[B]

Great time.

[A]

Great time.

[C]

No bullying.

[A]

Stop bullying.

[C]

Yeah.