If The Epstein Scandal is a Cow… With Dave 1

Summary

Podcast Summary: Canal Street Dreams – "If The Epstein Scandal is a Cow... With Dave 1"

Date: December 9, 2025
Hosts: Eddie Huang & Natashia Perrotti (Natashia absent)
Guest: Dave 1

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Episode Overview

In this lively and deeply reflective episode, Eddie sits down with Dave 1 (with Natashia absent) for an unfiltered conversation about family, cultural identity, power, and justice. The duo explore the complexities of navigating immigrant backgrounds, generational divides, and American social structures before deep-diving into the cultural resonance and political weaponization of the Epstein scandal—seen metaphorically as a “cow” with multiple parts to be carved up for various interests. They finish with a frank discussion about capitalism, inequality, the coming economic crisis, and the differing philosophies between societies like America and France.

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Key Topics & Insights

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1. Navigating Family, Boundaries & Multicultural Identity

[00:22 – 09:50]

• On Marriage and Relationships

  • Eddie shares thoughts post-marriage, noting he still calls his wife "my girl":

    "A relationship is something you choose every day. You wake up, okay, I'm in this. Take the good with the bad. Be patient. Give the person the benefit of the doubt... But also, don't take their shit." (Eddie, 00:53)

  • Couples therapy and working through cross-cultural differences.

• Immigrant Mom Stories

  • Both recount parental boundary issues and cultural expectations:
    • "My mom is God... and my girl would be like, yeah, I don't think that's funny... it's not, it's not. My mom is God." (Eddie, 01:50)
    • Dave compares his mom to 50 Cent:

      "My mom talks and communicates with people like 50 Cent on the Internet. Like, gotcha, told you so. Get the strap." (Dave, 02:39)

• Food, Guilt & Parental Critique

  • Extended family feeding rituals as signs of love/guilt.
  • Universal feeling that immigrant moms’ approval is "never good enough."

    "Your mom doesn't feed you. We're going to feed you. You'll come home, you'll be fat." (Eddie, 04:56)

• American vs. Immigrant Boundaries

  • Second/third-generation cultural negotiations—difference in conflict styles and expectations.

    "I think Americans... There's a lot more boundaries, a lot less you can say and a lot more legislation of how you said things." (Dave, 06:00)

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2. Political Identity, Stereotypes & The Weight of History

[10:05 – 16:41]

• Burden of Representation and Stereotype

  • Jewish, Chinese, and Palestinian identity in times of conflict.

  "It's sad to have to do that, man. To have to, like, apologize for people you have nothing to do with." (Eddie, 10:55)

• Stereotypes Growing Up

  • Dave recounts childhood after Tiananmen:

    "Kids at school were like, is it true you guys kill your own people?... Then you eat dog. That was always the big one." (Dave, 11:10)

  • Eddie highlights the absurdity of group blame and how media dog whistles fuel cycles of prejudice.

• Social Media and Invisible Conversations

  • Interactions are often directed at unseen audiences—complexity around who we’re addressing, and whether we’re really making positive change.

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3. Activism, Influence, and Decentering Ourselves

[17:15 – 21:42]

• Questioning Individual Political Impact
  • Debate over how much individual voices matter in real-world change:

    "How much power do we actually have? Because in a democracy, what they're selling us is, you have a voice and you have a vote." (Dave, 17:36)

  • Influence of social media “call to action” culture—sometimes meaningful, sometimes shallow.

  "I was freaked out the first time I heard the word call to action. 'Call to action' sounds like dead press militant shit. But it can literally be like RSVP link in stories." (Eddie, 20:23)

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4. The “Epstein Cow”: Scandal as Political Collateral

[33:26 – 40:48]

• Epstein Scandal as Multi-purpose Tool

  “I view the Epstein scandal as like a cow that a butcher is breaking down. There's value to multiple pieces of this.” (Dave, 36:21)

  • Both sides (left and right) use aspects of the scandal for political leverage rather than seeking justice.

• Everyone’s Dirty, Focus Should Be Justice

  “Everybody is dirty... And the real issue is human trafficking. And even deeper than that, the real issue is power dynamics between powerful men and vulnerable young women or vulnerable young men.” (Eddie, 38:13)

  • Political uses reduce a genuine crisis into a "ping pong of political leverage."

• Personal Experience with Justice-seeking vs. Witch Hunts

  • Dave on refusing to let his Vice documentary become a hit list:

    "This is not a witch hunt... This is a truth and justice." (Dave, 41:28)

    • Allowing content only if it furthered a truthful, systemic critique.

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5. Logic, Emotion and Persuasion in Culture & Politics

[25:03 – 32:52]

• Persuasive Modes: Logos, Ethos, Pathos

  • Debate about what actually persuades people—logic, credibility, or emotion.

  "Once you keep those three categories in your head and you keep in mind who the person is addressing, then every sort of discursive instance makes a lot of sense... But it’s not true people want someone cool to hang out with or someone to appeal to their emotions." (Eddie, 31:17)

• Examples:

  • Hillary Clinton's logic vs. Bush’s likability; Bernie's dishevelment as both asset and liability.

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6. Capitalism, Inequality, and Economic Ticking Time Bombs

[45:56 – 54:34]

• Imminent Economic Crisis & Inequality

  • Discussion of a potential economic “time bomb.” Dave predicts:

    "I'm watching it right now and I just feel like there has been a time bomb on the American market... bigger than the mortgage crisis." (Dave, 46:11)

  • Eddie ruminates on wealth gaps and structural injustice.

  "I believe in a city... that acts as a safety net and as an equalizer that prevents that wealth gap from becoming too big." (Eddie, 50:16)

• Capitalism vs. Feudalism

  "We live in a feudalist society, is my personal opinion. For capitalism to work, things have to be up for grabs. Without competition, there's no capitalism." (Dave, 52:53)

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7. French vs. American Social Philosophy

[54:02 – 56:21]

• Comparison with France: Preference for stability, aversion to competition, social safety nets.

  "In France, they had this thing where the unemployment rate amongst young people was at 30%... The French government was like, let's create this thing... more people will get hired. Kids burned cars, went into the streets, broke windows." (Eddie, 54:34)

• Dave: "France is basically the Dangerous Minds classroom, where everyone's like, yo, don't do your homework. Then we gotta do our homework." (Dave, 54:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "My mom is God." (Eddie, 01:50)
• "My mom talks... like 50 Cent on the Internet." (Dave, 02:39)
• "If the Epstein Scandal is a cow, there are people pulling strings that control this cow..." (Dave, 36:35)
• "Everybody is dirty." (Eddie, 38:13; Dave, 38:12)
• "For capitalism to work, things have to be up for grabs. Without competition, there's no capitalism." (Dave, 53:04)
• "France is basically the Dangerous Minds classroom..." (Dave, 54:02)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:22 – Eddie on marriage and relationships
• 02:39 – Dave and his mom’s “50 Cent” approach
• 11:10 – Dave’s childhood post-Tiananmen stereotypes
• 17:36 – Dave on political voice in a democracy
• 20:23 – "Call to action" as a diluted, overused term
• 33:26 – Berlusconi/Epstein/American puritanism comparison
• 36:21 – The “Epstein cow” & its political uses
• 50:16 – Eddie: "I believe in a city... that acts as a safety net"
• 52:53 – Dave: "We live in a feudalist society"
• 54:34 – France’s employment philosophy and youth riots

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Tone & Style

• In signature Eddie Huang fashion, the conversation is candid, irreverent, and often comedic—but consistently thoughtful, philosophical, and probing.
• Dave brings a philosophical, analytical flavor with flashes of humor.
• Both are unafraid of vulnerability or self-deprecation, resulting in a discussion that’s insightful and personal, with a persistent undercurrent of social critique.

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For Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

If you want a funny, real, and often profound exploration of how personal history, family baggage, and cultural context shape our outlook on justice, economics, and activism—plus a sharp critique of how scandals like Epstein’s get diced up for political gain—this episode is a must.

Transcript

[Dave]

I look. Welcome back Canal Street Dreams. The love of my life, Natasha, is not here today.

[Eddie]

First of all, I did not approve the frame.

But that's fine. What you say? I said, I'm crapping your right now. I didn't approve it. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad. Just make sure the shirt fold doesn't fold too much here.

[Dave]

Congrats on getting married since the last time we saw you.

[Eddie]

Thank you.

I don't know if I've had. I mean.

It'S. I had really bad relationships. I am in a good relationship now. Knock on wood. I think it takes work. And. Yeah, I was saying, you know, couples therapy is cool.

What did she. My girl said something, and I still call her my girl. I don't say my wife. I don't know. I'll say it eventually. I just don't say it yet. For some reason, it hasn't clicked. But she said.

She said a relationship is something you choose every day. You know, it's like, all right, you wake up, okay, I'm in this. Take the good with the bad. Be patient. Give the person the benefit of the doubt. Also, don't take bullshit. Don't take their shit. You know, draw certain lines. Whatever, whatever. I'm not a big boundaries person, I think. Did we talk about that last time? Yeah, dude, my. My mom's speech at my wedding was crazy.

[Dave]

What'd she say?

[Eddie]

I mean, like some real Moroccan. My mom's Morocco Moroccan, you know, and.

My mom doesn't know what boundaries are.

[Dave]

She threw some apricots in there.

[Eddie]

No, she was just like, if. Shout to my mom, you know, But. But because in my. In my. In my culture, both on the Moroccan side and just generally speaking for Jewish people, I think, you know, a lot of other cultures have that. I know Italians have that.

[Dave]

You could put Taiwanese people in there.

[Eddie]

I would tell my girl, like, you know, my mom is God. And my girl would be like, yeah, I don't think that's funny. And I was like, it's not. It's not. I'm not trying to be funny. My mom is God. And she'd be like, yeah, I don't. I don't. I don't know about that. And it's just like, that's what it is, you know? But my mom's speech was crazy because she was talking about, you know.

Through this relationship, I've learned about boundaries. I keep learning about boundaries. It's. It's. I respect it now. Whatever, whatever. But I remember the first time I told my mom that word. I was like, yeah, you know, it's all about boundaries now. And my mom thought for two seconds, she was like, yeah, us Moroccans, we don't know what that means, you know? Yeah, we just don't know what that means.

[Dave]

Yeah, my parents are terrible about. My mom is like. I wouldn't say my mom is 50 cents, like, on the Internet.

[Eddie]

Just like, wait, what?

[Dave]

My mom talks and communicates with people like, 50 Cent on the Internet. Like, gotcha. Told you so.

[Eddie]

Oh, really?

[Dave]

Like, get the strap. Like, my mom is like, wow in Mandarin, you know, but she'll openly be like, I told you not to do that. Look at you now.

[Eddie]

On the. On what platform?

[Dave]

Oh, in real, like, talking to me.

[Eddie]

And Natasha, she is like, 50. Oh, I see. I see. Yeah.

[Dave]

Like, she. When I got the zero star review from SH Because I threw the four local party and everything shambled over there.

[Eddie]

She sent me about this story.

[Dave]

Yo, my mom sent me an email.

[Eddie]

And said, why is your mom emailing you?

[Dave]

Because I think probably because I blocked her. I blocked her on the phone.

[Eddie]

Okay?

[Dave]

So she emailed me and she's like, you need to get burnt. You always need to learn the hard way. I told you, you should have stayed a lawyer. Never should have, like, opened a restaurant. Look at you now. Look at you now, like, and I reposted it. And that actually set off my career. My mom's crazy email set off my career. And, like, agents started calling, was like, yo, what is going on in this family you need to write about?

[Eddie]

Has she done the pod?

[Dave]

No, no, she's in Boogie. She. She was in Boogie. I mean, she's like the central figure of Fresh off the Boat. You know, Constance Wu plays my mother, but Constance. Constance met my mom and just like, yo, this is a treasure trove of things. Like, there's so many things to draw from this character. Yo, if my mom. My mom was in here and you came out, the first thing she would say is like, look at Dave. Look at. Look at how tall and fitty is. Look at the way he fits in his pants. You've never fit in pants like that. My mom, that would be like, literally.

[Eddie]

It's funny because the first thing. My mom's family on the. On the Moroccan side, like, the queen side. This is why I've been. Because I've been staying with them in New York since I was a kid. You know, I've. I lived in New York 25 years, but before that, every summer I would come to my mom's family in for their Place in Forest Hills and Regal Park. Old school Moroccan people who immigrated here in like the 50s. And, and, and my, my mom's aunt who was like my grandmother essentially. And she'd be like, she wouldn't say, like, oh, look how slender you are. She'd be like, your parents don't feed you. They don't, they don't serve food at your house. They don't have food. What's wrong? Like, I need to talk to your mom. You're. You look sick. You look like a sick person. You guys don't do food. Meals is not something. Meals. No meals like that.

[Dave]

Immigrant moms, it's never, it's never good enough.

[Eddie]

And she would tell that to my friends, people she's never met in her life. Just like, hi, nice to meet you. Your mom doesn't feed you. Your mom doesn't do food. We're going to feed you. Watch, you're going to come home, you'll be fat.

[Dave]

Yeah. No, I will say that that is at the core of some of the gasoline on our relationship. The disagreements. Right. I think the disagreements between myself and Natasha are like deep seated self worth, trauma, pain things. But I think what makes it more difficult is the way in which I respond to adversity in a relationship. Relationship is like a loud Jewish, Italian, Chinese family. Like, I just say it.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Dave]

I say it and they, you know, she's second generation born in America, you know, like.

[Eddie]

But you are too. No.

[Dave]

Yeah. Maybe she's actually third because her mother is like me. Me and her mom both grew up here with immigrant parents, so we'd be second. She's third. She's very, she's American.

[Eddie]

Right.

[Dave]

You know, like very American. And I think Americans just. There's, there's a lot more boundaries.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Dave]

There's a lot less that you can say and there's a lot more legislation of how you said things.

[Eddie]

Yeah. It's interesting because, you know.

In my family dinners nowadays, you know, I think we spoke about this last time. Both my parents are, you know, sort of, you could say intellectuals, that word. I mean, they're both academics and, and my brother is extremely well read, brilliant, brilliant guy, even outside of music. And so when we have conversations, you know, they're usually very animated discussions could be about literature, could be about film, could be about politics, often about politics. And my girl would just, you know, she just sits there, doesn't say anything. And, and she's like, you guys are all talking over each other and you're screaming and you're.

[Dave]

You.

[Eddie]

First of all do. You never let your mom finish her sentences. And. And you're screaming, your dad and I are getting into it and banging on the table to me. And I was like, well, you know, we're not fighting. She's like, well, it looks like you're fighting. I'm like, no, we're not fighting. We're talking. It's so intense. I mean, I'm like, But we would love to hear your point of view, your feedback, your perspective on the matter. Don't. I don't even want to partake, man. It's so intense. Next thing you know, you'll cut me off. I won't cut you off. I don't know, man. I, I, I. And then I started thinking. I was like.

Wait a minute. Is this. Wait. And I pulled up YouTube and I. I typed, Italian talk show. And, you know, like, Italian talk shows are crazy. I mean, it's like they scream at each other, they throw shit, the audience explodes. You know, when they. They get off, they insult each other. And I was like. I typed, like, something like,'90s Italian talk show. And I showed her a good clip of this, and I was like, is that what we look like to you? And she was like, yes. And I was like, okay, I don't see it like that, but now I get it.

[Dave]

Yeah. No, Taiwanese variety show. Same thing. Everyone's talking over each other. There's graphics, there's a band, and there's two people doing a dumpling rolling contest.

[Eddie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little interlude, like. Yeah, those are good. Oh, she's really good.

[Dave]

That's a fast dumpling. All right, back to fighting, you know.

[Eddie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dave]

I. And it's interesting to, like, adapt, because I do think, like, we're. We're in America. I do think that the. The American person, the American partner in a relationship, usually feels like they are correct. Like, you're in America. This is the way. And then we're, like, kind of in the margins.

[Eddie]

Yeah. Or sometimes we make them feel like they're culturalists. I know. I'm guilty of that. I'm guilty. I'm guilty of that because I. I have, you know, sort of two strong cultures, I think, you know, the North American.

East coast, sort of intellectual Jewish culture is a thing. Yeah, Right. And the North African Moroccan thing. Culture is a huge thing. It's loud. And those are two strong things, right?

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

Two strong sort of sets of customs. And I feel bad because she is up against stuff like that sometimes, you know?

[Dave]

Yeah. And. And for the last years of the Relationship. I've adopted more of her rules and boundaries. Like, I'm not in contact with my parents right now simply because I'm just like. I think being Chinese is too hard. Like, I would never wish being Chinese on anybody. It's just, like, it's. It's far. It's just too hard. I'm like, yo, let's. Let's be Greek. Let's apply the Greek way.

[Eddie]

My goddaughter's Chinese. Oh, yeah. She's half Chinese.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

And I know her side. I mean, I. I love it. I love it. But. Yeah, but it's. It's. I mean, it's familiar to me. I know the deal.

[Dave]

Yeah. But being. Being Jewish, Moroccan, also very hard. It's a hard life.

[Eddie]

It can be a lot of expectation, a lot of.

[Dave]

Lot of guilt.

[Eddie]

It's harder now. I got more guilt now. I got more guilt now than I.

[Dave]

Ever had between the Torah and Confucius. That's, like, enough guilt for everybody.

[Eddie]

Oh, yeah, you know, Then don't turn on the news. It was sad, actually, is. Is not to get too deep, but, like.

And we don't even have to go on this tangent, but I was at a hang last week, and then somebody was asking somebody else at the table, oh, where are you from? And she was like, oh, I'm. You know, I'm from New York. I'm Jewish. But. But I'm like, the right kind. Oh, you know, I'm. I'm not like, the crazy kind. I'm the right kind. A lot of my friends have felt the need to justify this. It's absurd. It's tragic to me. I understand why she said that. I know what she means. I felt the urge in many ways in my life, even before the last couple of years to signal those things. But it's sad, man. Look, I'm. I'm. You know, there's worse things in life. There's worse things in life. But, you know, it's. And. And I'm sure that. And I know there's other communities that had. Have had to do that in light of certain current events, at other moments. It ain't. It's sad to have to do that, man. To have to, like, apologize for people you have nothing to do with. It's tough. But anyways, look.

[Dave]

No, not anyways. I will say this. Look, I relate to this because I remember when Tiananmen happened, I was just a little kid.

[Eddie]

Like, how old were you?

[Dave]

I believe I was eight years old. Yeah, something like that. Seven or eight kids at school. Were like, is it true you guys kill your own people?

[Eddie]

Like my mom.

[Dave]

Like, they were.

[Eddie]

This is before the. And by the way, this wasn't broadcast live on everybody's phones.

[Dave]

No. Because it was on religion.

[Eddie]

Yeah. You know, once a day.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

If that.

[Dave]

Yeah. And. And then, you know, people were like, you're a communist. Like, as little kids. That was the insult. And then you eat dog. That was always the big one.

[Eddie]

Right?

[Dave]

You eat dog. I remember that. Oh, my God. And I. I remember, like, my dad's like, I know dudes in the neighborhood. They eat dog. I was like, oh, it's true. It's terrible.

[Eddie]

Yeah. The worst part is when it's true.

[Dave]

Yeah. And I was like, oh, now I feel guilty.

[Eddie]

The worst part is when it's true.

[Dave]

People that, like, look like me, that my dad knows have eaten dog. And I was like, oh, we're the worst people. And I feel for the Jewish homies. I grew up with Palestinian kids. Like, Palestinian kids saved my life. Like, a guy was gonna come shoot me at the, like, said, I'm coming with the gun. These Palestinian kids beat him up on the school bus for me.

[Eddie]

Look, so love them.

[Dave]

But then I went to yeshiva school, so I'm like, in the middle.

[Eddie]

In the middle, you can. I'm. There's Palestine. I'm. I have Palestine. You know, everybody. And also, shout to the Palestinian kids that saved your life.

[Dave]

Yo. Shout out.

[Eddie]

I don't think, respectfully, that they saved your life because they're Palestinians. I think they saved your life. But they were cool ass homies with a great set of values and they had your back.

[Dave]

Yeah. Shout out the Molly cousins.

[Eddie]

There you go. Molly cousins. Right. But I'm saying, you know what I mean? Like, this whole thing of, like. I mean, I think we were talking about that the other day also is. Is you're not defined. And we are. We can embrace stereotypes, embrace culture. For me, mostly to make fun of it.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

Make light of it. But we're not defined by that.

[Dave]

Yeah, It's. It is not right and fair. Like, look at all. Everyone has the right to their political views about these countries and these politicians. But I think where the boundary has been crossed in public discourse and culture is there is a lot of dog whistle comments. There is a lot of. A lot, you know, very casual conversation going on in the news, in journalism, in culture, about Jewish people and Jewish.

[Eddie]

Power and Jewish money.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

And look, I mean, there's. By the way, we've seen it with other cultures, too. Radical Islam. That was a good One.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

Radical. What did that even mean?

[Dave]

Yeah, this has happened.

[Eddie]

What did that mean?

[Dave]

Yeah, Yeah. I remember after 9, 11, there were people in Orlando, Florida, that were like, we will not eat Middle Eastern food. And I was like, dude, what does this have to do with the Lebanese restaurant? It's a Lebanese restaurant.

[Eddie]

The Lebanese Christians.

[Dave]

Yeah. I was like, cedars. There's. There's a pine tree like that. They're. It's not them. It wasn't their guys, you know, but people, they do these, and it needs to be untangled. The.

[Eddie]

The dog whistles are very complicated and.

Can be very painful for any group that is capable of detecting them. Because.

The dog whistle, it's like. It's. I don't know if these. The. It's one of the original forms of gaslighting. Right? I didn't mean to say that. I said this. Okay, but this is what you mean. No, it's not. I said this. Okay, but this is what you mean. Prove it. I know this is what you meant. No, it's not. I said that. Yeah, you know, I just said. I just said that people on welfare are lazy, okay? I know exactly what group you're talking about, bro. You don't have to say people on welfare. I know who you're saying. No, I just said people on welfare. It could be anybody. I have friends on welfare. They're lazy, you know, and then you start thinking you're crazy, you know, but, yeah, it's. Such as the. Such as the absurd hermeneutic chaos in which we live right now.

[Dave]

Yeah. I think people treat themselves to a little hate and a little racism when they feel like there's a group that's been beat up in the press, like, oh, I'm a treat myself to this, which is wrong. And then.

[Eddie]

Well, many groups get beat up in the press, in different press, and many. And because I think it's fair to say that because media is so siloed and because there's such a rift between, you know, legacy media, traditional media, new media, podcast media. I'm just asking questions. Media, you know, that one. You know.

Social media. Yeah, Right. And all of this. All of the. The. All of the above. Talk about current events, interpret current events that, like. I mean.

It'S funny because, like, I'll have a friend post something on their stories, and I'll be like, you know, sometimes I'll engage. I shouldn't do that ever. And I'm trying not to, but I'll be like, what are you talking about? And this person will be like, dude, you don't have. You have no idea. The persons who follow me, they think X, Y and Z. So I'm talking to them. So I was like, oh, you're not talking to me, right? No, I'm talking to them because they see my stories. This is all my crazy cousins in Long island, whatever. Right. And I'll be like, oh, well, you know, my social media is all, you know.

You know, ultra, ultra progressive, you know, fight the power types of people. Sometimes I feel like talking to them, but you know what I mean? So, point is.

Social media is an invisible conversation in which a lot of the times we only see one interlocutor. I don't see. And by the way it's happened with you, I don't see who you're taking aim at or who you're shooting a sub to. When you write something, I don't think it's me, but sometimes I write it and I'm like, eddie, this is dumb shit. Or like, this is obvious. Or you're preaching to the choir. Or like you're saying this. You're saying the same thing I read in so and so four months ago, redoing. But you know who you're talking to.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

And you know those people need to read, or you feel those people need to read this.

[Dave]

I very rarely would ever be writing to you because you have reading comprehension and you're quite well read. Right. I'll just call you. But like, yeah, I don't know if I'm.

[Eddie]

I mean, I don't know if I'm well read. I feel like I haven't read enough. There's too much to read. If I. If anything, I feel like I should tap out. I told you.

[Dave]

This is a good question. I think this is a good question is do you think we are all over centering ourselves in political discussions, meaning these things, like, how much power do we actually have? Because in a democracy, what they're selling us, what they're marketing to us, is you have a voice and you have a vote. Your vote matters. And activism.

[Eddie]

Each one, teach one. Let's start a movement, grassroots, from the ground up. I mean, those are very. And I'm not invalidating that, but that's a real talking point. It's a. It's a deep belief for a lot of people.

[Dave]

It's a very big talking point. Especially to get someone like Zoran in the door. Right. If you're starting off, you need that support.

[Eddie]

Yeah. You need to pound the pavement.

[Dave]

Pound the pavement. But then it's interesting because once the person is in, how much actual control, how much impact do we have on a democracy? We talk a lot, we all write a lot, we complain a lot, we participate a lot. But do we need to decenter ourselves? Because I feel like the water is just so hot right now. Like, people are really upset. I'm upset about a lot of things, but I think it's being misdirected or.

[Eddie]

Heard or deeply concerned.

Again.

It'S an interesting question because what we're seeing is that.

The. An individual with a massing following can have such an influence that they could shape the perception of reality for.

A large community.

And so, and, and sometimes that has. We've seen it too. That has violent repercussions.

So, you know.

QAnon ers. I can't believe it's so funny how QAnon now seems played out. It's so, like, the world is so wild that QAnon is like, oh, you guys were chill. You just believed in a pizza shop. That was so crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The goalpost has moved some. QAnon was like vanilla, you know? Yeah, man, Richard Spencer, he was so chill, bro.

[Dave]

Richard Spencer compared, like Nick Fuente, Like Nick Fuentes got some going on, you know, like, so.

[Eddie]

So, yeah, it's. There's people. It's like, I don't even want to bring them into the conversation.

[Dave]

No, we're going to leave, but you.

[Eddie]

Know what I mean? But, I mean, but we're talking about people whose influence is able to shape reality and reality for millions of people. And I think Zoran is another example of someone who did what many thought was the impossible. So does mobilization work? I think so.

Is there a sense of entitlement that is heightened by calls to action on social media? Yes. I was freaked out the first time I heard the word call to action. Because, like, a call to action is a really lofty term to say, like, link in bio to buy tickets. You know what I'm saying? Like a call to action. I thought it was like call to action sounds like some, some like dead press militant shit. But like a call to action could literally be like RSVP Lincoln stories. You know what I mean?

[Dave]

Like, yeah. And I think people just need to ask, like, do I need to enter the conversation? Yeah, like, for me, I really sat out a lot of these political conversations until it arrived on my doorstep with the whole movie thing.

[Eddie]

Yeah. And even. And I think, you know, and I think even that it's like somebody could have poked holes into that. But guess what? Now it's like, you get canceled for sitting out, too.

[Dave]

Yeah. And you could definitely poke, like, I see the holes in my protest as well, but I made a personal choice to just say I personally feel not great about promoting a film about the downfall of a creative thing due to private investment. Private equity. I mean, it was a big part of the story.

[Eddie]

Everything's private investment. That's the problem is that. Is that, you know, one thing I.

[Dave]

Think the biggest hole would be like, so, Eddie, where would you have gone? Right.

[Eddie]

Like, yeah, so what. What entity does not have private investment? Private equity. And to my knowledge, and I. I hope, you know, there's probably econ or finance people who could explain this better. But private investment and private equity equity is so entangled. There's. There are bundles of investments. Right. So, like, sometimes what feels like a somebody who finances something else, you guys can fill in the gaps directly, is like, actually bundled with a whole other set of investments. And, like, you know, selling off stocks and gaining stocks. I mean, truly, like, it's. It's.

[Dave]

And so, like, it's very hard to untangle.

[Eddie]

It's impossible to untangle.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

By the way, that's why finance people are so rich.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

That's why they own everything. But all this, you know, it's. It's so entangled.

[Dave]

So can I tell you why I did it, though? Is because the guy Maguire just had really hateful things to say. Like, the weekend before, I needed to make a decision.

[Eddie]

Hold on, let's give me full context. Maguire is who?

[Dave]

Sean Maguire worked for seoa. And like, when these things started to come up, he went off on Zoron. And there was just like, a lot of Islamophobia that I remembered seeing, like, post 911 in Florida. And, like, that's my experience.

[Eddie]

I was post 911 and I was here.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

Next level. And Florida, too. Yeah.

[Dave]

Because in Florida you just hear more ignorant things, you know, like, people can go on the radio and say those things in Florida. And for me, I was like, you know what? I definitely see, that's tough. That.

[Eddie]

So wait, he. Sean McGuire does what?

[Dave]

Remind me he's one of the main players at Sequoia.

[Eddie]

He's a partner in Sequoia And Sequoia owns MUBI.

[Dave]

Sequoia invested $100 million in Booby. And so when. When he did that, it was just very difficult, and he was on the front lines, and I was just like, look, I don't feel good. I'm sitting out. I could totally see the argument on the other side. But that's who I am. Like, I'm, like, I'm going to make a personal choice here, sitting it out. But after I did that, you know, I supported the Film Workers for Palestine group. I posted. I did my thing as it pertained to the project. And after that, I was just like, I think there are people with more effective voices closer to this issue. For instance, like Ms. Rachel. Like, I support Ms. Rachel. I like Ms. Rachel. And I was like, I will like and repost Ms. Rachel. But I think that for me, I. My voice has run its course on this particular topic.

[Eddie]

Yeah. And I feel like no disrespect to Ms. Rachel, but there's.

Professors, Columbia University professors, writers and journalists who, for me, whose words and discourses.

While a little bit more sophisticated and every discourse has its audience and has its efficiency, but sometimes I wish that their points of view were more broadcast than Ms. Rachel's. You know what I mean? Like, I, I just love. I love nuance, and I also love.

Depth and, and, and, and research.

Context.

[Dave]

Yeah. And. And also it's the difference between Martin Luther King's I have a Dream speech, which is powerful and emotional. But I, I took this course that you would love once. It was breaking down works of literature and art into persuasive versus analytical writing.

[Eddie]

Ah, well, that, that was. That was part of my dissertation.

[Dave]

And so Martin Luther King I have a Dream is technically propaganda. It's playing to emotions. It's a persuasive speech, and it's an effective persuasive speech. And to use a less charged example, it's Kennedy. Don't ask what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country. Analytically speaking, doesn't say much. Doesn't say much. And also probably isn't the way it's supposed to work. But now if you look at an analytical essay, that's Martin Luther King's letter from Birmingham Jail. That is an analytical piece of work.

[Eddie]

So. So the way. So the way the Greeks had it is that there's three modes of persuasion.

[Dave]

Logos, ethos, pathos.

[Eddie]

Right, Right.

[Dave]

Okay.

[Eddie]

So you know this. You did law school. Right. So.

[Dave]

So I'm fake stupid. I'm only. I know this shit when you're here.

[Eddie]

So. But, you know, we can share that. So. So there's three ways of persuading and normally using the notion of decorum. You're supposed to adapt to the audience that you have. By the way, this is kind of relevant to what we were saying before and also very, very, very relevant to the world we're in right now.

[Dave]

Well, let's talk about logos pathos, because people don't know this.

[Eddie]

Yeah, so. Okay, so. So there was three, right? Absolutely. So there's three ways of persuading logos, ethos.

Pathos. And so.

Ethos is presenting yourself as a person who can be trusted. Your own set of ethics. Right. I like this guy. I don't care what he's talking about. I like him. Obama, Zoran, logos, purely rational.

[Dave]

Bernie Sanders.

[Eddie]

Well, he's also really. I love Bernie. He's so old. Bernie's a little bit like a Socrates figure, I think.

[Dave]

That's right.

[Eddie]

He's a Socrates. He's been through it. Look at him. He's 100 years old. He's also very much. He's very much Socrates. He looks crazy with the mittens. His posture is terrible. His hair's all over the place. Right. You know his coat from the I'm again asking meme, whatever it's called. His jacket's crazy. The mittens, the whole thing. Glasses are like this. And in a way, this look.

Plays to his character. Right. He's the guy that is so disheveled because he doesn't care about his appearance. He doesn't give a about how he looks.

[Dave]

But in a funny way, his appearance and identity, I think, have barred him from winning.

[Eddie]

Yes, but, you know, I would say that, you know what's a counterexample?

[Dave]

Who?

[Eddie]

Boris Johnson. Boris Johnson. That's not his hair. This is not his hair. Do you know this?

[Dave]

He just looks like shit.

[Eddie]

Even though he does it on purpose. He does it on purpose. He messes up his hair. Boris isn't even his real name. This is funny second name.

[Dave]

Can we come up with an example of someone who is leans into logic? Their appeal is pure logic.

[Eddie]

I'll give you an example, because I remember. This is. So I first moved to New York, I think it was. I moved here in 2002 and I remember watching the debate between W and John Kerry. And John Kerry, another one who leaned a lot into logic in. In recent times was. Was our girl, Crooked Hillary. But she was the queen of logic. She didn't. She did not. She did not. And. And her ethos was terrible. She lost because people were like, we don't trust you. You're a liar. What are you talking about? You're. You're Illuminati. I don't care how much sense you make. I don't care how logical you are. You're luy not he.

[Dave]

Get out of here and Then when she tried to be likable, she's like, I got hot sauce in my purse.

[Eddie]

Yeah. So. So that her ethos didn't work. Her ethos did not work. But that's a great example. And then I remember watching George W. Bush versus John Kerry. And John Kerry was all logos. He was all.

Logic, argumentation, facts. And I was like, this guy's gonna win. He clobbered George Bush. George Bush, I remember, was like, we have Poland. Like, couldn't even name countries. Yeah. And then the ratings came, the polls came out the next day, and most Americans felt like George Bush won the debate. And I remember there was one that says, who would you rather have dinner with? And everybody was like, yo, W. Is a guy that we could see ourselves having at the table.

[Dave]

He's a painter.

[Eddie]

He's a painter. He's a terrific painter. He's a. He's. He's, you know, he's. He's a guy we'd like to hang out. And that can weigh more than. Than argumentative logic. And then the third one, you took.

[Dave]

It to there because that's the turning point of the country. We chose Dubia, the good old boy, goofy, over the guy who had some sense. Sorry, the third one.

[Eddie]

Yeah. Sense doesn't get you very far, I think, when you're dealing with large crowds. I think it's more.

This is who I am. And then. Or like, how can I tickle your heartstrings? Bubba was really good with the tickling your heartstrings. I remember my dad. My dad wasn't. You know, my dad is very far from a capitalist. He's. He's, you know, my dad makes Bernie look like a capitalist. And I remember my dad watching Clinton's State of the Union address. It's like 90s or whatever, and. And little tear. And this is like. That's the pathos. So pathos is appeal to emotion.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

Ethos is like projecting a personality and a sense of self that make people want to trust you. And logos is argumentative logic. I don't think you're going to get anywhere like that. You know who's very logos is Elizabeth Warren.

[Dave]

Oh, that's a good one.

[Eddie]

Because they call policy wonk.

[Dave]

Yes. Right.

[Eddie]

Dry.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

Cold.

Not the most charismatic.

[Dave]

No.

[Eddie]

Questionable episodes in her biography, but rationally, intellectually robust. Yeah. So I think. I think. Yeah, it's. Once you keep those three categories in your head and you keep in mind who the person is addressing, then every sort of discursive instance makes a lot of sense. And we have this prejudice in our culture that logic is more important than everything else, or logic is more valuable than everything else. But it's not true. It's untrue. People want someone cool that they can hang out with, or they want someone to appeal to their emotions, or they want something. They want an irrational collection connection.

[Dave]

What's. Yes, because it's romantic.

[Eddie]

Because it, because it's visceral, because it's instinctive. Right.

[Dave]

It's funny because it's scary. It's dangerous. Love is irrational.

[Eddie]

Well, yeah.

[Dave]

You know, it's completely French.

[Eddie]

In French we have a saying that says, the heart has its reasons that reason doesn't understand.

[Dave]

Was Descartes the rational who did? Rational man.

[Eddie]

That was, that was Descartes.

[Dave]

Yeah, that was Descartes. Yeah. I mean, I, I love that, but.

[Eddie]

I, I, I, I love it too. I'm more of a old European continental philosophy guy. Anglo Saxon analytic philosophy I find very hard to understand. But they're really different, you know, frames of mind.

It's so it, I was thinking even about this, like these sort of different cultural frameworks in that we're still a part of. I mean, the sort of Anglo Saxon pragmatism is still a thing. The sort of continental European rationalism is still a thing. And I was even thinking a little bit about the American Puritanism and how it's still a thing because. And I'm not making any, I'm not making any apologies.

Epstein here. Berlusconi in Italy. Berlusconi, when he had his crazy orgies. Okay. It's funny, I was also thinking that kind of Eric Adams was the Berlusconi of New York.

[Dave]

Absolutely right.

[Eddie]

Am I right?

[Dave]

Absolutely. Just tearing up hookah bars.

[Eddie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was the be. He was our just the most unserious. Anyway, but Berlusconi, I remember he would have famously have these things called bunga bunga parties. Remember that? Which were like insane, you know, Coke fueled orgies with underage processors. The most vile shit ever. The whole country knew about it. Nobody said anything. And when he confronted, when he was confronted about it, he was like, well, at least I can still get it up. And, and everybody was like. Or like, they were just like, dude, you're insane.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

Yeah. Different mind frame. Far from the American Puritanism. Although, of course, you know, to be absolutely objective, there's far more to Puritanism, you know, involved in the, the Epstein outrage. There's a lot to unpack in there, I think. Yeah. I look forward in a few years to cultural historians unpacking all the signifiers in that scandal. Because there's a lot. There's legitimate outrage. There is the question, the. The voices of survivors that have been ignored for so long and even shamed for so long.

[Dave]

Suppressed.

[Eddie]

Suppressed. But there's also Illuminati, Pizzagate, the elites conspiracies. And there's also big money finance conspiracies. And then the weird thing about him, too, is his relationship with prominent academics.

[Dave]

Right.

[Eddie]

The MIT thing. There's so much to unpack. I would love, like, sort of a semiotic analysis of all the components of the Epstein scandal. There's so many. And it seems like every. Sorry. And it seems like everyone finds something that resonates with them. So people who. Rightly so I fall into that category. People who are concerned with the suppressed voices of. Of survivors of abuse and of trafficking, they're just like, well, this is why I care. And then you've got. And then you've got, you know, anti Semites. You know, Mossad controls the world, but he was an agent. Then you've got Pizzagate. The elites are all in cabal together. They care about that. Then you've got people who are like, dude, our president's a fucking president. Our president's a human trafficker who was, you know, on a PJ with Clinton doing God knows what with Dershowitz. They're scandalized by that all, you know, rightfully so on that one. But it's funny how everybody finds their.

[Dave]

Yeah, I would fully agree with you because I view the Epstein scandal as like a cow that a butcher is breaking down. There's value to multiple pieces of this.

[Eddie]

Yeah, that's.

[Dave]

There are the.

[Eddie]

What's that? You know, in. In restaurants you have that drawing pieces.

[Dave]

Of the cow, and everybody's got their favorite piece. And what I would say is that there are. There are innocent, genuine people that are like, I want to do this on the part of the survivors.

[Eddie]

Yeah, that's me.

[Dave]

I want the right thing done. And I think that's the majority of the public. But the people that own this cow, if the Epstein scandal is a cow, there are people pulling strings that control this cow. And it's just like, you can tell the Democrats are down bad right now and got nothing. They got no plan, they got no leverage because they are selling off pieces of the Epstein scandal cow that they have to fire off. They're firing off the emails. Everyone is invested in this cow. The right has things that they can fire off. And kill the Clintons with. You know, there's things that they could probably fire off and put on the Biden administration for having the ability to release and not releasing. The left has Trump that they want to hit with pieces of the Epstein cow. But that's how I see it. And that's why I'm like, all of this is disingenuous to me. Both sides are using it when they're down bad, and they need a hit.

[Eddie]

Yeah. So I. I love that analysis.

In my mind, maybe it's because I'm like, you know, sort of a little bit older and detached. And when I do zoom out, my vision is clearer. And in my mind, it's like the only. The thing that really, first of all, what you're saying, everybody's corrupt.

[Dave]

No one actually cares in government.

[Eddie]

Everybody is dirty.

[Dave]

Everybody. Everyone's involved in this.

[Eddie]

Everybody's dirty.

[Dave]

Everyone's on that fucking.

[Eddie]

So let's stop putting people on the pedestal and saying, these are great. Right. But. And. And the. And the real issue for me is human trafficking. And even deeper than that, the real issue is power dynamics between.

Powerful men and vulnerable young women or vulnerable young men or whatever. Right. So vicious power dynamics within a capitalistic society and the epidemic of human trafficking after that. The sort of, like, Illuminati side of it. Everyone's dirty. Everybody's dirty.

[Dave]

And then also, I think no matter what we, like, I'm not nihilistic. You know, I'm very hopeful, and I always want to do the right thing, and I want to fight.

[Eddie]

I feel like I'm maybe more nihilistic than you sometimes.

[Dave]

Yeah. I, like, think I can.

[Eddie]

Or disillusioned. Yeah. But me too.

[Dave]

Yeah. The thing about the Epstein thing that upsets me is that when you look at the moves that are being made, they have the information. They're playing the game of what can be released and what can't be released. And I'm seeing that they're systematically using it for their own political purposes, but no one's.

[Eddie]

And timing it right. So you feel. So you feel like this is all right. This is a opportune moment for us to release XYZ or talk about XYZ or incriminate xyz, because the moment needs this.

[Dave]

Because they caved on the shutdown, so they needed a hit. It's like, if you're label, come. Dave, I need a hit. I need to hit right now. Yo, let's, you know, let's chop it off the old block. Right? But I really do just feel disillusioned with the whole Epstein scandal because I don't think this is a real search for truth. I don't think this is trying to stop human trafficking. Well, that's. Oh, they are using a crime.

[Eddie]

Can I, can I rephrase what I think you're saying?

[Dave]

Sure.

[Eddie]

I think you're saying you don't think it's actually a real search for justice.

[Dave]

Yes.

[Eddie]

Right. Not really. Truth. Justice.

[Dave]

There is no search for justice here. They are using it to hit each other. And you know why? Because they all did it together and they know what the other person did.

[Eddie]

Right. So, and, and, and the sad part of, and a sad outcome of this would be that it becomes, like you said, political. A ping pong of political leverage. And that rather than a discussion around.

Trafficking and an awareness of survivors and what was. I don't feel like there's so much of that anyway. I feel like I'm seeing more of the political ping pong.

[Dave]

And I'll tell you something, when I was doing the Vice doc, and you remember this because I was calling around because a lot of bad things happen at Vice, the reason I chose the people that participated in the documentary, like yourself, Jesse Pearson, Leslie Arfin, Amy Kellner, was because you all were the people that were not using your interviews and your time in the film for self serving purposes.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Dave]

There was a search for justice. You were asking questions, you were curious. There were a lot of people that sent emails, sent files, sent things to be like, get them. Get this guy. Get that girl. And I was like, yo, really?

[Eddie]

I could see that.

[Dave]

Not what I'm doing here.

[Eddie]

I could see that. I could see that.

[Dave]

And a lot of things I did not allow into the film because I was like, this is not a witch hunt to take people down that we don't like. This is a truth and justice.

[Eddie]

Well, you're, you're going at a couple of guys in that film.

[Dave]

Well, I would actually challenge you on this.

[Eddie]

Okay, good.

[Dave]

The thing is, I was searching. So what I'm saying is I got emails being like, this guy did this thing. And I was like, that's.

[Eddie]

I see.

[Dave]

I'm not just. This is not a shopping list of people who did bad things.

[Eddie]

Okay.

[Dave]

Or girls.

[Eddie]

So you're right. So you're. You were trying to get to the bottom of.

[Dave]

I only the rock allowed people to tell stories about individuals that had power there, that, that were able to systemically affect things. Like, look, I'm the biggest Spike Jones fan. I love Spike. I was honored and like, such A fan to work with Spike. But I experienced, like, not ever getting a director credit. You know, certain things. I always wondered why. And then like when Santiago, rest in peace, who passed away two weeks ago, came into the interview, I was like, as much as I love Spike, I can't keep this out. Like, I need to put this in because, like, when it gets to the top and then it's filtered down and affected so many other people, like the manipulation of credit or the like not giving certain people credit, I was like, I can't. I can't keep this out of the.

[Eddie]

Is is not to take a tangent, but.

Is not giving credit, is not getting credit sometimes part of just like an apprenticeship. I don't know. Like, you know, there's certain things, I.

[Dave]

Think when you're directing something or your show running, that's kind of like you kind of got to give it up to the guy, girl, you know?

[Eddie]

Right. It's interesting. There's, there's, you know, there's.

[Dave]

There was no direct. Like, they never gave a director credit on any of those videos. People were doing it, you know, like film, like the show doesn't jump into the camera.

[Eddie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dave]

Is what I would say.

[Eddie]

There was no director credit, but Spike Jones was credited as the creative director. Right.

[Dave]

An executive producer. And so like, okay, so it's all you. All right. So it's all you guys. And the thing that it was a search for justice in the sense of like a cautionary film. I allowed things in that I thought would help young artists today working at companies like that.

[Eddie]

That's cool. I like that.

[Dave]

You know.

[Eddie]

And you know what? That's cool. I like that. And you never told me that when you. When you interviewed me, but that's cool. A sort of a.

Cautionary tale. Knowing that there's so many more media companies like that and knowing that in today's world, the titles can be even more vague. There's a lot more creative directors now than in Williamsburg 2010.

[Dave]

Like, somebody submitted a lot of files to me and it was gonna be a great interview. But then it was just like the person was like, but I. I want this set. And that said, and I'm gonna write a book. And I was just like, right, no, right. No. Like that self serving, like, this is about truth for search for justice.

[Eddie]

Yeah. Truth is tough. We just said before, like, you know.

It'S so funny because.

The. The sort of thing like the post truth world.

Words like fake news, they're really part of today's parlance. They're not even. Like, it's not even crazy. It's not even coded to say that anymore. I remember, you know, 2016, it was still Trump MAGA coded to say fake news. Now we all say fake news. Right. And now we all say post truth. And we all question.

What truth is.

In an AI driven world. But I. I hope that a concept like that of justice stays pure.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

And. And.

[Dave]

That'S samurai shit.

[Eddie]

Yeah. It also boils down to sort of, you know, values that you willing to. To exist by, to live by.

[Dave]

Like, I'll say you watch the Wire, right?

[Eddie]

A little bit.

[Dave]

I'll say the character I love the most was Omar, because I'm not a huge wire guy.

[Eddie]

I don't think I finished it.

[Dave]

Word. Well, let me ask you this before, before we let you go, I have a question. Do you follow the markets?

No.

[Eddie]

Peripherally.

[Dave]

Peripherally?

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Dave]

How did. Have you. Have you been seeing, like, some of the statistics that have been released about like, trade deficits since the tariffs, things like that, The AI bubble?

[Eddie]

Curious, Tell me more.

[Dave]

Well, I would. I was curious to see if you had been paying attention to get your opinion, because I respect your opinion on all things. And I was just like. I'm watching it right now and I just feel like there has been a time bomb on the American market, financial markets that's bigger than the mortgage crisis. I think that time.

[Eddie]

I've heard that a lot.

[Dave]

I think it's about to go off this month.

[Eddie]

I've heard that a lot. I wish I knew more about it. I'd love to. For you to teach me about it. I have.

It's. Well.

I know that last time I looked at my sort of modest investments, everything was up. And I was like, the world seems like it's going down. Why is everything up?

[Dave]

I think that's when it shifts is because there's always the rise. And when it's not connecting with what you're seeing in real life, you gotta pick your chips up.

[Eddie]

Or it's. Yeah, right. Or people are. Or there's a lot of people making a lot of.

[Dave]

Or.

[Eddie]

Or the, the gap between the people who are making more and more and more and more and the people who have less and less and less and less widens. So the people who have been happening. Right. So one thing I remember reading was something about the interest rates. They're too high for modest people to borrow.

But they're just high enough for people with money to make more money.

[Dave]

That's exactly the problem. That is the time bomb. I see. I Think America's.

[Eddie]

Did I say that right? Yeah. That's the little bit that I. I.

[Dave]

Think in international markets, America, the secret's been out for a few years now. America's down bad. And, like, that's why Trump is coming with these tariffs. He's trying to, like, fight our way back into dominance in the international markets. I don't think.

[Eddie]

Go get Saudi homeboy Yesterday to invest 100 billion.

[Dave]

Was that what I want to say? Yeah, but we're no longer that competitive in the global market. That's America's financial international problem. But the problem within our borders, in our country, is inequality. And the, the inequality gap.

[Eddie]

Right.

[Dave]

The wealth gap.

[Eddie]

Crazy.

[Dave]

Is untenable.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Dave]

And anytime in history, it has gotten to this level where so few have so much and so many people are pushed down. You get things like the French Revolution and I think the credit crisis that you're talking about, people cannot pay their credit cards, they cannot borrow more, but people are making tons of money.

[Eddie]

That's right.

[Dave]

That's.

[Eddie]

That's those. That's the dual reality that we're living in. And it gets back to the question.

Of justice, because.

I think, you know.

You and I are okay.

[Dave]

I'm not as okay as you.

[Eddie]

You don't know how okay I am. But I'll say, you know, thank God, knock on wood, I'm okay. But where my heart lies and how I feel.

When the tax man comes once a year and really sticks me.

I'm like, go ahead, stick me. It's not about me. Stick me, stick me. And I hope that he. And I think that when, you know, when the next mayor, the new mayor, is in power, they'll stick me more, and I'm okay with it. I want them to stick me. If it's going to make buses cheaper, stick me more if you're doing well. My value system.

My value system, if I can say this humbly, is not to the advantage of my bank account. It's not. It's never been. That's just me. That's my. You know, and I. And there's. And it's actually quite un American. And that's where I really feel like a Canadian. I really. Or European. I believe, in.

A city, in the case of New York or a state that acts as a safety net and as an equalizer that prevents that wealth gap from becoming too big.

[Dave]

Yeah, It's. It's. I wish more people. I wish more people had that point of view. Because the thing is, if you're making money, you have to get Stuck. And like you have to give back into the system. So there's money circulating. Because right now what's happening is the people making money are doing it so well and pushing everyone so down they're going to run out of people to buy their products.

[Eddie]

So.

[Dave]

But, but people cannot pay their bills and with the holidays coming, dude, this is a cold, cold Christmas Hanukkah because people do not have money to do the things they want or they're going to overextend to get that win on the day and then it is going to bust.

[Eddie]

I read.

I'm a, I'm a regular reader of the Economist because.

It'S a really intelligently written paper that I fundamentally disagree with on economic issues. So it's like I'm having like a conversation with a really, really, really smart free market capitalist. And you know, it's, it's, it's better than re reading things that just affirm what I already believe in. I kind of want to read a well argued, different perspective than mine and someone who, you know, coming from a voice that's totally different than what I believe in. But.

From the ultra free market standpoint, the more rich people make money, the more they invest back into society, then that creates jobs, then more people have money and so on. Right. That's like, if I'm not mistaken, for.

[Dave]

Capitalism to work, the money has to circulate. You can't sit on it.

[Eddie]

Right. And like, and they think I'm an idiot for saying, no, no, no, no, no. It's the city of New York that needs to come in and lower the prices of buses and making sure, you know, landlords can't do XYZ and making sure there's enough affordable housing. I mean, they think we're crazy for thinking that. They're like, no, once the economy is booming, everybody's got money for the bus, the businesses are thriving, tenants can pay rent. Right. Yeah.

[Dave]

The problem now is it's very simple if you think about it like a chicken farm. The rich people have, before we had.

[Eddie]

The cow, now we have the chicken.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

This is why you're on brand.

[Dave]

I'm on brand, man. But they got all the chickens and they're not in circulation. So we can't get no eggs from those chickens. We can't make fried chicken from those chickens. And then every time, let's say 10 chickens pop up, they're taking nine.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Dave]

And the rest of us are fighting over that one chicken.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Dave]

And it's just like, that's not capitalism. That's Feudalism. We live in a feudalist society is my personal opinion.

For capitalism to work, things have to be up for grabs. We got to have a chance to compete. Without competition, there's no capitalism.

[Eddie]

You're right.

[Dave]

And.

[Eddie]

And they sell.

They sell the dream that things are up for grabs.

[Dave]

It's funny because there is no competition.

[Eddie]

And it's funny because in a country like France, they don't like competition. In fact, when Sarkozy was like, you know.

We'Re going to offer extra pay. You don't have to work extra hours, but if you do, you get paid extra to incentivize people to work a little bit harder. People went to the streets and they were like, this is crazy. It's going to create competition in the workplace. We don't want competition in the workplace. Why should there be a competition between Mr. Overzealous Nerd here, who's going to work all weekend and all night, and me? I want to go home. I want to be with my family. And they have a good point. Not everyone can afford to stay at work longer. Some people have kids to take care of.

[Dave]

I love it. France is basically the dangerous minds classroom, where everyone's like, yo, don't do your homework. Then we got to do our homework.

[Eddie]

Kind of. Kind of. But it just shows you, like, sort of a framework that's so radically different than ours. I used to have to teach, you know, when I was. When I was teaching French and French literature and French language and French culture at Columbia and Barnard, I would have to teach these frameworks. So, for instance, and this is just talking about, you know, sort of different.

Philosophies of how a society should work. So in France, they had this thing where the unemployment rate amongst young people was at 30%. It was nuts. Young people were not getting hired. Why? Because when you hire someone over there, you can't fire them. You're stuck. There's so much employee protection that employers are like, man, I don't want to hire because when I hire, I can't fire them. I got to go through all this red tape to fire somebody because, you know, it's a socialist country. So no one was hiring youngins because it's like, you're hiring someone new. You're taking the risk. They might be an incompetent, they might be lazy. Then you're stuck with them. You can't fire them. So the French government was like, look, let's create this thing called the first hire contract. If this is your first job, your employer could fire you more easily. Maybe you're on for just a year and then if it doesn't work out, they let you go. Okay? That way more people will get hired, more young people will get kids burned cars went into the streets, broke windows. It was a revolution. And I was trying to explain that to my students, and I was like, these people would rather keep the unemployment rate, the youth, the young adult unemployment rate at 30%, than work somewhere where they could get fired if they're an incompetent after one year.

[Dave]

That is wild perspective.

[Eddie]

That's what it is.

[Dave]

But I like France.

[Eddie]

I love it. I love it. I remember. I remember when the French, the Socialist Party was fighting for the 30 hour work week, the 30 hour work week. And I remember the argument was like, yo, we gotta spend time with our family. And it's like, I like it.

[Dave]

Thank you for coming on the show. This has been incredible. I needed this. I needed it this week, man.

[Eddie]

Yeah, this was a lot more. Yeah, this was great.