The Sean Thore Conroe Interview on Canal Street Dreams *FREE SUBSTACK PREVIEW*

Summary

Canal Street Dreams: The Sean Thor Conroe Interview – Episode Summary

Release Date: May 30, 2025
Podcast: Canal Street Dreams
Hosts: Eddie Huang and Natashia Perrotti
Guest: Sean Thor Conroe, acclaimed novelist and author of Fuck Boy

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1. Introduction to Sean Thor Conroe

In this episode of Canal Street Dreams, hosts Eddie Huang and Natashia Perrotti welcome novelist Sean Thor Conroe. Celebrated for his provocative work Fuck Boy, Sean delves into his literary journey, creative processes, and the interplay between his writing and personal life.

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2. Sean’s Path to Becoming a Writer

Sean begins by sharing his early foray into writing during his undergraduate years. “I started taking a creative writing class in undergrad way back in 2011-2012,” he explains (01:02). Despite a period of exploration and varied experiences—including attempting to walk cross-country and working different jobs—Sean returned to New York in 2019 with three completed books, setting the stage for his breakthrough work.

He credits Columbia’s MFA program and his collaboration with a maverick editor at Giant Publishing for the eventual success of Fuck Boy. Tragically, the editor passed away in 2021, which led to major publishers recognizing the potential of Sean’s work, ultimately propelling the book into the spotlight.

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3. Writing Style and Literary Influences

Sean discusses his literary influences, particularly the Chilean novelist Roberto Bolaño. “He’s the sickest,” Sean remarks (05:12), highlighting Bolaño’s ability to blend crude realism with profound literary depth. This influence is evident in Sean’s own writing, which marries raw honesty with intricate narrative structures.

He also touches upon the challenges of navigating academic pressures at Swarthmore’s intense liberal arts program. The demanding curriculum, which included reading giants like Joyce and Proust, initially alienated him. However, this rigorous academic exposure ultimately fueled his passion for writing, pushing him to explore deeper and more personal themes.

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4. Themes in Sean’s Work

Sean’s novels often grapple with themes of love, intimacy, and self-examination. He describes his approach as a “confessional” style, where characters confront their own flaws and societal issues. In discussing Fuck Boy, Sean states, “It’s not just a trauma dump; it’s trying to find a resurrection and thinking about the bigger resonances of it” (12:20).

He emphasizes the importance of literature in holding a mirror to society and the self, allowing readers to engage with uncomfortable truths and personal introspection. Sean believes that every literary movement should strive to broaden the voices represented, tackling difficult subjects to provoke meaningful reflection and change.

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5. The Intersection of Writing and Personal Relationships

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around the delicate balance between Sean’s writing and his personal life. Sean shares a heartfelt anecdote about the feedback from his partner Natasha regarding his work. “She felt protective over her experiences and challenged me not to use her life as a plot device” (19:08), highlighting the inherent tensions when art intersects with real-life relationships.

Natasha expresses concern over the portrayal of intimate experiences, emphasizing the importance of respecting personal boundaries: “Don’t ever think for one second you know how I felt in that moment” (19:27). Sean reflects on this, acknowledging the need to navigate creative freedom responsibly, especially when drawing from personal experiences.

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6. The Therapeutic Nature of Writing

Eddie and Sean explore writing as a tool for emotional processing and personal growth. Eddie shares his own experience: “Writing is my way of dealing with all the shit going on in my body and head” (17:44). Similarly, Sean discusses the perpetual self-examination that accompanies his writing process, striving to balance self-awareness with creative expression.

Sean remarks, “It never ends. The most important thing is to strive to look at yourself and society honestly” (18:40), underscoring the endless journey of self-discovery that writing facilitates.

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7. Challenges and Growth as a Writer

Sean candidly discusses the challenges of receiving feedback from loved ones and the humility required to accept mistakes. When Eddie sought Sean’s perspective on a sensitive piece, Sean was open to revising his work to respect Natasha’s feelings, illustrating his commitment to both his craft and his relationships.

This episode highlights the intricate dance between authenticity in writing and the responsibilities that come with portraying real emotions and experiences. Sean emphasizes the importance of honesty in literature while also recognizing the need to honor the voices and stories of those close to him.

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8. Conclusion: The Essence of Sean’s Literary Vision

Sean Thor Conroe’s interview on Canal Street Dreams offers a profound glimpse into the mind of a novelist who uses his craft to navigate personal and societal complexities. His dedication to authentic storytelling, combined with a keen awareness of the impact of his work on both himself and his loved ones, paints the picture of an artist deeply committed to his vision and growth.

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Notable Quotes:

• Sean Thor Conroe: “He lived a life and he was like, there was a Pinochet regime and stuff... he's always clowning, like, state funded writers.” (05:13)

• Eddie Huang: “My writing is trying to get myself to trust. And that's why in the novel I wrote that I share with you is like the guys always doing logical theorems...” (16:07)

• Sean Thor Conroe: “It's supposed to be a little boy upset at his dad, but... I think you're not skirting the question, but I know you're not.” (27:01)

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Timestamp Key:

• [00:00] – Introduction and initial banter
• [01:02] – Sean’s start in writing
• [05:12] – Literary influences
• [12:20] – Themes in Fuck Boy
• [17:44] – Therapeutic nature of writing
• [19:08] – Feedback from Natasha
• [18:40] – Ongoing self-examination
• [27:01] – Challenges in writing personal experiences

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions between Sean Thor Conroe and the hosts.

Transcript

[Eddie]

I think you're much more aware of like, literary happenings than me, which I like because you're my homie now. I can be. Yo, you know this writer, you know this book?

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah. Like, I mean, what is this? I try to stay out. I try to stay out of it, you know, to do a lot, just be open that. But I get. People tell me about stuff.

[Eddie]

Well, I like it. I like it because you have a knowledge. So then you're able to kind of criticize it and antagonize it.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

And fuck with it.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

I don't even. I don't know enough to engage it. But I do it through you now for.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

For sure. That's good. That's good. Yeah, it's.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

But.

[Eddie]

Yo. Well, welcome Canal Street Dreams. I, Sean Thor Conroe, one of our favorite novelists, the author of Fuck Boy wrote a wonderful piece about a drive by in Harlem at a Chinese spot a couple of weeks ago and also recently wrote an article for the Places Review. So we just. We happy to have you on the show, bro. You big fans of the book.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Thank you. Big fan of you.

[Eddie]

Yeah, thanks, man. Yo, like, so, like, how did you get like, started writing and stuff?

[Sean Thor Conroe]

With the writing stuff? I mean, I went to. I did. I did a writing. Like, I started taking credit writing class in undergrad way back in 2011. 20. 2012. And then for about seven years between 2013 or six years between 2013, 2019, I was just like doing different things, like roaming around. I was like, you know, I tried to walk cross country. I went. I was in Humboldt. I was working, working different places. And I came back to New York in 2019 and I had written like three books already. And then that was when I. That was when I was writing Fuck Boy. And I came to the MFA program at Columbia. And then I also sent my book to this editor giant who does like tyrant books. You know, stuff's been written about it. But he was, yeah, he was just like this kind of like maverick, like, publisher guy, you know, and he. He's just started gassing the book real hard. I was working with him on for a couple years. And then right in 2021, that's when the book sold. It was like he passed away. And then like all these big publishers came and snapped up the book. And that's how Boy came to be. But I've been. Honestly, I've been writing since like, because I played ball in undergrad at Swarthmore, where. That's Worthmore Small D3 School. Like, not. We Were not. They're good now, you know, that was not a good school.

[Eddie]

I was texting you because I was like, oh, he really knows, Bol. Like, there's people. People always try to, like, be homies with me, texting me about the Knicks, and I'm just like. Sometimes I'm really bored of the conversation. I'm like, this is not interesting. I'm, like, deep, deep, deep into this. I'm looking at people's footwork, like, I want to talk. And you are deep.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

I'm standing Kaminga right now. You know, it's a sad day. It's a sad day for the boys this morning. Morning after. After last night. Yeah. But no, no. Yeah. So I.

[Eddie]

You definitely called that Kuminga was gonna ball out the series.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

I said.

[Eddie]

I said, I got the evidence. We'll throw it up.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

They've been. They've been taxing him, dude. He just wanted. I mean, that. To turn down 25mil at age 22 is kind of crazy, though. Yeah, he's wild for that.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Natasha]

But.

[Eddie]

So you were playing ball and then got more writing, so.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah, I was playing ball. I mean, I was in high school, Santa Cruz High. I was. You know, I was like. I was playing on a traveling team in, like, San Jose and stuff. You know, I was going hard on that. And then two years at. In college, like, we were not good. We were. We were pretty ass.

[Eddie]

What's your game like, by the way?

[Sean Thor Conroe]

My game is like. Yo. My game is like. Is like. Is like shoot first point guard. I think I'm AI. You know, all these kids come. You know, got the footwork, like Kyrie and stuff. I came in the AI era, so I was just doing a crossover, just pulling.

[Eddie]

She. She loves AI. She almost named our son Iverson.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Amazing. I mean, that was. Yeah. So, you know, I was like. And then in college, it just. It was like, you know, it's intense school. And, like, partway through that time, it. You know, it just wasn't as fun in college. It was like a job kind of. And we had. And I started reading. Like, I took this. This modernism class where we were with this guy Philip Weinstein at Swarthmore, and we just read, like, they were just throwing books at you. Like, read all of Joyce, read all of Proust.

[Eddie]

School of Swathmont. Is it liberal arts?

[Sean Thor Conroe]

It's liberal arts, but it's like, od intense with the academics. They'll just be like, read this book in a week. And it's like. It's kind of. I mean, I Got pretty alienated from it. I kind of withdrew. I stopped twice. I kind of dropped out twice. But that did send me on, like, just like reading, writing. Honestly, I read Bologna. I don't know if you know who Balano is. He's the sickest. He's like a Chilean novelist. He died in 2004, but he's like, really big. And like, the literature is like. Feels like it's like you can feel that it's like literature. Like, it's like, it's like whatever, hybrid. Like, it's enough high, it's enough mysterious things going on that you can't really write it off. But then he can be, like, really crude and really crass, you know what I'm saying? And he's also just got this whole ethic of like, you have to be away from the library, you have to be away from. He's always, like, clowning, like, state funded writers.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

You know what I'm saying?

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

He lived a life and he was like, there was a Pinochet regime and stuff, you know what I'm saying? Like, down in Chile. And he, He. He just lived through a lot of stuff like that. And I read him. And that kind of set me on a thing where, like, you know, when I was like, walking around country or up in Humboldt doing weed stuff, like, I. I was always writing, but I just got more and more alienated from the institution. And then in 2019, I just, like, came back with a plan and I just, like, had books on me that I'd written, and I was just like. And then I met Gian, and Gian was like, Gian has that ethic of, like, they will write about him in the New York Times, the Washington Post, because they have to. But like, he's always like, kind of like, fuck the, you know, fuck the highbrow shit.

[Eddie]

Do you think you were like, like studied, like you were studying people at first and then you bounced off and came back with your voice? Or do you think you always had your voice and just, like, needed to, like, find it or something?

[Sean Thor Conroe]

You mean in relation to school?

[Eddie]

Yeah. Yeah. Because I think there are a lot of writers that are very, like, studied writers. And then there are people who, like, for instance, I'm not really aware of, like, that many writers. There's people, people. Natasha reads more than me. And she like, put me on the Otessa and I was like, oh, this is fire. She put me on the Emma Klein.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

And then like, you I knew because it's like kind of. It was like Male literature that just like came up in my algorithm. And I was like, oh, this book feels like I'm supposed to read it. And I read. I was like, oh, this is dope.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

You hit me up right when you got it.

[Eddie]

Yeah, I really liked it a lot because it's not like intentionally subverting or breaking form. It's just. I was like, this feels like how words pop up in this guy's mind.

[Natasha]

Yeah, totally.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

And there was no barrier. Cuz I think the art that I really like. I really don't like, studied art. It's super referential and it's like referencing this. And I'm like, dad, yo, forget about it.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

I like the art where the people are taking the walls down in their mind between them and other people.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

I don't know.

[Natasha]

I started reading, boy. But I was busy running around this week, so I was like, let me listen to the audio version.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Nice.

[Natasha]

And just so I can like multitask. We have like a young kid. It's hard. And it kind of felt like I was just like. Had my phone over there, but I was on FaceTime with my friend.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Natasha]

And that. And I like, loved that so much because it didn't feel like I felt so connected to the book and the character and I just. Yeah, it was really easy for me to get in.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah. I mean.

[Eddie]

Or.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah. Like the orality of it, you know, the orality. Someone speaking it like that. That's. That's a lot of, you know, I mean, that's. That's a lot of like the writers that I like. It feels like that, you know I'm saying like there or some kind of. Some kind of naturalistic like flow. You know what I mean? Like I was telling you, like with, with. And that feeling of sharing, you know, because like there's a lot of different forms, like where you could get something from it. Like movies, like music, like literature has to be this like intimate, like, intimate, like space, I feel like. You know what I'm saying? So like. Yeah, I mean, it should. People often be like, you know, oh, it's like, what's his voice? Like people make a big deal about the voice and shit, you know, like, oh, you went to the school. It's like, bro, I read the audiobook. I read the whole audiobook. Like, I read it all. Recently spoke to someone, like, listen to it.

[Eddie]

Yeah. I recently spoke to someone who's like, been a creative director and been a producer and was like, yo, I want to be a writer. And he was like studying Recent writers from the Iowa Writers Program. And I was just like, yo, my man. I don't think, like, that's gonna be the way, like, you kind of just. I think if you can take the walls down in your mind and be honest and truth, like, that's just writing. Writing is just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Natasha]

I also think that in terms of just being a novelist, you can't want to be a writer. You just are. You're. You're gonna write anyways. It's not like this thing where you're like, I want to do it.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Just.

[Natasha]

I don't know about everyone else, but just like, being married to you, it's a sickness. Like, that shit is gonna get out whether or not you like it. Like, he is gonna write any day. It's hit our son's birthday. He's writing. It's your birthday. My birthday. He's right. Like, our son's being born, he's writing. It's just. It's there. I don't think you can be like, I think I'm gonna do that.

[Eddie]

Yeah. It's become my way of dealing with all the shit going on in my body and head.

[Natasha]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

Just like, I can't see it, but if I write it down, I'm feeling it, I'm processing it. I'm digesting. And then I can understand.

[Natasha]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

Like, I have to get the poison out in this weird way.

[Natasha]

What I think is alternative, like, on the opposite side of the spectrum. For me, reading does that. I don't know that I have so much. Like, for me, if I feel shame or some, like, reading something where I'm can connect with the person, I'm like, oh, that resolves it for me. I feel less alone.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Natasha]

Which is cool, because I like to experience that.

[Eddie]

She noticed something reading Fuckboy that was really. Fire one was. She was like, yo, Eddie, I know you've read this, but you need to listen to Sean read it, because it's a different experience. It's like. It's just a different book.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

The second thing was, she was like, yo, I just love how much shame this character has and how hard he is on himself. And I was like, you know, it's funny. Cause when I read it, it didn't necessarily pop up in my head.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Interesting.

[Eddie]

But when she said it, it really hit for me. Because when I talk to you about writing, you're kind of like the guy I just like to talk to about writing right now. You're always like, yo, Eddie, check out this book. This person really Goes in on themselves. Like the Sarah book.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah, Sarah book.

[Eddie]

And when I gave you, like, the stuff I've been writing, you would send me back screenshots. And it's like, yo, I really like this. You really work in on yourself.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Exactly, exactly.

[Eddie]

And I was like, yo, Sean uses writing in this way to kind of go in on himself. It's like a confessional. It's really ill.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

There's a confessional element to it. I mean, now scarred Carl of Naus Guard that the Norwegian writer. I don't know if you read my. My struggle books. It's. It's. It's kind of. I mean, he's like the one who just goes OD with that, where he's just like. It's. It's. Yeah, he's kind of like, yeah, going into all the shameful aspects of himself. But it's. It's not just like. It's not just like. Or the Sarah book like you're talking about, which is dude from West Virginia who just had like a terrible. Sarah's name of his ex wife. And he had like a terrible, like, divorce. Like, in the beginning, he's like.

[Eddie]

He recommended. I was like, I cannot read this right now. Cause I'm in a great relationship. The book looks really good. If you're divorcing. You got probably read. Read this book this morning.

[Natasha]

We should read it together. Yeah, you should read it together like a book. And show up every week and be like this. Sarah was really onto something here.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah, exactly. He in the. He in the Walmart parking lot, like, drinking. Like, she kicked him out. And then like, he's like. Has to pick up his kids and he's like, drunk driving. It's crazy. It's crazy. But it's also spoken. But his. His vernacular is like, West Virginia. He's from Beckley, West Virginia. It's like very. It's like. It's like an oral flow, you know, and it's like. It looks weird on the page, you know, but like, that's. But yeah, it's not just. I mean, I think the idea is. And the reason why I feel like the book can be upsetting to some people, especially like, bros who think they're the best guys in the world. Is what it does. Is it kind of implicates you. It makes you look at yourself. That's the idea. And then you're playing with it. And so it's not just. It's not just everyone feel my. My trust. Not like a trauma dump, because it's like you're Trying to find a. A resurrection. And you're also, like, thinking about the bigger resonances of it. You know what I'm saying?

[Eddie]

Do you think in your writing, like, generally that there's a consistent, like, thing or emotion or, like, theme that you're just, like, constantly working through, like, subconsciously?

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Well, I. I make the case that, like, lately I've been doing a riff where, like, I'm, like, a romance writer. Like, all good stories have to do with, like, I don't know, like, love and intimacy and the struggles of that. You know, I'm saying. So I'm always looking. I mean, even with the piece I wrote for you, like, I was like, I've written a million, like, essays. I was like, I gotta make this hit. Like, and I gotta, like, frame it in, like, some type of dynamic, you know, intimate relationship dynamic. But the thing is, all good literature is like, that. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was running back, like, you know, I was running back Ulysses by James Joyce for this. For this pod. I know it sounds lame as hell, but.

[Eddie]

No, it's gonna make the case.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Let me make the case. I mean, that's. That's what that book is about. That's a dude whose wife is cheating on him, and he knows she's cheating on him, and he has to go about his day and try to. And try to still. He's like, just try to be a chill guy about it. Like. And he's, like, shocked, and he's going about his day, and he goes into. You know, he goes, what do you do if you know your wife's cheating on you and she's gonna do it anyway? And what happens is they had a kid and he died at 11 days old. At 11 days old. 11 years before the day of the novel. And, yeah, and he feels guilty because he feels like it was his fault, you know? So that's why he's like, molly, you can do whatever. What do you want for breakfast? She's like, give me that letter. She's like, whatever, give me that letter. That's from the guy. She's. Fuck. And he goes about his day. He tries to do some errands. He goes on the beach. He sees this woman, and they start looking at each other. He jerks off on the beach. This is what Yusi's about.

[Eddie]

It's totally like, damn, that's where moonlight got her from.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah, that's where moonlight got her from.

[Eddie]

Throwing milkshakes on the beach, yo.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

But anyway, like, you know, and there's all kinds of shames. He goes to a whorehouse at the end of the night and, like, all the sins of his past come back. But he tries to be like a good father for this other character who's kind of like the joy stand in, who just lost his mom. So there's like, you know, all these baseline things that like family relationships and, like, Earnest trying to look at. Because there's a lot of family stuff in Fuckboy too. You know what I'm saying? Kind of like you write about your parents a lot too, and you look at those intimate relationships and are unsparing with yourself about it. So that's what. That's a space. This is. Literature is a space to look at those things and help other people look at those things in themselves.

[Eddie]

I feel like it's interesting. There was a woman on kcrw, I think her name is Evan, that recommended James Joyce to me.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Okay. Yeah.

[Eddie]

After I wrote Fresh off the Book, she was like, yo, you would like this because it's kind of like sorted and it has to do with family.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

And I never got around, but now I'm a peep.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah, yeah.

[Eddie]

It's a classic. Like, I'm aware.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

No, but it's like. I mean, it's so od. Like, the form is so, so. So it's like you got to be a little bit. You got to be a little masochistic. They want to go in on it. But you can. You can read a couple guys, listen to the audio. You know what I'm saying?

[Eddie]

Yeah. Because I noticed you when I talked about you, like, the writers that are just going in on themselves and holding up a mirror and making themselves and.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Going in on the things that are, like, like are like, upsetting or like that society, like, the culture needs to look at. You know what I mean? Like, like, that's what the point of it. You know what I mean? Like, looking at these, like, ugly things that. I feel like every literature, literary movement needs to, like, expand, like the voice that's allowed to be in literature. The. The difficult things to look at that are be looked at, you know what I'm saying? And it should be kind of. It should kind of shake you. I, you know, I feel like what.

[Eddie]

Are the things personally that you think you're looking at through, like, a lot of your, like, the shit that you don't like about yourself? And, And I. I can even go first, right? I'll go first. So it's not just me asking you, but it's like, I, I subconsciously, I think When I, When I look at stuff I've written and I go backwards, I think what I'm always struggling with is that I really love people. And I also love culture and the things that people create. But then I'm also extremely aware of the things that people have done to me and the things that their creations have done to, like, the world. And I'm always. My heart is in trusting and loving people and building connections and relationships. But I'm so fucking scared. And I think all of my writing and my process of writing is trying to get myself to trust. And that's why in the novel I wrote that I share with you is like the guys always doing logical theorems of like, okay, okay, okay. If they said that and you did, then, then that's a good person. I could trust them, right? And ultimately it's like I met Natasha and just jumped and I jumped and it was the best choice I made. And it got scary. There were days where like, when shit got bad, I drove to OC and just sat in like a home goods parking lot with my dad and was like, bro, what am I gonna do? Like, I don't know if it'll work out. I don't know what's happening. And like, you get really scared. But my writing is that it's like convincing myself to trust people.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

Cause I want to, but is there anything like that you may not?

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Definitely. Definitely, bro. I mean, and it's so funny because, like, I feel like it never ends. It never gets like, you know, like. And as soon as. Oh yeah, I wrote this book. Oh yeah, I wrote about all the bad things I did. You know, I'm so stuck, self aware now. Then the next day, you know, you back, you back.

[Natasha]

Straight up, you back.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

You know what I'm saying? So it's not. But it's also the most important. It's most. It's the most important, like, question. It's the most important, like, thing to strive to. Like, that's why James Joyce goes to that extreme. I'm like, I can't go that far. She's over here. That's crazy. Like, you're all like, you know, you know, you're just straight. It's just. He's just getting cucked and he doesn't. It's okay. It's crazy. But. But then the last chapter is from her perspective and it's all one long sentence and she's like ranting and she's like. And she's talking about Blaze is boiling this other guy. She's Fucking. And then. But he's. And then he's next to her.

[Eddie]

This is crazy. Cause my novel originally would flip to her point of view, and I got notes and feedback that's like, yo, don't flip to her side. Well, I really think it should, for one.

[Natasha]

I really didn't like it, though.

[Eddie]

Oh, okay.

[Natasha]

Because it was just too close. I mean, however, whatever. But there was just some things that had happened that were deeply, deeply, deeply intimate. Like the worst thing that's ever happened to me in my life and then having it be told by someone else in what they think. My perspective was like, I was about to fight him. Like, he. He let me read it and I was like, square up, straight up. I was like, let's fight. Let's literally punt. Like, let's. I was like, I will fight you.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Did you want him to write it differently?

[Natasha]

No, I was just like, don't ever think for one second you know how I felt in that moment. And you never will. Like, I'm not a writer. I will never be able to articulate it. So, no, I don't know. I felt protective over it, and I just felt protective over my experience and perspective and which. The idea of people reading that and it being. And not knowing the truth of whatever the. In the ether for me, and that doesn't exist or I don't want to put words to it.

[Eddie]

Yeah.

[Natasha]

It's an idea for me.

[Eddie]

But that's real relationship with a writer who's writing about real life.

[Natasha]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

You know, and I remember when it happened, and it was like, I was really disappointed. I wouldn't say I was. I wasn't upset. I was, like, disappointed because I was like, I knew why I wrote it, and I knew what I was feeling and I knew what I was doing. It's fiction, too.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Natasha]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

But then I also was like, yo, what she's saying is completely valid. It's just tough life stuff in a relationship as a writer. And it's real. I took it out because I. I understand what she's saying. I agree with her.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

And. But it's just interesting, the places and conundrums that, like, being a writer in a real relationship where you're going for, like, we go for it. Like, we do romance. We're, like, really trying to be intimate at all times. It's crazy, like, where this stuff leads you.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah. No, I mean, that's navigating. That is equally a part of. Of has become equally like a part of my project or even folding it into the writing. Like Question. I mean, yeah, there's all kind. I mean, that's why people come up with these fictional structures and in different ways. And that's the thing. It's funny, like, there. People are always on stuff about. I mean, obviously, like, I was playing with that. Like, I named the narrator, like, my name, put my damn face on the COVID You know, I'm saying. So people are like, oh, this is you. But I want you to feel like that for the intimacy. But then there's, like, things you're doing that are playing with that and creating distance and making it, like, a theoretical thing, too, because it's like, I think I just did, like, an interview for this Romanian magazine. They're like, why does he. Why does he, like, claim. He, like, why is he, like, claim to be a fuck boy? Like, he's not. He's not claiming, like.

[Eddie]

Yeah, that's the.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

That's the theoretical structure of the book. You know what I'm saying? I don't know. But, yeah, it's. That's a real. That's a real thing too.

[Eddie]

You know, it was a real lesson to just, like, you know, I think as a writer, artist, any form, you just want complete freedom and liberal ability to, like, play with anything. But there's certain shit of people close to you where it's just, like, not your right to play with it. And I. I had to acknowledge that and accept it and know I, like, made a mistake. And that's just like, growing as a person. I was embarrassed, I think. I think I was really. I was disappointed that what I intended had not come out correctly. Then I was embarrassed. I had not thought about the things she was feeling in that way. And then I was just like, there's nothing you can do. Like, you're gonna make mistakes. You just. You apologize, you make it better, you move on. But that's like growing, man. Like embarrassment.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Damn.

[Natasha]

Yeah.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Natasha]

Well, I was just gonna say on that tip. I think I also had to just learn a lesson of. That's your process. You write about everything. And I have to accept that if I want to be in this relationship, too, that some things that I think I can protect are off limits. It's also your perspective, and you were in a relationship. We try to experience everything together. So if it's something that has to do with me, but it's also yours, I have to just, like, accept that and give that up. And if I. If I want to tell people how I experienced it, that's my duty. But, like, you can do whatever you want.

[Eddie]

Yeah. The first shit that popped in my head was like, you're limiting the ability to write. And then I was like, yo, yo, yo, yo. That's, like, very small man thinking.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

And I was just like, yo, she. She's asking. She's basically telling me, this hurts my feelings. If you can, like, write this book without this, maybe, you know, like, maybe don't twist my experience for a plot device. And I was like, that's just, like, really fair. Yeah, that's just, like, ultimately fair.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

You know, you read.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

You. So you. You read all this stuff as. As he's writing it?

[Natasha]

Yeah, yeah. Whatever he sends. I'll try to read fairly quickly.

[Eddie]

But.

[Natasha]

Yeah, I love reading. I mean, like, early on in our relationship, he had sent me a lot of stuff he was writing. And I think it's just, like. I don't know. It's always been a part of our relationship.

[Eddie]

It's kind of how I talk to her.

[Natasha]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

You know, like, there's certain things.

[Natasha]

There's a language in there.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah. Oh, I see. Through the writing, of course. Yeah.

[Eddie]

It's not direct, but there's, like. You can say things on a daily basis. I love you, yo. I express this.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Right.

[Eddie]

But when you can create a scenario or paint a picture of it.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

In this way, it's actually more clear and direct and, like, honest to the feeling. So pretty much everything I write since I've met her is communicating something.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

To her. Yeah.

[Natasha]

It's like sending a song.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Natasha]

You know when you're, like, listening to a song and you're like, oh, like, I feel this way and I want to tell this person, and, like, if I send it to them, maybe they'll be as crazy as I am and, like, dissect the whole thing.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Natasha]

We communicate in that.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

I go through. I go through that where I'm always, like. I'm always trying to, like, look at my past, like, excavate my past, and like. And then, like. But then. Yeah, life's always moving. Then you're in a relationship, and then they're like, you. Why aren't you writing only about me?

[Eddie]

You didn't answer the question, though. What is a shitty thing? Like, you're working out as a. Like, in your writing, what do you think is something that you're, like. You struggle with eternally? I'm just curious.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, it was funny. I was. I was writing that piece for you. You know, the place is peace, and, like, I'm all, like. I'm all, like, leading I'm all trying to, like, take. Take Amelia out to, like, a restaurant or something and trying to be like, a good, assertive man. And, like. And then she had this. She had this rift me where she was like. Like, one time we were walking around and, like, I was kind of, like, gonna go somewhere. It was kind of. It was kind of far. We were trying to go to this park, but then it was the wrong park in Shinjuku. Like, I was like, damn, it was the other park I'm at. And she, like, wanted to go shopping and stuff. And I was like, let's just go to this park for a second. I need to, like, drink some coffee and smoke some cigs, you know. Like, the day. It was, like, overwhelming me, and then she, like, stopped. She was like, this is like your whole thing. You just, like. You try to, like, lead. Lead me somewhere. And then in your head, you're all, like, judging yourself for, like, not leading you. Correct. But you know, being a good, you know, being. I mean, being. I don't know. It sounds. It sounds corny, but just like being like, you know, like a solid. Solid. A solid. A solid guy, you know?

[Eddie]

No, it's not corny at all.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

And with, you know, I'm trying to. Just trying to live with, you know, integrity and. I don't know. And then, you know, that requires looking at, you know, again, like, your family, your dad, you know, your relationship with your parents, you know, and spiraling out from that, you know, like, I got to go on. On the second part of this. This. This places piece because it was the most time I spent with my dad, like, like in mad long. But it was like. It was funny. It was like, I'm at the. I'm like ascended to a higher level where I just, like. Nothing he was doing was upsetting me. Like, everything was. I was just like, he's just like a funny guy. Like, I was just like. It was. It was just like. It was. It was kind of. It was kind of glowed. It was sick. I was just like, yeah, this is the next level. I've done enough. Like, yo, my, like, you know, fuck boy is like. Because fuck boy is supposed to be a little. You know, a young boy is upset at his dad, you know, or else it wouldn't be the novel, but. Yeah, I don't know if that. I'm skirting the question, but I know you're not.

[Eddie]

That is. That is it. I do notice the theme of you really want to do well and write by everybody around you, like, whether it's Fuckboy. The place is peace.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

You know, I really like the Drive by piece because it feels like it's just like a different style of writing for you, but in the, like, really serious meteor stuff.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

There is this, like, constant judging of yourself that comes from a really good place of just, like, wanting to do right.

[Sean Thor Conroe]

Yeah.

[Eddie]

And then it spins you out. That is the end of the free preview of this week's episode. For the full paid version, please consider becoming a paid subscriber on our substack Canal Street Dreams. Thank you.

[Chris Gethard]

Hi, I'm Chris Gethard, and I'm very excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous, a podcast where I talk to random people on the phone. I tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people try to call, talk to one of them. They stay anonymous. I can't hang up. That's all the rules. I never know what's gonna happen. We get serious ones. I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison. I've talked to people who survived mass shootings. Crazy, funny ones. I talked to a guy with a goose slap, somebody who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends. I never know what's gonna happen. It's a great show. Subscribe today. Beautiful Anonymous.