A Horror Movie Halloween Special: The Dread Under the Bed

Summary

Cannonball with Wesley Morris

Episode: A Horror Movie Halloween Special: The Dread Under the Bed

Date: October 23, 2025
Host: Wesley Morris
Guest: Eric Hynes (Director of Film Curation and Programming at the Jacob Burns Film Center)

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Episode Overview

Wesley Morris, film critic for The New York Times, sits down with his friend Eric Hynes for a Halloween special to dig deep into the specific emotion at the heart of great horror movies: dread. Together, they explore how dread operates differently from suspense, dissect formative childhood experiences with horror, and analyze how dread transcends the genre, influencing cinema as a whole. The discussion ranges from personal anecdotes and classic films to recent releases and broader trends in American filmmaking.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Makes Horror Work: The Centrality of Dread

[00:35–04:19]

• Wesley sets the scene: His favorite horror movies aren’t about gore; what matters is cultivating a distinct emotional state—dread.
  • "Blood is not a feeling. You know what is a feeling though? Dread." — Wesley [01:30]
• Eric explains why he’s cautious about horror as a genre:
  • "I'm such a visual person that when horrific images are shown to me, I experience them as if they're real and they don't go away." — Eric [02:44]
• Distinguishing dread from suspense:
  • Eric: "Suspense is basically something where you actually know exactly what's going to happen... Whereas dread is much more kind of existential. It's much more kind of like 'something, something, something.' Don’t know what it is, but something." [04:30–04:58]
  • Wesley: "Suspense is: you have the information. Dread is: you don't." [05:07]

2. Childhood Encounters: Dread’s Lasting Impact

[06:12–13:17]

• Formative horror moments that shaped Eric and Wesley’s relationship to dread:
  • Poltergeist (the "boy and the tree" scene), The Shining, and sleepover horror movie nights.
  • Eric recalls being traumatized by low-budget 80s horror: "Honestly, the fact that it was so low rent was probably—was so scary to me. Because that feeling early on... you almost immediately thought it was real." [11:50]
  • Wesley: "I wouldn't sleep near a window that had a tree... I didn't sleep." [07:03]
• Dread as a formative, physical experience:
  • Eric: "For years, when I went to bed I had to have all of my body covered by the sheets because if there was anything exposed, it was somehow vulnerable to attack." [07:10]

3. Dread and Space: Haunted Houses, Woods, and the Violation of Innocent Places

[09:55–14:07]

• The Shining is dissected as a masterwork of dread within the domestic space:
  • Eric: "There's something so fundamental about it... To be trapped in a house with [your parents] can be terrifying." [08:55]
• How horror films alter your relationship to ordinary spaces:
  • Wesley: "After I saw Psycho, I wouldn't close the curtain." [28:01]

4. Dread Beyond Childhood: Adult Movie-Going and New Terrors

[15:06–33:23]

• Examination of how dread persists into adulthood, with examples old and new:
  • Rosemary's Baby is highlighted as the ultimate dread movie.
    • "I think [Rosemary's Baby] is a masterpiece of what we are talking about where the entire movie is built toward answering this question of what the hell is going on with this pregnancy." — Wesley [15:09]
    • "What this gets is that 95% of what she's experiencing is regular. It's relatable... And then it happens to be at the very end. No, actually, you have a demon seed." — Eric [21:24]
  • Trouble Every Day—how sexual vulnerability and desire are mapped onto horror and dread.
    • Eric: "To me, it’s vulnerable. It's always vulnerability... when you are submitting yourself sexually... you're submitting yourself to another person to do something to your body." [26:49]
  • Weapons—recent film that elicits nearly continual dread.
    • Wesley: "This movie is almost entirely a dreadgasm." [29:00]
    • On a standout sequence: "So your sense of dread kicks in. And I think motion and silence are really important to this feeling." [30:07]

5. Dread Across Genres: It’s Not Just for Horror

[37:36–49:38]

• Dread is described as "free-floating" and existential, shaping films across genres:
  • Wesley reads Eric's prior writing on The Texas Chainsaw Massacre: "It reveals this indirectly because death hardly occurs in the film. What occurs is death suspended, death delayed, which is frustratingly, terrifyingly unsatisfying." [36:50]
• Examples outside of traditional horror:
  • Uncut Gems — constant dread for the protagonist’s life.
    • "The thing that I am crazy about with Uncut Gems is how terrified I am that Adam Sandler is gonna die." — Wesley [39:01]
  • The Piano Teacher — emotional and physical dread culminating for both characters and audience.
    • Eric: "It's the only film I've ever fainted watching... I was so physically engaged." [41:06]
  • The Conversation — paranoia thriller where suspense and dread merge.
    • Key scene with Gene Hackman and the infamous bloody toilet: "To this day, Eric Hines, I live in dread of an overflowing toilet." — Wesley [48:36]

6. The 1970s: The Golden Age of Cinematic Dread

[42:58–45:23]

• Wesley proposes that if 1950s films were about love, and the 1940s about heroism, the 1970s were about dread:
  • "Dread is to the 70s... every single movie, even the musicals and the comedies… you couldn't go to them and not be like, 'Oh my God, what is Blacula about to do?'" — Wesley [43:00]
• The period’s masterpieces: Texas Chainsaw Massacre, The Omen, The Exorcist, Don’t Look Now, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, The Conversation.

7. The Present and Future of Dread in Cinema

[49:38–52:17]

• Is contemporary cinema experiencing a drought or transformation of dread?
  • Eric: "Are we beyond the sense of comparison? Are we in some place now where a metaphor feels like we're wasting our time... I don't think we've actually gotten there yet."
  • New films like Sinners are cited as novel approaches to genre and emotional resonance.
  • On collective uncertainty: "What is the future gonna look like? How do we articulate that?" — Wesley [52:16]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Blood is not a feeling. You know what is a feeling though? Dread."
  — Wesley [01:30]

• "Suspense is: you have the information. Dread is: you don't."
  — Wesley [05:07]

• "For years, when I went to bed I had to have all of my body covered by the sheets because if there was anything exposed, it was somehow, like, vulnerable to attack."
  — Eric [07:10]

• "What this gets is that 95% of what she's experiencing is regular. It's relatable. But people who are pregnant… and then it happens to be at the very end. No, actually, you have a demon seed."
  — Eric on Rosemary’s Baby [21:24]

• "To me, it’s vulnerable. It's always vulnerability. In some ways, you're vulnerable... when you are submitting yourself sexually. Right. You’re submitting yourself to another person to do something to your body."
  — Eric on Trouble Every Day [26:49]

• "This movie is almost entirely a dreadgasm."
  — Wesley on Weapons [29:00]

• "It reveals this indirectly because death hardly occurs in the film. What occurs is death suspended, death delayed, which is frustratingly, terrifyingly unsatisfying."
  — Quoting Eric on The Texas Chainsaw Massacre [36:50]

• "The thing that I am crazy about with Uncut Gems is how terrified I am that Adam Sandler is gonna die."
  — Wesley [39:01]

• "It's the only film I've ever fainted watching."
  — Eric on The Piano Teacher [41:06]

• "Dread is to the 70s... every single movie, even the musicals and the comedies… you couldn't go to them and not be like, 'Oh my God, what is Blacula about to do?'"
  — Wesley [43:00]

• On the bloody toilet scene in The Conversation:
  "To this day, Eric Hines, I live in dread of an overflowing toilet. I really live in dread of it."
  — Wesley [48:36]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-------------|------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:35–02:44 | Wesley’s take on horror and dread; intro to Eric | | 04:19–05:27 | Distinguishing Dread from Suspense | | 06:12–09:55 | Childhood experiences with horror (“Poltergeist,” etc.) | | 15:06–21:47 | “Rosemary’s Baby” and the archetype of cinematic dread | | 21:47–28:01 | “Trouble Every Day”—dread, sexuality, vulnerability | | 29:00–33:23 | “Weapons”—modern dread, notable scene breakdown | | 37:36–41:06 | Dread outside horror: “Uncut Gems,” “The Piano Teacher” | | 45:23–49:38 | The 1970s: Era of Dread in Cinema, “The Conversation” | | 49:38–52:17 | The future of dread in film; current trends | | 52:17–53:23 | Top 3 horror movies (Texas Chainsaw, Shining, The Thing) |

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Top 3 Horror/Scary Movies — The Guest’s Picks

[52:17–53:23]

1. Texas Chainsaw Massacre
2. The Shining
3. The Thing

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Tone & Flow

The conversation is insightful but playful, with Wesley’s signature blend of humor, intelligence, and personal reflection. There’s a warm rapport with Eric; academic analysis sits side-by-side with vulnerable confession and pop culture references. The tone remains conversational and candid, inviting listeners to connect with both the intellectual and emotional experiences of cinema.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This episode is an engrossing, accessible window into why horror movies matter—particularly the elusive, unnerving feeling of dread that lingers long after the end credits. You’ll understand how childhood fears morph into grown-up anxieties, see the technical and emotional genius in classics old and new, and receive an entertaining crash course in horror and dread’s role in broader film culture. Whether you’re a die-hard horror fan or can’t stand scary movies, this is a thoughtful, funny, and deeply human discussion you’ll relate to.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I'm Wesley Morris and this is Cannonball Today. Boo. Boo. No, you can save your boos for somebody who cares. Listen, I love a good horror movie, but it's gotta be done right. I have needs. Don't be trying to jump scare me for no reason. I do not consent. Don't be goosing me with your scares with sound effects because your camera and script don't have the goods. What I like in a horror movie, what I need isn't blood or evisceration. Although the quality I do need could involve gadgets of gore. I need a very specific feeling. And blood. Blood is not a feeling. You know what is a feeling though? Dread. Basically. How afraid am I that this movie is going to show me something terrible? And how long do I have to wait to find out? That's what I love in a good horror movie. But you don't need to be watching a horror movie to experience that. So I brought my friend Eric Hinds in to try to think through the pleasures of dread. Eric's the director of film curation and programming at the Jacob Burns Film center, about an hour away from where we are sitting right now in New York City in Pleasantville, New York. Eric Wesley, you came back to Cannonball.

[C]

Of course.

[B]

You're crazy. Welcome back.

[C]

It's so good to be back.

[B]

Okay, so I had this idea. Well, no, I didn't have this idea. This was not my idea. I don't want to talk about horror movies. But it's Halloween, so. So we're gonna check the box that basically says Halloween scary movies. But I mean, I guess we should talk a little bit about like what they are and how we feel about them.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

Which is how, Eric, I mean. Cause I know you, in my experience, you've avoided them not as a qualitative judgment, but as a constitutional situation.

[C]

As a constitutional situation. I mean, I've seen my fair share of horror. I have to. And I enjoy also. My thing is just I'm such a visual person that when horrific images are Shown to me, I experience them as if they're real and they don't go away. And so I have to be just mindful of that. Yeah, because you don't want to necessarily, like, just have. Oh, let's just fuck it. Let's just watch everything and see everything. And then I just walk around like this. It's not quite. Quite safe to do that, really, you know, so I'm just very aware of, like, what the impression of certain images have on me. Which is why I've always been kind of a little bit cautious because of it. Because I just know how powerful it is. I mean, to me, this is a recommendation for how successful great horror films can be. Is they can make you feel these things as if they were real.

[B]

But I wanted to sort of think through just the whatever. Whatever it is about any movie that, you know, typically can be found in a horror movie that I love about watching these things. And it is dread, the anticipation of what is going to happen. Because a movie is telling you that something will. Not the marketing department, not the posters, but the movie. The world of the movie itself is saying something out there. And we're gonna show you, but we're not gonna tell you when. But eventually it's gonna come out and get you. So do you know what I'm talking about?

[C]

I do, I do. But it makes me want to also just briefly talk about Dread in relation to suspense, which I think is different.

[B]

We gotta make the distinction.

[C]

Yes. Make the distinction.

[D]

No.

[C]

Because say, Hitchcock is like master of suspense or that's the sort of name he was given. But I think suspense is basically something where you actually know exactly what's going to happen.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Do you know the thing that is in the next room you're being shown? And so it's that we're suspending time for a moment before the thing that you know is gonna happen is gonna happen.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Whereas dread is much more kind of existential. It's much more kind of like something, something, something. Don't know what it is, but something.

[B]

And I think that the confusion of those two experiences. Cause they're related, right?

[C]

Totally.

[B]

Like, you know, suspense is. You have the information. Dread is. You don't. You are either you as a moviegoer are piecing together what is happening or you are watching somebody figure out what is happening because you have a little more information than they do, but you don't have everything.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And then with a good version of this, the movie is kind of fucking with you a little bit. It's gonna Change your relationship to the real world. You have had an experience that felt really real to you or what's even crazier is when a movie confirms a fear or a curiosity that you've had with the worst case scenario. I'm wondering, is there a movie you saw that when it was over you could no longer function in the real world in the same way with an experience that relates to something you saw in the movie?

[C]

That's a great question. I mean, I feel like. I mean, for me, as a young child, I was exposed to things I shouldn't have been exposed to as we all weren't.

[B]

We were.

[C]

I mean, but I'm just old enough to be too old for the first wave of PG13. So I was in the audience for the PG presentation of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and the PG presentation of Poltergeist and Gremlins and all of these. So I saw them. And there are things like, you know, I think in the Poltergeist scene with the boy and the tree outside the window.

[B]

Oh, my God. One, one thousand, two, one thousand, three, one thousand. It's just a tree.

[C]

It's just a tree. No, but it's a monster. So anything like that.

[B]

I wouldn't sleep near a window that had a tree. I mean, I had no choice a lot of times, but I didn't sleep.

[C]

I, I, I, I had this thing where, like, I. For years, when I went to bed I had to have all of my body covered by the sheets because if there was anything exposed, it was somehow, like, vulnerable to attack, to somebody, to some attack.

[B]

Where did you get that from?

[C]

It must have been something like this. It must have been something like Poltergeist or some other scene that I don't even. In a film that I don't even remember. But this idea that you are. Because what it comes down to is vulnerability.

[B]

All right, so I will offer you another formative childhood moviegoing experience with respect to. To these. To our dread concerns. And it is basically, you know, it's one that I think a lot of people have when they see it early enough. And it's the Shining.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like the. Figuring out what is going on in this movie. There is a kid involved. And I think there's something about children being involved in a lot of ways. I mean, a lot of these movies aren't told from the point of view of a child, but they involve children.

[C]

I think we have to get Danny out of here. Get him out of here.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

You mean just leave the hotel.

[B]

The dread is about what is happening to this kid and his mother in this giant house.

[C]

Well, there's something so fundamental about it, Right. You're stuck in a house, you're cooped up. It's winter. You know, it's like there's so many things you can relate to, like there's a blizzard and school's canceled, and you're trapped in a house with your parents. And maybe you love your parents, but also, probably in some way, you fear your parents. Also, your parents probably are adulting and may seem crazy at times, and to be trapped in a house with them can be terrifying. So there's something about the Shining that I feel like taps into that.

[B]

When you tell it from Dani's point of view, like the way you just did, I'm like, oh, wow. That's what that movie's about?

[C]

Well, it's partly right.

[B]

No, I mean, I love that. Anyway, that's me. I had a hard time being. I went to a school where the buildings were pretty much like the Overlook Hotel, and there's a lot of time to be in big buildings alone. And I just thought, well, clearly something's coming down these steps at some point.

[C]

Which is amazing about horror. Right. Because horror, it's basically. He's identifying that spaces like that can feel haunted and spooky.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Putting it into a film in an incredibly effective way, and then you seeing it and then going into your high school and feeling the thing that you saw in the film. But the film comes from the original place of just. These are haunted spaces.

[B]

Yeah. And I think the ways in which a lot of these movies can haunt space, like the domestic space, your house, your car, the woods. Right. Classically, the woods.

[C]

Right.

[B]

But, I mean, that is a different configuration of the violation of what I would describe as neutral or innocent space. But wait, is there. Can you be a kid again?

[C]

And you're gonna keep us in the woods, aren't you?

[B]

No. Well, I mean, only if you want to. I mean, do you have one from the woods? Because that is. That's the space where, you know, I mean, it's just, like, a classically scary place to be. And the horror movies know that.

[C]

Oh, man, I don't even remember the. So I was on a sleepover. I don't even remember which friend it was, you know, 80s Staten island, and it was a sleepover, but it was one of those things where there was, like, my kids my age on a sleepover, and then there was, like, the brothers, you know, or the brother and his Friends who was like three or four years older. Okay. And this is early VCR time. So of course we're all gonna hang out and watch movies. And the TV was being controlled by the kids who were a little bit older and they were watching some low rent horror movie on the vcr. And I was terrified of everything. At that age. I'm not looking to see anything. But there I was at a sleepover. I didn't want to be the kid who was gonna go hide in the corner. I'm gonna sit there and hang out.

[B]

Did you wanna seem cool or are you just.

[C]

Just not like a wimp. Not like a wuss. Like I needed to just be there, but I also didn't know what I'm gonna see, which is this sense of like. I was like, what am I about to watch? This looks. And honestly, the fact that it was so low rent was probably. Was so scary to me. Because that feeling early on, at least for people my age, in terms of watching things on the VCR that seemed low rent.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

You almost immediately thought it was real. Like maybe this happened to somebody. Because it looked like just a videotape anyway. And it was basically guys on a sleepover camped out at campsite. And then some Sasquatch figure comes in and grabs the sleeping bag and swings it over his head.

[B]

Is this Night of the Demon?

[C]

I have no Wesson. Is this Night of the Demon? I don't want to know. Okay, but maybe I don't know anyway. And then he lets go of the sleeping bag. And the sleeping bag then just lands on just a big twig and he's fully impaled on the big. So he becomes like this hot dog sausage on a thing. And like, honestly, I don't think I ever zipped up a sleeping bag for the rest of my life as a child. Because if you're gonna be in a sleeping bag, you are. Then you are trapped and a big Sasquatch is gonna come round and throw your sleeping bag onto a stick.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one. Cause that's very personal.

[C]

Same movie also, again, there was two scenes I saw and probably I saw about three minutes worth of movie. Guy goes to pee in the woods and Sasquatch takes care of him mid pee.

[B]

Oh no.

[C]

Which is another such animal.

[B]

Such an 80s thing to do. Like the boogeymen were such assholes.

[C]

They were assholes. I know. For no reason.

[B]

Jason and Freddy was explicitly an asshole.

[C]

I see.

[F]

You can help.

[C]

Tell them Freddy sent ya.

[B]

But those Movies were really effective. Right. Like Nightmare on Elm Street. Like, I mean, the dread is kind of built into the premise. Like you cannot fall asleep.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Lest you spend some time with Freddy Krueger, who will definitely kill you.

[C]

Which is a fantastic conceit. It's so good.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes. Okay, so you and I have been talking a lot about the ways in which dread functions or has functioned and our childhoods. But I think what would be useful here is to, like, work through this now not as memories, but as, I don't know, some movie watching forensics where the two of us just will. Let's just talk about some things that our adult selves have seen and still have experienced Dread, because it's not like the quality of the dread changes from being a kid to being an adult. But I think. I think you and I sitting here now can appreciate and articulate what dread is doing in these movies in a way that we could never have done as kids. Yeah, I'll go first. I'm just gonna just go straight for like a mega classic.

[C]

Great.

[B]

It's Rosemary's Baby.

[C]

Oh, hell yeah.

[B]

La la la la la la la la la la la la. So the reason I picked this movie is because I think it is a masterpiece of what we are talking about where the entire movie is built toward answering this question of what the hell is going on with this pregnancy. And it checks so many boxes of what we're talking about with respect to dread and horror. Because the horror here, it takes the entire movie to declare itself. Right. There's a sequence to just sort of set it all up. A couple moves into a New York apartment, yada, yada, yada, she's pregnant. And we encounter the pregnancy. The consummation happens in a dream sequence. Now, in the dream sequence, we have seen the devil. We have seen a creature, I don't know, mount her. And it's a terrifying sequence of events. But you can kind of just be like, I don't know, just seems like a dream. Except at some point Rosemary's like, this is really happening. But anyway, it doesn't matter because the thing I want to talk about is the way this movie is building to her understanding that whatever is going on in her body is not right, something is wrong. Are her neighbors up to something? Is her husband in on it? And to me, the moment where I was like, oh, Lord, I guess we're just gonna have to find out where this is going is the moment she makes the phone call to an actor who lost, who mysteriously was injured. So that her husband Guy could have this big part and his career starts to take off and she's like, I wonder if that man going blind is connected to my pregnancy. So she calls him. We should. Let's just watch. This is Rosemary's baby, Roman Polanski, 1968. So she's got this witchcraft book. She's just really doing some reading about the things you need. So what she reads is that the tip here, the tip off, is that you. In order to cast these spells, you need a possession of somebody else's in order to get them under your control.

[D]

Yeah.

[G]

Is this Donald Baumgart?

[D]

That's right.

[B]

So she calls the actor.

[G]

This is Rosemary Woodhouse.

[B]

And Mia Farrow is so good in this sequence because it's her worst fear. Tony Curtis is also great on the phone call.

[D]

Bless your heart. Well, I'm splendid.

[B]

So good.

[D]

I only broke six glasses today.

[G]

Hi. Guy and I are both very unhappy that he got his break from. Because of your misfortune.

[D]

What the hell? That's the way it goes, right?

[G]

I'm sorry I didn't come along that day he came to visit you.

[B]

When she says that, she gets up and the. The what fills the frame is her.

[C]

Pregnant belly and her nervously fidgeting with the cord. Yeah.

[G]

By the way, he has something of yours.

[B]

You know, she's so afraid. She's so afraid to find out this is true.

[G]

Didn't you miss anything that day?

[D]

Oh, God, you. You don't mean my tie, do you?

[G]

Yes.

[D]

Oh, well. Well, he's got mine and I've got his. He can have it back.

[G]

I'm sorry.

[D]

It doesn't matter to me now what color tie I'm wearing.

[G]

I didn't understand. I thought he'd only borrowed it.

[D]

No, no, no, no, no, Wait. It was a. It was a trade or. Do you think he stole it?

[G]

I have to hang up now. I just wanted to know if there have been any improvements.

[D]

No. No, there isn't. It was nice of you to call by.

[B]

Eric, I hate to cry every time you come here, but I honestly think that.

[F]

That.

[B]

This is just like your worst nightmare, which is the man you love has possibly sold. Not his soul. Not even yours. Your unborn baby. The whole baby, including the baby's soul, to these, the worst neighbors of all.

[A]

Time.

[B]

These two Satanists next door. And I think that, like, some of the dread here, I think I'm not. I'm obviously not alone. And this is one of the greatest horror movies ever made.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And definitely, maybe, I think the best movie about dread ever made, because you're completely aligned in. I mean, you know, Rosemary's dread is your dread. And you don't want what is happening to be true. Yeah, right. She doesn't want it to be true. And in that scene, there's no. There's no other way that what she thinks is happening is not the thing that's happening.

[C]

To me, this is like. I mean, just one of the great films, period. But why it's so foundational, I think, is that it does. What I really want from these films is to feel as much affinity and familiarity as I possibly can for as long as possible. And I feel like what this gets is that 95% of what she's experiencing is regular. It's relatable. But people who are pregnant.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

And then it happens to be at the very end. No, actually, you have a demon seed, you know, but until then, like, this is pregnancy. Yeah. And that's incredible because it is, because you're basically being forced to see it through the lens of what's kind of horrifying and dreadful about it.

[B]

Yes, it's. That is deep. Okay, you brought some movies. What are we starting with?

[C]

I guess I'll do Trouble every day.

[B]

To Mr. And Mrs. Brown.

[C]

Welcome to Paris, Mrs. Brown. I hope you'll enjoy your stay. There is something kind of very common in horror films. Right. And we also were talking about. I don't think we talked about it, but Halloween And Friday the 13th, these types of films were slasher movies. Slasher films were often the. It's about young people having sex.

[B]

Horny young folks who have to suffer for their horniness.

[C]

For their horniness. And there's kind of just an implicit punishment there that's coming. It's coming for you if you indulge in the flesh. But the pleasures of the flesh, this is coming for you. And I think about Claire Denis Trouble every day. And so in 2001, she tiptoed into horror. Or maybe she just splashed down. Splashed down into horror.

[B]

Talking about a cannonball.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

She tucked those knees.

[C]

And this is an incredibly bloody film. But it. I think it does something on this topic in terms of desire and sexual fulfillment and does something different with it. But the premise of the film, though, is that there are these characters who. There's been some lab experiment gone awry. You know, it's actually kind of amazing how like Spider man the plot of this is. It doesn't play that way.

[B]

It gets away with it because it doesn't feel like that's what's happening.

[C]

And Beatrice Dahl and Vincent Gallo are, I mean, objectively, for 2001, extremely hot people, and for Gallo, unfortunately, hot. But, like, very 2001 moment. And they have some condition, and their condition involves intimacy in some way. And with Gallo, he's married. He has a new wife, and they're very much in love, but he refuses or he just can't have sex. And you think there's an impotency issue, which is so interesting. You think it's impeccy. It's not impotency.

[B]

You think it's a regular problem, but.

[C]

Instead it's an odd. Beatrice doll, however, is kind of a. Just looking for it. She's actually looking to indulge in whatever her condition is. And there's a young man. She's been kind of penned up, and a young man just comes into her orbit, and he's so into her. Cause she's super hot and has to have her, and basically tears down a fence to get at her. And then they wind up in a bed. And we're gonna watch that scene.

[B]

Okay. Trouble Every Day by the great Claire Denis. Oh, my God. The camera is climbing up a torso. There's a. There's a. Oh, boy. A hand is making its way up the torso. I mean, I barely remember what is about to happen, but I remember the scene.

[C]

So you have a sense of dread, but you also have a sense of wanting. This. This is sexy. So you have this confusing feeling of wanting to see these two people get it on, but you also feel like something's about to happen that you don't want to see. And now the Tinder Sticks score comes in, which is beautiful and sexy, and.

[B]

She has climbed on top of. Of this man should say that Beatrice Dahl has one of the great mouths in the movies. One of the just, like, great teeth, great mouth, and just hunger in her face. Like, she doesn't even need to be doing this to know that she. She wants something. And she's just biting.

[C]

Biting, which. Where's the line? Right? Rough sex. And then.

[B]

Eric, I actually am scared, and I have seen this movie. Oh, there we go.

[C]

Oh, there we go.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[C]

Yeah. So basically, she. That poor guy. But what's amazing also. And we don't have to keep going, but.

[B]

But for.

[C]

This goes on for three more minutes, and he's still got a little breath left after. She's basically devoured parts of him. And then she has an orgasm.

[F]

Yeah, I forgot about that.

[B]

That is some powerful shit. So, I mean, if anything is scary to you about this. What is it?

[C]

Well, to me, it's vulnerable. It's always vulnerability. In some ways, you're vulnerable. And to me, when you are submitting yourself sexually. Right. You're submitting yourself to another person to do something to your body.

[B]

A stranger.

[C]

A stranger.

[B]

A stranger.

[C]

Which is kind of the nature of so many sexual encounters. And sexual encounters that might be just some of the greatest ones you'll ever have. You are very vulnerable. And this is what happens in this scene. Like, this is basically. And it's not like a traditional horror film where you're getting punished for being vulnerable. No, it's just like, this could happen. Yes, anything could happen.

[B]

But anything can happen. But fortunately for me, that never did.

[C]

But what's interesting is that you see this and you don't go, I'm never gonna have sex again. Because it's actually also attractive and appealing. And you get it. It's just like this could happen.

[B]

But this is kind of like the shower sequence in Psycho. Right? It's not like you're never gonna take another shower.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's that you're always gonna be like, who is. Who is anybody? I will check. You know, after I saw Psycho, I wouldn't close the curtain.

[C]

Right.

[B]

I, to my mother's great consternation, would leave a wet floor. Cause I just did not wanna deal with. She's like, it's just me. I'm like, but, mom, you could come in here and be somebody else. Like, that's the thing. It's just your awareness is heightened in this new way. Okay, so what do you got? I don't know where my next thing goes in the kind of real world way of thinking about how dread operates. I just know that this movie is the first movie I have seen recently in a long time that has hit all of the dread pleasure centers for me. Like, this movie is almost entirely a dreadgasm. And I think it's Weapons, which came out this summer.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

I think it's a pretty good movie. It's very good. I enjoyed it. Did it work for you?

[C]

It mostly worked for me.

[B]

Yeah. Is the ending a problem for you?

[C]

The ending? Sure. I don't know. Yeah, you can. No, but I really want to hear you talk about this and get into this, because then I want to get into it. Yeah.

[B]

So this is a movie that is. Whose premise is a classroom full of kids have disappeared one day. We, the moviegoers, have privileged information which is that the kids have awakened at 2:17 in the morning. They have all left their beds and have run somewhere almost in unison at the same time. And the question is. The movie's question is. And the question for the parents of these kids is, like, where did they go? And why did they go where they went?

[C]

And why is there only one left?

[B]

Why is there a single kid left?

[C]

Of that one class?

[B]

Of that class, yes.

[C]

And what's the deal with this teacher?

[B]

She's a wonderful schoolteacher, but she's also a drunk.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And she's also. She's a drunk, determined to do the work that the police department does not seem in her eyes to be capable of or interested in doing. So she's kind of taking matters into her own hands. She's gonna find out what's going on. And so she gets in her car one night, she dumps a bunch of alcohol in her little soda. Soda container, her 711 soda container, her Big Gulp. And she parks her car outside the house of the remaining boy in class. And the movie, the director is Zach Kreger, and he gives you a long shot of the car and the house across the street. The car is in the foreground. The house is looming in the background, and it's nighttime. Here we go. Well, it's still daytime now, but she's taking a sip of her drink. Cut. Jump. Cut. It was like 2 o' clock in the morning. She passed out. And, you know, like, so your sense of dread kicks in. And I think motion and silence are really important to this feeling. The camera has panned from within the car across the street to the house. And the camera's sitting there watching this house. All we're hearing is crickets. Then a door opens, and out of the door comes this character who is walking kind of like sidling, arms up, scissors in hand, and is just kind of walking out of the front door across the street. This is still a long shot. And so she has to travel the distance from the back of the frame to the front of the frame to the car where Julia Garner is passed out. And I don't know about you, but when I saw this movie, I assumed that this creature was gonna use the scissors to just, like, stab her in the eye, hack her up to death. I'm like, oh, we got a Janet Leigh situation on our hands.

[C]

Well, and first off, basically come, since we're looking basically past the car to the door, and she comes towards us, go to the driver's side and, like, smash through the window or open the door. But instead, she goes around and in violating the space, which is so terrifying.

[B]

So much scarier Yeah. I was like, well, ma', am, I wish you had just broken the window and stabbed her. That I can handle. But, no. This thing that just left the house, crossed the street, walked up to the car, proceeds to just stick the scissors into the frame and snip some of Julia Garner's hair. I'm like, okay, I don't know where we are, but I'm. Where's my seat belt? I'm in the passenger seat. I'm fastening it. I think I might actually have reached for a seatbelt, Eric. Like, the camera's in the passenger seat. I'm strapping in. Okay. I mean, that's weapons.

[C]

No, it's fantastic.

[B]

I mean, I love it. All right, we're gonna take a break.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

When we come back, I think what I'd like to do is think about. I mean. Cause the way we've been talking about dread is lived almost entirely within the world of horror movies. But I think, you know, it's an emotion. Lots of other kinds of. Of. Of. Of art. I mean, we're talking about movies, but, like, you can have that experience of dread in something that does not involve knives and scissors and the devil. We'll be.

[C]

Mont Blanc invites you to use life's quiet moments to pause, reflect, and put pen to paper.

[B]

Chapter one.

[A]

Oh, no, no, no, no.

[B]

Part one.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

The mountains are impressive. Oh, I wish you were here to see them. Dear diary, meet my new writing companion, the Meisterstuck.

[C]

For every journey, the perfect companion awaits. Montblanc. Let's write. Visit montblanc.com for exquisitely crafted writing instruments, leather goods, and more.

[H]

Hi, I'm Juliette.

[B]

I'm Joelle. We're from the New York Times Games.

[H]

Team, and we're here talking to fans about our games.

[B]

What's your vibe when you're playing one of our games?

[H]

It makes me feel like I'm procrastinating in a really productive way. It just scratches an itch in my brain. We have a routine. I'm doing long distance with my boyfriend. We'll call every night and share our screen. We do connections, the Mini, and then strands, always in that order.

[G]

Aw.

[H]

Do you have a favorite? The Mini? We try and get it under 30 seconds. We rarely get it under 30, but that's always the goal.

[B]

Folks will really time themselves. But with spelling bee, I give myself all day. I play it when my kids are going to bed.

[H]

Do you guys play together?

[B]

My daughter plays. She likes playing wordle.

[H]

If you ever miss a day, there's also archives that's so great to know. And you have it for connections as well.

[E]

Lord help me.

[B]

I'm just going to be doing that all day, every day. New York Times games subscribers get full.

[E]

Access to all our games and features.

[B]

Subscribe [e-mail] games for a special offer. Okay, we're back and I'm sitting here talking to my friend Eric. Eric Hinds. Wesley, I kind of want to start this by reading something you wrote in thinking about the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Oh, yeah, from 1974, one of the great horror movies. One of the great dread experiences. In part, that movie is one of the great dread experiences because you spend a lot of the movie just being afraid of the chainsaw doing its business. But you don't see a lot of death. You experience its atmosphere more than you experience the act of murder in this film. But I wanna read you something that you wrote. I'm gonna get my glasses. The Texas Chainsaw Massacre reveals, and I can't believe I'm saying this, how satisfying cinematic death is. It reveals this indirectly because death hardly occurs in the film. What occurs is death suspended, death delayed, which is frustratingly, terrifyingly unsatisfying. Most slasher films fetishize shots of piercings or beheadings or obliteratings that describe a gory, though instant end. With the conclusion of each death, another sequence begins in which another live person heads toward an end and on from there. The intensity lies in the intense imagery, which is immediate and leavened as it is by the narrative's renewal, oddly satisfying. Now, you were talking about slasher movies and the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which is, you know, a paradigmatic slasher film. But I think that experience of fearing death is. You can find that lots of places. And just the fear of not knowing what shape it's gonna take, whether it's actually gonna happen, I just feel like that is such a potent feeling that you can find other places. And I just sort of want to talk about, like, what. What dread is doing when it leaves the realm of the conventional horror movie.

[C]

Well, I mean, like I was saying before that I feel like dread kind of feeds on vulnerability. And what is more vulnerable than being a human being who's gonna die? And we could die at any moment, we could die tomorrow, we could die 10 years from now. But the not knowing, the knowing, the.

[B]

Is this gonna be itness of it.

[C]

Is that's defining of our entire existence. So, yes, that can happen in a horror film, but it can and probably should happen in a lot of different contexts. Also which is what you're referring to.

[B]

Yeah. So I just have a lot of movies where I have experienced this feeling. So I will offer you one. I'll offer you. I'll offer you a recent one. Uncut Gems by the Safdie Brothers.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[E]

Look around.

[B]

I'm barely afloat here, all right?

[F]

This guy. Listen to me. Listen, listen. We're gonna rewind the tape, all right? You need to be quiet. I'm a collector, and I'm really good at what I do. I'm actually a creative guy, okay?

[B]

I'm not even crazy about that movie. But the thing that I am crazy about with Uncut Gems is how terrified I am that Adam Sandler is gonna die.

[C]

Sure.

[F]

Take, for instance, your wife, the one that just left. Pretty young lady. You have your. A dog. Okay, and we'll start with that. All right, the dog.

[B]

I mean, I feel like I know it's gonna happen. And I spend the entire movie just like, how is this man gonna not live anymore? And it's just. It's the worst death.

[F]

I don't want any problems.

[B]

You're only gonna see what I've been telling on all day.

[F]

It'll get real messy.

[B]

You hear me?

[C]

Fine.

[F]

Go talk to your staff. I'm done with you.

[D]

All right?

[F]

Remember what I said?

[C]

And it's also like, the film is not making any effort to make you think that he's a great guy who doesn't deserve it.

[B]

Right, Right. And yet you just.

[C]

But you still fear it. You still fear it. Which I think is wonderful. Cause it's not like you're. Oh, my God, he's. You know. You know, Gandhi's gonna get it at the end. No, it's just like this horrible. Like, you know, this, like, trickster. You know, cheat in every possible way. But still. Still, you do not wanna see this guy's demise.

[B]

You don't wanna see anybo.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Because at the end of the day, the movie is about this man. He is the protagonist of this film, and you just don't want to see him die. Is there, like, you're listening to me talk? What's coming up?

[C]

Well, I think just hearing you talk, just that made me think of one of your favorite films. Piano Teacher.

[B]

Sorry. Can't believe I didn't rate that one down. Michael Hanukkah is the king of Dread.

[C]

He's the king of Dread. Yes.

[B]

Okay. This is a movie about a woman, an older woman who has a very torrid sexual affair with a younger man. She's a musician. He's her student. Things go south from there.

[C]

Yes. And I think I've told you this, like, it's the only. It's the only film I've ever, like, fainted watching. And part of that. And yet that was not, like. I think of this as being one of my great viewing experiences because I was engaged in that way. I was so physically engaged and so physically sympathetic to what I was watching and terrified, really. The sense of dread is. I don't know where this is gonna end. I don't know where her satisfaction is gonna lead us to. Like, where. Where. What's gonna satisfy her? What's gonna sort of resolve this? And I'm so terrified about what that's gonna be.

[B]

Isabelle Huppert is the star of this movie. And I think I'm just curious, like, do you remember the moment were you passed out?

[C]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[B]

When was it?

[C]

With the female Circumcision self. Circumcision.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes. So in her.

[C]

It's hard to even say that, but.

[B]

Yes, this is what happens at her lowest moment. She mutilates herself. But then, for me, the dread which is building the entire movie because once it's clear that she's snapped. Right. You're desperate to know or to not know how she's gonna avenge herself, essentially. And what is that gonna look like? And this movie has such a great ending, and it's so thrilling and terrifying and scary and kind of weirdly funny for how ballsy it is. And the whole time you're headed there, I'm like, I don't want to go. I don't want to go. I don't want to go. But I do.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, okay. I will say as we wind this conversation down, that there was one period in American moviemaking that really understood what dread was as an emotion. Like, what. What love was to the. To the 50s, what heroism was to an aspect of the 40s, what fun was to the 30s. Dread is to the 70s. And there's no sustained period of at least American moviemaking where that is the predominant emotion, where every single movie, even the musicals and the comedies, just. You couldn't go to them and not be like, oh, my God, what is Blacula about to do? What is going on here? Like, I mean, the columns come alive in the Wiz.

[C]

Yeah. The rules don't apply.

[B]

Nothing makes any sense.

[C]

Anything can happen.

[B]

The president doesn't have to obey the law. They're lying to us about this war.

[C]

You can just show up and shoot people and nothing changes.

[B]

Murder everywhere New York is on fire. It's just like everything. Nothing makes any sense anymore. And that sense of chaos, lawlessness, I mean, to some extent, hopelessness, that it could be better. All in the movies.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

So horror movies, not an essential part of the 1970s, but they are obviously there. The paradigmatic ones are being made during this period. I mean, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, the Omen.

[C]

Exorcist, which we mentioned.

[B]

The Exorcist. Real dread oriented experience. Then there is just like that layer below those that's just, you know, schlock all day long with meaning. Right. Revenge thrillers, monster movies, disaster films.

[C]

There's also kind of elevated horror stuff there too. Like Don't Look Now.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[C]

Nicholas Rogue's Don't Look Now, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, Philip Kaufman's.

[B]

Yeah. Oh. That to me is like one of the peaks of this 70s dread.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

But I'm gonna identify one sequence in just a. Just a paranoia thriller that, to me is the epitome of dread because you didn't think the movie had it in it. And it's Francis Ford Coppola's the conversation from 1970.

[C]

This is a world of hidden mics and two way mirrors. A world where nothing is private.

[G]

You think we can do this?

[C]

Harry Call is an expert, the best there is.

[B]

Gene Hackman is this surveillance guy, right? He's a sound artist who also is using his sound artistry to spy on people. He just does this for a living. It's his everyday job. But he gets this one job to record this couple and finds himself embroiled in a real mystery that has a lot of twists and turns. And he reluctantly winds up becoming a detective, trying to figure out what he's gotten himself mixed up in and trying to stop a murder from happening. And his dread becomes our dread as he goes snooping around hotel rooms looking for clues. Let's go. All right, so he's making his way through this room and he encounters the bathroom in one of these rooms.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And the first thing we see is a toilet.

[C]

The thing is, I've seen the film and I have a different level of dread because I know what's about to happen.

[B]

But yes, Yeah, I mean, sure, of course you do, but you're like, okay, that's a toilet. It's like they've left. This is old.

[C]

It's got the seal. It's got the seal.

[B]

Right. The seals on it. So it's fine. We don't have to worry about that. He's like having a little psycho moment where he's like, takes a deep breath before he touches the shower curtain and pulls it back, hoping there's nothing in there.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, thank God. It's empty. Nothing in the shower. No Janet Leigh. No Glenn Close. We're good. We're good. But I mean, the movie is like Coppola is making you think about Psycho as he fondles.

[C]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

And he's looking in the. He's just staring at the drain, like, having a psycho memory. I don't know what.

[C]

And do you want him to find something or not? Which is always the question.

[B]

This is the thing. Like, do we, like, go home, Harry. Get out of there. Harry. Don't do it.

[C]

You did it. You saw everything.

[B]

Oh, don't do it. You've seen enough. Just go back, Harry. Go back to your room. Go back to your room. Oh. He lifts the toilet seat, but nothing in there. We're good. And then, great dread moment. The score kicks in.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

And all of a sudden, this rush of blood just starts coming out of the toilet. And Gene Hackman doesn't scream like I did. He just is like, what's going on? And it just floods the bathroom and he just backs away. And there's like a little tissue or something.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Listen.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

To this day, Eric Hines. I can't. I live in dread of an overflowing toilet. I really. I really live in dread of it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't like. Because of this movie. And I think the power of that movie is that it wasn't about any of those things. Right. I mean, the blood, one can extrapolate is. Is. It does involve the case. Right. Like, it is connected to the plot, but in that moment, it just feels like a manifestation of this man's situation.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Right. It is a state of mind thing.

[C]

And it's not even something that. This is the answer. Like, what is this?

[B]

It doesn't even tell you.

[C]

It doesn't tell you anything. Which is very, as you're saying, like, the 70s being the time for this kind of, like, free floating dread is. There's plenty of things to. To dread. There's plenty of things that could happen. It also just is in the air. It's just how you feel.

[B]

And the toilet.

[C]

And the toilet. It's in the toilet. It's in your belly. Yeah.

[B]

So we gotta really go. But two things. Number one is, you know, we're living in a moment where you would think that we'd be having all kinds of dread in our movies. Like, this is the time, but we're not there yet. And I'm wondering if you think the dread from that, you know, from that previous era been replaced with something else that you can identify in at least the horror. Right. Three of our biggest movies this year. The Conjuring 4, Weapons and Sinners.

[C]

And Sinners, yeah. It's a good question. I mean, I don't think we're there yet where we're going to get. I don't know. Part of me feels like that maybe this is why I've been fixated on this. In some of my examples here is whether we're in a metaphorical moment or whether we're beyond metaphor. Like, are we beyond the sense of comparison? Are we in some place now where a metaphor feels like we're wasting our time, we're entertaining ourselves? Or, you know, like, do we need something? What's the language that we're gonna use to articulate? One of the things that I love about Sinners is that Sinners finds, I think, its own language to basically approach something that is very much something we're living within, which is generational trauma and finding, you know, finding a narrative that can contain it in some way. And that's not something I'd seen before, certainly not seen articulated in a genre capacity like that. So that's exciting. But I just feel like there's something about. I don't know where our perspective is going to land. What's going to be the perspective? What's going to be the language that's going to sort of speak to what we are living through right now that's going to feel right, that's going to somehow, like, unearth something that's going to make us understand our feeling better than we do now? I don't know. I don't think we've actually gotten there yet. And I do really, really wonder what, in a visual sense, can actually approach a moment that we are all. We're beyond cynical, we're beyond understanding that everything we thought we were as a country, we are as a culture has been kind of just detonated. And now there's some other thing? Is it just cynicism to the millionth degree? Is it hyper sincerity? Is it like, what's the. And in particular in this level, what's gonna capture this level of like, I don't know what the future holds? What is the future gonna be like, look like? How do we articulate that?

[B]

I don't know.

[C]

Right.

[B]

All right, real quick. We gotta go top three horror movies, top three scary movies. We'll even just, like. We'll let you off the hook a little bit if you had to just pick three.

[C]

I mean, Texas Chainsaw, which you mentioned before. The Shining. Yeah, it's boring, but, yeah.

[B]

No, it works every time.

[C]

Oh, a third. I'm gonna say the thing.

[B]

This is us. Station 31, can you read me?

[D]

We found something in the ice. We need some help down here. Can anybody hear me?

[B]

We found something. A movie that delivers every time. Because you just can't believe that all this, like, camaraderie is gonna go terribly, terribly south. All right, Eric, Wesley, thanks for coming. We did it. We did it. Thank you.

[C]

Thank you, Wesley. So much fun.

[B]

Happy Halloween.

[C]

Happy Halloween.

[E]

This is Sarah Koenig, host of Serial. We have a new show. It's called the Preventionist. It's about something strange that happened in eastern Pennsylvania. Parents claiming they'd walked into a hospital to get medical care for their children and then were forced to leave without them. Why were these parents suddenly losing custody of their kids? From Serial Productions and the New York Times, it's the Preventionist. Eligible Time subscribers can listen right now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. So head there to subscribe or listen anywhere. October 30th.

[B]

This episode of Cannonball was produced by John White, Elissa Dudley, Janelle Anderson and Austin Mitch, with production assistance from Kate Lopresti, Lisa Tobin. She's our editor, and it's her birthday. Happy birthday, Lisa. This episode was engineered by Daniel Ramirez. It was recorded by Matty Masiello, Kyle Grandillo and Nick Pittman. Dan Powell and Diane Wong did the original music. Our theme music, as always, is by Justin Ellington. Bobby Doherty, he took the photo for our show Art. Our video team is Brooke Minters and Felice Leon. This episode was filmed by Alfredo Chiarapa and Lauren Pruitt. It was edited by Mark Zemel, Jeremy Rocklin and Jamie Heffitts. We're on YouTube. Watch and subscribe. Thanks for listening, everybody, and we'll be back next week with you, Rudy Poo Candy Asses.

[D]

It.