Cannonball with Wesley Morris — "Dark Pop Is In. But Gaga Is Mother."

The New York Times | October 16, 2025

Overview

In this Halloween-timed episode, Wesley Morris, culture critic and host of Cannonball, sits down with New York Times pop music editor Karen Ganz to dissect the dark, dramatic resurgence in pop music—anchored by Lady Gaga’s triumphant Mayhem Ball tour. Amidst contemporary pop’s fascination with goth and grotesque aesthetics, Morris and Ganz consider Gaga’s legacy as “Mother Monster” and her unique ability to shape, subvert, and survive pop stardom. Fresh from attending the final night at Madison Square Garden, their conversation surveys Gaga’s entire career arc, her chameleonic relationship to authenticity and artifice, and what makes her a singular force in the current musical landscape.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Era of Dark Pop & Gaga’s Influence

[00:43-03:32]

• Morris opens by observing an upsurge in “darkness” across pop—blood, bones, death, grotesque stagecraft—from established acts like Taylor Swift (a conversation for another episode) to Charli XCX, Doja Cat, and Sabrina Carpenter.
• Lady Gaga is named as the originator: “You know whose children these little monsters are? Lady Gaga. The woman perfected the performance of dark weirdo.”
• Together, Wesley and Karen set out to analyze whether Gaga’s throne as queen of dark pop has been usurped by those she influenced, and what might be “special” about her current Mayhem tour—prompting them to attend together.

2. Gaga’s Songcraft: Earworms and Emotional Impact

[03:35-05:02]

• Morris describes Gaga’s music as more than earworms: “They’re like anacondas… they just sort of sloop around for days.” ([03:35])
• Karen expresses strong emotional attachment to “Alejandro”:

  “I think this is one of the best songs ever written. I get chills listening to Alejandro... Alejandro deserves, like a two hour concert. I could listen to Alejandro on repeat.” ([04:17])

3. Karen’s Evolving Relationship with Gaga

[05:16-08:33]

• Recounts encountering Gaga at the dawn of her career and initial skepticism:

  “I did not go... I said Lady Gaga and Splash. Like, no. Well, huge regret.” ([05:38])

• Walks through Gaga’s discography, waxing ecstatic about The Fame Monster (“three of the best songs ever compiled in pop,” [05:52]) and the wildness of Born This Way (“lunatic... absolutely out of its mind”).
• Notes distancing effects of Artpop and Joanne but underscores continued belief in Gaga’s capacity as “world-builder” and spectacle-maker:

  “Pop star doesn’t just mean songwriter. It doesn’t just mean performer. It’s like world building. It’s spectacle. It’s understanding of all of the relationship with the theater, of it, with the character.” ([08:01-08:10])

4. Gaga, Fame, and Performance Art

[08:33-14:54]

• Morris reflects on feeling “scared” by the early Gaga, fascinated by her approach to fame in the era of the iPhone, Facebook, and the Kardashians:

  “Here was this person who was kind of making fun of this fame hunger that the country was experiencing and... fetishizing it at the same time.” ([09:41])

• They discuss Gaga’s intense commitment to spectacle (the meat dress, arriving in an egg) as satirical yet sincere:

  “She commits to every bit.” ([10:11] – Ganz)

• The duo agree that Gaga achieved a compressed, multidecade pop career arc in only a handful of years.
• After her Tony Bennett duets, both question whether Gaga lost a compelling narrative thread:

  “...there didn’t seem to be a story that was as compelling or interesting or as FASC as what had been going on for those first eight years.” ([13:14])

5. The Mayhem Ball Tour – A Career Reconciled

[15:13-19:41]

• Neither Karen nor Wesley felt especially excited by the Mayhem album, but both found the Mayhem Ball tour transformative. Karen:

  “I am beyond sold on Mayhem the tour. It’s growing on me. Because the show is that successful.” ([15:24])

Stagecraft and Arrivals:

• The tour opens with Gaga atop a massive, red “tuffet” dress, wheeled into the arena—a symbolically charged image:

  “It is the height of drag. It is so... it’s so stupid. And she is absolutely genius.” ([19:09] – Ganz)

• The arrival, choreography, and spectacle immediately establish a heightened gothic world.
• The show’s conceptual through-line: a chessboard drama between two queens, embodying Gaga’s persistent themes of duality.

Set Pieces and Symbolism:

[20:25-29:08]

• Detailed breakdown of visual metaphors:
  • Trapped dancers inside the giant dress: “In the corset are trapped her dancers... Gloria Steinem couldn’t have done a better job.” ([20:44] – Morris)
  • “Perfect Celebrity,” staged in a sandbox (or “litter box”), Gaga battling skeleton arms and VMA “moon people” statues—ridiculous yet meaningful:

    “This woman could die singing this song. I know she could suffocate on sand.” ([27:23])

  • The show delights in camp, absurdity, and moments of theatrical struggle.

Art, Authenticity, and Humor:

• They discuss Gaga’s balancing act between humor and relentless sincerity.

  “Is she really in on the joke?... so much of the act and so much of the Persona is this, like, relentless sincerity.” ([29:08] – Ganz)

6. Reinvention of Hits and Thematic Cohesion

[23:14-31:41]

• The tour weaves old and new tracks into a single narrative; “Paparazzi” is performed as a funeral dirge/wedding march.
• Karen highlights the show’s “relentless” and “best opening act... ever seen—ever.”
• Wesley:

  “I love the way she’s thinking about how the catalog can save her.” ([25:18])

• In Act 4, rearranged “A Million Reasons” and “Shallow” move Gaga to a solo piano version of “Die With a Smile” and “Edge of Glory,” thrilling the arena:

  “When the piano comes out, I’m like, oh, right. This is another mode of this artist that she hasn’t even bothered to show.” ([31:11])

7. What Does Mayhem Reveal About Gaga?

[34:07-42:15]

• Discussion turns philosophical: What is Gaga clarifying, healing, or correcting with this show?
• Karen dismisses the idea of a discrete “eras” tour:

  “It literally, it’s not an eras tour... what it does is brings together all the elements of the theatricality and the humor and the over the topness and then the understatedness. Like all the different Gagas were there.” ([36:05])

• They compare arena intimacy (MSG) to stadium spectacle, underlining that Gaga’s blend of chaos and control can only be achieved in an arena.
• Karen recalls the significance of Gaga’s 2011 VMAs “Joe Calderon” performance:

  “This to me, is the full encapsulation of the entire Gaga project. And she figured it out in 2011.” ([40:31])

8. The Philosophy of Fame, Art & the Fandom

[41:10-46:47]

• The meaning of “applause,” art, and audience validation are dissected—the “Coons line” from “Applause” marking a key crossroads:

  “One second, I’m a Coons fan, suddenly the Coons is me. Pop culture was in art now, arts and pop culture in me.” ([42:17] – Ganz)

  • Morris: “She could have picked anybody... She picks Jeff Koons... the thingy nest of pop artists.” ([44:04])
• After Artpop, Gaga’s turn to Tony Bennett and jazz was seen as retreat—yet Mayhem gathers all the threads.

9. Gaga as “Mother Monster” and the Power of Queer Fandom

[46:47-49:53]

• They trace Gaga’s early adoption of “mother” (not just age, but role and symbolism) and how her relationship to her queer fandom mirrors Madonna’s.
• Karen:

  “She has taken her fandom... by the hand that way. She speaks so directly to them about caring about their needs.” ([46:49])

• Both agree that Gaga in the Mayhem Ball projects comfort and protection, offering (especially to queer fans) "goodwill and safety and comfort in a show that was in no way comfortable." ([50:26])

10. Gaga’s Unmatched Will to Give

[49:53-55:54]

• Karen notes how the disciplined, precise show of Mayhem is ironically Gaga’s most orderly work, despite its title.
• Morris:

  “I felt like this is a person who would die on that stage for us... she’s the one who has the fire that will burn you. Right. It is both a beacon and infernal in some way.” ([52:12])

• They compare Gaga’s devotion to her fans to that of her contemporaries, deeming it singular.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Gaga’s Musical Persistence:

  “They’re not earworms, they’re like anacondas. They just live in here and they just sort of sloop around for days.”
  —Wesley Morris ([03:35])

• On “Alejandro”:

  “I get chills listening to Alejandro... Alejandro deserves, like a two hour concert.”
  —Karen Ganz ([04:17])

• On Pop Stardom:

  “Pop star doesn’t just mean songwriter. It doesn’t just mean performer. It’s like world building. It’s spectacle. It’s understanding of all of the relationship with the theater, of it, with the character.”
  —Karen Ganz ([08:01])

• On Performance Art:

  “In order to complete the performance, Gaga seemed to be taking this risk or walking this tightrope where in order to satirize the celebrity experience, I must become a famous person myself.”
  —Wesley Morris ([09:43])

• On Mayhem Tour Arrival:

  “RuPaul always says this, but, like, it’s so stupid. And she is absolutely genius.”
  —Karen Ganz ([19:09])

• On Stage Symbolism:

  “If you cut this woman, she would bleed Madonna, David Bowie, Freddie Mercury, Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston... and Andrew Lloyd Webber.”
  —Wesley Morris ([16:13])

• On Gaga’s Humor & Sincerity:

  “There’s a lot of humor in what she’s doing... but so much of the act and so much of the Persona is this relentless sincerity.”
  —Karen Ganz ([29:08])

• On Pop Spectacle:

  “The best live musicians figure out... how to incorporate the new material with the old material and have them all be of a piece. Beyoncé has figured that out.”
  —Wesley Morris ([23:14])

• On Fandom & Motherhood:

  “She has taken her fandom by the hand that way... she dedicates large swaths of the show to it.”
  —Karen Ganz ([46:49])

• On Gaga’s Willingness to Sacrifice:

  “She’s the popstar of everybody. Just, like, name the 12 most elite popstars we have. She’s the one who has the fire that will burn you. Right. It is both a beacon and infernal in some way.”
  —Wesley Morris ([52:12])

Important Segment Timestamps

• [00:43] Theme introduction: dark pop in 2025 and Gaga’s progeny
• [05:16] Karen’s historical relationship with Gaga
• [09:41] Gaga’s relationship to fame and spectacle
• [15:13] Reactions to the Mayhem Ball tour over the Mayhem album
• [16:34] Describing the gothic stage design and opening spectacle
• [20:25] Visual symbolism: dancers in a corset under a tuffet dress
• [23:14] Song reinventions: “Paparazzi” as a funeral/wedding processional
• [26:37] “Perfect Celebrity” performance in a sandbox/litter box
• [31:08] Gaga at the piano for “Die With a Smile” and “Edge of Glory”
• [36:01] The “anti-eras” tour and all “different Gagas”
• [40:31] Breakdown of 2011 VMAs “Joe Calderon” moment
• [42:17] Dissecting “Applause” and the “Coons” line
• [46:49] Gaga and fanbase: “Mother Monster”
• [50:26] The “serotonin” and safety of the show for fans
• [52:12] Gaga’s sacrificial energy compared to other contemporary pop stars
• [54:16] Emotional denouement: Gaga’s bare-faced, stripped-down final performance

Tone and Language

The conversation alternates between playful and analytical, always irreverent, deeply affectionate, and at times philosophical. Both hosts bend humor into insight, escalate camp into critique, and root their takes in palpable fan energy and personal reflection (“I need the serotonin... I really feel something in that room.” – Ganz).

Summary Takeaway

Lady Gaga, as presented through the Mayhem Ball, emerges less as a fading icon and more as the elemental source of pop’s continuing fascination with darkness, spectacle, and sincerity. Her capacity to fold all her contradictory selves—performance artist, camp queen, piano balladeer, queer icon, “Mother Monster”—into one coherent, cathartic spectacle marks her as uniquely equipped to channel both the anxieties and redemptions of the moment. Even as pop’s new generation borrows her darkness, only Gaga wields it with such presence, protection, and pyrotechnic devotion to her audience. Mayhem is mother.

Selected Quotes – At a Glance

• “Put your fucking hands up, New York City... That’s the kind of power she has.” ([34:07] – Wesley)
• “I just want to see the whole picture. And I feel like this show—I did see the whole picture.” ([29:08] – Karen)
• “She wants to give that much... She’s the one who has the fire that will burn you.” ([52:14],[52:12] – Karen, Wesley)
• “She arrives atop this massive dress... and she ends it essentially as naked as she could possibly be.” ([54:55] – Karen)
• “This is really a show about death and dying, but also about what it means to be alive in the middle of all that death and despair.” ([55:29] – Wesley)

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