Dark Pop Is In. But Gaga Is Mother.

Summary

Cannonball with Wesley Morris — "Dark Pop Is In. But Gaga Is Mother."

The New York Times | October 16, 2025

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Overview

In this Halloween-timed episode, Wesley Morris, culture critic and host of Cannonball, sits down with New York Times pop music editor Karen Ganz to dissect the dark, dramatic resurgence in pop music—anchored by Lady Gaga’s triumphant Mayhem Ball tour. Amidst contemporary pop’s fascination with goth and grotesque aesthetics, Morris and Ganz consider Gaga’s legacy as “Mother Monster” and her unique ability to shape, subvert, and survive pop stardom. Fresh from attending the final night at Madison Square Garden, their conversation surveys Gaga’s entire career arc, her chameleonic relationship to authenticity and artifice, and what makes her a singular force in the current musical landscape.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Era of Dark Pop & Gaga’s Influence

[00:43-03:32]

• Morris opens by observing an upsurge in “darkness” across pop—blood, bones, death, grotesque stagecraft—from established acts like Taylor Swift (a conversation for another episode) to Charli XCX, Doja Cat, and Sabrina Carpenter.
• Lady Gaga is named as the originator: “You know whose children these little monsters are? Lady Gaga. The woman perfected the performance of dark weirdo.”
• Together, Wesley and Karen set out to analyze whether Gaga’s throne as queen of dark pop has been usurped by those she influenced, and what might be “special” about her current Mayhem tour—prompting them to attend together.

2. Gaga’s Songcraft: Earworms and Emotional Impact

[03:35-05:02]

• Morris describes Gaga’s music as more than earworms: “They’re like anacondas… they just sort of sloop around for days.” ([03:35])
• Karen expresses strong emotional attachment to “Alejandro”:

  “I think this is one of the best songs ever written. I get chills listening to Alejandro... Alejandro deserves, like a two hour concert. I could listen to Alejandro on repeat.” ([04:17])

3. Karen’s Evolving Relationship with Gaga

[05:16-08:33]

• Recounts encountering Gaga at the dawn of her career and initial skepticism:

  “I did not go... I said Lady Gaga and Splash. Like, no. Well, huge regret.” ([05:38])

• Walks through Gaga’s discography, waxing ecstatic about The Fame Monster (“three of the best songs ever compiled in pop,” [05:52]) and the wildness of Born This Way (“lunatic... absolutely out of its mind”).
• Notes distancing effects of Artpop and Joanne but underscores continued belief in Gaga’s capacity as “world-builder” and spectacle-maker:

  “Pop star doesn’t just mean songwriter. It doesn’t just mean performer. It’s like world building. It’s spectacle. It’s understanding of all of the relationship with the theater, of it, with the character.” ([08:01-08:10])

4. Gaga, Fame, and Performance Art

[08:33-14:54]

• Morris reflects on feeling “scared” by the early Gaga, fascinated by her approach to fame in the era of the iPhone, Facebook, and the Kardashians:

  “Here was this person who was kind of making fun of this fame hunger that the country was experiencing and... fetishizing it at the same time.” ([09:41])

• They discuss Gaga’s intense commitment to spectacle (the meat dress, arriving in an egg) as satirical yet sincere:

  “She commits to every bit.” ([10:11] – Ganz)

• The duo agree that Gaga achieved a compressed, multidecade pop career arc in only a handful of years.
• After her Tony Bennett duets, both question whether Gaga lost a compelling narrative thread:

  “...there didn’t seem to be a story that was as compelling or interesting or as FASC as what had been going on for those first eight years.” ([13:14])

5. The Mayhem Ball Tour – A Career Reconciled

[15:13-19:41]

• Neither Karen nor Wesley felt especially excited by the Mayhem album, but both found the Mayhem Ball tour transformative. Karen:

  “I am beyond sold on Mayhem the tour. It’s growing on me. Because the show is that successful.” ([15:24])

Stagecraft and Arrivals:

• The tour opens with Gaga atop a massive, red “tuffet” dress, wheeled into the arena—a symbolically charged image:

  “It is the height of drag. It is so... it’s so stupid. And she is absolutely genius.” ([19:09] – Ganz)

• The arrival, choreography, and spectacle immediately establish a heightened gothic world.
• The show’s conceptual through-line: a chessboard drama between two queens, embodying Gaga’s persistent themes of duality.

Set Pieces and Symbolism:

[20:25-29:08]

• Detailed breakdown of visual metaphors:
  • Trapped dancers inside the giant dress: “In the corset are trapped her dancers... Gloria Steinem couldn’t have done a better job.” ([20:44] – Morris)
  • “Perfect Celebrity,” staged in a sandbox (or “litter box”), Gaga battling skeleton arms and VMA “moon people” statues—ridiculous yet meaningful:

    “This woman could die singing this song. I know she could suffocate on sand.” ([27:23])

  • The show delights in camp, absurdity, and moments of theatrical struggle.

Art, Authenticity, and Humor:

• They discuss Gaga’s balancing act between humor and relentless sincerity.

  “Is she really in on the joke?... so much of the act and so much of the Persona is this, like, relentless sincerity.” ([29:08] – Ganz)

6. Reinvention of Hits and Thematic Cohesion

[23:14-31:41]

• The tour weaves old and new tracks into a single narrative; “Paparazzi” is performed as a funeral dirge/wedding march.
• Karen highlights the show’s “relentless” and “best opening act... ever seen—ever.”
• Wesley:

  “I love the way she’s thinking about how the catalog can save her.” ([25:18])

• In Act 4, rearranged “A Million Reasons” and “Shallow” move Gaga to a solo piano version of “Die With a Smile” and “Edge of Glory,” thrilling the arena:

  “When the piano comes out, I’m like, oh, right. This is another mode of this artist that she hasn’t even bothered to show.” ([31:11])

7. What Does Mayhem Reveal About Gaga?

[34:07-42:15]

• Discussion turns philosophical: What is Gaga clarifying, healing, or correcting with this show?
• Karen dismisses the idea of a discrete “eras” tour:

  “It literally, it’s not an eras tour... what it does is brings together all the elements of the theatricality and the humor and the over the topness and then the understatedness. Like all the different Gagas were there.” ([36:05])

• They compare arena intimacy (MSG) to stadium spectacle, underlining that Gaga’s blend of chaos and control can only be achieved in an arena.
• Karen recalls the significance of Gaga’s 2011 VMAs “Joe Calderon” performance:

  “This to me, is the full encapsulation of the entire Gaga project. And she figured it out in 2011.” ([40:31])

8. The Philosophy of Fame, Art & the Fandom

[41:10-46:47]

• The meaning of “applause,” art, and audience validation are dissected—the “Coons line” from “Applause” marking a key crossroads:

  “One second, I’m a Coons fan, suddenly the Coons is me. Pop culture was in art now, arts and pop culture in me.” ([42:17] – Ganz)

  • Morris: “She could have picked anybody... She picks Jeff Koons... the thingy nest of pop artists.” ([44:04])
• After Artpop, Gaga’s turn to Tony Bennett and jazz was seen as retreat—yet Mayhem gathers all the threads.

9. Gaga as “Mother Monster” and the Power of Queer Fandom

[46:47-49:53]

• They trace Gaga’s early adoption of “mother” (not just age, but role and symbolism) and how her relationship to her queer fandom mirrors Madonna’s.
• Karen:

  “She has taken her fandom... by the hand that way. She speaks so directly to them about caring about their needs.” ([46:49])

• Both agree that Gaga in the Mayhem Ball projects comfort and protection, offering (especially to queer fans) "goodwill and safety and comfort in a show that was in no way comfortable." ([50:26])

10. Gaga’s Unmatched Will to Give

[49:53-55:54]

• Karen notes how the disciplined, precise show of Mayhem is ironically Gaga’s most orderly work, despite its title.
• Morris:

  “I felt like this is a person who would die on that stage for us... she’s the one who has the fire that will burn you. Right. It is both a beacon and infernal in some way.” ([52:12])

• They compare Gaga’s devotion to her fans to that of her contemporaries, deeming it singular.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Gaga’s Musical Persistence:

  “They’re not earworms, they’re like anacondas. They just live in here and they just sort of sloop around for days.”
  —Wesley Morris ([03:35])

• On “Alejandro”:

  “I get chills listening to Alejandro... Alejandro deserves, like a two hour concert.”
  —Karen Ganz ([04:17])

• On Pop Stardom:

  “Pop star doesn’t just mean songwriter. It doesn’t just mean performer. It’s like world building. It’s spectacle. It’s understanding of all of the relationship with the theater, of it, with the character.”
  —Karen Ganz ([08:01])

• On Performance Art:

  “In order to complete the performance, Gaga seemed to be taking this risk or walking this tightrope where in order to satirize the celebrity experience, I must become a famous person myself.”
  —Wesley Morris ([09:43])

• On Mayhem Tour Arrival:

  “RuPaul always says this, but, like, it’s so stupid. And she is absolutely genius.”
  —Karen Ganz ([19:09])

• On Stage Symbolism:

  “If you cut this woman, she would bleed Madonna, David Bowie, Freddie Mercury, Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston... and Andrew Lloyd Webber.”
  —Wesley Morris ([16:13])

• On Gaga’s Humor & Sincerity:

  “There’s a lot of humor in what she’s doing... but so much of the act and so much of the Persona is this relentless sincerity.”
  —Karen Ganz ([29:08])

• On Pop Spectacle:

  “The best live musicians figure out... how to incorporate the new material with the old material and have them all be of a piece. Beyoncé has figured that out.”
  —Wesley Morris ([23:14])

• On Fandom & Motherhood:

  “She has taken her fandom by the hand that way... she dedicates large swaths of the show to it.”
  —Karen Ganz ([46:49])

• On Gaga’s Willingness to Sacrifice:

  “She’s the popstar of everybody. Just, like, name the 12 most elite popstars we have. She’s the one who has the fire that will burn you. Right. It is both a beacon and infernal in some way.”
  —Wesley Morris ([52:12])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [00:43] Theme introduction: dark pop in 2025 and Gaga’s progeny
• [05:16] Karen’s historical relationship with Gaga
• [09:41] Gaga’s relationship to fame and spectacle
• [15:13] Reactions to the Mayhem Ball tour over the Mayhem album
• [16:34] Describing the gothic stage design and opening spectacle
• [20:25] Visual symbolism: dancers in a corset under a tuffet dress
• [23:14] Song reinventions: “Paparazzi” as a funeral/wedding processional
• [26:37] “Perfect Celebrity” performance in a sandbox/litter box
• [31:08] Gaga at the piano for “Die With a Smile” and “Edge of Glory”
• [36:01] The “anti-eras” tour and all “different Gagas”
• [40:31] Breakdown of 2011 VMAs “Joe Calderon” moment
• [42:17] Dissecting “Applause” and the “Coons” line
• [46:49] Gaga and fanbase: “Mother Monster”
• [50:26] The “serotonin” and safety of the show for fans
• [52:12] Gaga’s sacrificial energy compared to other contemporary pop stars
• [54:16] Emotional denouement: Gaga’s bare-faced, stripped-down final performance

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Tone and Language

The conversation alternates between playful and analytical, always irreverent, deeply affectionate, and at times philosophical. Both hosts bend humor into insight, escalate camp into critique, and root their takes in palpable fan energy and personal reflection (“I need the serotonin... I really feel something in that room.” – Ganz).

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Summary Takeaway

Lady Gaga, as presented through the Mayhem Ball, emerges less as a fading icon and more as the elemental source of pop’s continuing fascination with darkness, spectacle, and sincerity. Her capacity to fold all her contradictory selves—performance artist, camp queen, piano balladeer, queer icon, “Mother Monster”—into one coherent, cathartic spectacle marks her as uniquely equipped to channel both the anxieties and redemptions of the moment. Even as pop’s new generation borrows her darkness, only Gaga wields it with such presence, protection, and pyrotechnic devotion to her audience. Mayhem is mother.

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Selected Quotes – At a Glance

• “Put your fucking hands up, New York City... That’s the kind of power she has.” ([34:07] – Wesley)
• “I just want to see the whole picture. And I feel like this show—I did see the whole picture.” ([29:08] – Karen)
• “She wants to give that much... She’s the one who has the fire that will burn you.” ([52:14],[52:12] – Karen, Wesley)
• “She arrives atop this massive dress... and she ends it essentially as naked as she could possibly be.” ([54:55] – Karen)
• “This is really a show about death and dying, but also about what it means to be alive in the middle of all that death and despair.” ([55:29] – Wesley)

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Further Listening Resources

To subscribe to Cannonball with Wesley Morris, visit nytimes.com/podcasts or find it on your favorite podcast platform. For more New York Times cultural coverage, download the NYT app and explore additional audio content.

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Transcript

[Mont Blanc Narrator]

Mont Blanc invites you to use life's quiet moments to pause, reflect, and put pen to paper.

[Karen Ganz]

Chapter one. Oh, no, no, no, no.

[Wesley Morris]

Part one. Mmm.

[Karen Ganz]

Perfect.

[Wesley Morris]

The mountains are impressive. Oh, I wish you were here to see them.

[Karen Ganz]

Dear diary, meet my new writing companion.

[Wesley Morris]

The Meister stuck for every journey, the.

[Mont Blanc Narrator]

Perfect companion awaits Mont Blanc. Lets write. Visit montblanc.com for exquisitely crafted writing instruments, leather goods and more.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm Wesley Morris, and this is Cannonball. Today. Put your paws up. It's a dark time in this country right now, and weirdly, also a dark time in pop. Maybe even for Taylor Swift. But that's a different conversation for a different episode. And don't worry, I might do it. But seriously, darkness, death, blood, skulls, bones, a sharp knife, sharp teeth. As far as a certain class of pop singer is concerned, right now it's all Carrie and pig's blood. And Gladys from Weapons. She likes these gothic baby doll killer getups. I mean, I at least have seen live in concert. Charli XCX do this thing where she spits and then licks her spit back up during a set. Doja Cat just went on SNL and the vibe was real. Beetlejuice, Horror Picture show, even Sabrina Carpenter, who is not somebody I associate with this moment of dark pop. I have seen her with the occasional severed lip, but you know whose children these little monsters are? Lady Gaga. The woman perfected the performance of dark weirdo. She seemed to figure out how to take the entire life cycle of a pop star from birth to crypt and turn it into something really interesting and disturbing and special. But she's also been hard to figure out after a certain point, at least for me. And I'm seeing all these other pop stars running around with her ideas, and I'm thinking, what does she have? Has she been overtaken? Usurped? What's going on for her? But then my pal Karen Ganz, who's the pop music editor here at the Times, she told me that something special was going on with Mayhem, the tour. So we went together to see the final night of the Mayhem Ball at MSG last month. That's Madison Square Garden. And I'm still thinking about it, but I mean, what better time to talk about the Queen of Darkness mother monster herself than Halloween? Because as usual with Karen, that's C A R Y N y', all, she was right. Something special is going on here. So special that Gaga announced another U.S. leg at this tour for 2026 and. And she's currently somewhere in Europe doing the same thing. So we're gonna talk about it. Here's my conversation with Karen. Karen, welcome to Cannonball.

[Karen Ganz]

Thank you, Wesley. I love being told I'm right.

[Wesley Morris]

First of all, I gotta just get something out of the way immediately. We saw this show, I, ever since we saw it, have just got songs in my brain. Like Lady Gaga. I don't know what's in her stuff musicologically, but there are a few artists where you just cannot escape the songs. They're not earworms, they're like anacondas. They just live in here and they just sort of sloop around for days and days and days and days. Right now I've got Alejandro on the brain. It is driving me nuts.

[Karen Ganz]

You know how I feel about Alejandro. I think this is one of the best songs ever written. I get chills listening to Alejandro, like, legitimately on the subway here. And my gripe is that she did one verse and one chorus of it at the show. Alejandro deserves, like a two hour concert. I could listen to Alejandro on repeat.

[Wesley Morris]

But, you know, we saw this show together. Cause you made me go or you lured me to going. You didn't force me to do it.

[Karen Ganz]

Insisted.

[Wesley Morris]

I was curious because, you know, our pop music critic, Lindsey Zolads wrote this wonderful review of this show and I was kind of like, I'm gonna go. And no, what I said was, should I go?

[Karen Ganz]

Yes. And I said, I'll buy tickets for the last night. That's where we're going.

[Wesley Morris]

Just to sort of like set a stage for our relationship to this artist. What's yours? Cause it's been 17 years. Karen, what is. What's going on with the two of you?

[Karen Ganz]

Okay, so very early. I was at Rolling Stone when she first came out, and her publicist was this amazing woman named Jenny Body. She's a legend. She was Nirvana's publicist. She said, I have a new artist. Her name is Lady Gaga. Come see her at Splash.

[Wesley Morris]

And I was like, oh, it's Splash at Splash. That's how early RIP Man, New York has not been the same since that place closed. No. Had a lot of good times at Splash, let me tell you.

[Karen Ganz]

But I did not go because I said Lady Gaga and Splash. Like, no. Well, huge regret.

[Wesley Morris]

Did you think it was a drag artist?

[Karen Ganz]

I don't know. I just thought, like, it sounded fluffy.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Karen Ganz]

Anyway, the fame comes out. Wonderful first album. But then, you know, and I'm into all the super pop y dance songs, you know, you've got your poker face, your just dance your. You know, she then goes and she Makes an ep, the Fame Monster, which has three of the best songs ever compiled in pop history in the same breath of each other. Bad Romance, Alejandro and Telephone Teeth. Oh, I know you love that song.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, I'll get to.

[Karen Ganz]

That's for you. Okay. So keeping it moving. I became obsessed with her. I thought Bad Romance was, like, one of the best modern pop songs ever, but I also was very obsessed about her relationship with Madonna. How much was borrowing, how much was homage, how much was stealing. So this was. I'm a very big Madonna fan. You know this now. Your listeners know this. So I think people did know this. So obsessed. Then Born this Way arrives. And I'm not crazy about the song Born this Way. I'm not crazy about the song Judas. But the whole album comes and I'm like, oh, my God, this is like a crazy arena rock album. It's lunatic. It is absolutely out of its mind. It has a song produced by Mutt Lang with a guitar solo by Brian May, which we will talk about. It is brilliant. And I became just, like, completely seduced by its. Like. I couldn't tell if it was serious. I couldn't tell if it was glam. It was. I mean, it's just. There's some of the best pop songwriting out there.

[Wesley Morris]

So.

[Karen Ganz]

So I reviewed that album. I ended up loving it. Then comes Artpop.

[Wesley Morris]

Go on. Oh, Karen.

[Karen Ganz]

So much to say. I reviewed artpop. Yes, I liked some of Artpop. It does not sound great today to me. She was trying to show that she had a relationship to high art that I think that she had inherently, without having to demonstrate it the way she did on that album. So she loses me a little bit. Then she puts out an album called Joanne. She loses me a little bit more, which is sort of like a authentic album.

[Wesley Morris]

That's the, like, stripped down. This is who I really am. One of my middle names is Joanne.

[Karen Ganz]

I'm gonna pull from my life. I'm gonna tell you something meaningful about me. Okay. It's a little too much discography here. I'm just gonna say my relationship to her began on an extreme high. It started to slip. It slipped a little bit more. We get to Chromatica, and I was like, ah, I don't know how I feel about this. People are calling this a return to form album 2020. And I feel terrible. You just asked about my relationship with her. I'm just going through a whole relationship, though. The point is, actually, it's a rollercoaster. I've been up and down for a long time, but I've always believed in Lady Gaga, that there is the kernel of an absolutely brilliant pop icon inside there. Because to me, pop star doesn't just mean songwriter. It doesn't just mean performer. It's like world building. It's spectacle. It's understanding of all of the relationship with the theater, of it, with the character. The person has to be interesting. They have to have the musical child. There's just so much that goes into it. There aren't that many of them. But I always wanted to believe that she still had it and that the truth of this was gonna come back.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, that was actually pretty succinct.

[Karen Ganz]

Honestly, I had to stop myself because.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, and your journey mirrors mine in a lot of ways. I didn't. I wasn't reviewing the albums the way you were, but I began. I was kind of scared of her at first. I think that she was kind of a performance artist in a lot of ways. She was somebody who was satirized. She appeared to be satirizing fame while also being interested enough in it. And she came at this really interesting moment in 2008 and 2009, where our relationship to fame was changing because technology was allowing it to change or encouraging it to change. You know, this is the beginning of the iPhone, Facebook, the Kardashians. And here was this person who was kind of making fun of this fame hunger that the country was experiencing and.

[Karen Ganz]

Sort of fetishizing it at the same time.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, the fetish, it's funny because in order to complete the performance, Gaga seemed to be taking this risk or walking this. This tightrope where in order to satirize the celebrity experience, I must become a famous person myself. And the thing I found scary about that was how much she meant it. Right.

[Karen Ganz]

She commits to every bit.

[Wesley Morris]

She was extremely committed. She would wear, you know, I mean, the famous. The famous iconographies from this period. She wears some carpaccio to the VMAs.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

And, you know, she really is someone who understands the power, you know, much like Madonna, of what it means to make an appearance. Right. Like what it means to be seen. The power of the spectacle, what you should do when millions of eyes are upon you. It was kind of like a mockery of what made Madonna great. You know, this is a student. Madonna is a teacher. Gaga is a student. She's learned a lesson. The lesson is, well, what would it mean to just kind of, like, not take any of this seriously? You know, oh, I'm going to this show. Are there all these cameras and Reporters and microphones. I'm going to literalize this by just wearing actual meat. Y' all want a steak? Y' all want to eat me alive? Well, here, have some carpaccio. I found that funny, a little scary, because what else would she do?

[Karen Ganz]

Arrive in a gigantic egg that she claimed she had been in for a week prior?

[Wesley Morris]

But think about, like, this was a great moment for pop music also because she was at a vanguard for young new at the time, artists, right? This is. She was doing something different from Katy Perry, Kesha, Rihanna, you know, Adele. And I was really curious to see where this fame satire project was gonna go. But I guess the question is, like, what happened? Right? Because she clearly got away from it, got the message, got scrambled. But it's all in the surface of this, you know, half life of a pop star. And by the time she gets to these duets with Tony Bennett In 2014, I was like a tip of the hat to you, Ms. Gaga, because you have officially lived four decades of a career in eight.

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

It's not so much that the work itself was a joke as much as it was she's managed to achieve something where by age, what, like 32? She's 80 years old.

[Mont Blanc Narrator]

Right.

[Karen Ganz]

Is that a good thing?

[Wesley Morris]

She's working with an 80 year old, a legend, one of the greatest voices in recorded sound, Tony Bennett. But the question was, after that collaboration, where does this project go? Is there a new project? Are there new ideas? And I think the thing that sort of turned you off, or at least I'm gonna speak for you, Confused. You turned me off was that it didn't seem. There didn't seem to be a story that was as compelling or interesting or as FASC as what had been going on for those first eight years.

[Karen Ganz]

It felt like she was trying to do a redo. Like, that was me being frothy pop star, whatever. But the real music and the true authenticity comes from my jazz work and from these stripped down songs that I'm writing, which is sort of the plot of A Star Is Born.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Karen Ganz]

Which made me insane.

[Wesley Morris]

It is about the border between the authentic and the inauthentic. And what I love about even the problems that you and I have with keeping the story straight with where it is she's trying to go and who it is she wants to be is that there are always these dualities, right? Is she artificial? Is she authentic? Is the artifice authentic? Or can the authenticity be artificial? Yeah, but there's also this tension between not wanting it and wanting it. Right. Between hunger and indifference. And she began her career playing with not wanting the thing that she claimed that the Persona wanted. Being offered up as meat. Right. But also understanding that there was something hot in the tension.

[Karen Ganz]

I mean, but here's the thing. You don't really become a pop star by accident. This is like the work of exceptional struggle. And, you know, it's sort of like, oh, my God, she found herself so famous. Did she really want it? Yes, the answer is yes. I mean, she wanted it. The first album is called the Fame. And it's more. To me, it's more aspirational than critical.

[Wesley Morris]

You mean as an album, as a concept. Oh, I see. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Karen Ganz]

You know, a lot of people write about Fame early. I mean, she literally called the whole album Fame. And then a year later, it's the fame monster. So it's like you got a taste of it. But obviously she still wanted more. I mean, she's one of the hardest working people in pop in show business.

[Wesley Morris]

And you can see that in the show. I mean, let's just talk about the show then, because I think that the, you know, neither of us is crazy about Mayhem as an album.

[Karen Ganz]

I was not completely sold on Mayhem the album.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Karen Ganz]

But I am beyond sold on Mayhem the tour.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Karen Ganz]

It's growing on me. Because the show is that successful.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. Talk to me about going the first time, knowing how you felt about the album.

[Karen Ganz]

I was open minded. I want to say, you know, I've seen Gaga a lot over the years, and it's like, you cannot deny the voice. I mean, she has an absolutely incredible voice, but I have seen her be in different forms on stage, and I've never seen the version that like, completely clicked, where everything was happening right. For me. Like I. The first tour, I was like, these sets look really cheap or like, I don't know what to underdeveloped. There's a lot of plot in some of these shows, and I'm like, there's too much plot. But I just. I'd never seen the whole thing connect. And that is a complete difference. When you walk into Mayhem, you are immediately sort of wrapped into this world. It's very gothic and dark and interesting. The set is sort of like. How would you describe it?

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, you're. It's. I mean, you know, it's funny. Cause if you like what I would say to set up what is going on with Mayhem is like, if you cut this woman, she would bleed. Madonna, David Bowie, Freddie Mercury, Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson, Christina Aguilera, and Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes. Okay, so that's pretty much what it looks like. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

The stage of this thing, it's like you're looking at like a gothic castle. Right. But I also think that if you cut this show, it would bleed. Tim Burton's out. Alice in Wonderland.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

I think we gotta set the scene or recreate for ourselves what that night was like.

[Karen Ganz]

We had a little light trauma with the start time.

[Wesley Morris]

What time was it supposed to start?

[Karen Ganz]

So she has been going on very precisely at 8:30.

[Wesley Morris]

Why did she not go on the night we went?

[Karen Ganz]

Because unbeknownst to us, but perhaps knownst to others in the arena, it seemed she actually went to the VMAs. The VMAs were that night at UBS arena on Long Island. So she was dressed for an award show, went to an award show, accepted an award for artist of the year. Getting ready for the show. I thought how much it would mean to me to win this award tonight. And I cannot begin to tell you what the this means to me. I thought about, then had to come back, get out of whatever that was she was wearing. It was a giant black, gothic kind of thing. And into her show clothes. You too, my love. I wish I could stay and watch all these amazing performances, but I have to go back to Madison Square Garden.

[Wesley Morris]

Love you.

[Karen Ganz]

Well, we didn't know this was happening. There are people in the suites, they had TVs and they were watching the VMAs.

[Wesley Morris]

They were watching a show.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes. So I didn't know this until the next day. And I'm the idiot sitting there being like, well, I have no idea why she's so late. What's going on? It was, I mean this was Madonna esque, you know, she very regularly goes on late. And I was like, this isn't like you, Gaga.

[Wesley Morris]

And lo and behold, it was not. She was being feted.

[Karen Ganz]

You know, actually, I'll allow it.

[Wesley Morris]

I'll allow it too.

[Karen Ganz]

So anyway, you asked what I thought when I walked in. I walked in, I saw the set. I was like, this is gonna be interesting. But the thing that absolutely crystallized it was the arrival. I am very interested in pop stars arrival, how they arrive on stage, do they pop up from the floor, do they come out from behind? Are they flying know on a Mariah has flown in on a sleigh? I believe I remember, yes. The curtains open and Lady Gaga comes on this absolutely massive, I want to say like two story tall set piece. And it is a giant red dress. Love is just a history that they May prove it.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, it's a tough hit. I would describe it as a giant, red, red tuffet dress.

[Karen Ganz]

And she is atop it, and it is slowly moving into the arena as operatic music is playing. And everybody is sort of singing around her. And it's just like, you did it. I mean, it is the height of drag. It is so. I mean, RuPaul always says this, but, like, it's so stupid. And she is absolutely genius. I knew from that minute, I was like, oh, my God, she's done it. Wait.

[Wesley Morris]

But, Karen, this is never. There's never been an image like this in any previous Gaga show.

[Karen Ganz]

Not like that. No. Wesley, I really almost cried. I could not believe it.

[Wesley Morris]

Karen, now I'm gonna be present with you at the show because, you know, there's a plot which is basically two queens occupy the same chessboard. Only one can win. The queen, of course, being the most powerful person or piece on the chessboard.

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah. I was like, an arts semiotics major. I cannot follow the plot of any of these things she does. I was like, what is happening?

[Wesley Morris]

But this one has a kind of coherence. I mean, it does, because it's about. It's another one of these duality battles. And I think there are more than two selves in this person. But I love that she edited it down to two.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

This Tuffet comes out is the first song she does.

[Karen Ganz]

Bloody Mary.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay. I'm like, well, what is this doing? They've wheeled it out, but then this curtain around the cake tuffet parts. And inside this MF is basically a corset. It's a corset.

[Karen Ganz]

It's a cage.

[Wesley Morris]

And in the corset are trapped her dancers.

[Karen Ganz]

There are seven dancers trapped inside the.

[Wesley Morris]

Dress in a corset. I mean, listen, Camille Paglia couldn't have done it better. She couldn't have done it better. Like, Gloria Steinem couldn't have done a better job.

[Karen Ganz]

Yep.

[Wesley Morris]

It's. I mean, Simone de Beauvoir. Take that.

[Karen Ganz]

No, it's an absolutely incredible image. And then they go into Abracadabra, which is like, you know, a great song for the new album.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Karen Ganz]

The category is Dance or Die. They're doing the dance from that video. And she staggers out of her own corset.

[Wesley Morris]

In an elevator, by the way. There's an elevator in the tuffet, corset, cake, hat, red velvet thing.

[Karen Ganz]

So she descends and then emerges. She bursts through the cage with her cane, and she does some staggery cane choreography, tosses it off stage, carries on, and then returns to do one of what I have always. I never really liked this song because it is just so. It didn't connect to me. It was purely chaotic. But it's Judas, which for some reason works when you're dancing with a giant cake dress. I don't know. And then she goes straight into Shaiza, which is one of my absolute favorite Lady Gaga moments of all time. She literally is speaking fake German. It's not real, which we didn't know at the time. And then she is writing with her giant feathery pen at the Mayhem Tour, which is sort of like a recurring theme. She's got a giant quill pen and she is slamming it around, pretending to write German, and then she's walking back and forth on the very table on which she was writing. Anyway, the opening, like 15 minutes. The opening after the show. Seriously, the best opening act of a pop show I have ever seen, ever. Is relentless.

[Wesley Morris]

Wow.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Karen Ganz]

And at one point, when she was. We'll get there. But she starts. She does the early part of the set, does pull in a lot of her old songs. And you said to me she figured out how to make this work now. Yeah, she figured out how to put these songs into context here. And I started thinking about, like, oh, yeah, that's very interesting. Cause I never really thought about the idea of, like, sculpting an actual narrative out of your songs like that. And having the old ones speak to the new ones in a way that actually is organic.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, the best live musicians feel. Figure out the best sort of spectacle oriented musicians, Madonna being among them. Figure out a way to incorporate the new material with the old material and have them all be of a piece. Beyonce, yes. Has figured that out. I feel like the surprise of this show. I mean, I knew she had that in her. The musicianship is clear. But the satisfaction of hearing something like paparazzi be reinvented as a funeral dirge. Right. And it just deepens what already felt like a creepy and deep song in a way. Now it means a completely different thing to see her doing this. I mean, I'm calling it a funeral dirge because that's the musical style that it's been rearranged into. But, I mean, it's kind of a wedding march the way she does it. She comes out and she takes this walk down the catwalk with this huge wedding train behind her.

[Karen Ganz]

But don't forget, when she comes out, she's on crutches. There's a lot of lurching and limping and twitching.

[Wesley Morris]

In this show, all the themes are coming together.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Being looked at, being watched. Yes. Like her interest in darkness. I mean, again, this is a show about death. It is a show about surviving death. It is a show about being brought back from the dead. It is a show about wrestling in death for more life. It's a show about being killed, being envied to death. There's a real mortuary sort of cemeterial dimension to this show, but also with.

[Karen Ganz]

A caveat, which is very Madonna, which is that dancing is the thing that can be an antidote to death.

[Wesley Morris]

Right.

[Karen Ganz]

Constantly coming back.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. Like, I mean, she.

[Karen Ganz]

I mean, it's Dance or Dies. Right.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, I was gonna say literally a song called Dance or Die. Yeah. I just. I love the way she's thinking about how the catalog can save her. Right. The catalog.

[Karen Ganz]

And it literally can. It literally.

[Wesley Morris]

It truly can. But I mean, so what are the moments in this show that really stood out to you?

[Karen Ganz]

So she ends and she lands that first act on Poker Face, which she turns into sort of like a dance off between like her Personas.

[Wesley Morris]

Personas?

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

The old lady in red and this like princess witch figure who. Who needs to die. She is killed by this woman in white.

[Karen Ganz]

Is that the plot?

[Wesley Morris]

I'm just. We're just working it out as we go, Karen.

[Karen Ganz]

Cause I'm picturing the second act, or. Yeah. When she's doing disease and she's wrestling with it basically in a gigantic litter box.

[Wesley Morris]

So you got all hot and bothered when they wheeled out that giant dress. I got hot. I didn't know I was gonna get hot and bothered. But they wheeled out. There's a second prop that Act 2 begins with. They wheel it out and I get one of my favorite songs from this new album. It's called Perfect Celebrity.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

And on stage. What? I. It's just. You called it a litter box. Shame on you, Karen Ganz. It is a sandbox. It's a. All right, fine. It's a sandbox. They have buried Lady Gaga in a heap of sand.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

But I think the, like, what is so beautiful about this moment is it is simultaneously ridiculous, but meant. She means it.

[Karen Ganz]

Don'T forget. What else is buried with her in the litter box?

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, full ass skeleton.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

And some skulls. There are humans attached to those skulls.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes, Human.

[Wesley Morris]

Living humans. But Perfect Celebrity is a song that sounds great on its own, but given the context of this sandbox and her commitment to singing, like, this woman could die singing this song. I know she could suffocate on sand. And she's just belting this song in this sandbox. It is maybe the performance of the night. There are many good performances in this show.

[Karen Ganz]

But, I mean, you recall how the song ends. She's basically fighting to the death with the arm of the red character, which is thrust out in the sand and choking her. This actually, this was a feat of, like, theatrical singing. I couldn't even believe she was doing. I mean, like, she's literally being choked and fighting, like a physical struggle with this arm while she's singing.

[Wesley Morris]

In the sandbox are three moon men, which is the VMA statue. She's got her artist of the year statue with these skulls and skeletons. Now, I don't. We didn't talk about this. I thought those moon men were just like digitally inserted into the moon.

[Karen Ganz]

Oh, no, I knew they were real. Also, I believe they're moon people now.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, sorry. But also, this is what I'm saying about the camp.

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, she's doing this number that probably worked just fine without the moon people.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

And she's fighting the skeleton and trying to stay alive.

[Karen Ganz]

But also there's these three statues right over her.

[Wesley Morris]

I love my moon men. I love them. I love the adoration. I love the respect.

[Karen Ganz]

Yep.

[Wesley Morris]

And more camp. When the number's over, some trolley dancer comes out and snatches one of the.

[Karen Ganz]

Moon men and runs off with it.

[Wesley Morris]

It's just. I don't know, I just really. The humor, the, like the earnestness, the.

[Karen Ganz]

So that's the thing for me, right? Because to me, like, there's a lot of humor in what she's doing. Like, I rewatched some of my videos from the show and I literally was laughing out loud. Like, they are just ridicul. But then sometimes I ask myself, is she really in on the joke? Because, I mean, I know that she is. But so much of the act and so much of the Persona is this, like, relentless sincerity. Particularly when it comes to the fandom and in interviews, too. Like, I've never read an interview with Lady Gaga where I've been like, she's a real cut up, you know, like, she's very serious all the time. And it's really interesting because the humor is in there. It is in the music. It is ludicrous, ridiculous, draggy, campy stuff. But she seems to think that she has to bring. And maybe this is the Jackson main alley Star is born conceit. That's a construct over her whole career. She kind of feels like she has to be a serious artist sometimes. And I'm like, I just want to see the whole picture. And I feel like this show. I did see the whole picture. I'm trying, you know, I'm putting the threads together of why I thought it was. Why it worked as well as it did.

[Wesley Morris]

This leaves to me the. I wanna talk about Act 4. And our princess figure has. Basically, they've. I guess she and the princess, the dead princess and the red Queen, Red crone, have made amends, I guess.

[Karen Ganz]

You know, I can't follow this.

[Wesley Morris]

But, yes, she sends the white princess in a kind of gondola down to the end of the stage. And the songs that take her there are these rearranged versions of A Million Reasons and Shallow.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes. Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

And that's the song that transports her to the end of the stage.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Where a piano awaits. And I didn't need to see her play piano, but again, it's kind of like Beyonce at the beginning of the Renaissance tour. I'm like, I will just watch three.

[Karen Ganz]

Hours of this, by the way. I do this really well. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. When the piano comes out, I'm like, oh, right. This is another mode of this artist that she hasn't even bothered to show. She could have just spent the whole show doing this. But she sits at this piano and she does Edge of Glory.

[Karen Ganz]

Well, first she does her biggest hit in the past few years.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, Die With a Smile is the first song she does. And then she does it to Edge of Laurie.

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Seeing her do this song by herself with a piano on stage, transformative. This song is still in the top 10, as we are speaking, by the way. Still. After a year, I had a hard.

[Karen Ganz]

Time believing that it was as big as it is.

[Wesley Morris]

And then what did you see?

[Karen Ganz]

And then I saw an arena full of people freaking out. And I was like, I have to record this so I can actually prove I saw it.

[Wesley Morris]

And that was the moment in the show where I saw the most phones.

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, there were phones everywhere in Madison Square Garden recording or singing a song that y' all already downloaded.

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

But to her credit, she made it new. She made it mean something else.

[Karen Ganz]

It does sound like one of her power ballads when she's doing it. As though it came from her pen. Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

As though it's all her.

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Karen, I want to take a break.

[Karen Ganz]

Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

And I want to come back, and I kind of want to talk about what all this means, because it's really profound. And it did not occur to me to even think this way until I saw this show. So we're going to take a break. When we come back, we're going to talk about the bigger picture of Mayhem.

[Karen Ganz]

Hi, I'm Juliette from New York Times Games and I'm here talking to fans about our games. So you play New York Times games? Yes. Do you have a favorite Connections? It just scratches an itch in my brain. It's really out of the box thinking with that game I play with my husband every night. I refuse to let him play it without me. He will always get the purple first and I always get like the fun ones that he doesn't think about. I love that. It's like a real life connection while you guys play Connections. Very sweet. I promise I didn't play that. You can play all New York times [e-mail] games or on our app.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay, we are back. Karen Ganz. Thanks for spilling your brains about Lady Gaga, by the way. She would appreciate that.

[Karen Ganz]

Some spilled brains, some real dance or die threat there. Just one other thing. Did you notice this during the show? Like the constant threatening to put your hands up?

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yes.

[Karen Ganz]

Like in a way that became menacing at a certain point.

[Wesley Morris]

You can put your fucking hands up. I mean, it was like, whoa, it's a little intense. Yeah, listen. Put your fucking hands up. New York City.

[Karen Ganz]

Listen, when Gaga tells you to do.

[Wesley Morris]

Something, that's the kind of power that she has. And I think that what was so fascinating about at least my experience at that show was it was also a display of, I don't want to say raw power, I want to say refined power. This was a person who understands their relationship to the people in the room, but also their relationship to the music. Right. And like, what the music can be harnessed and repurposed for. Can you talk to me a little about, like, what Mayhem as a concert going experience is doing in relation to Lady Gaga writ large? Right? Like, what is it correcting? What is it clarifying? What is it asking you to forget?

[Karen Ganz]

Well, it is interesting what she left out. I mean, for me it was clarifying and just like it was, I, as I said earlier, you know, I've had like a sort of rollercoaster relationship with her career. But you know, when you've seen a true North Star, I mean, like, she's the real deal and you just want her to get back there. So for me it was clarifying in that it is literally, it's not an eras tour. I cannot stand the idea that there's such a thing as an eras tour that you need to distinctly, you know, separate parts of your Career.

[Wesley Morris]

That was just some costume changes.

[Karen Ganz]

I mean, that was. It's a great tour.

[Wesley Morris]

But eras, no.

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah, no, but it's not that. No, but what it does is it brings together all the elements of the theatricality and the humor and the over the topness and then the understatedness. Like all the different Gagas were there. You had your on a gondola singing Shallow Gaga. You have your, you know, on the top of the giant thing. There's also a giant skull we didn't even talk about yet. Spins around another incredible set piece.

[Wesley Morris]

This woman spends an entire act of the show performing in a giant skull.

[Karen Ganz]

And the giant sandbox. There's many things, but for me it was clarifying into sort of like a statement of artistic purpose. Like the career is not over. We don't even know where she is in it. I enjoy what you were saying about her ability to see the future of her career. That there's many. There are many iterations of it to come. But to be a pop superstar making an arena spectacle, that's other thing. We'd even talk about arena versus stadium. You know, you can control so much more in an arena. It actually is intimate in a way.

[Wesley Morris]

I wanted to ask you about this. Cause I get it now, but. And you know, as a New Yorker. You're a New Yorker. You're a real New Yorker. I was wondering about what it meant that she was doing MSG.

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Versus making us go all the way out to MetLife Stadium in New Jersey.

[Karen Ganz]

You're watching screens, you know, when you go to a stadium show, no matter what. And Beyonce perfected that and elevated it and brought it someplace completely different. Like the screen is the art. But I really think that a lot of the Gaga stuff is intimate in a different way. And that's why part of what I love, and I've talked about this earlier too, is the power ballads and the more rock oriented part of her catalog, and particularly in Born this Way at the end, where she chooses to do a piano song. And it's a quiet moment. A moment like that might not be able to hold the stadium the way that it holds the arena. And, you know, so we saw the Edge of Glory, which is one of my favorites. But there's another song to me that is crucial to that set. And she played it my second night, which was you and I. Oh, so you and I, to me, is like one of the most clear showcases of the connection between the Born this Way era and the current moment in terms of theatricality and the way that power ballads have played a role in her career.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Karen Ganz]

And I think we need to talk about the 2011 VMAs.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Have not thought about that since then. And I don't even really remember what that is.

[Karen Ganz]

Right. I came prepared to talk about this, Wesley, because it's important to me, because I felt it was a moment that really was a turning point that crystallized in her career about how far she was willing to push and then how the music could sort of bring it back.

[Wesley Morris]

Can we watch it? Let's watch it.

[Karen Ganz]

We can.

[Wesley Morris]

Lady Gaga, she left me.

[Karen Ganz]

She said it always starts out good. And then the guys, meaning me, I'm one of the guys. She was so famous that they asked her to host the show that year, and she came out in a character that she had debuted in the video for her song, you and I.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Karen Ganz]

One of my faves, obviously. And the character's called Joe Calderon. As sort of like her drag king Andrew Dice Clay Persona. Joe Calderon is narrating a conversation that he has had with Lady Gaga. I'm not real theater and you and I. But then sits down, snaps immediately into theatrical cabaret, rock ballad, Gaga. It's been a long time since I came around Been a long longtown but I'm back in town.

[Wesley Morris]

She takes off the jacket. It's like the white T shirt is already rolled up at the sleeves. I mean, is there a pack of cigarettes in there? There has to be, cuz she was smoking during the.

[Karen Ganz]

Ladies and gentlemen, Brian May. So Brian May of Queen, who plays on the song, arrives and they cut away the reaction shot and it is Dave Grohl looking happier than he has been the entire night. Trust me. He's like, oh, thank God. There's a reason why I came to this thing. This to me, is the full encapsulation of the entire Gaga project. And she figured it out in 2011. This is a very long time ago.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. She's still at her peak of what I consider the project, the fame, Persona oriented project. What's real, what's not. How far can I go with the performance art aspect?

[Karen Ganz]

She's pushing the envelope at the VMAs. We're not talking about a show known for its, like, you know, high art aspirations.

[Wesley Morris]

Right, right, right.

[Karen Ganz]

This is exceptionally bold. And I actually can't even believe they let her do this. I mean, this speaks to the power of how. Of her stardom at that moment that she went to the VMAs and said, I'm gonna do a drag king. Persona. We're gonna perform one of my more famous songs with Brian. Maybe I'm gonna do choreography to it. And this is just what I'm doing.

[Wesley Morris]

And, you know, it just occurred to me, I'm an idiot. Like, the tension here for me is. And I'm not making a pun, but how bad do you want me? Which is a song on Mayhem. It's the song that sounds most like a Taylor Swift. It's the Taylor Swift song.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

And the apotheosis of that tension for me is applause.

[Karen Ganz]

I'm here for the applause I'm here.

[Wesley Morris]

For the applause yeah, I'm here for.

[Karen Ganz]

The applause Plause here for the applause.

[Wesley Morris]

Applause way that you scream and cheer for me I'm here for the applause the applause, the applause Give me the.

[Karen Ganz]

Thing that I love Yep, I'm enjoying this dramatic reading of applause.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, put your hands and make em touch. That's the last song on artpop, which is telling to me. Then we'll get to the second verse of that song, which to me is just the deepest shit.

[Karen Ganz]

Are you referring to the Coons line?

[Wesley Morris]

How did you know?

[Karen Ganz]

One second, I'm a coon stand. Suddenly the coon says, me. Pop culture was in art now arts and pop culture in me. I live all the applause, applause, applause. I'm gonna cry. Covering the rollout of this album in real time, I was at Rolling Stone. She did an event at the Brooklyn Navy Yard with a giant coons. Do you remember this? No. And the album was coming out that night at midnight. I needed to be at home to review it, so I couldn't go to the album.

[Wesley Morris]

I was in Boston when this album came out. I was still in Boston.

[Karen Ganz]

When you're a music journalist, you really just remember the pain of covering everything. Frank Ocean, when he was building a staircase. Do you remember this on a video?

[Wesley Morris]

I remember that.

[Karen Ganz]

And I watched him build a staircase for like seven hours. I was like, I'm going to Kilme.

[Wesley Morris]

Somewhere in anticipation of Blonde.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes. Anyway, but get to the second verse of the song.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, I mean, the second verse, like, includes the line, one minute I'm the Coons fan, suddenly the Coons is me.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

I think it took me three experiences with that song to hear what the lyric even was. But then I was like, you know what? Here we go. Yeah, this is my new favorite person until it doesn't last anymore. But here's the whole project right here in this whole song, but also in this one line. And it like, she could have picked anybody. Karen she could, you know, one minute, I'm the Warhol fan, suddenly the Warhol's me. One minute I'm the Picasso fan, suddenly the Picasso's me.

[Karen Ganz]

It had to be Koons.

[Wesley Morris]

She picks Jeff Koons.

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

The guy who makes, like, ceramic Michael Jackson and bubble statues at life size.

[Karen Ganz]

And giant dogs.

[Wesley Morris]

The giant metal balloon dogs. Right? The thingy nest of pop artists, Right. Like the objectiest of the pop artists. The labor. Right. The weight. The deceptive weight of a koonj.

[Karen Ganz]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Like the illusory weight and heft of a metal balloon. It just looks like you could just pick it up and, like, walk out of the. Walk out of MoMA with it. But, oh, no, it weighs three tons.

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Applause like, on its own terms is just. I mean, to me, it's top five. Gaga.

[Karen Ganz]

Yep.

[Wesley Morris]

But there's also, like, a real understanding of how this is gonna go. The idea that what artpop is also doing is crystallizing that moment where you transition from being a girl with a dream to a person where the dream is a problem or the dream has some costs. But applause to me is like, I'm just gonna tell you where I am, and y' all ain't gonna believe me. Cause y' all think this is an act. Y' all don't know what. I have tricked you so thoroughly into not being able to tell the difference between me and Joe Calderon that I'm gonna give you a song that is just telling you what I want, and you won't even think I mean it. That's who she wants to be. That's who she thinks she's been turned into. Suddenly the Coons is me.

[Karen Ganz]

But what happens after this album cycle?

[Wesley Morris]

Well, that's when she ages into Tony Bennett. Right?

[Karen Ganz]

Because she pushed it. I mean, it's great. Art pop is a beautiful disaster to me. I mean, it's hilarious.

[Wesley Morris]

Your review captures what a beautiful disaster it is.

[Karen Ganz]

There's one line in that review that I actually am proud of, which is where I said that it was like. It was ART Directed by RuPaul, Dr. Ruth and Beavis and Butthead. Every now and then, I got a zinger. That was one of my favorite lines I'd ever written. It's very true. So the audience, though, there's sort of like a little bit of a reaction, and then she reacts to the reaction. And I was curious to talk to you about her fans and the reaction to the reaction and the way that she has navigated the fandom over the years, because, you know, she is mother Monster.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Karen Ganz]

Keep in mind that Gaga arrived, like, at the young person. Right. But she was still mother. Right. Even as an exceptionally young person. A lot of that I think she was. You know, she does a fair amount of borrowing and homage to the queer community. Obviously, mother is a very common trope in drag houses and, you know, and just searching for mothers. I don't wanna take us too far off course.

[Wesley Morris]

This is on course, ma'.

[Karen Ganz]

Am.

[Wesley Morris]

Keep going.

[Karen Ganz]

There's one. You know, I saw Madonna's last tour seven times. Cause I was worried it might be the last time in the arena. I had to do it. There was a moment she was describing during the AIDS crisis when she was visiting a patient in the hospital and that no one wanted to visit these people. And, you know, she really was on the front lines for the queer community very early. And that she crawled into bed with this young man and he grabbed her hand and he said, mother, thank you for coming. I actually cried in MSG when she was telling the story. I was just thinking about the relationship of fandoms to the motherhood of it all. Gaga has really without even perhaps she never probably knew that story, but she has taken her fandom, you know, by the hand. That way she speaks so directly to them about caring about their needs. She knows that it's a huge queer fandom, and she dedicates large swaths of the show to it. Did you feel that? I mean, I felt it during the show, but even when it wasn't as explicit. Because in the past, she's done a lot more speechifying.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. I think the power of that night was just how she didn't need to say anything. You know, she does Born this Way. And there's like, part of the camp for me was the way she does it, right. She's like, let me talk to my queer community. You guys are special. You guys are one of a kind. You're wonderful people. But you already know that. But I'm gonna tell you anyway.

[Karen Ganz]

My mama told me when I was.

[Wesley Morris]

Young, we were almost superstars. And then she starts singing Porn this Way.

[Karen Ganz]

It was a very fun, brassy version of that song. To me, it really felt celebratory. Like in the past, I had been a little eye rolly about Born this Way. I find the lyrics exceptionally cringy. I do feel like it sounds like Express Yourself. And Madonna did play a mashup of the two songs on tour, and it was hilarious. See that hilarity and high camp. But I don't know, I let myself let go and become Part of the crowd for that moment, especially during the second show, I saw her, and I was like. I was touched.

[Wesley Morris]

It's. Well, part of it is, you know, I mean, I feel like this iteration of Lady Gaga sort of makes sense for the time that we're in this, like, awareness of death, the, like, insistence that it is around us. The awareness that it is around us.

[Karen Ganz]

That the stakes seem exceptionally high.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, on the one hand, you know, ha ha ha. She's performing an entire act of the show on a giant skull. I mean, for real. Ha ha ha. But also, holy shit. But I think that, like, this Mother business, this awareness that there are real harms being done. I found her trust in understanding what we had all gathered to experience to be enough and did not need further comment.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes. And I think actually what you just said was so interesting to me because this is the most disciplined she has ever been. This is the most practiced and precise and crisp the show has ever been. And it's for the tour called Mayhem. It's so ironic that she has actually found her order in what would ostensibly be one of the more chaotic periods of her career. But I think that she's giving us the controlled chaos, is letting us. Like, when I go to a show like that, I kept telling people, they're like, you're going again. I don't think I'm going again. I need the serotonin. Like, I legitimately need it. I really feel something in that room.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. I think that the thing that makes her. This iteration of her perfect for now is that, like, we're comfortable with grimness, with the cataclysmic, with imminent danger. It's meaningful to me that a song called Die With a Smile easily translates to a relationship between a fan and a fandom. I think that. But her conception of herself, to the degree that she has conceived of herself as mother feels. I felt the thing. The thing that you felt is the thing that I felt in that room, which is that she was here to protect. She was here for these two and a half hours to say, here, you're fine. I'm not gonna beat you over the head with how wonderful you queer people are. Y' all know I am gonna tell you anyway with one song, though. But it was more the feeling of goodwill and safety and comfort in a show that was in no way comfortable. But there's also something really. I understood that this is a person and this is part of the safety. Right. This is part of the mother aspect. I felt like this is a person who would Die on that stage for us.

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, because she wants it that much, right?

[Karen Ganz]

I think she wants to give that much.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I think she's the pop star of everybody. Just like name the 12 most elite pop stars we have. She's the one who has the fire that will burn you. Right. It is both a beacon and infernal in some way.

[Karen Ganz]

I mean, I think Madonna shares the flame.

[Wesley Morris]

She's not one of the 12 people. I mean, like current pop stars right now.

[Karen Ganz]

Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

You're taking her out of this generation of like 45 and under.

[Karen Ganz]

I don't think Beyonce would die for us.

[Wesley Morris]

No, no, no. She knows better.

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah. She has the guardrails, right? Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I just feel Taylor Swift wouldn't die for these people. For us. She wouldn't die for us.

[Karen Ganz]

No.

[Wesley Morris]

She's about to. She's about to get a divorce is what was. What's happening.

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah. We haven't gotten there yet.

[Wesley Morris]

Not from Travis Kelce, but from the fans. 100%. A change is a coming in that relationship.

[Karen Ganz]

You don't feel that Gaga is beholden to the fandom in any way? Despite all the language about.

[Wesley Morris]

No, no beholden, no devoted. There's a shamelessness.

[Karen Ganz]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, the showmanship is really about her saying, I'm yours.

[Karen Ganz]

Listen. So when you said shamelessness, it's just not that that's a bad thing. It just triggered for me the end of the show where she comes out makeup free.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. I'm packing up.

[Karen Ganz]

You fear the show might be over.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm packing up. And Karen's like, no, go on.

[Karen Ganz]

Well, she hasn't done the Taylor Swift song yet, I think is probably what I said. And she is bare faced, just in a T shirt, and she starts doing How Bad do youo Want Me? And she does the thing that sometimes pop stars do, which is like the peek behind the scenes. Right. This is my makeup chair. These are my dressers, These are my dancers. We're under the stage and she comes up from under the stage onto the stage to the Taylor Swift song, as naked as she has been all night.

[Wesley Morris]

Just boots, tights, the shirt and the sock on her head to sing how.

[Karen Ganz]

Bad do you want me?

[Wesley Morris]

That's amazing.

[Karen Ganz]

It really is amazing because she could have ended on the high of bad.

[Wesley Morris]

Romance, but Karen, for her to come out and essentially just stay on stage as her undecorated self is what I would, is, I guess the way to put it. Her at her most raw and just like be having a ball. She is Having so much fun. At the end of this show.

[Karen Ganz]

She is. And she's not doing choreography. She's just kind of dancing.

[Wesley Morris]

Just dancing.

[Karen Ganz]

And she looks so happy. Yeah. I mean, also, you think about it, she arrives atop this massive dress, cake, corset thing. The most high, camped up Queen of hearts. Yes. That you possibly could imagine somebody being. And she ends it essentially as naked as she could possibly be. She's taken you on the whole journey of her whole thing, and it really does come together.

[Wesley Morris]

No, I mean, I think that, you know, this is really a show about death and dying, but also about what it means to be alive in the middle of all that death and despair. And just the idea of her walking up and down that catwalk, just dancing and clapping and singing some more. Like not knowing when to end her own show.

[Karen Ganz]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Karen Ganz]

There's always, like five false goodbyes. You're like, well, she's on her knees. That must be it. Nope, she's back up.

[Wesley Morris]

Even when we do.

[Karen Ganz]

I didn't want this tour to end. I went three times. Leslie.

[Wesley Morris]

Karen Gans. Thank you. We Gaga ed. It was great.

[Karen Ganz]

We did.

[Wesley Morris]

Thank you for doing this. I really appreciate it.

[Karen Ganz]

Thank you. I was gonna make a pun, but make it.

[Wesley Morris]

Make it.

[Karen Ganz]

I was like, we've already done the edge of glory. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I was like, we've reached the edge of glory.

[Karen Ganz]

We approached and then surpassed the edge of glory.

[Wesley Morris]

Hanging on a moment with you.

[Karen Ganz]

The edge. The edge, the edge, the edge, the edge, the edge, the edge. You gotta finish it. It's like a.

[Mont Blanc Narrator]

Hi, I'm Ivan Penn. I'm an energy reporter for the New York Times. I think a lot of people take electricity for granted, but it's an essential piece of some of the biggest stories right now. The rise of artificial intelligence, the threat of climate change, and the real challenges that everyday people are facing with increasing electric bills. I spend my days talking to experts, sometimes traveling to really remote places and investigating the role that energy plays in these huge issues. I'm just one of hundreds and hundreds of journalists at the Times, experts in what they cover, who carry the same level of commitment to their research reporting. And that's the beauty of the New York Times. We're all working together to help you better understand and make sense of the world today. So if that sounds like something that connects with you and you're not a subscriber yet, you can go to nytimes.com subscribe.

[Wesley Morris]

We did it.

[Karen Ganz]

We did.

[Wesley Morris]

Another kick of all y'.

[Karen Ganz]

All.

[Wesley Morris]

This episode was produced by Janelle Anderson. Elissa Dudley, John White and Austin Mitchell, with production assistance from Kate lepresti. Lisa Tobin, she's our editor. This episode was engineered by Daniel Ramirez. It was recorded by Maddie Masiello. Kyle Grandillo and Nick Pittman. Dan Powell and Diane Wong did the original music. And our theme music, as it always is, is by Justin Ellington. Bobby Doherty took the picture for our show art. Our video team is Brooke Minters and Felice Leon. This episode was filmed by Alfredo Chiarapa and Lauren Pruitt. It was edited by Jeremy Rocklin and Jamie Heffitts. We're on YouTube. Watch and subscribe, please. Thanks for listening, everybody. We'll be back next week. And this isn't real. This is really happening. That's my Rosemary's Baby impersonation.