Dear Haters of 'Marty Supreme'...

Summary

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Cannonball with Wesley Morris

Episode: "Dear Haters of 'Marty Supreme'..."
Date: January 29, 2026
Host: Wesley Morris
Guest: Sasha Weiss

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Wesley Morris and guest host Sasha Weiss dig into the cultural tempest around the film Marty Supreme, which has sharply divided critics, audiences, and Oscar voters alike. With scathing reviews, walkouts, and passionate defenses, Morris and Weiss tackle why so many people hate (and why some love) Marty Mouser—the abrasive, charismatic, and deeply Jewish lead character played by Timothée Chalamet. Using pointed commentary, fan correspondence, and a freewheeling "Hall of Shame" segment, Morris and Weiss explore issues of likability, Jewish representation, shamelessness, and cultural discomfort. The episode is a keen, personal—and occasionally hilarious—examination of how art and identity clash on the big screen and beyond.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Marty Supreme: The Film, the Frenzy, and the Backlash

• [01:00] Wesley describes Marty Supreme's critical and commercial success, and towers of Oscar nominations, yet notes vitriol in the public response, especially toward the main character Marty Mouser.
  • “The plot is pretty straightforward. It's about an ambitious Jewish kid slash ping pong champ…in the Lower East Side of Manhattan in 1952, just a few years after the Holocaust.” – Wesley ([01:23])
• Sasha shares a firsthand account: her friend was so overwhelmed by the film’s violence and chaos she nearly “got physically ill” and wanted to leave mid-movie ([02:48]).

Audience Reactions – Read Alouds

• Katie M., North Carolina: “I just walked out of this movie. My God… There are no redeeming qualities to this movie. Think of the most obnoxious person you know, behaving at their very worst for two and a half hours and you're trapped in a room with them.” – Read by Sasha ([03:29])
• Julian B., Massachusetts: “All I wanted to do was go home and take a shower to wash off the unpleasantness.” – Read by Wesley ([04:02])

The Safdie World & Antihero Centrality

• Wesley contextualizes directors Josh and Benny Safdie’s filmography: “They're New Yorkers. They make gritty, scuzzy movies about New York City. And…the people at the center…aren’t people who, at least in this century, tend to get centered.” ([04:33])

2. Who Is Marty Mouser?

• Dissection of Marty's abrasive qualities and their purpose within the film:
  • “He’s one of those rat-a-tat talkers. Like, he never shuts up…his mouth stays open for most of the movie.” – Wesley ([06:05])
  • Sasha notes Chalamet manages to be “a little bit unappealing physically…he has this kind of like open-mouthed stare.” ([06:19])

Shamelessness and Unapologetic Striving

• Marty’s drive and lack of remorse:
  • "He apologizes for nothing. He doesn't have a lot of remorse, regret, chagrin. He is unabashed, he is shameless. And if he wants something, he is going to try to obtain it..." – Wesley ([06:34])
• His Jewish identity as both an engine and a shield:
  • “He figures his own ascent and his will to triumph as a Jewish thing. He says at one point…‘I'm Hitler's worst nightmare because I'm on top.’” – Sasha ([08:27])

Love/Hate: The Allure and Annoyance of Marty

• Sasha: “His self belief, his silver tongued quality, his improvisatory quality…in one setting...or in this kind of buttoned up world of table tennis, he is always himself. Even though he's lying all the time. There’s a kind of purity to him.” ([09:26])
• Wesley on Marty as a classic American striver; Sasha on his “resourceful, canny, New York type” appeal. ([07:25-08:12])

Representative Jewishness and Audience Discomfort

• Sasha raises if discomfort is “about his Jewishness,” mentioning Marty embodies “some of the ugliest stereotypes about Jews”—money-grubbing, scheming, sexual rapaciousness ([13:03]).
• The movie, they agree, is “very aware of its own Jewishness and this feeling that he embodies...the ugly stereotypes about Jewish people” ([13:36]).

3. The Holocaust Scene—Layers of Meaning

[17:48–27:40]

• Sasha’s favorite scene: Marty, at a Ritz dinner, engineers an encounter centered around his ping-pong partner Bella Kletzky's Holocaust tattoo and backstory.
• Through storytelling, cinematic flashbacks, and a con, the movie blends tragedy, dark comedy, manipulation, and meta-commentary on Holocaust representation.

Memorable Quote:
"He tells that he was in the woods…he smears [honey] all over his body…and this sticky body being licked by ten men." – Sasha ([22:22])

• Wesley explains the additional layer crafted by casting Geza Röhrig (star of Son of Saul) and critiques Holocaust depictions as “aesthetic sportsmanship…trying to outdo what’s come before” ([25:01]).
• The scene’s irreverence, profundity, and gall:
  • “Think about the flex of turning a thing that many directors build their whole careers trying to depict…This guy’s like, ‘Yeah, I’ll give it to you in 10 seconds. I did it.’" – Wesley ([26:20])
  • The scene’s “blasphemous” joke-iness and artistry becomes a skeleton key to the movie’s worldview.

4. Shamelessness as Virtue and Weapon

[29:59+]

• Wesley: “This movie is shameless. The movie has no shame. And I don't know, it's like that shamelessness, you know, corresponds to a whole constellation of shamelessnesses.” ([29:59])
• Sasha elaborates on how Marty’s “life force and vitality” is both a product of trauma and something irrepressible, and how those contradictions power the film ([28:22]).
• The pair launch into "Hall of Shame," nominating cultural figures who embody “productive” shamelessness.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Marty’s Jewish Striving:
  “He figures his own ascent and his will to triumph as a Jewish thing…‘I'm Hitler's worst nightmare because I'm on top. I'm here and I’m on top.’” – Sasha ([08:27])
• On Audience Discomfort:
  “Maybe a discomfort with, like, a guy who embodies like some of the ugliest stereotypes about Jews…not knowing what to do with that.” – Sasha ([13:03])
• On the Holocaust Scene’s Audacity:
  "I watched that entire sequence with my jaw dropped. Because…this guy’s like, ‘Yeah, I’ll give it to you in 10 seconds. I'll do it in 10 seconds.’ And that itself is a kind of reprehensible flex.” – Wesley ([26:20])
• On Shamelessness as Art:
  “Shamelessness is very aware of the conventions that it is pouring itself all over—that it’s gasolining.” – Sasha ([40:50])
• On Marty’s Mixed Legacy:
  “He knows the history. He is both reacting against and trying to advance forward. That is the power of the character…he can't help himself but to be barreling forward at all times while dragging this history with him and insisting that it come.” – Wesley ([41:18])

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The Hall of Shame: An Ode to Productive Shamelessness

(Segment begins [31:03])

• Mickey Sabbath (Philip Roth’s “Sabbath’s Theater”): A despicable, randy, grieving puppeteer whose shamelessness is paradoxically the vehicle for “beautiful thinking about love, about sex, about spirituality, about grief.” ([32:03])
• Grace Jones (as Strangé in “Boomerang”): Defies decorum, embodies “I love my vulgar self,” upends both racial and sexual expectations ([33:43]).
• Ali G / Sacha Baron Cohen: “His shamelessness was a kind of dye in the veins of their [establishment figures’] shamelessness.” ([36:06])
• The B-52s: “What you are hearing in their uniqueness is a very particular kind of shamelessness…they have applied their shamelessness to their mastery of the form…I just think the B52s are a great example of this because there’s a version of this band that sucks. The thing that makes them great is that they have applied their shamelessness to their mastery of the form.” – Wesley ([39:56])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:12: Introduction to Marty Supreme and host/guest setup
• 03:29: Reading and discussion of scathing fan comments
• 06:05: Deep dive into Marty Mouser’s character
• 09:10: Debate on Jewishness, anti-Semitism, and audience discomfort
• 17:48–27:40: The Holocaust scene: analysis and meta-critique
• 29:59: Shamelessness as theme, prelude to “Hall of Shame”
• 31:03–41:24: Hall of Shame segment: cultural analysis via icons of shamelessness

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Tone and Takeaways

The episode captures both the seriousness and the irreverence of its subject—analyzing Marty Supreme’s provocations with warmth, intellectual rigor, and humor. Morris and Weiss interrogate not just why people recoil from Marty, but why the power of art sometimes demands characters who are unlikable, shameless, and stubbornly themselves. Their playful, personal, and unsparing conversation is both a defense and a celebration of complicated cultural works—and a call for dignity inside shamelessness (and vice versa).

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For New Listeners

You’ll come away from this episode with a nuanced sense of what makes Marty Supreme so polarizing—and why that very polarization is, for Morris and Weiss, a marker of the vitality of both the film and its titular antihero. Expect tough questions, generous analysis, and lots of laughter. The conversation is both a tribute to and a case study in why art’s discomfort zones matter.

Transcript

[A]

My name is Thomas Gibbonsnev. I'm a journalist at the New York Times. I served in the Marine Corps as an infantryman. When it comes to reporting on the.

[B]

Front line, I think nothing is more important than talking to the people involved.

[A]

Hearing their stories, and being able to connect that with people thousands of miles away. Anything that can make something like this more personal, I think is well worth the risk. New York Times subscribers make it possible for us to keep doing this vital coverage. If you'd like to subscribe, you can do [e-mail] sl subscribe. I'm Wesley Morris and this is Cannonball. Today we like some Marte hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. We like some Marte Marty Supreme. It's a hit. It's a hit at the box office and the critics like it and so do the people who give out the Oscars because they just gave it a lot of the big ones, including nominations, by the way. Best picture, best director, that's for Josh Safdie. And best actor for Timothee Chalamet, AKA Marty Supreme. I am all for this, the movie and Marty. They, you know, vaulted right over my expectations for what I want from a movie. I just had a really good time at this thing and the plot is pretty straightforward. It's about an ambitious Jewish kid slash ping pong champ. It's not really that that's ambitious. He's in the Lower east side of Manhattan in 1952, just a few years after the Holocaust. But listen, over the last few weeks, it's become pretty clear that a lot of people watching this movie do not feel the way I feel about it. They really do not like this movie. They hate it. Just look at the comments that people are leaving. Omanola Darkus review of this movie for the New York Times. I mean, they are lifting a leg. It's not great. And so much of what people hate is Marty himself. My friend Sasha Weiss has a lot of thoughts about what is going on here. And so she's basically gonna host with me this week to try to work it out. Sasha, welcome back to Cannonball.

[B]

Thank you, Wesley. So people are just having really, really strong reactions to this movie. And actually maybe I shouldn't have been surprised because the person I saw it with, dear friend, in the middle of.

[A]

The movie, I know who that person is, by the way.

[B]

Okay, you know who it is.

[A]

I kind of not surprised.

[B]

Well, I was totally taken and absorbed and she started to get physically ill.

[A]

Because that would concern me.

[B]

The violence of the movie, some of the chaos of the movie, the sheer velocity of the movie. And she almost walked out. She was having that physical of a response. So I.

[A]

She sounds like some of the people in the comment. Oh, Manoha Thawkins review.

[B]

I was gonna say the commenters were really divided and I actually rounded up a few of my favorites and I thought we should read some of them just to get a sense of, like, just the violence of the response to this thing.

[A]

I'm fascinated by this. Go. Let's. I'll. You can read one.

[B]

I'll read an unhappy customer. Katie M. From North Carolina says, I just walked out of this movie. My God. This reviewer owes me $22 plus fines for an egregiously pretentious review.

[A]

Oh, not fining Manola Dargis.

[B]

What do we do? If you're even on the fence about it, don't do it. There are no redeeming qualities to this movie. Think of the most obnoxious person, you know, behaving at their very worst for two and a half straight hours and you're trapped in a room with them and can't leave. That is this movie. Except I could leave. Hallelujah. You want to look at these?

[A]

Uh, yeah. I mean, this is Julian B. From Massachusetts. What a. What if I would never say Wesley M. From Pennsylvania. That is an interesting choice. Like I'd like very elementary school. I'm from Pottstown. I'm from Worcester. Anyway, Julian B. From Massachusetts. As someone who enjoys films with some grit in them and thinks Timothee Chalamet is an incredible actor, I still walked out partway through a lot of exiting after an hour and a half of this over the top mishmash of violence not redeemed by its thoroughly unlikable main character and absurdly blood splattered digressions. All I wanted to do was go home and take a shower to wash off the unpleasantness. Julian B. I hope you got your shower. I get it. I understand why people might be leaving this movie. I am not a tremendous lover of the person who made it, Josh Safdie. And you know, he's part of this duo of filmmakers. He and his brother Benny. Uncut Gems famously is a Josh and Benny Safdie movie. They're New Yorkers. They make movies about New York City. The films are gritty, they're scuzzy. And in addition to that, the people at the center of these movies aren't people who, at least in this century, tend to get centered. Right.

[B]

Well, let's pause there a little bit and get into Marty as A character. Because I do think that a big part of what people are responding to is what some people consider a deeply unlikable character. A character who is selfish, striving out for himself. I mean, I think he has many other dimensions. So maybe let's just start by describing the main character of this film, Marty Mouser. Give me paint a picture.

[A]

I mean, he's one of those rat a tat talkers. Like he never shuts up. And the thing about Timothee Chalamet's performance is that I think he's doing so much talking that his mouth stays open for most of the movie.

[B]

It's true, he has this kind of like open mouthed stare and it's a bit unattractive. I mean, he's so appealing. But actually he manages to be a little bit unappealing physically in this movie too. But go on, go on about.

[A]

I mean, they've given him a unibrow and some kind of acne, right? Like that does not make a person unattractive as far as I'm concerned. And it's Timothee Chalamet who does nothing for me in that way. But like, I mean, just objectively, please. Anyway, I think what people are having a hard time with, with respect to Marty Mouser as a character is he apologizes for nothing. He doesn't have a lot of remorse, regret, chagrin. He is unabashed, he is shameless. And if he wants something, he is going to try to obtain it, whether it's money that he thinks he's owed by his boss at this shoe store, which is his first crime, at least the first one we see him commit, or making some movie star fall in love with him.

[B]

Well, I think maybe it's also worth saying that Marty Mauser is a Jewish man who is in some ways a striver, an immigrant striver, very familiar to us. He's a Lower east side guy. He is wanting success. He is willing to kind of play dirty. He's willing to use every tool at his disposal. He's resourceful, he's canny. He's a kind of like New York type, right? Yes, yes.

[A]

I mean, I'm just thinking about the ways in which his very specific Jewishness is interacting with his like classic Americanness of self madeness, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But in either scenario, what we're watching is a person at the bottom claw his way to the top, or attempt.

[B]

To claw his way to the top. But he figures this. I do think it's important to say that the movie does leave a breadcrumb trail about its Jewishness and Marty's Jewish aspiration. And it's important to say that Marty figures his own ascent and his will to triumph as a Jewish thing. You know, he says at one point he understands himself. He understands himself to be a Jewish striver. And at one point he says he's being interviewed by a British journalist at a, you know, a London ping pong tournament. And he says I'm Hitler's worst nightmare because I'm on top. I'm here and I'm on top. So he figures his and you know, to much to the disgust and kind of like horror of this British guy who's just a few years post Holocaust who's like, can people say this? And Marty says, I can say things like this, I'm Jewish. So his sort of outrageousness and his sense of his own ascent, he is figuring as Jewish.

[A]

Yes, yes. And I also think that this is a person who is deeply familiar to all people here in this country because these are the types of people who made America America. Right.

[B]

Well, so maybe you're saying like a resistance to Marty is a resistance to sort of like being back close to the ground again. Being back close to that kind of fast talking, hustling, trying to play every angle. You know, this guy is just shameless. He'll do whatever he wants to get what he wants. At the same time, for me, this is part of what I love about him, like his self belief, his silver tongued quality, his improvisatory quality, like his charm that he can kind of turn on or off at will, you know, that he can kind of like in one setting, I guess it's that like whether he's moving in a kind of like shoe store on the Lower east side or a two bit motel, or in this kind of buttoned up world of table tennis, he is always himself. Even though he's lying all the time. There's a kind of purity to him. And I love watching Marty sell. You know, he says at one point I could sell shoes to an amputee. And he can. And I actually feel like we should watch a moment from the movie where he's selling his friend's dad on one of his schemes, which is actually kind of a brilliant scheme. And you can kind of see the charm of Marty Mouser try to follow.

[A]

The white ball against the white. Almost impossible, right? I don't even see your eyes moving.

[B]

So he's trying to convince his friend's dad to pay for the production of Orange Ping Pong Balls.

[A]

If I'm wearing a white shirt. I'm wearing this. You can't see the ball because ping.

[B]

Pong balls are usually white. But wouldn't it be wearing a pink shirt? Who can see them?

[A]

Like, it's just not. It's like they've got a nun. It's not fair. Now imagine it with an orange ball, which no one's ever thought of. See, you're already following it way better. Look at his eyes. See how his eyes are looking? Yeah. You're looking more engaged now. So that's what we want to do right now. In the world of table tennis, you're obliged to wear black just so you can follow the white ball. Look at this. That's Ted Bailey. Who's that? That's the number one ranked player in the world right now. He's the British champion. I've already beat him, by the way. Now look at this. That's Jack Kramer, number one tennis player. What's the difference there? All white. He's an all white. It's beautiful. To me, that's luxury. To me, that's class. You could sell that. A custom ball like that is going to cost a lot of money. I mean, it's custom. It's original ball for an original guy.

[B]

It's Marty supreme. So I like, I love the pleasure of watching Marty sell. And I'm with him all the way, even though I know he's completely full of shit.

[A]

Yeah, of course. This guy is, like, working.

[B]

He's playing everybody and every angle at every moment.

[A]

And it turns out to have, like, incredibly grim consequences as the movie goes on.

[B]

And he is people losing limbs, fires starting, violence of all kinds, shootouts. I mean, the kind of violence and chaos follow this man in his wake. And it's not. He's sort of proximate to it. And he's like, it's the domino effect, but he's not participating in violence. It just happens around him in some way.

[A]

He is somehow. I don't know if it's right to say he's the head domino, but like, whatever. Whatever is happening, he is like a tile ahead of the like.

[B]

And somehow he moves through all of that with this preternatural grace.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And egotism, but grace and like, without consequences. And I wonder, as you said, like, is that part of what bothers people?

[A]

I don't. I don't know. I mean, I think that this is like, this is New York to me, and like, maybe New York's just not your city.

[B]

Well, can I ask a controversial question that feels kind of kind of related. Like, I wonder if some of the discomfort that people feel here also has to do with his Jewishness. And, like, I think this is what's underneath some of the. Like, I mean, and it's adjacent to this question of, like, maybe it's not your city. Right. Like. Like, I feel like, on the one hand, maybe a discomfort with, like, a guy who embodies, like, some of the ugliest stereotypes about Jews and, like, not. Not know. Not knowing what to do with that.

[A]

Specify that.

[B]

But. Well, actually, some people think the movie is, like, about anti Semitism, which I think we should. We should talk more about. But. But it's like, you know, it's like.

[A]

Well, it's definitely about anti Semitism. There are anti Semites in the movie.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes. And we'll talk about that. But, like, you know, is it kind of like not knowing what to do with someone who embodies these stereotypes? Also not liking that he's so good at the Hustle and sort of not liking yourself for not liking that? I mean, I just wonder if that is sort of bound up with this. And I also think that's something that the movie is really aware of, you know, its own Jewishness and this feeling that he embodies, like, some of the ugly stereotypes about Jewish people and like, he's enacting them and embodying them. The money grubbing, some money grubbing, the scheming, you know, the wanting to take over the world, the egotism. I mean, the sort of, like sexual rapaciousness. All of these, you know, very ugly, enduring stereotypes. And he's kind of. He's being them, you know, and kind of not knowing how to respond to that and kind of not knowing if we're supposed to be rooting for him or rooting against him, you know, And I think, like, the other sort of confusing aspect is, like, there's a touching aspect of Marty, or at least the world that he's situated in. Right. Like, for me, it's so redolent of, like, the world that my family came from, you know, a Lower east side of immigrant Jews trying to find their place in American life. You know, this is in 1952. It is seven years after the Holocaust, which is invoked many times in the movie and in some really moving ways. Right? Like, this is a person who's striving, has a kind of existential purpose, you know, and even as he's like a small time hustler, in some way he positions himself as like an existential hustler. And, like, for a Jewish person like me, I find it extremely moving at moments, you know? And I think, like, maybe some people don't know what to do with the mix of all that stuff.

[A]

Maybe. And I also think that. There might be a part of some people's reaction that is just unfamiliar with this kind of effrontery, not hiding its Jewishness. Right. Like, where the thing giving this guy the license to act this way is his Jewishness. His Jewishness. Right.

[B]

There is a scene in this movie that I really want to talk about with you because to me, it unlocked the movie, and it speaks so directly to this character's really complex relationship with his own Jewishness and the movie's even more complicated relationship with his Jewishness.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[B]

Could we spend some time, like, getting into that?

[A]

Yeah. All right, well, we should take a break, and when we come back, we will talk about, I would say, one of the wildest non Mel Brooks scenes invoking Jewish history ever filmed. We'll take a break, and when we come back, we'll talk about it.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Hey, I'm Joelle.

[B]

And I'm Juliet. We're from New York Times Games, and.

[A]

We'Re out here talking to people about games.

[B]

You like New York Times Games? Love them. Okay.

[A]

Love.

[B]

I play with my husband every night. I refuse to let him play it without me. What's your favorite game?

[A]

Go. Crossword. The crossword I do. My brother.

[B]

My favorite is the mini. We try and get it under 30 seconds.

[A]

You're pros.

[B]

I usually text my friend and ask her if she can beat me, but she never has.

[A]

At lunch, a bunch of people at work will all be doing the same game at the same time.

[B]

There's this little tab down here called Friends, so you can add your friend. That feels new to me.

[A]

It is. It's nice to have the social aspect.

[B]

Oh, my God. And you have all their times. That's crazy, right? You can look at spelling bee wordle Connections. Oh, my God. Amazing. Love that I have to get the app. Thank you so much for talking with us. I really appreciate it.

[A]

So much fun.

[B]

You can play all New York times [e-mail] games or on our app.

[A]

Play on. Okay, we're back. And now I think we should talk about your favorite scene in the movie. You have one?

[B]

Well, I have many. But this particular scene, which takes place about 30 minutes into the movie, so it's early in the movie, kind of unlock the whole thing. And what this scene is doing reorients the whole movie. And tells us how to read Marty.

[A]

Okay, So I know the scene, and essentially, if memory is serving me, Marty's gotten himself into the Ritz. He's having dinner with his partner in ping pong championship glory. His name's Bella Kletzky, and he's played by Geza Rorig. And I'll come back to the importance of the actor in a minute. But they're having dinner, and, you know, well, Marty. Marty's having one of his Marty moments. And he's like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna buy dinner for K. Stone, this actress that I want to sleep with. And, you know, I'm gonna buy the whole table that she's sitting at. You know, I'm gonna pay for the whole thing, including, you know, her husband is there, too, and her husband's a.

[B]

Rich man, Mr. Rockwell, the owner of this pen company.

[A]

And. And he's like, excuse me, did you just buy dinner for my entire table?

[B]

And Marty's like, oh, I just wanna thank you. And he's like, for what? And Marty's like, for your pens. Where would we be without pens? So Marty is like. He's running a little bit of a con, right? Like he wants to get into bed with this guy's beautiful shiksa wife. And he is sort of played again by Gwyneth Petro. He's messing with this guy. And Marty kind of ropes him, sort of seduces him into staying by kind of talking with him. They're both from New York, you know, this guy sort of warily amused by Marty. And then he looks.

[A]

This is Kevin o', Leary, by the way, of Shark Tank.

[B]

Of Shark Tank. Perfectly cast. And the Kevin o' Leary character notices that Bella has a number on his arm.

[A]

And it's not just noticing. It's like, oh, hey, you've got a. I see you've got a number on your arm. Like, it's.

[B]

Well, it's a little bit aggressive, right?

[A]

Like it's some other. Like it's any. Just any old tattoo I notice. I know what that's all about. I know what this Holocaust business is all about. And he.

[B]

And a tense moment ensues, or a very curious moment where this character of Bella kind of, in a pretty dignified way, says, well, yeah, I mean, I was in the camps. And then the Kevin o' Leary character says, you know, with great animus, my son died liberating you.

[A]

It's a little. It's cocky, though, right?

[B]

Well, he says it casually.

[A]

It's very jocular. The way he says it, his whole approach to this entire scene is a little bit like, it's a little. Some umbrage, but also some like one upsmanship.

[B]

Yeah. And Kevin o' Leary's character, he's an avatar of the WASP world, right? Like, this is someone who's completely at home at the Ritz. And Marty then kind of sees an opportunity here. I mean, Marty at one is kind of protecting his friends and saying, actually, the Soviets, you know, liberated his camp. He sort of has eyes on Kay, who's across the room. And he. And he says, you know, sort of as a means of distraction, why don't you tell him the story, Bella, from your time in the war? And then this character of Bella proceeds to tell a story about his time at Auschwitz where he was recognized by a guard because of his ping pong prowess. He was a famous table tennis player. And this guard recognizes his talent and kind of saves him by sending him off to a, you know, corner in the woods of the camp where he's alone. I mean, it's sort of like a classic story of a stroke of luck in the camps, right? And suddenly we flashback, as he starts to tell this story, to a scene from the Holocaust of a person in, you know, the pinstripe prison uniform. And he tells that, you know, he was in the woods. He was. He was taught to defuse bombs, or he was working alone in the woods. And one day he follows a honeybee to a hive, and he recognizes that he can smoke out the bees, take the honey, and he smears it all over his body. And. And you can hear the Kevin o' Leary character saying, why? And the Bella says in a voiceover, he still in a voiceover, so that I could go back to my bunk and nourish all my bunk mates. And you see this harrowing, extremely moving image of him taking off his uniform, you know, this sticky body being licked by ten men.

[A]

Many men. Yes, yes.

[B]

And for me, I mean, I wept. It was immediately sort of plunged me into the harrowing reality of what people endured in this horrible event of human history. But at the same time, you know, the movie, I mean, it works in so many complex ways. The movie is playing it for its profundity, but it's also all a ploy for Marty to distract this guy so that he can flirt with his wife. And it's using the Holocaust and the.

[A]

Story, you know, as a red herring.

[B]

As a red herring and also as a kind of one upmanship.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, it's sort of like, well, I'm gonna tell you my story of victimhood. It's a great story, you know, I don't know. So for me, it's of part for its profundity, and it's also blasphemously played for laughs, right?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of stuff happening in the sequence. First of all, the actor playing Kletzky, Gaza Roer, was in this very trying Holocaust movie called Son of Saul, came out in 2015. And the entire movie is sort of shot from the point of view of. Of gaze, Rourke's character. So it's extremely claustrophobic. You spend the entire running time of this movie trapped with these people in Auschwitz. And his character is another exceptional Jew who has been given the terrible, terrible, unthinkable job of leading his fellow prisoners to the gas chamber and then cleaning up after its use. And so casting that guy to play this guy to tell this story is another layer of, you know, kind of referential complexity. But then there is this other thing that I always struggle with with movies about the Holocaust, which is that every new film that is attempting to tell this story, the challenge is, how can I do a better job, put my.

[B]

Mark on the Holocaust, Right?

[A]

How can I do a better job than the other guys who came before me? How can I top Steven Spielberg? How can I top Roman Polanski?

[B]

What is the new how can I out terrible. The terrible and put my mark on it aesthetically and make it. Make it, fill it with emotion?

[A]

So there's kind of inherent moral reprehensibility.

[B]

To me, to representing it at all.

[A]

To doing it at all, because it becomes aesthetic sportsmanship and not the sort of moral consequences are secondary to the attempt to outmaneuver what has come before it. You know, Zone of Interest is another one of these movies that.

[B]

Which you can't help but admire. But that's part of it, right? And I mean, it's kind of brilliant because there is the meta. I mean, there's so many levels to what he's doing here. But I think what you're suggesting is that Josh Safdie knows this, and he's also, you know, it's just. It's a very short sequence where we see this imagery, and it is extremely harrowing and moving and also, I think, a bit erotic, which is something we can get to too. Right. But he's sort of doing the required historical reverence, and at the same time, he's blaspheming it all at once.

[A]

All at once. All at once. You know, I Watched that entire sequence with my jaw dropped. Because, like, think about the flex of turning a thing that many directors build their whole careers trying to depict, right? Like the pinnacle of. Of several filmmakers filmmaking lives, at least for. For a minute, is. Is trying to figure out how to tell the story, tell a story of the Holocaust. This guy's like, yeah, I'll give it to you in 10 seconds. I'll do it in 10 seconds. And that itself is a kind of reprehensible. The flex just like, yeah, I did it. I showed it to you. But also then to say, I don't want this character and these people to be trapped in the pity associated with that event. Like, I want this character to live and be judged. I want you to walk out, walk away from him, hate him, because he's this individual guy who sucks.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Not like, hold your sucking, because he comes from this, from these people.

[B]

Right, exactly.

[A]

And that is a 21st century choice. That is a 2025 to me choice. Right?

[B]

And to me, like a deeply semitophilic choice.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Because. Huh.

[A]

Say more about that.

[B]

Because Marty gets to like, whatever he is, he's not confined by Jewishness, right? Like, he's deeply Jewish. And. And we can read him that way. And he's asked to be. He's asking us to read him that way. He's telling us that he reads himself that way. But he doesn't have to be representative. He. He can just be himself. And there's no other Marty supreme.

[A]

Right?

[B]

But for me, I mean, I'm trying to think, like, as we're dissecting the utter lastness of this, like, I'm trying to figure out why I was also so moved by it and why I also feel like it is the skeleton key to this movie. Because I think, like, there still is something irreducibly and undeniably true about the humanity of the story. Right. That Bella tells and the act that he. Of course, of course, of course. The act that he performed and being asked to kind of see and recognize that. And this is also the reason why you do make movies about these horrible human events, because to face them and to kind of understand the extremity of them and that this too is part of humanity and part of our history. Like, all of that you're confronted with in this moment, in addition to all of Marty's, you know, like, horrendous venality and ability to do, like, pull any kind of bullshit, you know, and like, I love it that the two things can function together. And I also think that, like, this scene does clue us in to, you know, some kind of, like, elemental insistence on life and survival that flows into Marty's veins through his peoplehood. And so you sort of understand his striving. Like, it's all painted with this scene for me, and it's just moving. Right. So in addition to being kind of disgusted by Marty, I'm also deeply moved by his incredible life force and vitality. And for me, it kind of like casts the rest of the movie with that kind of intensity and vitality.

[A]

I mean, I feel like what you're talking about, I mean, there's only really one word for it. This movie is shameless. Right. The movie has no shame. And I don't know, it's like that shamelessness, you know, corresponds to like a whole, you know, constellation of shamelessnesses.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

All right, I have an idea. We should take a break. I would love to think through as inspired by this movie, like, what shamelessness entails. Like, what is. Like what is it? What is.

[B]

What is this essential quality of shamelessness?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

What does it do in the world?

[A]

Yeah. Well, take a break. Break. And then we'll come back and think about that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay, we're back. And while we were gone, we came up with a name for what we're about to do.

[B]

Mm. Laying on.

[A]

It's called the Shame Game.

[B]

Or I thought it was called the hall of Shame.

[A]

The hall of Shame. That's how little shame we have. It's got two names. So I guess how it's gonna work is you're gonna just like, give me somebody who, who is an epitome of shamelessness and we'll talk about it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I'll give you one, and then you'll give me one, and then I'll give you one back.

[B]

Okay. And we can decide, like, what shamelessness is. Cause I think it's a complicated thing. Okay. First one, I think it's pretty classic. Another Jewish character, Mickey Sabbath, from the novel Sabbath Theatre by Philip Roth. One of my all time favorite characters.

[A]

It's the best Philip Roth novel.

[B]

It's the best Philip Roth novel. So this character is despicable. Mickey Sabbath is a puppeteer in his 60s who has recently been fired from his small town university job because of an affair he had with a student. He is a womanizer. He is a complete narcissist. He is kind of cruel to his vulnerable, alcoholic wife. He is randy. He is self. Regarding. He is randy as hell.

[A]

I mean, horny.

[B]

Horny. Kind of just, you know, A despicable man. And yet kind of like Marty, there is an undertow of something more profound. There is grief. He is grieving his lover. And actually the love relationship in that book between Mickey Sabbath and Dranka, his partner, an age appropriate partner, is one of the great love stories. And the sex that they have is actually transcendent in this book. It's transcendent. And the book is, like, while incredible and while on the one hand he is, like, embodies all the worst attitudes towards sex and the most disgusting, you know, instrumental attitudes towards sex, he also, like, really helps us to understand what sex can be. So this is a character who contains multitudes. He is a shameless man who somehow is the vehicle for really beautiful thinking about love, about sex, about spirituality, about grief. Sasha hall of shame. I nominate Mickey Sabbath.

[A]

Well, he's in. There's. I mean, I don't know. I mean, he's like, at the front door when you enter the. When you come in, he's in.

[B]

Tell me, tell me who you've been thinking about.

[A]

Grace Jones in Boomerang.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Plays a character. I haven't seen it, named Strawn.

[B]

J. I'm not a fool. I know what the people want. They want to be shocked and they want to be stabbed. Stand, and they want to be jolted.

[A]

Now, first of all, I should say Boomerang is a movie full of shameless people. Martin Lawrence, Eddie Murphy himself.

[B]

So why does she take the cake?

[A]

I don't know. Because this woman, first of all, it's Grace Jones. But also because in the world of this movie, which is really about, like a kind of black decorum and a black propriety, she is really telling the black respectability, politicians among us. And in the world of this movie to like, you know, go jump in a lake, like, I'm here. And y' all gonna have to deal with this because I love my vulgar self. And. And if you don't like it, the problem is you and your uptight bougie etiquette.

[B]

No man can turn down this pussy.

[A]

You stop.

[B]

I don't know any man that can refuse this.

[A]

Stop saying pussy. People are eating in here. This woman does not care. But in her not caring, she clearly cares about having no shame. What do you got?

[B]

Okay, my next person. I totally stand by it. But someone who. Well, someone who just spit it out. Someone who rose to my consciousness from, like, you know, like cultural archives circa 2002, 2003. An era where the kind of stunt that this person pulls felt fresh. Oh, I think I. I'm I'm thinking about Ali Jean.

[A]

Booyah. Kasha. I was gonna say Sacha Baron Cohen.

[B]

I'm thinking about Sacha Baron Cohen, but I'm thinking particularly about the char of Ali G. Inviting straight laced politicians onto his show and the, you know, commitment to the bit.

[A]

Wagwan Everton Iri I is here with my main man, his name being Newt Gingrich.

[B]

And Imwood, in some cases, like pretty destructive forces in American life who are responsible for. Who are themselves shameless. Well, this is the point that his shamelessness was a kind of like, die in the veins of their shamelessness.

[A]

Oh, that's a great way to explain.

[B]

And how people responded. People like Pat Buchanan or James Baker, you know, I mean, the way that they respond to him also reveals something about themselves.

[A]

Listen up.

[B]

Me name be Buchanan. Me knows nuff tings bout politics. Get involved, mock daddies. Y' all better realize that nothing be.

[A]

A better way to get your kicks.

[B]

West side I.

[A]

You. You described it perfectly with the. With the die.

[B]

Okay, so he's. So he's in. Oh, I forgot to say. Grace Jones is in, too.

[A]

Clearly. This is the. I mean, these aren't being nominated. I'm bringing two people and installing them in the hall of Fame.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

Okay. I'm gonna give you some titles to some things, and you're gonna be like, what? But I'm just like, hold on. Planet Claire. Planet Claire has pink air. Rock Lobster we were at the beach Everybody had matching towels Dance this mess around. Butterbean. Yeah, everybody likes butterbeans Love Shaq the B52s have no shade.

[B]

A faded sign.

[A]

At the side of the road that says 15 miles to the Mercedes. The reason that I am going with these people is that they don't sound like anybody else in the history of music. And part of what you are hearing in their uniqueness is a very particular kind of shamelessness, which is to sound like a thing without having to declare what the thing is. Right? This is a band that just sounds gay to me. Right? And they know it. Fred Schneider is just like, yeah, hello, People. Clearly. And yet he's never sung a song about a man on a B52's record. What he's doing is expressing that gay energy through the most absurd possible channels. And he's accompanied, you know, vocally by these two women who have every vocal trick in the book to match his shamelessness. These women on Rock Lobster are doing every fish in the ocean There comes a dogfish. I love Patti LaBelle, but you know what?

[B]

She has Never done any fish in the ocean.

[A]

A narwhal. So some of what we're talking about with shamelessness is like breaking rules. But in order to break the rules, you have to know what the rules are.

[B]

Oh, yeah. You have to absorb them and then, like, be really willing to discard them.

[A]

This band, I just think the B52s are a great example of this because there's a version of this band that sucks. Right. The thing that makes them great is that they have applied their shamelessness to their. To their mastery of the form.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the thing that allows them to have no shame is that they also have dignity.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes. Which I think brings us so beautifully back to Marty Supreme.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

You know, despite the shamelessness or because of the shame or as part of the shamelessness, there is this kind of inherent dignity. You know, shamelessness is. It's very aware of the conventions that it is pouring itself all over.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

That it's gasolining.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[B]

And some of the absurdity and sometimes outright villainy of those conventions.

[A]

Yes. It knows the history. You know, the thing about Marty is, like, he knows the history. He is both reacting against and trying to advance forward. Right. That is sort of the power of the character in a lot of ways is, you know, he knows what he's doing and he can't help himself but to be barreling forward at all times while dragging this history with him and insisting that it come.

[B]

Beautifully put.

[A]

Sasha. Thanks for doing this.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

This was really fun. And I'll talk.

[B]

I want to keep populating this gallery of shame because we're going to keep thinking about this.

[A]

It can happen. It can happen monthly because we're living in shamelessness times. So, like, shamelessness with dignity is worth celebrating. Anyway, that's our show. Hall of Shame. Hall of Shame. Hall of Shame. This episode of Cannonball was produced by Elissa Dudley, Janelle Anderson, John White and Austin Mitchell. It was edited by Lisa Tobin. Daniel Ramirez engineered this episode. It was recorded by Matty Masiello, Kyle Grandillo and Nick Pittman. Dan Powell and Diane Wong did the original music. Our theme music, as always, is by Justin Ellington. Bobby Doherty took the picture for our show art. Our video team is Brooke Minters and Felice Leon. This episode was filmed by Lauren Pruitt and Luke Piotrowski was edited by Jeremy Rocklin and Dave her. We're on YouTube, but you knew that. Thanks for listening. Next week getting all up in your pits. Talk to you later.