Cannonball with Wesley Morris
Episode: Dwayne ‘the Rock’ Johnson Is Finally Going There
Date: October 30, 2025

Overview

In this episode, critic Wesley Morris speaks with writer Sam Anderson about the cultural phenomenon that is Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson. Prompted by Johnson's first "serious" acting role in the Safdie brothers' film, The Smashing Machine, and Anderson’s recent in-depth New York Times Magazine profile, the two dive into Johnson’s mega-stardom, humanity, and the tension between pain, performance, and the persona he’s spent decades crafting. Their discussion explores not only Johnson’s wrestling and movie persona, but the vulnerabilities and existential questions that underlie his success.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Profile the Rock? (02:24–05:32)

• Profile Selection: Sam Anderson is known for profiling eccentric, “quirky” figures, not superstars. The idea to write about Johnson came from his editor, and Anderson admits he felt both a draw and resistance to covering such a ubiquitous figure.

  “It'd be like trying to, I don't know, write a poem about the sun or something. Like...you gotta address the thing at the center of the solar system.” – Sam Anderson (03:32)

• The New Movie: What tipped the scales was Johnson’s collaboration with director Benny Safdie on The Smashing Machine. Anderson saw a chance to witness the blending of Johnson’s super-fame with the Safdies’ signature mix of reality and fiction.

The Wrestling Roots: Charisma and Performance (06:15–11:30)

• Arrival in Wrestling: Wesley discusses The Rock’s breakout in wrestling’s “Attitude Era” among other titans, pointing out that his humor, charisma, and “chill” uniquely set him apart.

  “Of all those people, it's Dwayne Johnson, the Rock, who is the most...he's the most charismatic person and he's the person who in the mix of those other guys can start trouble.” – Wesley Morris (09:04)

• The Peoples' Elbow and Eyebrow: Classic wrestling moments illustrate his star power and the theatricality that allowed him to transition to Hollywood.

  “He became famous for his eyebrow. They called it the people's eyebrow at some point to match his signature move, which was the people's elbow.” – Wesley Morris (09:14)

• Expanding Wrestling as Theater: Johnson’s comedy and skits in wrestling foreshadowed his entertainment career—with memorable, absurd setups (e.g., fighting with a bag of popcorn).

Fame, Solitude, and Identity (11:30–16:34)

• Hyper-fame and Loneliness: Anderson describes the logistical and existential challenges of Johnson’s fame, sharing the deeply human portrait of a superstar who can’t walk down the street.

  “At a certain point when he switched over into film from professional wrestling, he became so famous that he can't go out into the world anymore. He can't walk down the street, he can't go to the grocery store. He's too distinctive.” – Sam Anderson (13:33)

• Family & Solitude: The conversation delves into whether Johnson’s isolation is loneliness or sought-after solitude. Anderson asserts it’s both: Johnson is magnetic in crowds but fundamentally solitary, shaped by a childhood of moving schools and never establishing roots.

The Private Encounter: Understanding the Real Dwayne (17:00–21:17)

• One-on-One at the Ranch: Anderson is surprised by how private the encounter is—just him, The Rock, and a Brahma bull named Soul Bully. The meeting, free from handlers, quickly becomes personal and deep.
• Shared Curiosity: A turning point comes when Anderson asks about Johnson’s wrestling technique, specifically his admiration for Razor Ramon’s punch. Johnson joyfully demonstrates—reminding both of the difference between genuine and performative expertise.

  “He just popped up. He just flew off of that couch and was like, all right, difference between a good punch and a bad punch.” – Sam Anderson (18:23)

Pain as Medium—Personal and Professional (21:17–26:27)

• Artist of Pain: Anderson shares how his preparation led him to see Johnson as an “artist of pain”—someone who embodies, inflicts, and processes pain, both physically and emotionally.

  “In watching his wrestling career, in reading about his life story, in watching his film career as an action star, and then this new movie...one way to think about this guy's career is he is really an artist of pain in many forms. That's kind of his medium.” – Sam Anderson (22:03)

• Deepest Pain: When asked about his worst pain, Johnson unflinchingly names the psychological wounds from his tumultuous relationship with his father. This admission shapes the tone of their entire day together.

  “He just launched into the story about his dad, about being a kid and getting really rejected by his dad, who he had a very...Complicated is the word that he likes to use relationship with.” – Sam Anderson (24:56)

Sincerity vs. Performance—What’s Real? (26:27–32:48)

• Is It All Campaigning?: Wesley pushes on the inherent skepticism: Is Johnson simply being promotional with Anderson because he’s on an Oscar campaign for The Smashing Machine?
• Genuine Connection: Anderson admits he can’t always know, but is moved by the extended, sincere post-interview communication from Johnson—voice memos, pictures, and conversations. He concludes:

  “If he is faking, he could have stopped so long ago and had the effect that he wanted on you. He did great. He could have stopped with me so long ago. If he's faking, then he is like a manipulative, emotional ninja.” – Sam Anderson (31:35)

• The Safdie Question: Both consider whether authenticity and performance always intermingle—especially for people in entertainment—echoing Safdie’s exploration of artifice and reality.

Highlighted Dwayne Johnson Moments (35:03–42:33)

Favorite Movie Roles

• Fast Five (35:37–38:22)
  Anderson chooses Johnson’s debut in Fast Five as a charismatic, by-the-book antagonist—a role that lets him play with (but not solely rely on) his persona.

  “He's the cop who believes in justice. He's just there to get his guy. He doesn't care what your excuses are.” – Sam Anderson (36:32)

• Moana (38:23–40:06)
  Both agree Johnson’s voice work as Maui is peak Rock energy: affable, larger-than-life, but still with a gentle, comedic core.

  “I think of him in his films as almost like a human cartoon...So to see him as an actual cartoon, I don't know, there's something like that doubles the energy of it.” – Sam Anderson (39:33)

Critique of Typecasting

• Morris laments Hollywood’s typecasting of Johnson as a jungle/demolition man, calling for more roles that tap into his cultural identity (as in Moana) or lesser-explored emotional registers.

The Smashing Machine: Dwayne’s Transformational Performance (42:34–51:42)

• Role Overview: Johnson plays Mark Kerr, a real-life MMA fighter whose imposing physique conceals a deeply gentle, emotionally tormented man.
• Transformation: The film employs makeup/prosthetics to place Johnson in the “uncanny valley” between himself and Kerr, accentuating the tension between persona and reality.

  “Heavily, probably a top five most famous face in the world...your first reaction as a viewer is like, what am I looking at?” – Sam Anderson (45:55)

• Acting Depth: Anderson applauds Johnson’s tender, uncertain presence, noting “his voice is like a pair of hands cupping a baby bird,” starkly different from most of his superstar roles.
• Emotional Resonance: The film authentically explores both violence and vulnerability, showing Johnson’s character’s gentleness in the midst of immense physicality.
• Real-life Parallels: Anderson recounts Mark Kerr’s own realization: his “secret power is his ability to be emotional,” and the movie and Johnson’s performance honor this insight. Anderson shares a touching anecdote from the Venice Film Festival about Kerr’s emotional reaction to the film and Johnson’s empathetic support.

Final Reflection: The Theater of Pain (51:42–52:17)

• Professional Wrestling as Vulnerability: Morris notes the unique genre fusion in wrestling—where “tough people perform vulnerability”—and sees Johnson as its perfect exemplar.

  “I just feel like Dwayne Johnson is an exemplar of the theater (of pain).” – Wesley Morris (52:15)

Notable Quotes

• "It’d be like trying to write a poem about the sun."
  — Sam Anderson (03:32)
• “I think that he...came to us in the mid-90s as a kid, but it was instantly clear that he had something that very few...communicates with the public has."
  — Wesley Morris (07:34)
• "He has this unstoppable energy. When we were together...I really did get a sense of him...as almost shy and introspective."
  — Sam Anderson (40:11)
• "If he is faking, then he is like a manipulative, emotional ninja."
  — Sam Anderson (31:35)
• “I just feel like Dwayne Johnson is an exemplar of the theater [of pain].”
  — Wesley Morris (52:15)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Profile setup and The Rock’s allure: 02:24–05:32
• Breakdown of wrestling persona & charisma: 06:15–11:30
• On fame, loneliness, and identity: 11:30–16:34
• Private encounter and bonding over wrestling technique: 17:00–21:17
• How pain defines Johnson’s life & career: 21:17–26:27
• Authenticity vs. performance—“the Safdie question”: 26:27–32:48
• Favorite Johnson roles (Fast Five, Moana): 35:03–42:33
• The Smashing Machine and new emotional territory: 42:34–51:42
• Wrestling as vulnerability, Johnson as exemplar: 51:42–52:17

Memorable Moments

• Anderson describing the giddiness of getting a “personal” demonstration of classic wrestling moves from The Rock in his living room (18:23).
• Johnson’s sincere post-interview communication with Anderson—voice memos and candid bull-feeding videos—deepening the ambiguity between promotion and real connection (31:35).
• The gentle way Johnson sets down a plate before breaking a door in The Smashing Machine—a small physical comedy detail that illustrates his layered performance (48:26).

Tone & Takeaways

Wesley Morris and Sam Anderson keep the conversation friendly, reflective, and skeptical—but ultimately admiring of Dwayne Johnson’s unique position in pop culture and what The Smashing Machine reveals about him. They blend playful banter, critical analysis, and heartfelt observation to offer an intimate glimpse behind the invulnerable facade of one of the world’s most recognizable celebrities.

For the full experience, listen to the episode.