Is 'South Park' Trump-Proof?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Cannonball with Wesley Morris

Episode: Is 'South Park' Trump-Proof?
Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Wesley Morris
Guest: Wyatt Cenac (writer, comedian, former South Park contributor)

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Overview

In this episode, Wesley Morris sits down with comedian and writer Wyatt Cenac to dissect the enduring cultural phenomenon of South Park and examine how it has managed to remain biting, relevant, and, unusually, un-cancelable even as American comedy enters choppier waters under the second Trump administration. Together, they trace their personal histories with the show, explore its unique position in satire, and delve into the latest season’s take on a Trump-dominated America. The conversation oscillates between personal, analytical, and big-picture reflections on comedy and cultural power.

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Main Themes and Key Discussion Points

1. The Evolution and Challenge of Comedy in Dangerous Times (00:47–03:04)

• Wesley opens by framing comedy as "in a pickle" — artists face the risk of losing jobs for speaking out, with the exception of South Park surviving, and even thriving, in the Trump era. He notes the show's latest season is more direct than ever, especially given recent media consolidation and high-profile cancellations.
• Notable Quote:
  • "Doing the job can cost you your job. With one notable exception. The Jesters over at South Park." — Wesley (01:24)

2. Personal Encounters with South Park: Outrage, Blasphemy, and Animation Snobbery (03:04–06:06)

• Wesley recalls his first South Park experience: the infamous "Jesus vs. Santa" special, feeling more appalled than amused by its irreverence.
• Wyatt relates as an "animation snob" who appreciated the show's look and technique but noticed its style mirrored the edgy, ironic racism, sexism, and homophobia common in 1990s comedy clubs.
• Memorable Exchange:
  • "I was kind of afraid of it." — Wesley (04:33)
  • "I was an animation snob as a child." — Wyatt (05:52)

3. The Line Between Edgy and Research-Driven Satire (07:02–09:33)

• Discussion of episodes like the Scientology and Mormon stories, where South Park exposes forbidden topics on mainstream TV with serious, if not journalistic, research behind the jokes.
• Notable Quote:
  • "You're doing a well researched prank on some level." — Wyatt (09:32)

4. Appreciating South Park as Artistry: The Movie as Musical Satire (09:33–15:01)

• Both hosts marvel at South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut as a "great movie musical," with high praise for its structural rigor and musicality. Wesley places it in his “top five greatest American movie musicals.”
• They detail the film’s risqué satire, particularly in depicting Satan as a gay character in a relationship with Saddam Hussein—a choice that managed to offend both conservative Christians and queer advocates.
• Memorable Quote:
  • "They’re not just two young assholes who just enjoy, like, jumping on people's nerves. They're artists." — Wesley (10:41)

5. South Park and the ‘Offense Debate’: Criticism, Generational Tension, and Representation (16:12–26:10)

• Wesley shares a story of sparring with Roger Ebert, who saw the film as “mean-spirited and so negative.”
• Both discuss the role of provocation, offensive jokes, and the generational divide in reactions to the show. Wyatt points out that characters like Token (the Black kid) or those with disabilities may start as cringy, but the show's long run humanizes them, making them beloved even as they challenge stereotypes.
• Notable Quotes:
  • "But I think the thing that is sort of powerful about the South Park experience is that I kind of like being offended." — Wesley (22:04)

6. The ‘We Go After Everyone’ Defense and Comedy's Institutional Platform (24:56–26:37)

• The hosts debate whether South Park’s “we make fun of everyone” stance really holds up, concluding much of the show’s impunity comes from its privileged place on mainstream networks with powerful backing.
• Notable Quote:
  • "It's not simply that they're getting away with something. It's that they have a network behind them." — Wyatt (25:34)

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[Break — Ads and Non-Content Omitted]

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7. South Park in the Trump Era: Institutional Power vs. Authoritarianism (29:17–35:22)

• The conversation shifts to the new season, which targets the Trump administration with renewed vigor. Wesley notes: "this season...they have chosen to focus almost exclusively on the Trump administration and the effect...on all kinds of Americans, with South Park basically as the stand-in for America." (30:17)
• Both analyze how the show uses its "platform" and institutional weight to lampoon power. Referring to the animated Trump’s depiction (with a real photo-collaged face and “a tiny penis”), Wesley points out how the show literalizes metaphors more unapologetically than ever.
• Notable Quotes:
  • "All the subtext is now the text.” — Wesley (35:22)
  • “They’re both brands at this point...it just feels like it’s harder to get rid of South Park because it is this thing that we’ve all lived with for so long.” — Wyatt (38:38)

8. Satirical Power and Brand Security: Why South Park (and Trump) Are ‘Un-cancelable’ (38:38–41:17)

• Wyatt asserts that both South Park and Trump have achieved a kind of brand-based immunity from cancellation.
• Wesley also observes: “It had to be South Park...It’s an institution. It's a cultural edifice. Also, weirdly, it's now billionaires taking on a billionaire.” (40:29)

9. Poignancy and Empathy: When Satire Hits the Heart (41:17–45:14)

• Episode two triggers an emotional response: Mr. Mackey, fired as a school counselor due to government cutbacks, joins ICE and is surprisingly good at it—a tragic arc made powerful because viewers have known him for decades.
• Wyatt notes this is only possible because of the show’s longevity and mass appeal: “You have people on the right, on the left, in the middle who all find that character funny...” (42:58)
• Notable Moment:
  • “I almost cried watching that moment...where Mr. Mackey goes from elementary school counselor to ICE agent.” — Wesley (42:46)

10. Satire’s Shifting Role: From Offense to Reflection (45:14–50:20)

• Wesley and Wyatt analyze how the newest season reflects on subversiveness itself: even Cartman is at a loss, finding that anti-woke provocations no longer carry shock value in Trump’s America.
• They muse on how South Park is uniquely suited to serve as a mirror—and even an antidote—to the broader culture’s slide into cruelty-for-sport.
• Notable Exchange:
  • “Woke is dead, Butters. It’s gone. Everyone hates the Jews. Everyone’s fine with using gay slurs.” — Cartman excerpt described by hosts (46:38)

11. The Legacy and Responsibility of Long-Running Comedy (49:01–50:36)

• Wyatt asks if perhaps the very thing Roger Ebert once criticized the show for—its lack of responsibility—is now being remedied via sharply targeted, empathetic satire.
• Notable Quote:
  • "Maybe Roger Ebert would be looking at this season of South Park and saying, thumbs up.” — Wyatt (50:36)

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Doing the job can cost you your job. With one notable exception. The Jesters over at South Park.” — Wesley (01:24)
• “You’re doing a well researched prank on some level.” — Wyatt (09:32)
• “They’re not just two young assholes who just enjoy, like, jumping on people’s nerves. They’re artists.” — Wesley (10:41)
• “All the subtext is now the text.” — Wesley (35:22)
• “They’re both brands at this point...It just feels like it’s harder to get rid of South Park because it is this thing that we’ve all lived with for so long.” — Wyatt (38:38)
• “I almost cried watching that moment where Mr. Mackey goes from elementary school counselor to ICE agent.” — Wesley (42:46)
• “Maybe Roger Ebert would be looking at this season of South Park and saying, thumbs up.” — Wyatt (50:36)

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Highlights & Noteworthy Moments

• Wesley’s top five musicals includes South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut (14:29).
• Both hosts reflect on how, for all its offensiveness, South Park’s consistency and “equal-opportunity ridicule” have unexpectedly generated empathy and understanding—sometimes for its most problematic characters.
• The discussion repeatedly circles back to the question of responsibility: does a satirical institution like South Park bear more, less, or a different kind of cultural duty now than it did in the 1990s?
• The unique power of “institutions” (whether TV shows or political personas) to push boundaries and survive backlash in a way individuals (stand-up comedians, late-night hosts) cannot.

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Conclusion

Wesley Morris and Wyatt Cenac provide a lively, sharp, often personal conversation about South Park’s place in American satire, its uncanny ability to “Trump-proof” itself, and the evolving ethics of comedy. As the show enters its 28th year and takes on Trump more directly than anyone else on television, Cannonball’s hosts leave listeners wondering whether it now provides the kind of cultural reckoning its earliest critics demanded.

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For more rich conversations about the culture that moves us, subscribe to Cannonball with Wesley Morris. New episodes drop Thursdays.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Yes.

[A]

Behave.

[B]

All right.

[A]

I'm Wesley Morris and this is Cannonball. This week. Oh, my God, they canceled. Jimmy, comedy is in a pickle right now. It's a pickle that's as old as comedy itself. I mean, how do you make fun of, say, a king who could also cut off your head? It used to be that in a monarchy there was one exception made for the Jester, but no such exception seems to exist right now. I had been thinking about this before abc via Disney, briefly suspended production on the Jimmy Kimmel Show. He's back now, but before that, Stephen Colbert's show was canceled and is still canceled by cbs. You can come to your own conclusions about why Stephen Colbert lost his show. But in comedy right now, doing the job can cost you your job. With one notable exception. The Jesters over at South Park. This latest season kicked off with the show's creators, Trey Parker and Matt Stone, practically begging for the guillotine. The very first episode gave us a president with a tiny penis and the town of south park itself facing a lawsuit from this fictional Trump. This was essentially hours after it was announced that Trey Parker and Matt Stone had closed a $1.5 billion deal with Paramount. Too late, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

Now, the show's midway through its current season. Episode 5 came out last night. And if anything, the jokes have only gotten more withering. Nobody else with ratings even half as good is with mocking the administration like this. Who else is even trying? Which, you know, it begs the question, how is this show still on tv? That's what I'm asking my pal, Wyatt Snack. Wyatt's a writer, actor, and comedian who's worked as the, I would say, level headed correspondent on the Daily show and was the host of the wonderful HBO show Wyatt's and X problem areas. He's also done some work for South Park. Welcome to Cannonball, Wyatt.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

Okay, so I'm gonna start by explaining to you how this show came into my life.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

I was in college, and there was some guy standing around a computer watching something and cracking up. And I was like, hey, what are you guys doing? This is what's so funny. And somebody made room for me to watch. And it was what I call the South Park Christmas Special or Jesus versus Santa Claus.

[B]

Holy shit, it's Jesus. What are you doing in South Park? Jesus.

[A]

And I don't think I laughed. I think I was more appalled than I was amused. And I think what appalled me about it and what I was sort of mystified by what they found funny was, was the blasphemy of it.

[B]

Dude, don't say pig fucker in front of Jesus.

[A]

The kind of indiscriminate lack of sympathy for any particular party.

[B]

We had that stupid song. Yeah, Hanukkah sucks, don't you?

[A]

And I think I felt like some position that I understood about myself. Whatever values I had were being challenged in some way, even though I didn't.

[B]

Know by this show or by your friends?

[A]

Well, by my friends watching this show, my. Via the show.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I don't know, it was kind of destabilizing. And I remember being kind of afraid of it.

[B]

Yeah. Now I'm curious. What were Wesley's values?

[A]

Just be nice to people. Oh, just be nice. I mean, it's like. It's funny. Why? Because I grew up watching the meanest comedians. Right. Like, I watched Andrew Dice Clay. I watched Sam Kinison. I've seen eddie Murphy's raw 7,000 times. But there was something about the appropriation of this sort of juvenilia, this alleged child's format that also contributed to my. I guess I was taking the bait. How did it come into your life? Do you remember the first time you saw it?

[B]

I feel like it came out. You said 97 was the first time.

[A]

The first season of the show was 1997.

[B]

So I was in college and I enjoyed it. Yeah, I enjoyed South Park. I didn't watch it all the time. I remember when I was in middle school, I took animation classes at a local community college.

[A]

Oh, did you?

[B]

I did. And that was what we did. We did that construction paper thing. And so, style wise, I appreciated the technical thing of what they were doing. But I have always been fascinated by animation. And so it wasn't Chuck Jones or Tex Avery or anything like that.

[A]

The great animators of, you know, the mid 20th century.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you had taste.

[B]

I was an animation snob as a child. I was a child animation snob.

[A]

So I Mean, what did you think when you first started watching it? Does what I'm saying to you make sense about kind of being uncomfortable?

[B]

It does, but I think I also came at it from a different place where especially once I graduated college, I was then living in Los Angeles. And at that point in time, in comedy and in all the comedy spaces I was in, one of the big things was ironic racism, ironic sexism, ironic homophobia. And I feel like south park was doing that on television and in some ways didn't feel that different than the ecosystem I was in, where, you know, there were a lot of white comedians who felt very comfortable saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I, like. I came up in a time where everybody had a rape joke. It was.

[A]

That was part. I mean, again, as a comedy watcher, like. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. But what felt unique and what felt fascinating about what they were doing was that they were doing it on television. And especially when I think about something like the Scientology episode.

[A]

Dummy brainwashed alien souls, E meters and thetan levels.

[B]

That was one of those episodes where in la, in hushed rooms, everyone had a story of an awkward run in with a Scientologist.

[A]

But this is a scam on a global scale. Do you fucking get me now?

[B]

Yeah. And so I think that. Or even the Mormon episode. Wait, Mormons actually know this story, and they still believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?

[A]

Well, sure. The story proves it, doesn't it? No, it proves he did make it all up.

[B]

Are you blind? They were things that people around me were talking about or that, you know, we were all talking about, but no one was talking about it on television. And so there was a sort of courageousness of, okay, you can. People will do this stuff on stage, but they're doing it on television and potentially running the risk of losing advertisers or something.

[A]

I mean, they're saying the thing that you and I would just see over brunch.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But they're putting it on Comedy Central. And at the time, you know, we're Talking about, like, 3 million people watching this every week, sometimes more than that. And one of the things that felt kind of dangerous about it to me was that a lot of these episodes, like the Scientology one that you're talking about, it felt like they were. They were kind of picking up on all these brunch conversations, like this. This almost kind of gossip about people and the world, and they were putting that on tv.

[B]

Yeah. But I would say with some of the stuff, there was a level of research. I think that's what Also seemed fascinating about what they were doing. It did feel like there was some aspect of maybe not the level of journalistic rigor that. That a reporter has, but there was. Okay, you know, even just flashing a chiron, like in the Scientology episode, they're putting up chirons that say, this is straight from this text. This is what these people believe. And so that, to me felt different in this way of. Okay, you're not just using conjecture here. You actually are. You're doing a well researched prank on some level.

[A]

Yeah. And so despite how not good I frequently felt at the end of some of these episodes, I learned to appreciate and discover and experience delight in the kind of secret seriousness with which they were undertaking these episodes. And I loved that. But I had a moment where I kind of fell in love with this show as a movie. And it was around, like, was it 1999? South Park? Bigger, Longer and uncut comes out.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I go and I see it, and I didn't know what I was getting myself into. I thought, you know, I'm watching South park, the show but a movie. But the movie turned out to be a musical.

[B]

There's a bunch of birds in the sky.

[A]

And I think, like, watching that, I was just like, okay, These guys, Trey Parker and Matt Stone, are not just two young assholes who just enjoy, like, jumping on people's nerves. They're artists.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the challenge for them, and this is the rigor at work in this movie that's evident in the show. But to take that and stretch it to like a 90 minute format that is beholden to the rules of a genre, it just kind of blew my mind. Because the songs, it's a perfect Sunday.

[B]

Morning In my quiet little mountain town.

[A]

Each song works as a song. It's melodic, it's funny, it's following some sort of musical traditional format. And I don't know, the thing that was scaring me about it was less frightening because it was speaking a language that I, as a moviegoer understood.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That. I don't know, just deepened my relationship with the show.

[B]

Can I have 5 tickets to tears and Fill the Asses of Fire, please? Now? Well, I think that artistry thing that you're talking about, if you even just watching the show, that musical artistry comes through in so many different episodes.

[A]

I could see it subsequently. Yes.

[B]

Like, even again, thinking about that Mormon episode, they're doing a musical about Joseph Smith, and they start off and they're singing about him, and then they go, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum. Joseph Smith was called a prophet. Dum dum dum dum, dummy. And it just sounds like the dum dum dums that people do in a song. But over time, the dum dum dum now starts to sound dumb, dumb, dumb. And then gets to a point where they talk about one person being skeptical of Joseph Smith. And in that coral moment, they go, lucy Harris. Smart, smart, smart, smart, smart, smart, smart, smart, smart, smart, smart, smart, smart. And it was a 20 minute buildup to that.

[A]

This is the rigor at work in their structural process.

[B]

And in a similar way, I think in the movie, it felt like, oh, the movie is taking all of the criticism that they and the show have received and now putting this into this musical thing where Terrence and Philip kind of become Matt and Trey.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Dude, that movie was fucking sweet. You bet your fucking ass it was. Fuck, dude, I want to be just.

[A]

Like Terrence and Phillip. Hey, wait a minute. Where's your guardian? Terrence and Phillip being the fictional characters of this children's show, right?

[B]

That it's. Yeah, Terrence and Philip, they.

[A]

That all the kids in south park watch.

[B]

Yeah. And they made a movie called Asses of Fire. And all the kids go. And then they learn all of these horrible curse words.

[A]

We must stop dirty language from getting to our.

[B]

We must go fight the source of it. And then the adults get mad and they want to both kill Terrence and Philip and invade Canada.

[A]

So that then leads to one of the great musical numbers. By the way, Wyatt, I don't think you know this about me, but I think this movie is, in addition to being a great movie, I think it's one of the great movie musicals, period. I'd put it in, like, at least the top 10.

[B]

Okay. I was gonna say, is it your top three?

[A]

I would go higher. It might even top five.

[B]

I mean, that's not higher than top five. Is higher than top three.

[A]

No, I was starting at 10, but.

[B]

Then I said top three. And what's clear is you're listening to me.

[A]

I am listening. I started at Ted.

[B]

You all have seen this. I've been assaulted. This is evidence.

[A]

I would get to. I would say top five. I would say I would not be afraid to put this movie in my top five of the great, great American musicals.

[B]

What else is in your top five? I mean, you know, and you don't have to do all the other four.

[A]

But, I mean, I don't know. West side Story. It's not hard. That's an easy one. Okay, but wait, I want to stay in the world of this movie for a second. Because one of the chief scandals in the movie in South Bigger, Longer and Uncut, is the idea that Satan. Satan, you know, from the Bible, is.

[B]

I was thinking of a different Satan, but okay, now I know which one. Yep. Okay.

[A]

Is a gay man in a frustrating relationship with Saddam Hussein.

[B]

Well, sometimes I think you don't have.

[A]

Any respect for me.

[B]

Hey, come here, guy. Who's my cream puff? I am that bad, baby.

[A]

Satan is a big muscle man who's got, like, even bigger feelings.

[B]

Yeah. He hits the gym. I'm assuming it's not all natural. I'm assuming he's using some supplements.

[A]

Is Satan on creatine? Is that what you're saying? Low hgh.

[B]

This was testosterone. No, I mean, it's. Look, I'm just saying I don't know if he's getting the same supplements that RFK is getting, but they're beaux on t. And this is where a disclaimer. White snacks, views do not represent.

[A]

Yes, we'll stamp that asap. But I remember at the time, what I loved about this movie personally was that it was one of those occasions where I was figuring out how to be a critic. And you will hate to hear this, but, like, what I really loved doing was trying to figure out how jokes worked and, like, why what was making me laugh was funny.

[B]

I don't hate that.

[A]

Okay. Cause some comedians, you know, like, unpacking a joke. This not really how it works, but I liked doing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the thing that worked so beautifully to me about the Satan character is everybody's upset.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Glad's upset. The conservative Christians are upset at the same thing, right?

[B]

Yes. And it becomes a. How you look at it, because there's a version of it where. Yeah. You can have someone who looks at it and says, oh, no, that is just purely taking the piss out of conservative Christians and their idea that all gay people are gonna burn in hell. So obviously, then Satan is gonna be the biggest, gayest character you can find. Or you can say, well, wait a minute, though. There aren't a lot of representations of gay people on television. And so the idea that you're making Satan gay feels offensive.

[A]

And we haven't gotten to make Satan gay yet. We need to make regular people gay before we get to Satan. Y' all done skipped a lot of steps. South Park.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And then I don't know if you know this about me, but I went on Gene Siskel dies in 1999, and Roger Ebert wanted, you know, a Rotisserie of people to come on and, like, fill Gene's slot while Roger figured out whether he wanted to. I mean, Gene couldn't be replaced, but whether he wanted to do the show with another person. And I was one of the guest hosts on the show.

[B]

I didn't know that. This week, Will Smith and Kevin Klein blaze through the Wild, Wild west.

[A]

And rocker Riot Cooter heads a tour of Cuban musicians in the Buena Vista Social Club.

[B]

And America and Canada Go to War and South Park. Bigger, Longer and Uncut.

[A]

And one of my movies was South. Bigger, Longer and Uncut.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yes. And I didn't know when I got my list of movies, you don't know what Roger is gonna think. You know, I mean, Gene and Roger were professionals. They would do the show. They almost never knew what the other one was gonna think or know about the movie before they recorded the episodes. That's where all the good tension was. Yeah, I get there. We go through our movies, and I was convinced he was gonna like it. Yeah, I thought he was gonna think this was the funniest, like most subversively funny works of humanity and satire that he'd ever seen. It has some laughs in it, and it is slashingly fearless satire.

[B]

That's true. But it's also so mean.

[A]

And he hated it, but I think.

[B]

So mean spirited and so negative. And you feel as you sit in the audience, even when you're laughing, you're not proud of what you're laughing at.

[A]

He really didn't like it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I remember sitting there thinking, oh, my God, one of my heroes is sitting across from me not liking a movie that I'm about to tell him I love. It pushes right in the middle of this debate about at this particular moment, it's really timely about the First Amendment and the media and culture's ability to sell the First Amendment. What I was trying to say was, like, look at what this movie is doing. It knows how people are gonna react to it. And it's created an entire show inside the movie that is anticipating this reaction. So it's commenting on the very debate Roger and I were sitting there having. And I, I. If I'm remembering, I really got off on loving this movie as much as I did. I was very nervous. But I was also like, I kind of enjoyed being a cool little asshole and saying to Ebert, you know, maybe. Maybe to freak out about this movie is to prove their point.

[B]

Well. Cause I was curious if he ever saw where you were coming from at any point.

[A]

No, he did not like he was really worried about the cesspool of human empathy.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I think he didn't see what we're talking about with Satan and Saddam Hussein and the reaction to the Satan character. That was not. He was really, really concerned about the influence this movie was gonna have on people.

[B]

But what about all the racial slurs? What about all the Jewish and black.

[A]

It's in the Conte, but it's in the context of this farce in which.

[B]

In which even the.

[A]

Sit here. We can sit here intellectually and talk.

[B]

About how it's in the context of a farce, but millions of people who.

[A]

Go to the movies just learn that.

[B]

It'S okay to make fun of Jews. I feel like that's a little bit of the Mr. Rogers thoughts on television, where television has the power to inform as well as entertain. But it feels weird to say, well, specifically, these two guys who were never doing that, they should start doing that now.

[A]

Right. I remember thinking, like, why is that their job?

[B]

But I think it should be somebody's job. It's just maybe not in the same way that I think, you know, I would not expect McDonald's to make steak frites, and I would not ask McDonald's to make steak frites. But steak frites are delicious, and they should exist, and someone should make steak frites is just not McDonald's.

[A]

But, I mean, I feel like. I don't know, I think that there was a generational tension between me and, you know, one of my heroes and this movie. He's worried that it doesn't respect the impressionability of the young people who'd be going to see it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think the thing that is sort of powerful about the south park experience is that I kind of like being offended.

[B]

Sure, yeah. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. I mean, again, I think we. You know, it was a time where I feel like people both wanted to offend and wanted to be offended.

[A]

It kind of makes me wonder whether or not this show has ever offended you, whether south park has offended you.

[B]

Off the top of my head, I don't know if there's an episode that I could point to. I feel like I remember when I learned about the introduction of certain characters kind of cringing a little bit and wondering, oh, you're making fun of a character with disabilities, or the introduction of Token or something like that. Then I think by the time I even did engage with those characters, those characters had become so ingrained in the show, and they were humanized in a way where I don't even. I. I Didn't see their introduction, but now they've become characters that people are like. They're defensive of these characters. They're like, we love these characters. So if that. If that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I think, like, Token is a great example of a joke that you kind of need to be watching the show to get.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, Chef, same thing. The thing that they're commenting on is the absence of black people in the world of what I would describe as, like, white cultural properties.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And what would it mean in this white town? And then, you know, therefore, this white show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Black person in it, like, what would their job be?

[B]

Right.

[A]

How would they function in a. In a school environment?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What are the jokes that we can tell about this person that the character itself or, you know, in the show, like, himself, can also get in on?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I guess that is the line. Right. Like, can I. Like, is the thing that is bothering me, is the joke cheap or is it trying to get somewhere? Then I'm asking, like, well, what is being impersonated here? Is it the fact of the identity or the idea of what the identity represents?

[B]

Well, that goes back to Satan, and it goes back to that idea of are they mocking Satan for being gay, or are they mocking people who believe if you're gay, you go to hell?

[A]

But did you. I mean, it just seemed to me like the thing that south park could frequently hide behind is we go after everybody.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, there's no particular person or group that we're interested in protecting. We'll laugh at anybody.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We'll satirize anybody. Did that hold water with you?

[B]

I don't know that I saw it that way. I think I maybe saw it more from the standpoint of they had an.

[A]

Institution supporting them in that meaning, like, ViacomComedy Central.

[B]

Yeah. And so it felt like in a world where everyone is trying to be edgy, whether it's at a sketch comedy theater or at a comedy club on a stage, all of these people are trying to push the envelope. Push the envelope with the hope that they could get a movie, they could get a TV show that. And so in that way, it felt like, oh, they're getting. It's not simply that they're getting away with something. It's that they have a network behind them.

[A]

Yeah. This is. So I think we should take a break.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And when we come back, I mean, I really want to talk about. This is really smart, because you've. They've been given a platform. They've been given a platform at what is now one of the, like, biggest media conglomerates in the country. Comedy Central, Viacom, Paramount, Skydance, gonna make.

[B]

For a really long business card.

[A]

I think they're just gonna call it's Guy Dance now, which is crazy. But, you know, they've got a deal worth more than a billion dollars to make this show. And I think that they are now uniquely positioned to take that platform to offend practice their, you know, satire for all or against all comedy. And in it feels meaningful that the show seems to be newly interesting to people as it takes on the second Trump administration. And so when we come back, I just want to talk about this current season of the show, which is its 27th.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. We'll take a break. I'll be right back.

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[A]

Okay, we're back.

[B]

We are Wyatt Tanak, Wesley Morris.

[A]

We're talking about South Park.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And before we took the break, you had made a really great point about one of the things that kind of. I don't know if insulates is quite right, but it certainly fortifies the way the satire might work on south park, which is basically, you know, they have this, I mean, the only sort of modern term for it really is platform to practice this comedy. And I think at this point, you know, it's been 28 years of this show, they have achieved and built for themselves, you know, a mighty edifice from within which they can practice all kinds of jokes and take aim at all kinds of people and problems and trends. But this season, you know, they've got now this billion dollar deal to keep making the show, and they have chosen to focus almost exclusively on the Trump administration and the effect of the administration and this climate on all kind of Americans, with South park basically as the stand in for America.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And I have found these episodes to be simultaneously very funny, scathing, and on at least two occasions, I was moved. And I'm just curious about how they're striking you so far.

[B]

I mean, on one level, it strikes me as the thing that they've always been doing. I think there is this sort of idea and comedy of speaking truth to power. And I think Marin, in Marc Maron, in his most recent standup special, sort of makes a funny point that so many of the comedians turned podcasters these days are speaking power to truth. And that has never felt like that was the intention in Matt and Trey's work. No, it was a good line by Marin. And so in that way, it doesn't feel any different. It's always felt to me that the show has been doing that on some level. Even when it feels like the targets might be minorities or people with disabilities or gay people, it's never always felt like that's the target. The target has often seemed like it's a particular type of thinking that often is. It often is embodied by a certain type of white gatekeeper.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so the idea that their focus is on the Trump administration right now, who an administration that it seems like, has tried to make itself the gatekeeper of everything in this country. It stands to reason that a lot of these episodes are going to be focused on those gatekeepers, because, yeah, Trump and his administration are dominating the headlines and their actions are impacting so many people.

[A]

We'll just start with, like, there's episode one. Like, the plot here, basically, is that everybody finds out that this man has been elected. He's having some effect on the town, and there's a cut to the White House and it's Donald Trump.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Mr. President, sir. The president who has been animated very differently.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This is like collage work where they've taken actual photos of Donald Trump.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And have animated those and put them on what I would describe as a conventional South Park Body.

[B]

Yes. Which is what they did with Saddam in.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes.

[B]

Bigger, longer, and uncut. Hey, relax, guy. I'm just yarn.

[A]

Y' all take a rest. The people of Canada will not be devalued like this. And so there is this moral equivalency, this sort of moral equivalency happening or immoral equivalency between Donald Trump in the world of this season of south park and the Saddam Hussein in the bigger, longer, uncut movie. You know, Saddam Hussein in a toxic relationship with Satan. Or Satan. Excuse me, In a toxic relationship with Saddam Hussein.

[B]

It was a totally fine relationship for Saddam Hussein.

[A]

He should be so lucky now that relationship has been extended. Well, this is Satan's new boyfriend. And so Donald Trump is in the White House bedroom, not with Melania, but Satan.

[B]

Hey, Satan, I don't want to right now.

[A]

What? And he's just, like, cuddling up, and he's like, how can you res. How can you resist this? Aw, come on, Satan. You know you can't make this bus. And he pulls the sheet back, and it's just like, you know, this little thimble that's attached to between his legs. And Satan's like, oh, God, it's so tiny.

[B]

Right? I can't even see anything, it's so small.

[A]

Hey, I'll fucking sue you. God.

[B]

Fuck you. Ah, come on, Satan. Don't be like that.

[A]

You know, like, I think the thing that I love about these episodes, and this has basically been true of the show the whole time, as you've said, but I think that there's, like, a blatancy here that is kind of unforgiving in some way. They're taking all the signifiers and literalizing them. Right. Like the tie, the long, red tie is no longer a metaphor for anything. They're just giving him a tiny dig.

[B]

Right.

[A]

All the subtext is now the text. Right, Right. And I. I don't know. I just really. That part feels wild to me.

[B]

Well, and I wonder how much of that is also driven, at least on their side, by a mentality of dare us. Like, you've dared us to do something. Again, thinking about other seasons and other episodes, the Scientology episode was one that, in my understanding of it, Penn Jillette had a show called Bullshit where he wanted to do an episode talking about all of the things about Scientology that are suspect and strange, and his network said, you can't do that. And I think there's always been a part of the ethos of this show that. But whether it is them being challenged or seeing Someone get challenged in a way where they feel like, if you're telling me Penn Jillette can't talk about Scientologists, then it, let's do it. Let's see if. Let's. Let's go there and see what happens. And I think, again, that goes back to that idea of when you've got a stable home, as it seems as though they do with Comedy Central, you feel a little more comfortable knowing that the network has your back, that you can take swings like that. They're not going to try to talk you out of it. And maybe they will, but they've gotten accustomed to you saying, we're going to do this.

[A]

And just to put a finer point on what they are doing in this first episode, I mean, after aggressively baiting Trump with this tiny penis stuff, that stuff that is way beyond the sort of thing that's resulted in Trump pressuring TV networks, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, hosts being removed from their seats and all that stuff, they basically turn this premise of this episode into Trump suing the town of South Park. This town, the town then becomes this stand in for all the pressure that Trump's putting on these other institutions almost weekly, real institutions. Pressure that theoretically could have come for Paramount after an episode like this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then there's this moment where they bring back an old south park friend. The show's Jesus Christ character. It's Jesus. And he's basically trying to tell the south park residents, hey, y', all, just give it up. You know, he's talking through his teeth.

[B]

You guys saw what happened to cbs. Yeah. Well, guess who owns cbs?

[A]

Paramount.

[B]

You really want to end up the cold bear? You guys gotta stop being stupid.

[A]

Settle with this guy. Give him what he wants. Are you seeing how all these other guys are ending up? Do you want to end up like that?

[B]

Right.

[A]

So the show is acknowledging this threat in the most brazen possible way. And I don't know, they're acting with the same kind of impunity as their target, right?

[B]

Yes. But I also think the thing that is interesting about them and the target is that they're both brands at this point. Like, south park has been around, as you said, for 28 years. There are kids who are 12 who know south park, and their parents grew up with south park, and now these kids are growing up with it. And I think there's a sort of thing that when you have lasted that long where you are a brand. Trump as himself is a brand that he's been around long enough. And so I think when there is A certain comfort with the brand. It also provides a certain amount of security that is. And I don't know if this is gonna make sense, but it just feels like it's harder to get rid of south park because it is this thing that we've all lived with for so long. It's different than a standup comedian or a late night host who.

[A]

Absolutely, yes, I hear what you're saying.

[B]

Like, if that show had been on for 27 years, I think it's a harder thing to say, we're gonna get rid of this institution. South park has become an institution. It has become something that I think people are so accustomed to and used to that as an audience member, I think you want to see the brand of south park, the institution that is south park, go up against this other institutionalized figure in Donald Trump.

[A]

I think then it's interesting to see the way in which the show is deploying that power. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, of course, it had to be south park for the very reasons you're talking about. Right. Like it's an institution.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a cultural edifice. Also, weirdly, it's now billionaires taking on a billionaire.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think the show is operating on a number of levels here. You know, one of those levels is just a pure satire, savage satire of Trump and the people around him and the people who sort of blindly support him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But. But another sort of brilliant thing they're doing. And I'm not really seeing this happen very many other places. And to me, I find it much more poignant. And it's essentially the effect of the administration's policies and the climate of the country on the residents of South Park.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't know. By the time you get to that second episode, there's like, I don't. I had a pang of tragedy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As Mr. Mackey is disputed. Mr. Mackey, I need you to pack your stuff. You've been fired, bud. What government's doing? Well, he's fired from his job as a counselor, a job he has had the entire time we've known him.

[B]

Right. Yes.

[A]

I've worked here for 26 years. We appreciate your service to this school, but the government's cutting back on unnecessary expenses. What's more important than a school school counselor and is, like, told, well, you know, ICE is recruiting.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you get this recruitment, recruitment montage that comes with, like, a video that is essentially turning regular people into ICE.

[B]

Agents, Immigration and Customs Enforcement. If you need a job, it's a job to happen.

[A]

And as it turns out. Mr. Mackey is really good at being an ICE agent. I just need to ask you some questions, okay?

[B]

Make sure you're legal. How did you get into heaven?

[A]

Even, like, part of what makes him good in some ways is that he's kind of conscientious about it. Enough.

[B]

Look, I'm really sorry about this, but I'm just trying to make my nut.

[A]

Like, he knows that he shouldn't be doing this, and yet at every point, Kristi Noem, our Homeland Security director, is rewarding him. Did a good job in there, soldier.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Thank you, Captain. I don't know. It's really like, I almost cried watching that moment where Mr. Mackey goes from elementary school counselor to ICE agent.

[B]

Well, and I think that, again, speaks to that idea of the institution of it, that you've seen this character for over two decades. And again, I think the reach of the show and where they are able to do this is that this show has fans. There are Mr. Mackie fans across the aisle. And so being able to take that character and do something like this with that character, you have people on the right, on the left, in the middle who all find that character funny, who all know mk, and they. And they have a connection to that character in a way that feels different than, you know, there are people, whether it's someone like Hasan Piker is critical of the Trump administration on a daily basis, but his audience may not have as broad a swath as south park, which has had 27 years to amass an audience that runs the gamut, whether it's political views, whether it's demographically. And so that connection that exists hits a little different because, again, thinking about the institutions, Trump as an institution also, prior to his political life, hit the spectrum of people. You know, he was getting dropped in name, dropped in rap songs. He was showing up because he was forcing his way into movies. But he was in Home Alone.

[A]

He was in there.

[B]

He was on the Apprentice. And the Apprentice seemed apolitical at the time. And so I think what's interesting is, like, the overlap, the Venn diagram of people who potentially voted for Trump and also happen to watch South Park. They're in a Venn diagram as well as people who didn't vote for Trump and watch South Park. And it's one of those rare things in this day and age that you can point to as a program that seems to have existed long enough where so many people watch it and so.

[A]

Many people sort of crossant in the world of it, too.

[B]

Yeah. And see a character like Mr. Mackie and then can have a sympathy for his situation that maybe hits different than if it were just like a sketch where I'm just presenting a character you've never met before doing this.

[A]

Well, I mean, what's interesting though, is that the show is not neutral on this. Right. Like in that first episode, the genius of the show is the way in which it is deploying this history, which over time really does accrue to a kind of wisdom. Right. And the wisdom here is how to use what was previously offensive about a character like Eric Cartman and to turn him into, I mean, in the world of a show, a kind of victim. Right, Right. This is the most outspoken, the most offensive, the most unapologetic person the show has to offer, at least in the elementary school part of it. And his first heartbreak is to discover that it's no longer subversive or radical to be anti. Everything.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, to be anti. What we're gonna say now is anti. Woke. I think woke is dead. Woke is dead.

[B]

It's dead, Butters.

[A]

It's gone.

[B]

Everyone hates the Jews. Everyone's fine with using gay slurs.

[A]

Oh, well, that's not good. No, it's terrible. Cause now I don't know what I'm supposed to do. Like, they've canceled npr. What in his mind is the greatest show on the radio. They canceled my favorite show.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Npr. What's npr? What's npr? The funniest show ever where all the.

[B]

Lesbians and Jews complain about stuff. The fucking president had it taken off the air.

[A]

And I think that one of the things that makes South Park a really interesting antidote to the administration is that it really, it is speaking their language in a way that I don't even think they quite understand.

[B]

Right. I know very little about Pete Hegseth as a human being, but, you know.

[A]

He watched South Park.

[B]

I bet he watches south park. You know, J.D. vance seems like a guy. I can't believe this show watches South Park. The Trump brothers. You don't think those guys watch South Park?

[A]

The Trump kids? Yeah. Eric and Don Jr.

[B]

The Trump Bros.

[A]

I think these are people who grew up, at least in the administration. I would say these are probably people. I think you're right. They watch the show and there's a way in which, like, there's a simultaneous, like, wow, this show that I maybe grew up loving knows who I am.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And I now have to laugh at it because to take umbrage would seem uncool.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And nobody else in my experience in these eight years, nine years, has really, really figured that out and how to deploy the crudest television, not the nicest, shiniest, most expensive tv, but South Park.

[B]

Right.

[A]

A show that has only looked one way for 30 years in the same way that this guy has looked one way the entire time we've known him, looks more like himself as the years pass. This show, to me, looks more like itself as the years pass. I don't know what I'm giving you, Wyatt, but I'm just thinking about what it means for TV to fight tv.

[B]

Sure. Yeah. Well, I think maybe this goes back a little bit to what you were talking about when you were with Roger Ebert and Roger Ebert's Big Fear and his concern with the south park movie was that they didn't understand the responsibility that a movie has and that the audience is perhaps more impressionable than they are giving credit to. And in this moment now, we see that that impressionable audience has been affected and impacted by a president and an administration who sold them on an idea that he was going to let them say the words that they weren't allowed to say anymore and that canceling was a thing and that woke was a thing, and that these were real things that he was going to go to war against, when in fact all they were were diversity, equity and inclusion and humanity. But that Terrance and Philip is Trump. And what you're seeing now is the thing that perhaps Roger Ebert.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That responsibility he wanted Matt and Trey to have, Maybe they're doing it now. Maybe Roger Ebert would be looking at this season of south park and saying, thumbs up.

[A]

Wyatt, Wesley, thanks for coming on the show.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

I appreciate it.

[B]

I appreciate it. Thank you.

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That's Vitamix.com this episode of Cannonball was produced by Elissa Dudley, John White, Austin Mitchell, and Janelle Anderson. It was edited by Lisa Tobin. This episode was engineered by Katie McMurran. It was recorded by Matty Masiello, Kyle Grandillo, and Nick Pittman. We got original music by Dan Powell and Diane Wong. And Diane, thank you for the South Parkified music today. And as always, our theme music is by Justin Ellington. Our video team is Brooke Minters and Felice Leon. This episode was filmed by Alfredo Chiarapa and Lauren Pruitt. It was edited by Amy Marino, Mark Zemel, and Jamie Heffitz. We're on YouTube, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

We always are on YouTube. Watch and subscribe. We'll be back next week. And you know, there's this guy named Paul Thomas Anderson. He's still making movies, and they're good. Thanks for listening, everybody.

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Job of multiple appliances and it actually has a sleekness to it that I like. Essential by design.

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Built to last.

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That's Vitamix.com.