Cannonball with Wesley Morris:

Episode: Nikole Hannah-Jones Knows Why History Feels Dangerous
Host: Wesley Morris
Guest: Nikole Hannah-Jones
Date: September 18, 2025
Produced by The New York Times

Main Theme & Purpose

In this deeply personal and incisive episode, Wesley Morris sits down with Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and creator of the 1619 Project, Nikole Hannah-Jones, for a candid discussion about America's struggle over its historical narrative. Together, they trace the emotional, cultural, and political journey of the 1619 Project, reflect on the fleeting promise of the 2020 "reckoning," and grapple with the strong backlash—legal, social, and cultural—against efforts to tell a more inclusive, honest U.S. history. The episode explores why confronting history feels so dangerous—and necessary—right now.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Birth and Purpose of the 1619 Project

• Brainstorming the Project: Nikole recalls the 2019 New York Times session that birthed the Project, originally called "The 400" ([06:28]), describing it as a "colossal nerd fest" ([06:28]).
  • Nikole: "All of these scholars whose work I had read through the years, I brought them into this space at the Times...and we just had a big brainstorming session." ([06:47])
  • The aim wasn’t just to document the past, but to connect present-day American realities, like traffic or democracy, to the legacy of slavery.
• "We wanted to show that almost anything that you could see in our society, I could trace back to slavery in some way. And I have played that as a parlor game. And I actually can trace anything." – Nikole ([07:38])

The Project's Reception: Shock, Uplift, and Immediate Backlash

• Rolling Release and Public Reaction: Upon publication, demand was immense and enthusiastic—issues sold out, people hosted parties, classrooms decorated with material ([12:28]).
  • Nikole: "People were excitedly trying to find it and, like, traveling out of town to grab a copy... For a print publication about slavery. And people wanted to engage with it." ([13:20])
• The timing was key: “End of Trump’s first term…people wanted to really try to grapple with, you know, how did the country that elects Obama twice elect Donald Trump?” ([15:04])
• The "brief renaissance" of Black creative culture (Black Panther, Atlanta, etc.) provided fertile ground, but, “damn, it was brief.” ([15:57])

Backlash and Culture Wars

• Pushback from Historians and Politicians: Initial conservative outrage was expected, but a second wave came from certain historians arguing America’s problem was class, not race ([16:13]-[17:19]).
• Nikole: “Of course, it no longer treated our founding as divine and our founders as demigods, but actually says slavery was a big deal... I think it’s provocative, but also true.” ([17:38])
• The project’s popularity—especially because it was in The New York Times and accessible to the public—was threatening to gatekeepers ([18:19]-[19:08]).
• Legislative Attacks and Political Targeting:
  • Tom Cotton and Mitch McConnell introduce the "Saving American History Act" to ban classroom teaching of the 1619 Project ([24:46]).
  • Trump establishes the 1776 Commission to promote ‘patriotic education’ ([25:42]).
  • Wesley: “There is a real fear of what happens when people find out. It's the education that scares people.” ([35:37])
• Nikole reflects: “You realize that you have produced something that has shaken, like, power itself. And... I had to understand... it wasn’t mine anymore.” ([27:18])

The Reckoning—and its Limits

• Summer of 2020 and the George Floyd protests—1619 provided a new vocabulary to understand structural racism and mobilized both Black and new white supporters ([21:24]-[22:22]).
  • “That was the first time that a majority of white Americans supported Black Lives Matter. They had never seen a majority of them supporting.” – Nikole ([32:21])
  • Symbolic victories abounded, but material change was thin: “Most of what happened in 2020 was performative, right?” – Nikole ([35:24])
• As backlash grows, the country shifts from performative solidarity to “structural resistance” ([35:25]-[35:37]).

Living in a Historical “Dissent” Moment

• Nikole compares herself to Thurgood Marshall, whose historic Supreme Court gains were later dismantled by colleagues. She sees her own writing as “dissent,” a record for a future society ([58:11]-[60:46]).
  • “Dissents are writing for a future society that will take that dissent, that will be ready for that dissent and enact it... I feel a mandate to bear witness, to not allow us, when we look back 20, 30 years from now, to pretend we didn’t know, to pretend that we weren’t actively making choices.” – Nikole ([58:11]-[60:25])
• She notes tangible evidence of this rollback: “Now we're at a place where college campuses... can't even invite me... or others who are doing similar work. You cannot even have that discussion on campus.” ([60:46])

The Dangers of Sanitized History

• Free speech debates are weaponized to suppress Black history: “This is not happening because college students are using their freedom of speech to protest ... but because the most powerful people in the world have dictated and made it so.” ([62:26])
• Wesley: “Because what [history] does is it tricks you into looking for these compares and contrasts…might be more useful...to just be present.” ([63:27])

What is History Good For Now?

• Nikole: “It helps us understand what we are capable of... and it also can show us a roadmap out.” ([63:47]-[64:03])
  • She relates the quick progress and even quicker reversal for Black Americans post-Civil War, as a warning for today ([64:31]-[67:08]).
  • The period post-reconstruction—a deal between northern elites and white southerners—erased Black progress for generations ([67:08]-[68:02]).

The Split Screen: Black Visibility and Looming Regression

• Wesley reflects on the paradox: Black artists and history are hyper-visible in museums and institutions right now, but this may be the last remnant of a brief window ([69:13]-[69:51]).
  • Nikole: “Exhibits are planned years in advance. So let's see what we see next year.” ([69:22])
  • “I feel a deep sadness that... it's going to be some years before we see that again. Like that's the last little remnant of this brief moment in time, that reconstruction of veiled moment...before the destruction.” ([69:57])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We didn't want to tell the story of the legacy of slavery that everyone knew. We wanted to show that almost anything that you could see in our society, I could trace back to slavery in some way.” – Nikole Hannah-Jones ([07:38])
• “It wasn't just an assignment for me... like, this work was deeply personal. We know everything that went into it, how much care was taken, and so I took it personally.” – Nikole ([26:11])
• “Dissents are writing for a future society... I feel a mandate to bear witness, to not allow us, when we look back 20 years from now, 30 years from now, to pretend we didn't know.” – Nikole ([58:24])
• “[2020] was this period where people were putting together an understanding of their America and these systems in a way that we hadn't seen before... But damn, it was brief.” – Nikole ([32:21], [15:57])
• “Whiteness is its own wage. Right. So I might not have anything else, but I have this.” – Nikole ([44:48])
• “I would not write that essay today.” – Nikole, reflecting on her early optimism about America’s potential ([48:33])
• “Most of what happened in 2020 was performative, right? There was no reparations... We got symbolic victories and now we're being met with structural resistance.” – Nikole ([35:24])
• “There is a real fear of what happens when people find out. It's the education that scares people.” – Wesley ([35:37])
• “Now we are in this moment where everything has been placed back in this rightful place... it's all the quiet people, who aren't signaling anything... They’re just quiet because really, they agree.” – Nikole ([53:10])

Important Timestamps

• 00:40 – Wesley opens the conversation, recalling the birth of the 1619 Project.
• 06:24–07:55 – Nikole discusses the original vision and brainstorming session for the Project.
• 12:28–15:57 – Nikole shares the public's emotional and immediate reaction to the Project's release and how the cultural moment shaped its impact.
• 16:08–19:24 – Backlash begins from conservative figures and historians, provoking national debate.
• 22:22–26:09 – The reckoning of summer 2020 and the public’s deep engagement with U.S. racial history, contrasted with historic anxieties about demographic change.
• 24:46 – Political backlash becomes legislative, with bills introduced to block 1619 in schools.
• 27:18–30:25 – Nikole processes personal attacks and learns to let the work speak for itself.
• 32:21–35:37 – The legacy of 2020: symbolic victories and return to structural resistance.
• 36:00–38:49 – The danger of suppressing honest history and free inquiry.
• 39:06–46:42 – Discussion of race, class, and the stubborn power of “whiteness as a wage.”
• 48:23–54:15 – Nikole reflects on the optimism in her 1619 Project introduction and compares her current role to being in permanent dissent mode.
• 56:36–62:26 – The cultural freeze: DEI being rendered unspeakable, self-censorship, and the chilling effect on academic and public life.
• 63:27–70:59 – On the use of history: warning from the rollback of Reconstruction, sadness at fleeting Black cultural visibility.
• 69:22, 69:57 – Both discuss the significance of the present moment and worry about what comes next.

Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, deeply personal, at times sardonic, at times elegiac. Nikole is both measured and passionate, reflecting the exhaustion and clarity that comes from being both at the center and target of a national culture war. Wesley brings both empathy and critical curiosity, drawing out the deeper stakes for history, democracy, and possibility in America. The episode is both a reckoning and a warning, a reflection and an act of bearing witness.

For Listeners Who Haven't Heard the Episode

This episode is an essential conversation about the stakes in telling honest American history—and who has the power to tell it. It traces the arc from hope to backlash, explains why the current moment is so fraught, and warns of the dangers of historical repression. It’s a vital listen for anyone trying to understand America's ongoing battle with its past, present, and future.