Cannonball with Wesley Morris

Episode: Our Last Chance to Talk ‘Gatsby’
Date: December 25, 2025
Host: Wesley Morris (The New York Times)
Guests: Min Jin Lee (novelist), Gilbert Cruz (New York Times Book Review editor)

Episode Overview

This Centennial episode looks back on F. Scott Fitzgerald’s The Great Gatsby, exploring why its spell endures 100 years after publication. Wesley Morris welcomes guests Min Jin Lee and Gilbert Cruz to dissect their lifelong relationships with the novel, question its placement in the American canon, and ponder why the book is so obsessively reimagined in culture.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Relationships with Gatsby

Timestamp: 02:18-13:43

• Wesley recounts being asked to write an introduction for a new edition, reflecting on reading Gatsby in three very different stages of life.

  • “I have read this book at least three times in three different phases of my life. Why did I do that?” (01:58, Wesley)

• Min Jin Lee read Gatsby as a young Korean immigrant, influenced by “cool people” and librarians.

• Gilbert Cruz describes falling for its depiction of New York youth and the “intoxicating” allure of the city and self-invention, only later realizing the novel’s depth was about “hope and disappointment.”

• All agree rereading has yielded new revelations each time, depending on their stage in life.

  Quote:
  “It is a book that is about time, or at least a certain time in one’s life. And therefore, it has meant something different to me every time that I’ve read it.”
  — Gilbert Cruz (14:06)

2. Why Does Gatsby Endure?

Timestamp: 13:43–16:15

• It's short and rereadable (“life is too short, so that helps”).

• Fitzgerald’s sentences and evocation of season, longing, and hope are “gorgeously written.”

• It offers a different meaning as readers age: from the thrill of youth to American disappointment and social class critique.

  Quote:
  “I love the yearning in it so much... The reason why it is a great American novel is because it does something really complicated. It is satire, tragedy, and coming of age.”
  — Min Jin Lee (15:40)

3. Gatsby: Tragedy, Satire, and the American Dream

Timestamp: 16:28–19:20

• Discuss Gatsby’s lack of initial commercial success, emphasizing its complexity and genre hybridity.

• Lee and Morris challenge the idea of the book as a romance; instead, it's about longing for possibility and the American promise rather than love.

• The “bromance” between Nick and Gatsby is more palpable than any straight romance.

  Quote:
  “It is about a romance for possibility. It’s a romance between a citizenry and their country, or the promise of this country.”
  — Wesley Morris (17:09)

4. Character Breakdowns and Reappraisals

Timestamp: 18:43–29:39

• The panel summarizes Gatsby’s plot and main characters, offering quick, irreverent summaries (e.g., "One summer in the 1920s, a bunch of people in New York get really drunk and some of them die at the end." — Gilbert, 06:26).
• Delve into lesser-considered characters:
  • Min is drawn to Myrtle more as she gets older, sympathizing with her striving and tragic fate.
  • Daisy is ultimately branded “evil,” with both Lee and Morris agreeing Fitzgerald’s main women are more symbolic than real.
• A lively back-and-forth about Tom Buchanan’s enduring relevance ("He’s still with us, you know. I mean, he’s in various seats of power.” — Morris, 27:00), with the group dissecting his mix of power, insecurity, and privilege.

5. The Unreliable Narrator and Shifting Perspective

Timestamp: 19:48–23:31

• Cruz reveals that, over time, he’s come to see Nick Carraway less as a trustworthy observer and more as a manipulator of truth:

  "I sort of think Nick is kind of a chump, actually, now that I think about it..." (21:23)

• Morris and Lee discuss how rereading the book teaches us to doubt Nick, and how the act of storytelling—and omission—reflects both personal and national mythmaking.

6. Gatsby as an Allegory for the American Dream

Timestamp: 32:08–37:33

• The guests agree Gatsby's arc (“bootstraps” success, materialism, the illusion of making it) dramatizes both the seduction and limits of social mobility in America.
• Lee draws a parallel to Audre Lorde's idea that "the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house":

  “You cannot become something that you're not. It will destroy you and you will not get what they can get. You cannot be Tom Buchanan. Tom Buchanan can only be Tom Buchanan.”
  — Min Jin Lee (47:47)

7. Gatsby in Popular Culture & Global Reach

Timestamp: 39:35–46:55

• Morris recounts searching for Gatsby adaptations on streaming platforms, then laughing at the wacky algorithm-generated “similar” titles. The OC—a show about a poor kid in a wealthy enclave—is (jokingly) crowned the truest modern Gatsby adaptation.
• Gatsby’s global impact: Lee describes its branding in Asia (“Gatsby is a hair gel in Japan. They are trying to point to this book... But, of course, I’m thinking: you’re dead in a swimming pool!” — Min Jin Lee, 46:03)

8. Gatsby’s Timeless Warning

Timestamp: 35:58–47:05

• The group contextualizes the book within the Roaring Twenties, the impending Great Depression, and the cyclical consequences of excess.
• The ultimate take: Fitzgerald’s true message is an indictment of the American dream’s destructiveness, even as society continues to chase it.

Final Reflections: Why Keep Reading Gatsby?

Timestamp: 47:05–48:51

• Despite being required (and resented) reading for many, Gatsby’s artistry and cultural resonance justify its “Great American Novel” status.

• Each reread brings a new character or perspective to the forefront—proof of its layered construction.

  Quote:
  “Do that exercise that you made us do: see which character changed for you at this moment of rereading, because I do think that’s a very valuable exercise.”
  — Min Jin Lee (48:41)

Memorable Quotes

• “There are truly, honestly, two days in the entire year where you have what I would describe as an involuntary reaction to being outside. And that one sentence captures it...you’re just filled with hope and lust and happiness.”
  — Wesley Morris (10:54)
• “It's a Gatsby movie. That's a misunderstanding of Gatsby, but a Gatsby movie.”
  — Wesley Morris, on class-crossed romance narratives (45:04)
• “He represents the illusion of wealth and material and everything that that means... When one thinks of success in America, for many people, that is what they think of.”
  — Gilbert Cruz (34:46)
• “Don’t you think Fitzgerald is telling us, please, do not go be like Gatsby?”
  — Min Jin Lee (37:34)

Essential Timestamps

• 02:18 – Wesley recounts defining moments with Gatsby.
• 06:26 – Guests’ irreverent one-line plot summaries.
• 14:06 – Cruz explains how the novel’s meaning shifts as readers age.
• 21:23 – Critique of Nick’s honesty and reliability.
• 27:00 – Tom Buchanan as a model of enduring (and terrifyingly current) White male privilege.
• 46:03 – Gatsby as a global brand; the Japanese hair gel story.
• 47:47 – Min Jin Lee summarizes the futility of social climbing as echoed in Lorde's famous quote.

Overall Tone

Conversational, sharp, playful, and gently irreverent—mixing literary criticism with personal confession, pop-culture references, and sly asides (“Jazz is the trap music of its day;” “Did you really give [the book] a fair chance?”). The hosts are literary insiders but disarmingly approachable, poking fun at Gatsby weddings, literary snobs, and their younger selves.

For Listeners Who Haven't Read Gatsby (or Recently)

This is not your high school English class. The hosts genuinely wrestle with why Gatsby still haunts us—its critique of American aspiration, the slipperiness of class and power, and the masterful ways in which every character is a cautionary tale. Even if The Great Gatsby “was just an assignment” once, the conversation here may convince you that every reread reveals a new, often unsettling mirror.

Recommended Segment:
The recurring exercise: “Who’s changed for you this time around?”—a prompt for readers to revisit Gatsby, treating it as a living, shifting document rather than a dusty classic. (See: 19:48 onward)

Next Steps for Listeners:
Reread Gatsby as an adult. Reflect on which character now seems closest to your own hopes, losses, or illusions—and which version of the American dream you’re currently chasing (or running from).