← Cannonball with Wesley Morris
Cannonball with Wesley Morris
Our Last Chance to Talk ‘Gatsby’
00:48:25
When a book publisher asked Wesley to write an introduction for a new edition of “The Great Gatsby,” he was confused. So many people had already written about F. Scott Fitzgerald’s novel since it was first published in 1925. What could he add? And why him? But eventually, he realized he does in fact have a special relationship with this book. He has read it in three different phases of life, and each time, it seemed profound in an entirely new way. So in the final week of the book’s 100th anniversary, Wesley talks to the novelist Min Jin Lee and Gilbert Cruz, editor of The New York Times Book Review, about why all three of them have found themselves in a decades-long relationship with this book.
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- [00:01]
A
Sentimental Value isn't just the must see film of the season. It's the must feel film of the year. Nominated for eight Golden Globe awards, including best picture drama, Joachim Trier's story of love, family and reconciliation is being hailed by critics as one of the best films of the decade, if not ever. Starring Renata Reinzver, Stellan Skarsgrd, and Elle Fanning in career best performances, Sentimental Value is a modern masterpiece. Own or rent it now on digital.
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B
I'm Wesley Morris, and this is Cannonball. Today we're going to party like it's 1925, baby. You've probably heard somewhere that the Great Gatsby turned 100 this year. People have been celebrating this thing as one of those profound literary achievements that's had a big influence on the culture, and it has. People who don't seem to have read this book have been using it to celebrate. I'm looking at you, world leader who threw a Gatsby themed Halloween party. I. I didn't want this anniversary to end without trying to think through this book myself, which is kind of nuts, because up until recently, I didn't think I had a terribly deep or profound relationship with this book. But a few years ago, I got an email from a book publisher asking if I wanted to write the introduction for a new edition of the Great Gatsby that was coming out in 2021. And was I interested? I was more like confused. I was like, do you want me to do what? I mean, everybody's written about this book. What could I possibly have to say that's new? What could I possibly have to say about it that was important? And then I did some thinking and I realized, wait a minute. I have read this book at least three times in three different phases of my life.
- [02:17]
C
Huh.
- [02:18]
B
Why did I do that? The very first time I read it, it was because I had to. Like most students who grew up in this country, it is required reading. The second time I read it, I was in my early 20s. And what I realized then is that this book was young once, too. It was once contemporary with the time in which it was made. The so called roaring twenties during the Harlem Renaissance. You know who else was young once? F. Scott Fitzgerald, the guy who wrote the Great Gatsby. And when this book came out in 1925, he was 28 years old. Think about that. And the young people in it. Tom, Daisy, Nick Jordan, Jay Gatsby. They are all having the time of their lives as young people, even sitting around and not doing much more than smoking or drinking and sweating, going to parties. Honestly, I knew versions of these people and that was eye opening. I could see how foolish and insecure and heartless and cowardly these people are, how unsure and unembarrassed, how everything seemed to belong to them, and how Fitzgerald makes that entitlement seem toxic. I sat around and had all these thoughts and I was like, you know what? I am going to say yes to writing an introduction to this new edition of the Great Gatsby. And I'm really glad I did it because I spent that introduction wondering. Wondering very hard, why is this one of the books that we keep coming back to? What are we looking for? So with me today are two people who are also in some kind of long term relationship with this book. And I'm looking forward to asking them, what is wrong with us and what is it about this book that lives in us the way that this one has? What has it meant for this book to live in the world in the way that I'm convinced it currently does? I've actually been talking on and off about these questions with the superbly incisive novelist Min Jin Lee. Sometimes I've been doing it in public with her. Her books include Free Food for Millionaires and Pachinko. Her new novel, American Hagwon. Oh, my God, what a title. Is coming next year. And she also wrote an introduction to penguins 2021 edition of the Great Gatsby. And then I also learned that my pal and colleague Gilbert Cruz, who runs the New York Times Book Review, he reads the Great Gatsby almost every year. And I was like, no way. He's gotta come in here with me and Min and talk about this.
- [05:02]
D
Min.
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B
Gilbert.
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D
Hello.
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B
Welcome to Cannonball.
- [05:07]
C
Wesley. Thank you for having me on.
- [05:09]
B
You are welcome. Thanks for coming, Wesley and Gilbert. I'm honored.
- [05:12]
E
Old sports I'm happy to be here.
- [05:14]
B
OLD sports. Okay, before we do anything, I think it's extremely important to just establish what the plot of this book is. And I. I would like you, in the fewest number of sentences you can give me, to describe the plot of the Great Gatsby. Here's mine. North Dakota farm boy creates fake identity and amasses fortune to impress wealthy city girl. Death ensues. Min, your turn.
- [05:54]
E
A boy goes to New York. He becomes friends with a really romantic character, right? And then sort of becomes his Cyrano de Bergerac.
- [06:06]
B
Okay, kind of like that. Yes.
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E
Kind of like a wingman to Gatsby to connect with his second cousin, Daisy. And then there's two adulteries that happen. And Then there's a tragedy, and then the boy goes back to Minnesota.
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B
Yes. All right, Gilbert, what's your plot summary?
- [06:27]
C
One summer in the 1920s, a bunch of people in New York get really drunk, and some of them die at the end.
- [06:36]
B
I'll take that.
- [06:37]
E
So I was reading the New York Times wedding section, and then I saw this really adorable couple getting married. And it said they had a Gatsby themed wedding. And all I could think is, did they read the book?
- [06:51]
B
Yeah. What is that? Isn't that just. Isn't that just a wedding? Honestly? Like, does that mean just people just got married in flapper dresses?
- [06:58]
C
It's jazz age attire. Flappers. I think that Gatsby has come to stand in for chartreuse drinks.
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E
This is the adultery book. This is like. There's two adulteries in this book. There are three deaths. I don't understand, like, how that could be a lot.
- [07:12]
B
Three deaths in five pages even.
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E
Right?
- [07:14]
B
And this book, just for a little context, is just. It's set during the Roaring twenties, a time of great possibility. And jazz is the trap music, the pop music of this day. So there are people, like, bringing what they experience in Harlem when they go out to Long island, having these parties in Charlestoning till they can't stand up anymore. And that is the lassitude, that energy, that urban energy creates, this affluent lassitude that these characters are experiencing on page after page of this book where they don't do anything but sit around and talk about how they're not doing anything. So I'm curious. I'll start with you, Min. When did this book come into your life? When did your relationship with the Great Gatsby start?
- [08:05]
E
Well, I came to America, I think, when I was 7, right. So from South Korea. And at some point in my life, I just had to read every single book that mattered. I just decided. And then I think I was in high school, maybe freshman or sophomore year, and then I was told that you had to read the Great Gatsby. Not from my teachers. I just had to read it. So then I bought it. And I didn't really have money to buy books, but I bought it because I thought this was such an important book.
- [08:32]
C
And.
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E
And I read it over and over and over again, and it has become this really important book to me.
- [08:40]
B
Who told you? Do you remember who told you to read it?
- [08:42]
E
Probably librarians and important people in my life. Just kind of like I took my reading cues from cool people in my life. Okay, I know that sounds so nerdy.
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B
No, that sounds like. I don't know who the cool people are telling you to read things that aren't like zines. But.
- [08:59]
E
Well, I mean, I went to Bronx Science. That means that I had.
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B
Oh, that could have been anybody.
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E
That could have been anybody. So when I met girls who I thought were really bookish and cool and interesting to me and they would say, oh, I'm reading this book and I'd be like, oh, I'm gonna go get that book and read it. And mostly I borrowed it, but Gatsby actually bought it and it was only 225, I think.
- [09:17]
B
Was it this version that Gilbert has on the table?
- [09:20]
E
It looks like that, but I didn't bring mine because it's so fragile that I was afraid that it was going to disintegrate.
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C
I regret bringing this in because it is falling apart.
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E
Yeah, it means a lot.
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C
Sacrifices I make.
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B
Gilbert, what about you?
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C
Also in high school, also in the Bronx. But I did not get into Bronx Science. I went to a Catholic all boys school. And as is the case in so many high schools, the baseball teacher was also the English teacher. And I remember him, I could see him to this day because he was a broad shouldered man who wore shirts that were too small for him. Holding this book up in front of all of us. That edition, I think it was this edition, this might actually be my mother's edition, which I remember being.
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B
Cause that one is mine.
- [10:05]
C
That's the edition that I, yeah, had this for a very long time. Holding it up, trying to get us interested in the book. And most of us, possibly even me, being very uninterested in the book. It was only a couple years later when I returned to it on my own that I fell in love with it. And then I read it every year for a time and now I think I read it every other year. But I definitely have done this book more than a dozen times, if not more.
- [10:34]
E
Is there a day or something that you read it on the. Is there an anniversary day?
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C
It's often summer.
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E
April 10th.
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C
It's a sweaty book. It's a summery book. So it is, it feels like summer to me. There's that line in the book that I, I feel like was on social media for a while, you know. Do you always look for the first day of summer and miss it? People would quote that on the first day of summer.
- [10:54]
B
There are some really good seasonal things here. It's just reminding me there's like a, there's a, there's a moment in the book and it like perfectly captures what it's like to have the seasons change. Fitzgerald describes that feeling like this. It was a cool night with that mysterious excitement in it, which comes at the two changes of the year. This man, I mean, he can write a sentence. There's truly, honestly, two days in the entire year where you have what I would describe as an involuntary reaction to being outside. And that one sentence captures it. And it just. That that feeling is like you're just filled with hope and lust and happiness.
- [11:45]
E
It feels like a caress. Like you get that sort of like warm, weird wind, and then you have the light, and then it feels like someone's kind of like touching you, and then that's where the lust problem comes in.
- [11:54]
B
Yes, it is definitely erotic, but it also is transferable, right? Yes. Because you also suddenly just want all these people. You want everything. You want to eat everything. You want to be with everybody. It's a strange feeling. And he captures. There's so many inarticulable experiences captured in this book.
- [12:14]
E
Well, he's a very sensual writer.
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B
Yes, yes, yes.
- [12:17]
E
It's really, really sensual. You can feel it. You can smell it. You can feel the quality of the air. And he's so gifted. Like, there are a lot of people who are haters of this book. I have met many guests. I've met them, and they'll always be like, oh, I don't want to read that book. Why should I read it? I just think, did you really give it a fair chance yet?
- [12:35]
B
They don't really have a case against it, in my experience. They're just like. But part of the reason they don't want to read it is that it was given to. It was an assignment.
- [12:45]
E
But there are a lot of books that are assigned. You don't have to hate them.
- [12:47]
C
Yeah, but there are a few books that are called, to use word in the title that are called great as often as this one are. There are many books that we're supposed to think are great books by Mark Twain and Faulkner and all these writers. But I think there is something about this book that is often called the great American novel, which is an assignation that has so much meaning that turn people off.
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B
It's definitely one of the great American novels, period, right?
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E
Oh, I think so.
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B
And I think one of the things that, I mean, I'd like to come back to later is the company that it keeps in that class. But also, what about it qualifies it as being that? But I want to stay for a second in this habitual relationship that we seem to have with this book. Like why, of all the things that you could be reading, Gilbert, is this the book you read even every other year?
- [13:44]
C
A few reasons. One, it's short. As you said, it is short. And if you're gonna reread a book, pick a short one because life is too short, so that helps. Two, it's just gorgeously written. I mean, there are. I feel like we could spend this entire conversation just quoting lines, but every time I dip into it, I feel like there's something else that I take out and want to memorize because it is evocative in a different way. But the real reason I've reread it so many times is because it is a book that is about time, or at least about a certain time in one's life. And therefore, it has meant something different to me every time that I've read it.
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B
What was the time that you read it where it meant the most or surprised you by how much it meant? Maybe that's the way to put it.
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C
Well, the first time I read it, the first time I really read it, not for school, I think I fell in love with how intoxicating it made youth seem, how fun it made New York seem, how fun it made drinking seem, how fun it made staying up until four in the morning and then catching a train back from the Pennsylvania Station seem. And as someone who has to commute into Penn Station every day now, it is definitely not that. So that was.
- [15:01]
B
You definitely run for some trains in your life.
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C
So many. Too many. So, you know, that's why I initially fell in love with this. And then I re. Fell in love with it when I was a little bit older because I was able to see that that was all the surface stuff. And what it actually was about was hope and disappointment plass in America and how, you know, as Nick tells Jay, you can never sort of recreate the past and you can never recapture these things that you think are owed to you. And that, just as they say, it hits different when you are a little older. Yeah. Yeah.
- [15:39]
B
What about you, Min?
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E
I love the yearning. I love the yearning in it so much, because everybody's yearning and they're really honest about their yearning. But I think that the reason why it is a great American novel is because it does something really complicated. It is satire, tragedy, and coming of age. The fact that it can do all three things in this tight architecture is so impressive because when you actually take this book apart, you're going, holy shit. How did you do that?
- [16:06]
B
How did you do that?
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E
And also at 27, at 27. To be able to do that in terms of craft. I haven't seen a book like this. Truly.
- [16:15]
B
Yeah. And this is Fitzgerald's third novel.
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E
Third novel.
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B
The least of those three.
- [16:21]
E
A total failure.
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B
It did not do well. Really bummed him out because he needed the money.
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E
He really needed the money.
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B
Critically acclaimed, you know, everybody except H.L. menken loved it. And it's funny because in. In your introduction, you call it a tragedy, you call it a satire and a coming of age story, but what you don't call it is a romance.
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E
Yeah, I don't think of it as a romance.
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B
And he thinks that part of the reason it did not do well is because it has no good women characters. And because I think people reading it who were looking for romance don't experience that.
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E
It does not have a happy ending.
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B
It is a romantic book, but it is not about romance. Yeah, right.
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E
Yeah.
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B
It's a. Well, it is about a. It is about a non sexual romance. Right. It is about a romance for possibility. It's a romance between a citizenry and it's in their country. Right. Or the promise of this country.
- [17:26]
E
I also call it a bromance between Nick and Gatsby.
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B
A bromance. I do want to talk about that. We'll come back to it. But I also think that, you know, not everybody listening to us talk about the great Gatsby has actually read it. Or if they did read it, maybe. It's been a while. I think it might be useful to just back up and just talk about who the characters in this book are. There's Gatsby, of course. He buys this Long island mansion next door to a guy named Nick. Nick is our narrator. He tells us this whole story. Nick is cousins with Daisy. She and Gatsby meet a long time ago. He falls in love with her. It's the whole reason that he moves to Long island, buys the mansion, becomes rich and this totally different person from how he grew up and who he was supposed to be if he had stayed in North Dakota. Daisy is married to Tom, this strapping Yale racist. Wait, I'm sorry, Am I. I'm forgetting. Oh, Jordan, Daisy's buddy. She comes over. She's a golfer. She comes over every once in a while and just lays around on the sofa and gossips and I don't know, maybe she and Nick are gonna have a thing that is everybody. Did I leave anybody out?
- [18:44]
C
You left a couple people out. You left out George Wilson, who's a man that owns a garage between Long island and Queens. And his wife Myrtle, who is important because she is the person that Tom is having an affair with.
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B
How could I forget?
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C
You also left out Meyer Wolfsheim, who is someone who pops up occasionally in the story and is sort of the person behind Jay Gatsby, who has helped him become the rich bootlegger that he.
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B
Is, a mentor in some ways, but also kind of clever about how he's mentoring.
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C
Yeah, I think we hit them all.
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B
So I'm interested to know when you guys keep coming back to this book, who is it that you most identify with? And has that identification changed over time for you? And who's the character who continues to surprise you every time you go back to it? Gilbert, I'm a star with you.
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C
Boy. I feel, am I going to get too personal here?
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B
There's not a too personal game.
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E
Personal's good.
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C
I think the characters that have changed the most to me are the ones that I have identified with. Right. And so if we're talking about what I think are the two main characters, are the two main characters of the book, Nick and Gatsby. When I was younger, I thought of myself as someone who wanted to be Gatsby. I was someone who came from a certain place and wanted to go to another place, wanted to reinvent myself into someone who could be successful, someone who could thrive in America, someone who did not sort of grow up, you know, in a lower middle class family in the Bronx. And so the idea of Jay, the idea of Jay Gatz changing himself, reinventing himself, it seemed like something that was a thing you could do in America. And it seemed admirable, possible, even if it didn't work out for him in the end. Right. And now I see Nick as the one that is the person that I think has changed the most, in my estimation. He starts the book by saying, I've never tried to hold judgments against other people. He says at one point in a profoundly, I thought, reading it again a few years ago, arrogant moment. I'm one of the only honest people I know. I used to think Nick was, like, solid. He was an honest guy. Like, he is a good guy.
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B
This is a great. I was gonna ask you guys about this.
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C
I sort of think Nick is kind of a chump, actually, now that I think about it, like, he is telling us the story. So we're only seeing Gatsby through, you know, primarily through his eyes and what we hear from some other people. And he is so high on himself and he believes that he is such a good person that I don't Know that I trust Nick in the way that I used to.
- [21:46]
B
Yes.
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C
The first time I read the story.
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B
Well, I think that some of that is just how we get trained to read. Right.
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C
Yeah.
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B
I learned how to. I learned how to read differently by reading this book, because.
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E
How's that?
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B
Well, I mean, have you ever sat multiple times with somebody who keeps telling the same story?
- [22:06]
E
Yes.
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B
And the story changes.
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E
Yes.
- [22:08]
B
Like, family members, they're just getting stuff wrong.
- [22:12]
C
Yeah.
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B
I just. I don't trust this dude. And I think part of. I don't think he's lying. But there are some things. There are some slights of hand that Fitzgerald tries where Nick will back up and be like, I forgot to tell you something, basically, or here's something I did not witness, but it happened.
- [22:34]
E
And I'm like, chapter nine.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just like, you know, sir. No, I mean, I'm gonna take it because you're giving it to me. I don't know if I believe it.
- [22:44]
E
Well, he's a real pleaser personality. He even tells you in chapter one that there are times when he has to feign sleep because he doesn't really want to hear your personal story because he's got a kind of affect that's a pleaser. So he's kind of like, don't get too close, because I really don't want to be too close. I know I look like somebody you can tell secrets to, but I don't want to hear it. And you're thinking, oh, he's an ass.
- [23:03]
B
Yeah.
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C
Yeah. He says in. He and Tom went to Yale. Right. They went to New Haven. He says in college, he was considered a politician because he was often a person that people would open up to and give their secrets to. Probably because he had a certain affect. Maybe he was not that interesting a person, so he didn't have much to add to conversations. And I think it leads him to believe a certain conception of himself that may not be accurate.
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B
Min, who's changing for you?
- [23:34]
E
Oh, Myrtle.
- [23:35]
C
Oh. Ooh.
- [23:36]
E
I know. It's really odd because she's someone I really didn't notice. She was an object in the plot.
- [23:43]
B
Yeah. I mean, nobody's noticing Myrtle.
- [23:45]
E
And as I've gotten older, I have been thinking about a person like Myrtle. A person who takes less than she deserves, aspires to be someone who she shouldn't want to aspire to be, and then has a tragic ending. And she hates her husband, so she cheats on him with a rich guy, Tom Buchanan, who's kind of a White supremacist jerk.
- [24:07]
B
Kind of white supremacist. He is recommending works of white supremacy for his friends to read.
- [24:12]
E
Yes. And eugenics. So he's a bad guy. So what I found really interesting about Myrtle is that she really wants Tom, but I think she has an obsession with Daisy, or the Daisy archetype. And I found that relationship between these two women. They're both objects, the women characters in Fitzgerald's work. They're not great. He actually thought so.
- [24:32]
B
Yes.
- [24:33]
E
And he actually blames the failure of Gatsby at his time, because the women have really horrible endings, both of them. I mean, Daisy's really, truly an evil woman. So she's evil.
- [24:45]
B
Just say it.
- [24:46]
E
Yes, she's evil.
- [24:47]
B
You need to say it. You need to say it. No, no.
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E
She's a biatch. I mean, like, there's no way to say that nicely.
- [24:53]
B
Well, you know, it's amazing. Like, at some point, you know, my.
- [24:56]
E
Queen just came right out there.
- [24:57]
B
Yeah, I got. But how has Myrtle changed for you over time?
- [25:05]
E
Well, I didn't really think about her when I read the book several times. And then as I got older, and then I heard more stories about adultery. I was trying to understand, like, why do women participate in these relationships? That cannot work. It isn't like Myrtle ever thought that Tom was gonna leave Daisy for her.
- [25:25]
B
No.
- [25:26]
E
Right. I mean, she's smart enough to know that, and yet she's kind of saying, I will take the crumbs.
- [25:31]
B
Yes.
- [25:31]
E
And we know for sure that Daisy, even though she's a desired object, she's the one that is beautiful and wanted and has the voice of money. But here's Myrtle. She satisfies something in Tom that Daisy cannot. I mean, her fierce vitality. Her sexuality.
- [25:49]
B
Yes, I was gonna say his penis.
- [25:51]
E
Sure. It satisfies his penis. And then in the very end, when she has to be so brutally murdered, like, almost hacked up, I mean, there's.
- [26:02]
B
A really brutal description of her body in the wake of this accident.
- [26:07]
E
Well, her breast gets lopped off.
- [26:08]
C
Yeah.
- [26:09]
E
So I have a lot more sympathy for Myrtle, even though obviously she's not that nice. And she is crass. But she is from Queens, and so am I. So there you go.
- [26:19]
C
She seems kind of fun.
- [26:21]
E
Yeah. I think Myrtle would be really a robust, curvy woman. Very vital, very sexy. She probably smells like perfume, but there's a kind of raw intelligence, a kind of animal quality. But then very smart and wants to get what she wants to get, and yet doesn't know how to get them. Not in a real way.
- [26:41]
B
Wild. Wild. A feral sexual being.
- [26:45]
E
Like hot in bed. Like, you can totally see her being hot in bed.
- [26:48]
C
Yes. Yeah.
- [26:49]
B
Listening to you talk about Myrtle, I do want to think about Tom because he is the. He is the most fascinating person in the book, in some ways, at least to me at this moment.
- [26:59]
E
He's beautifully drawn.
- [27:00]
B
Yes. And I think that, you know, there's so many moments where Tom is both like a homunculus and a troglodyte, but also, you know, a master of the universe.
- [27:15]
D
Oh, yeah.
- [27:16]
B
But of nothing. Right.
- [27:17]
E
Like, think about.
- [27:18]
B
I mean, with all due respect to our polo people, think about what polo is. You get in a horse, you ride around and you smack a ball. Like you get. You. You gotta make sure you don't step in any. Any doo doo. I mean, that's his. Basically his life since he graduated from. From Yale.
- [27:36]
E
Tough life.
- [27:37]
C
Although he does not want to be known as the polo player.
- [27:39]
B
He does not. He wants to be. He just wants to sit back and watch all the weird people at a Gatsby party.
- [27:45]
E
Yeah.
- [27:45]
B
But Tom, to me, is also, weirdly, the most modern of these characters. I mean, it's like in that he's this type of guy is. He's still with us, you know, I mean, he's in various seats of power right now. And there's this great moment where you get a sense of both his insecurity and his racism in this scene toward the end of the book, which I'm. If you don't mind, I'm going to read a little bit of. This is the part where they've all had too much to drink and Tom has just accused Gatsby of flirting with Daisy. And Daisy's trying to, like, get him to calm down. And it's just before Gatsby and Daisy jump in the car and accidentally kill Myrtle. Here we go. He isn't causing a row. Daisy looked desperately from one to the other, meaning Gatsby. Tom, you're causing a row. Please have a little self control. Self control? Repeated Tom incredulously. I suppose the latest thing is to sit back and let Mr. Nobody from Nowhere make love to your wife. Well, if that's the idea, you can count me out. Nowadays, people begin by sneering at family life and family institutions. And next they'll be throwing everything overboard and having intermarriage between black and white. And, you know, I'm sorry, that person is basically hosting cable news shows, issuing executive orders, running branches of our government right now. It's just, you know, who never goes out of style. Tom.
- [29:20]
E
Yeah.
- [29:21]
B
And there's something just really fascinating about how weak and strong he is in every scene of this book. He is both, like, physically imposing, as written by Fitzgerald, but also confused and dupable at the same time. And yet he's also in control in a way that not everybody can see. He actually is playing chess with these people's lives.
- [29:48]
E
Is he in control because he has a lot of money, or is it because he's in full possession of his masculinity? What do you think?
- [29:55]
C
I think he is in control because he has a lot of money. I think that no matter how dumb he is, no matter how dumb a lot of people are, if you have.
- [30:02]
B
A lot of money, we don't actually have any proof. I mean, there's somebody.
- [30:07]
C
There's some proof from parties.
- [30:10]
B
There's a great line about how often he reads or doesn't read.
- [30:12]
C
Yeah.
- [30:13]
B
That is just five stars.
- [30:16]
C
But anyway. And, you know, you get the impression that he went to college to play sports. He didn't go to college to do it. And I can't remember if he went to war. I know Gatsby and Nick went to war. I can't remember.
- [30:25]
E
He did go to war. Yeah.
- [30:27]
C
Something we haven't talked about that this is. All these men have been to war and back. But I think he has a lot of money. So no matter what happens, he can come in and be confident in the idea that he can solve a problem with his money. Right.
- [30:42]
E
But he loves Daisy, right?
- [30:44]
C
I don't know if he loves Daisy. I think he might be like Gatsby. He might love the idea of Daisy.
- [30:49]
B
Daisy's an idea. I mean, she's a.
- [30:52]
C
What does he love? What is she? Who is she?
- [30:55]
E
So when he gets upset, do you think he's just humiliated? So he loves his pride.
- [30:59]
C
Absolutely.
- [31:00]
B
I have a theory about men. Tell me a certain kind of man.
- [31:03]
E
Straight men, powerful men, white men, black men, What? Let's be specific.
- [31:09]
B
I'm gonna say I think there's a kind of man. And I think. You know, I think it's interesting. Cause I think Donald Trump is every single character in this book. I think he, at different points in his life, has been Jay. He's been Nick. Well, maybe not Nick, but Myrtle. But. But. I mean, yes, actually. Yes. I think that. That Daisy is somehow. I think that, like, the. The sort of conflation of him and all these other people is. Is a thing that makes him fascinating because he's mostly a Gatsby. Right. But he's got these. I mean, think about. He came from. He came from Queensland, right. He's a migrant from a much closer area. Right. But his. His desire to get into these upper echelons of. To become a person who has these great parties that people come to. A person to, you know, become friends with a tom and a daisy. Like that's still in him, right?
- [32:09]
E
Yeah. He wants to be liked.
- [32:10]
B
And I think that there's this great moment when Jay Gatsby has died because George Wilson has murdered him.
- [32:18]
E
Yes. Murder, suicide.
- [32:20]
B
And then killed himself. George Wilson. And lo and behold, his father shows up. Mr. Gatz Henry shows up and says the most remarkable thing. And he's like, you know. You know, my son really could have been like James J. Hill, the railroad Maggie. Yeah. And, you know, heretofore, like, really interesting Canadian turned American citizen, slash Minnesotan.
- [32:48]
C
Right.
- [32:49]
B
And he could have made something of this country, my son. And I'm reading this, you know, in this. In this moment, and I'm like, yeah. The one thing that's really fascinating about this whole book is that it's all about waste and it's all about things not happening. These people don't do anything. Like what is Gatsby's. Where does the money come from? Comes from bootlegging, right? Coming from breaking the law.
- [33:19]
C
And what was a service not provided?
- [33:21]
B
A service was provided. But think about the service being provided, right, in 1922. It's among the worst things you can be. It is. I mean, this is happening during Prohibition. This is a person who. These people don't make anything. They don't contribute anything. They just take. These people don't even pay taxes. Right. These are people so in control of the system that they are not. That they're also not beholden to in any way. They're operating by their own rules. And I just feel like, you know, Jay, to me, there's something. Gatsby to me is. Is in a lot of people. Because the story of this book is so much a part of the story America tells about itself. Maybe even in part because this. Because Fitzgerald told it. Right. He created a paradigm for people to ascribe themselves in. I mean, you yourself, Gilbert, the paradigm spoke to you.
- [34:32]
C
Absolutely. The American dream.
- [34:35]
B
Yeah.
- [34:36]
C
I mean, come from nothing. Go to something. The appearance that Gatsby presents to people is what he looks like. But also, most people never meet Gatsby in the book. The people that come to his party.
- [34:46]
B
He's a story.
- [34:47]
C
Never meet him.
- [34:48]
B
Yeah, he's a story.
- [34:48]
C
And so what they See is the house and the champagne and the pools and the money and the wealth. And I think that is when one thinks of success in America, for many people, that is what they think of. They're not thinking of the man. They're thinking of all the material items around them. If you watch reality tv, if you think of the way that you ask a person, if you win the lotto, what would you do with it? I'd buy a big house. I'd get a nice car. I'd buy a pool. That's what to so many characters in this book, not the main characters, Gatsby represents. He represents the illusion of wealth and material and everything that that means.
- [35:32]
E
And ironically, Fitzgerald is indicting that dream and saying, and therefore, Gatsby must die.
- [35:37]
C
Yeah, I don't think a lot of people take that lesson.
- [35:41]
B
But also, I mean, the other thing that people don't take is that, like, this is a book about people who have all that stuff and are still miserable.
- [35:50]
E
No. And they make each other miserable. And all that idleness actually hurts them. There is a real critique of that. But, you know, if I could add one thing.
- [35:58]
B
Yes.
- [35:59]
E
Is that the Roaring Twenties is a period between 1920 to 1929. And it's marked by a couple of things. It's marked by the women's right to vote. Comes the silent film becomes talkies. There is an incredible, incredible amount of prosperity that's built. And there's also a migration from the farm to the city. So all of that is being chronicled. This book is published in 1925. And the most important thing at the end of the roaring twenties is. Is the Great Depression, which comes in 1929, which Fitzgerald observed in his personal life, but he didn't know that when he was writing it at the time. So all that lassitude, all that sloth, all that idleness, all this carelessness. It's interesting that history actually bears out the damage that will come. That all that selfishness, all that self indulgence actually creates devastation for everybody. Not just the rich, but for everybody. And I think in that sense, all of us, 100 years afterwards looks at this example and goes, oh, that's another reason why we think this, because, sorry.
- [37:07]
B
I think this book is great. Are important.
- [37:09]
E
Well, I think that we're lucky to have this sort of person taking notes on society.
- [37:15]
B
Yeah, I see through this narrative.
- [37:18]
E
And then the conclusion is this Great Depression, which he did experience. And then we now, 100 years go, wow, this person noticed something in the culture, emotionally, psychologically, and he put it in drama. And that's the reason why we connect to it.
- [37:34]
B
Yes.
- [37:34]
E
Don't you think Fitzgerald is telling us, please do not go be like Gatsby.
- [37:40]
B
Too late. Okay, we're gonna take a break. Just one sec. We'll be right back. It's very short.
- [37:58]
A
What makes an island vacation magical? The culture of music and dance, the art and architecture, the great outdoors. For Puerto Rico, it's all three. Visit San Juan and see the city's museums, music, and dance schools as you pass traditional colonial architecture. Or hear the island come alive at night. Whether it's Puerto Rico's iconic coqui, frogs singing from the trees or enjoying salsa and reggaeton at local bars and restaurants, learn all the ways you can discover Puerto Rico. Learn more@discoverportorico.com this podcast is supported by GiveWell.
- [38:32]
B
When you give to a nonprofit, how do you measure success? Many focus on low overhead, but what about real impact on people's lives? Over 150,000 donors have used GiveWell's research, collectively saving 300,000 lives and improving millions more. Make a tax deductible donation@givewell.org first time donors can have their donation matched up to $100 as long as matching funds last. Select podcast and New York Times at checkout.
- [38:58]
D
Don't just imagine a better future. Start investing in one with betterment. Whether it's saving for today or building wealth for tomorrow, we help people in small businesses put their money to work. We automate to make saving simpler. We optimize to make investing smarter. We build innovative technology backed by financial experts. For anyone who's ever said, I think I can do better, so be invested in yourself. Be invested in your business. Be invested in better with betterment. Get started@betterment.com investing involves risk performance not guaranteed.
- [39:36]
B
I just sort of want to talk about the way in which this book lives in our culture now. And I. I want to start superficially, because when I was looking, I just wanted to watch one of the movies. I watched two before we spoke today because I just was curious about how they. How they've aged. The answer is the Baz Luhrmann aged even worse than I thought it was going to.
- [39:56]
E
Why?
- [39:58]
B
I mean, it just doesn't work. I was. I. I couldn't believe that a Baz Luhrmann movie had managed to bore me. This isn't because Baz Luhrmann is like my favorite filmmaker or anything, but like, the. The point of a Baz Luhrmann movie is to do anything but bore you. It is basically like A bump of cocaine. And even if it doesn't work for you, you don't know what's going on because you're high on buzz. In this case, the movie is just stuck being the book. And I don't think anybody really understands what's happening in the book, except for Leonardo DiCaprio. And the reason that that performance is so good is because he clearly read the book. He clearly identified all of the jitteriness, all of the nerves that Nick is expressing, that Gatsby has, all of the perceptions that Nick has, that this guy is weird and something is always off. That's all DiCaprio is doing in this movie, is playing like a crazy person. He's identified the sociopath that lives inside this seemingly glamorous mystery. He's kind of demystified him and made him really psychologically interesting. But I will say, while I was looking for that movie, I thought it was just gonna be on HBO or Max, and it was not. But when I got to Max and was looking around and couldn't find it, Max was like, don't go. Please don't go. Why don't you stay and watch one of these? So it sicked the algorithm on me and gave me stuff from its arch and to say, like, you know, if you like the Great Gatsby, you'll almost certainly like this.
- [41:46]
E
What did the algorithm offer you?
- [41:47]
B
Are you ready for this? A Very Long Engagement. The Audrey Tattoo. Jean Pierre Genet.
- [41:57]
C
That movie does not exist. Sorry.
- [41:59]
B
You've never seen it?
- [42:00]
E
No.
- [42:01]
B
Oh, my God. This is such a Gilbert Cruz movie.
- [42:03]
C
I'm not.
- [42:05]
B
It is the guy who made Delicatessen and Amelie.
- [42:07]
C
I've seen Amelie many times.
- [42:09]
E
I love Amelie.
- [42:10]
B
I think it's a World War I movie. Oh, with Audrey tattoo.
- [42:14]
C
So is that because both movies were tagged World War I?
- [42:17]
B
Dangerous Liaisons?
- [42:19]
E
I like that one.
- [42:20]
C
Oh, okay.
- [42:21]
B
As a Gatsby movie or as a.
- [42:22]
E
No, no, no. As a movie.
- [42:24]
B
So just when you. When you smell a rat, say, I smell a rat.
- [42:27]
E
All right.
- [42:28]
B
Dangerous Liaisons.
- [42:30]
E
Okay.
- [42:30]
C
Rat.
- [42:31]
E
Rat.
- [42:32]
B
The Bodyguard.
- [42:34]
E
What? No.
- [42:36]
C
We got a Hfield Bat.
- [42:37]
E
Kevin Costner.
- [42:38]
B
Casablanca.
- [42:41]
E
I don't get it.
- [42:42]
C
Maybe, you know, like, love from the past that they try to return to but doesn't work out at the end.
- [42:48]
E
Like, what? Bridges of Madison County. Is that next? Because we're talking now about romances that don't work.
- [42:53]
B
The Bridges of Madison County.
- [42:55]
D
Hey.
- [42:59]
E
Thank you. She's really good in that. Meryl is really good in that.
- [43:03]
B
That is one of the great performances anybody's ever doing. Anything.
- [43:07]
E
She was really good.
- [43:08]
B
She is fantastic. His sexiest. Sexiest.
- [43:12]
D
Clint.
- [43:12]
E
Yeah. I mean, he can be hot. He's really strange politically, but yes.
- [43:16]
B
The Curious case of Benjamin Button. Obvious reasons based on a. Fitzgerald.
- [43:21]
E
Fitzgerald. Yeah.
- [43:22]
B
This story, Rebel Without a Cause. And the O.C. and the O.C.
- [43:29]
C
Yeah.
- [43:29]
B
I'm gonna show you.
- [43:30]
E
What is the O.C. is that television?
- [43:32]
C
Ugh.
- [43:32]
B
Is it television? It's the television Iest. But. But listen, my question for you is, out of all these movies and TV properties that I have just mentioned to you, which one do you think is essentially the same story as Gatsby? I circled the winner on my multiple choice card.
- [43:48]
C
Oh, oh, wait, wait. Like poor boy from Chino, the OC Meets rich girl from. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [43:57]
E
It's unbelievable.
- [43:58]
B
I would never have thought of that.
- [44:00]
E
But the algorithm did.
- [44:01]
B
Ah, the algorithm. I mean, but look how many tries. It needed a lot. It needed like a dozen tries to.
- [44:07]
C
AI Is getting better every day.
- [44:10]
E
But you're tough critic.
- [44:12]
B
What?
- [44:13]
E
You guys are.
- [44:14]
B
You guys smell the rat every time.
- [44:16]
C
That's a stinky index card.
- [44:20]
B
But the O.C. the O.C.
- [44:22]
C
Is.
- [44:23]
B
It's Gatsby. This is the description from Max. This is the logline. A troubled young man makes waves in a wealthy harborfront community. I mean, the kids from Chino. He tries to make it in this. In this Orange county enclave, everybody's real rich and conservative and all that stuff. And he naturally, he falls for this rich girl. And I should just say Ben McKenzie, who plays the Gatsby figure on this show, had a little Gatsby. What I would describe as a Gatsby look back then, blonde, quote, innocent looking, could be from North Dakota.
- [44:57]
C
I don't know.
- [44:58]
B
It all comes together.
- [45:00]
E
Every story that has the one that got away. And what would I do to get that person back?
- [45:05]
B
That's a Gatsby movie. That's a misunderstanding of Gatsby, but a Gatsby movie.
- [45:09]
C
Yeah. I think whenever you have a romance across classes, as in the OC Is reflected there.
- [45:16]
B
Yeah, I think that that is part of it, but I also think that they're. It's deeper than that. Right. Like this book just exists in the world. And I mean, we've kind of talked about it.
- [45:31]
E
It's a hair gel in Japan. I know you wanted to know that.
- [45:35]
C
I'm sorry, what did you say?
- [45:37]
E
Gatsby is a hair gel in Japan.
- [45:40]
B
Ah, that makes sense. Gats. Gatsby.
- [45:43]
E
No, it's just that Gatsby is so popular and it's permeated Every aspect of Asia.
- [45:49]
C
Uh huh.
- [45:50]
E
Oh wait, this book is really important globally.
- [45:53]
C
No, no, no.
- [45:53]
E
I mean, I like it's this book and Anne Frank. Everybody's read it.
- [45:56]
C
Wait, wait, say more about Gatsby in Asia.
- [46:00]
E
So if you go to most cities and I'm just gonna speak for the East Asian countries.
- [46:03]
C
Sure.
- [46:04]
E
Cause I can't speak about others right now. You will find a cafe called Gatsby, I believe it. And in Japan they have hair products and they're called Gatsby. And they are trying to point to this book. So if you're aspirational, if you want to remake your personality, you put this stuff on your head. But of course, I'm thinking you're going to be dead. If you read the book, you're dead in a swimming pool.
- [46:26]
C
It's not good. Yeah, but your hair looks good.
- [46:28]
B
Yeah, but I think as a brand, its brand is strong. The ways in which this book is so. It so captures of like an aspect of the American experience and you can graft yourself onto it, but you're only going to get. But so far there's a key that you need to be able to drive the car that far. This is the kind of comedy of the American dream in some way, right?
- [46:55]
E
Yeah.
- [46:56]
B
Like you can do everything that you want to try to get it, but it really only belongs to like one person.
- [47:05]
E
In Fitzgerald's indictment of the American dream and of those and what you just said about how one person can get away with the architecture and the creation of all this destruction for his own purposes, it really reminded me of Audre Lorde Preach. So the idea that when she says the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house, like we can all get this education, we can all ape their behavior, we can even have their dreams, and yet it will not work. And I think that's Gerald when he saw that what he was saying is what Audre Lorde was saying is that you cannot become something that you're not. It will destroy you and you will not get what they can get. Like, you cannot be Tom Buchanan. Tom Buchanan can only be Tom Buchanan.
- [47:55]
B
Yeah, only Tom can be Tom.
- [47:58]
E
I really hope that people give this book the kind of due that it deserves. I mean, I know that I was really thinking about this. I thought like, is it underrated?
- [48:08]
D
No, no, no.
- [48:09]
E
I think it's because it's so revered and I'm a pretty critical person. But I think that for me, the architecture of it, the formation of this, it's really hard to do what he did. So you have to give him his flowers, as they say.
- [48:24]
C
I Hope that this 100th anniversary, it spurs people on to revisit. I think a lot of people have read this book. Maybe they haven't read it in several decades.
- [48:33]
B
Read it as an adult.
- [48:34]
C
Pick it up. As I said, it's short, beautifully written. There is a lot of pleasure to be found in this book and do.
- [48:42]
E
That exercise that you made us do is to see which character changed for you at this moment of rereading because I do think that's a very valuable exercise.
- [48:51]
B
Minjin Lee, Gilbert Cruz. I would do this every week. This book should turn 100 every week. Thanks for coming.
- [48:59]
C
Thank you, Wesley. You're welcome.
- [49:01]
E
Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun.
- [49:15]
A
Sentimental value isn't just the must see film of the season. It's the must feel film of the year. Nominated for eight Golden Globe awards, including best picture drama, Joachim Trier's story of love, family and reconciliation is being hailed by critics as one of the best films of the decade, if not ever. Starring Renate Reinswehr, Stellan Skarsgrd, and Elle Fanning in career best performances, Sentimental Value is a modern masterpiece. Own or rent it now on digital.
- [49:46]
B
Hey, it's Vaughn Vreeland from New York Times cooking. Colder weather is here and I'm no meteorologist, but I think the forecast says you should bake with us.
- [49:55]
E
These are deluxe cookies.
- [49:57]
C
Do you guys want to try this? Oh, my God. I could eat 5 billion of these.
- [50:01]
B
Mixing bowl to cookie in your mouth in about 30 minutes.
- [50:04]
C
Ooh, look at this color. Smells so good. You better cut because this is gonna get messy.
- [50:11]
B
Listen, even if there's sweaters in your oven right now, I promise at New York Times cooking, we have a recipe for everyone, so come bake with us@nytcooking.com. This episode of Cannonball was produced by John White, Elissa Dudley, Janelle Anderson, and Austin Mitchell. It was edited by Wendy Dore and Lisa Tobin. Daniel Ramirez engineered this episode. It was recorded by Matty Masiello, Kyle Grandillo and Nick Pittman. Dan Powell and Diane Wong do the original music. They always do. Our theme music, as always, is by Justin Ellington. Bobby Dirwerty took the photo for our show art. Our video team is Brooke Minters and Felice Leon. This episode was filmed by Alfredo Chiarapa and Dave Mayers. It was edited by Amy Marino and Jeremy Rocklin. As always, you know we're on YouTube. Thanks for listening to everybody and be back next week with I heard he sang a good song. I heard he had a style.
- [51:37]
D
Don't just imagine a better future. Start investing in one with betterment. Whether it's saving for today or building wealth for tomorrow. We help people in small businesses put their money to work. We automate to make saving simpler. We optimize to make investing smarter. We build innovative technology backed by financial experts. For anyone who's ever said, I think I can do better. So be invested in yourself. Be invested in your business. Be invested in better with betterment. Get started@betterment.com investing involves risk performance not guaranteed.