Podcast Summary: “Plastic Off the Sofa” – Cannonball with Wesley Morris

Host: Wesley Morris
Guest Co-Host: Jenna Wortham
Published by: The New York Times
Date: November 29, 2022
Episode Focus: A deeply personal and critical conversation about Black Panther: Wakanda Forever, exploring grief, cultural representation, colonialism, and the role of Disney as a cultural force.

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode unpacks the cultural and emotional impact of Black Panther: Wakanda Forever. Wesley Morris and Jenna Wortham explore how the film honors Chadwick Boseman, addresses collective mourning, and expands Marvel's vision of representation. They also grapple with the uneasy reality of Disney’s immense cultural reach and the complexities it introduces.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Processing Grief: Chadwick Boseman's Death (00:43–07:40)

• Immediate Challenge: The hosts wonder how the film will address Chadwick Boseman’s (T’Challa’s) real-life death and its effect on both the narrative and audiences.
• Opening Rituals: The movie’s opening with a royal funeral evokes genuine mourning, seen both in the characters and the actors themselves.
  • “You're also watching actors who've lost their co-star. You’re watching Angela Bassett and Letitia Wright and Danai Gurira weep.”
    — Wesley Morris, 02:54
• Meta Mourning: The film’s altered Marvel logo—only featuring Boseman—is described as a poignant corporate tribute.
  • “For a mega production to devote its brand logo to this dead black actor, its star, it’s just really moving.”
    — Wesley Morris, 03:31
• Societal Need for Grieving Spaces: Jenna reflects on how Boseman’s passing coincided with a period of pandemic-related loss.
  • “By late summer… we were really coming to terms with how impoverished our grieving and mourning rituals are.”
    — Jenna Wortham, 04:07
  • They see the film as a rare collective grieving opportunity, particularly for Black communities.

2. Collective Grieving in Black Communities (05:21–07:40)

• Radical Black Grieving Practices: The conversation shifts to smaller, private grief rituals (e.g., vigils for Dominique Remy Fells and Toyin Salau) and contrasts these with Marvel's global public sphere.
• A Surprising Vehicle: The hosts marvel at Marvel’s role in providing this collective framework for mourning.
  • “It winds up being Marvel that offers this framework for walking us through, trying to process this grief collectively. I just—blows my mind.”
    — Jenna Wortham, 07:23

3. The Stakes and Themes of Wakanda Forever (08:10–15:25)

• Shifts from First Film: The sequel pivots from questions of nationalism vs. globalism to more complex cultural and political fights.
• Introduction of Talokan & Namor:
  • Namor, drawn from Mesoamerican mythologies, leads Talokan—a hidden civilization also shaped by colonization.
  • The undersea city is vividly described; both hosts wish for even more screen time exploring it.
  • “Like, yes, we both wanted more. We both wanted more. Like, an hour of the film could have just been set in Talokan.”
    — Jenna Wortham, 10:30
• Colonial Legacies: The Talokan storyline powerfully links to hemispheric histories of colonization and resistance.

4. Wakanda and Talokan: Allies or Adversaries? (12:16–15:07)

• Potential Unity: Both civilizations have vibranium and are at risk from Western extraction, but have different strategies—diplomacy vs. warfare.
  • “The idea that they are special and unique and alone in this fight… this changes everything.”
    — Jenna Wortham, 14:30
• Villains and Perspective: Namor isn’t treated as a conventional villain—the real antagonists are the unnamed colonizers seeking resources.

5. Representation: Riri Williams and Affirming Black Genius (15:31–18:19)

• Subverting Expectations: The much-hyped scientist “at MIT” is not a white male but Riri Williams, a young Black woman from Chicago.
• Cultural Recognition: A highlight is Riri’s recognition of differences in how Blackness is experienced in Wakanda versus the US.
  • “To be young, gifted and Black, right? And then she corrects herself… Oh, wait, you probably don’t say that in Wakanda, do you?”
    — Wesley Morris, 16:11
• Affirmation for Black Viewers: Riri’s arc offers authentic representation, not just for white audiences but as a reaffirming mirror for Black identity and capability.

6. Disney as a Cultural Force – Blessing or Colonizer? (21:04–30:55)

• Wesley’s Confession: He admits he didn’t love the first Black Panther, but appreciated Coogler’s attempts to imbue blockbuster cinema with Black cultural specificity.
• The Problem of Conflict: Both feel discomfort with the depiction of Wakanda and Talokan (Africans vs. Central Americans) at war.
  • “It is the worst part of the movie… It is deeply uncomfortable to watch these groups fight.”
    — Jenna Wortham, 23:11
• Disney as a Colonizing Force: The hosts overtly refer to Disney’s absorption of studios as a kind of modern cultural colonization.
  • “Disney is a colonizing force. Right. Truly, Disney has spent the last 30 years essentially being this colonizing force.”
    — Wesley Morris, 24:47
• Questions of Responsibility: If Disney controls so much, what is it responsible for culturally? Marvel now tells stories with very specific cultural, religious, and racial lenses—should it take even more risks?
  • “Why not just take some risks, some real risks? … The things that started this company out were based on ideas of minstrelsy, xenophobia, and blatant racism. So there’s a lot of complexity in the... legacy of this company.”
    — Wesley Morris, 27:04 & 27:31

7. The Loss of Cultural Diversity Within Monoculture (28:53–30:56)

• Benefits & Losses: While Marvel boosts certain voices, the monoculture potentially limits where else Black creatives can go or what independent projects they might lead.
  • “Who knows what movies and plays and TV shows and creations Dominique Thorne could have been in. But instead, she’s playing Riri Williams, and I can’t wait. But there's still a question of what she could have been doing.”
    — Jenna Wortham, 29:31
• Chadwick Boseman’s Legacy: Despite criticisms, the hosts close by acknowledging that only a company of Disney’s scale could so publicly mourn Boseman, rendering his impact meaningful for millions.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “For a mega production to devote its brand logo to this dead black actor, its star, it’s just really moving.”
  (Wesley Morris, 03:31)

• “It winds up being Marvel that offers this framework for walking us through, trying to process this grief collectively. I just—blows my mind.”
  (Jenna Wortham, 07:23)

• “All the risk is being taken out. Right. And it makes a movie like this, like Wakanda Forever, seem risky when really they could do anything and it would still make a half a billion dollars in three weekends.”
  (Wesley Morris, 29:40)

• “Disney is a colonizing force. Right. Truly, Disney has spent the last 30 years essentially being this colonizing force.”
  (Wesley Morris, 24:47)

• “Who knows what movies and plays and TV shows and creations Dominique Thorne could have been in ... But instead, she’s playing Riri Williams, and I can’t wait. But there's still a question of what she could have been doing.”
  (Jenna Wortham, 29:31)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:43 — Opening questions on grief and Chadwick Boseman’s passing
• 02:54 — Meta-mourning onscreen and off
• 03:31 — The Marvel logo tribute
• 07:23 — Marvel as a framework for collective grieving
• 10:30 — Wonder and awe at Talokan
• 14:30 — Wakanda’s self-image challenged by discovering Talokan
• 16:11 — “To be young, gifted and Black” in Wakanda vs. America
• 21:04 — Confession: Not loving the first Black Panther
• 23:11 — Discomfort with the inter-cultural battle in the film
• 24:47 — Disney’s role as a cultural colonizer
• 27:04 — Marvel’s cultural responsibilities and historic baggage
• 28:53 — Cultural monoculture and missed opportunities for Black creatives
• 29:40 — Final thoughts on the paradox of risk-taking and Chadwick Boseman’s legacy

Tone & Language

The conversation is thoughtful, candid, and emotionally resonant. Both hosts blend incisive cultural critique with personal reactions and honest vulnerability. There's a mutual sense of awe at certain achievements, frustration at structural systems, and loving care in their cultural analysis.

Conclusion

This episode of Cannonball is a wide-ranging conversation about grief, representation, and cultural power, holding the complexities of both mourning and celebration, hope and warning. Whether or not you’re a Marvel fan, this is a deep and accessible guide to one of 2022’s biggest films—and to the forces shaping how we grieve, imagine, and identify.