Robert Redford Was a True Movie Star. Are There Any Left?

Summary

Cannonball with Wesley Morris

Episode: "Robert Redford Was a True Movie Star. Are There Any Left?"
Date: October 9, 2025
Host: Wesley Morris
Guest: Bill Simmons

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Overview

In this episode, Wesley Morris and Bill Simmons explore the elusive qualities of movie stardom by reflecting on the legacy of Robert Redford, who recently passed away. Using Redford as a lens, they dig into what makes a "true" movie star, whether such icons still exist today, and how cultural shifts and the landscape of Hollywood have evolved. They revisit classic Redford roles, compare him to contemporaries, and play their signature "Above the Fold" game, rating which current and past celebrities would merit front-page, above-the-fold status in The New York Times upon their death. The tone is a mix of warmth, nostalgia, and sharp cultural critique, blending personal anecdotes with broader cultural insights.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining "Movie Star": The Redford Standard

• Redford’s Unique Stardom:
  Morris opens by describing Redford as the ultimate movie star, “Everybody's mom, including mine, loved this man. She paid good money to see him act. But I have no doubt that she'd have paid with a piece of her heart, too, which is kind of how you know he was a star.” (01:03)
• Movie Star vs. Actor:
  Simmons: "We don't have Redfords anymore. They just don't exist." (02:22)

2. Redford's Defining Roles and Their Cultural Impact

• Key Redford Films:
  • Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid: The charismatic buddy dynamic with Paul Newman, which Simmons describes as “almost the first modern buddy cop movie. Even though they're not cops, they're the bad guys. But the way they interact, I think has been stolen for the next 55 years.” (05:14)
  • All the President’s Men: Redford’s subtlety, trustworthiness, and decency as Bob Woodward stand out. Simmons praises Redford for how he handles nuanced roles: “Those parts don't get enough credit for how hard they are.” (08:48)
  • The Natural: Iconic sports myth-making and Redford’s embodiment of untouchable moral heroism. “He hits a home run that makes the lights explode and then has a catch with his bastard son in a cornfield.” (10:05)
  • Three Days of the Condor: Morris calls it “pure movie star gold,” highlighting the opening where “He's biking to work in, like, the coolest outfit...I will spend a whole movie with this guy.” (12:32)
  • Indecent Proposal: Used as an example of a “bad movie” elevated by Redford’s star power and surprising casting, pushing against his moral type: “It's just a fascinating use of a person whose entire stardom is the opposite of this character.” (19:30)

3. The Morality and Iconography of Redford

• Redford’s "WASP" Image & Integrity:
  Redford occupies a singular space: “He benefited from an entire history of, of a sort of blond, blue eyed iconography that made him seem like he could do anything. And at a moment in which the country has been falling apart for eight years, here's this guy who just is so calm and level headed...” (21:39)
• Moral Compass:
  Redford brought a sense of integrity to every role. “His characters always had some sort of compass that you trusted. And he never played characters that didn't have the compass that I can think of.” (11:05)

4. Redford Among His Peers: Who Else Could Be Gatsby?

• Comparisons to Contemporaries:
  • Contrasts Redford’s honorable image with Warren Beatty’s overt sexuality: “The difference is Warren Beatty always had that horny look to him. Right. Everyone was fair game at all times.” (22:38)
  • On the role of Gatsby: Only three actors in 50 years could convincingly play Gatsby: Redford, Leonardo DiCaprio, and Brad Pitt. (25:03)

5. Directorial Legacy and Aging Onscreen

• Redford as Director:
  Ordinary People, A River Runs Through It, and Quiz Show are highlighted as examples of strong, classic filmmaking. “It's a pretty good director.” (26:37)
• Aging and Honesty:
  Redford “letting time tell its story” as he refused to chase perpetual youth onscreen, contrasted to Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise:
  “But he seemed the exact age he was...he really did look old.” (37:03)

6. Above the Fold: Who Gets Front-Page Deaths?

• Signature Game:
  Morris and Simmons “play” their long-running “Above the Fold” game, debating which celebrities would merit a New York Times front-page obituary.
  • Obvious: Redford, Newman, Nicholson, Meryl Streep (“just the entire paper” 31:21), Barbra Streisand, DiCaprio, Tom Cruise, Denzel Washington (“Him and Meryl Streep are the paper.” 38:52), Julia Roberts.
  • On-the-Cusp: Warren Beatty ("he's right on the fringe." 31:10), Eddie Murphy.
  • Probably Not: Michael B. Jordan, Pedro Pascal, Shirley MacLaine.
• What Makes the Cut:
  It's not only longevity or box office—public persona, cultural influence, and “defining the culture” matter most.
  • On Michael B. Jordan: “He is not above the fold caliber yet, but I have faith. I'll buy your above the fold stock.” (32:41)

7. Do We Still Have Movie Stars?

• Structural Changes in Hollywood:
  The rise of streaming, IP-driven blockbusters, and prestige TV means fewer vehicles for stardom: “You need great parts for that...People aren't just...cranking out two, three a year anymore." (43:07)
• The Redford "Pipeline":
  Sundance’s importance in fostering new voices and diversity—without Redford, no Fruitvale Station or Michael B. Jordan as we know him.
• Current Hopefuls:
  Simmons points to Austin Butler, Timothée Chalamet ("I really like the bones of what he’s putting together..." 41:17), and Michael B. Jordan as potential heirs but admits the ecosystem no longer supports steady star-making.

8. Star Power Is a Two-Way Street

• Audience as Kingmakers:
  “They don't get to say who the movie stars are. We do. And if you're not making movies and taking risks on people being in them... then we'll never have the stars.” (46:18)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Butch & Sundance’s Magic:
  Bill Simmons: “It’s like we’re getting to hang out with two movie stars...Think about how many movies have tried to rip that off ever since.” (05:45)

• On Redford’s Moral Center:
  Wesley Morris: “Some of the things that make him such a great star are that he never wavered in embodying those things. Integrity, decency, honor, morality, justice. I mean, he was uncorruptible.” (11:08)

• On Elevating Bad Movies:
  Bill Simmons: “Even though we both love it. This should have been Richard Gere. This is a Richard Gere part...I just never, never bought that [Redford] was pervy enough to be the guy.” (19:10)

• On Movie Stardom’s Future:
  Wesley Morris: “Movie stardom is not [in good shape] and it needs some help. And one of the things it needs is more great to mediocre screenwriting to give these people something to do.” (45:32)

  Bill Simmons: “You need both [stars and voices].” (47:22)

• On Seeing a Star:
  Bill Simmons: “Stars are stars. You know it when you see it. It's like seeing a beautiful woman. It's like seeing a great house. It's like anything. You just kind of know.” (47:59)

• On Redford’s Facial Hair:
  Bill Simmons: “He had that strawberry, like, it was a unique color, but also the Jeremiah Johnson beard.” (48:38)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:03 – Morris on the “moms love Redford” test of stardom
• 05:14 – The impact of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
• 08:48 – The precision of Redford’s “straight man” in All the President’s Men
• 10:05 – Discussing The Natural’s iconic ending
• 11:08 – Redford’s unwavering moral compass as star-definer
• 12:32 – “Pure movie star gold” and Redford’s star presence in Three Days of the Condor
• 19:30 – The fascinating miscasting of Redford in Indecent Proposal
• 25:03 – Who else could play Gatsby: Redford, DiCaprio, Pitt
• 31:21 – “Meryl Streep is just the entire paper.”
• 38:52 – Denzel and Meryl: “are the paper” for the front page
• 41:17 – Timothée Chalamet’s prospects as a future movie star
• 43:07 – “People aren’t just cranking out two, three a year anymore”
• 46:18 – Audiences, not executives, determine movie stars
• 47:59 – “Stars are stars. You know it when you see it.”
• 48:38 – The importance of Redford’s facial hair in his stardom

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Overall Tone and Takeaways

Wesley Morris and Bill Simmons blend playful nostalgia and sharp critique, honoring Redford as the rare “true” movie star—handsome, moral, and emblematic of his era—while mourning the scarcity of such figures today. Through incisive film analysis and their signature banter, they underline how changing industry economics and shifting cultural values have made genuine stardom rare, but not impossible.
The conversation ultimately argues that while movies are—maybe—having a resurgence (“Movies are back!”), the phenomenon of the capital-M Movie Star remains fragile, always dependent on audiences’ affections, the right roles, and the ineffable “it” factor that made Redford a legend.

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For listeners seeking to understand why Robert Redford mattered, and why stardom today looks so different, this episode offers wit, warmth, and wisdom.

Transcript

[Podcast Narrator]

This podcast is supported by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, hosts Liz Ann Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist, and Cathy Jones, Schwab's chief fixed income strategist, along with their guests, analyze economic developments and bring context to conversations around stocks, fixed income, the economy, and more. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm Wesley Morris, and this is Cannonball. Today, we're gonna play a little game. Does Timothee Chalamet go above the fold? I spend an embarrassing amount of time thinking about movie stars. Movie stars, they're basically actors who we and our wallets have fallen in love with. I have fallen in love with my fair share, but I also love to study them because they can tell us a lot about who we think we are and how maybe we'd like to be. And ever since we started this show, I've wanted to talk to my friend Bill Simmons about this idea of who the movie star is, what it takes to make one, whether we even still have them. It's something he and I have been talking about pretty much for as long as we've known each other. And not infrequently, Robert Redford would be invoked as the definition of a movie star. Everybody's mom, including mine, loved this man. She paid good money to see him act. But I have no doubt that she'd have paid with a piece of her heart, too, which is kind of how, you know, he was a star. He could make a married woman feel real single. And then last month, Robert Redford died. So Bill and I were like, I think now is the time. Let's finally have another round of this conversation. But the Redford edition. Bill, welcome to Cannonball.

[Bill Simmons]

It's great to be here. We've known each other for almost 15 years, and I think we have talked about the concept of movie stardom more than any other topic. And Redford's the perfect guy to do this because we don't have Redfords anymore. They just don't exist.

[Wesley Morris]

They don't exist. But we'll come back to that. I want to start by asking some condolence questions. First of all, how's your mother's heart doing?

[Bill Simmons]

It's tough. My dad actually took this harder because Jeremiah Johnson's his favorite movie, and Redford was probably his favorite actor, had probably been in the most things that he liked, so he. He took this one hard. But my mom was upset, too, and she had the way we were Gatsby kind of side Gatsby. Oh yeah. That whole era.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, barefoot in the park before my time.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean. Cause my mom, I know, would definitely have been really beside herself and just sort of caught up in all her feelings. I don't know about my dad's relationship to River. I'm sure he thought he was cool. But my mother, I mean, I partially know who this man is because my mother loved him and she'd watch him in anything. Which is kind of how you know somebody's a star.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. My mom really liked him. But as you know with my mom, she likes that slightly seedy. She wants something dirty side. Gere was her guy.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Drunk Newman get right Gere or Newman and slap shot. Gere was like Redford after three drinks with maybe some sort of police record in the background. But. But yeah, I mean, fundamentally we just don't have Redfords anymore. And when just he's one of those things. His career was so long and he did so many cool things that you kind of forget how many good movies he made.

[Wesley Morris]

I didn't discover him. I mean, he was an ambient presence. I think I might have seen him first probably at the 86 Academy Awards, not even as himself, but just in clips for out of Africa, which is, you know, that was the big best picture winner of that year.

[Bill Simmons]

The winner is out of Africa.

[Wesley Morris]

He's the leading man in this love story between him and Meryl Streep. Doesn't it matter to you that I'm another man's wife?

[Movie Clip Characters]

No, what matters to me is that you tried so hard.

[Bill Simmons]

It's not a very good movie.

[Wesley Morris]

It is not. But that's the first time I saw him. And I remember thinking, I don't know who this movie is taking all these Color Purple Oscars, but this blond, blue eyed white man is definitely speaking to like 10 year old, 9 year old me in these clips. Oh. So let's just think about like. I just want to think about like there like three movies that kind of like epitomize an aspect of the thing that made him him. I don't know if you have three, if they. You can reduce this career to three films.

[Bill Simmons]

But I do.

[Wesley Morris]

What is one that you like? What's a great, for example, for Redford?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you have to start with Sundance. You've never met a pair like Butch.

[Wesley Morris]

And Sundance.

[Bill Simmons]

Because Sundance vaults him to a different level. It's one of the most famous biggest movies of the 70s. It pulls him up after that movie. He is now on a different plane. And it's a. It's just a charisma role. Like he's super fucking handsome in that movie. He really is. Like, he looks great. Newman looks great. He looks great. You believe that. They're friends. They have this banter back and forth that the thing to remember when we.

[Movie Clip Characters]

Don'T tell me how to rob a bank. I know how to rob a bank.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, it almost feels like the first modern buddy cop movie. Even though they're not cops, they're the bad guys. But the way they interact, I think has been stolen for the next 55 years. And he's just a movie star. It's like just we're getting to hang out with two movie stars and think about how many movies have tried to rip that off ever since like, even Ocean's Eleven. It's like, let's just get some famous good looking movie stars together and we'll give them stuff to do. It all starts with that movie, which is still awesome. It's a great rewatch even now.

[Wesley Morris]

It's funny because he and Newman are so different. They're differently beautiful. You know, Newman's a decade older and in many ways there's a kind of protege mentor relationship happening. The two times, you know, the first two times they worked together in this movie and then. Right. And then the sting in the Sting and you know, you notice that Newman twinkles and Redford shines. Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, that's a good way to put it. So Newman had the twinkle in his eye. Newman was funnier. Newman was more charismatic and Redford had that kind of smoldering. If we actually have to follow somebody in a battle for some reason, I might be following this guy.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Not like the cool guy, but that the. I think it's really unusual for two movie stars to cook like that. It certainly doesn't happen very often. Well, that ought to do it.

[Movie Clip Characters]

Think here's enough dynamite there.

[Bill Simmons]

Butch Redford's funny in that movie. Redford's not funny. He doesn't really ever play characters that have a sense of humor. He's always like the straight man or the counterpuncher. But I think he's funny. In Butch.

[Wesley Morris]

Do you have another movie that you think is like something that just like epitomizes some aspect of, of, of Redford as, as both a star and as the, the star that he was.

[Bill Simmons]

For me, it's three. We mentioned Butch and Sundance. All the President's Men.

[Wesley Morris]

Sure.

[Bill Simmons]

How much can you tell me about Deep Throat?

[Movie Clip Characters]

How much do you need to know?

[Bill Simmons]

You trust him?

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's funny, I don't think it's. I know it's like it won the Oscar for best writing, but I think in the wrong hands, that's a pretty forgettable character because he's plays it close to the vest. He's doing a lot of like kind of reading his surroundings. He's in a garage with Deep Throat, Follow the Money.

[Movie Clip Characters]

What do you mean?

[Wesley Morris]

Where? I can't tell you that.

[Movie Clip Characters]

But you could tell me that like.

[Bill Simmons]

Those scenes shouldn't be as good as they are. Everything he's doing with his eyes and his body. And you believe that he's like a fledgling reporter, that he's not quite made it yet, that he's a little inexperienced, but you also believe that he can save the day. He's trying to play off Hoffman, he's playing off all these great actors. And I just think, I think those parts don't get enough credit for how hard they are.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, when I've heard you talk about this movie, you. I sometimes wonder, but never think to ask, like, is there, do you identify with Dustin Hoffman who plays Carl Bernstein, or Redford who's playing Bob Woodward?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, you know, I don't remember when I first started watching that movie, but my first big Watergate phase was in college. And that's when, ever since then I've been watching it ever since I was always on the, on the Redford side of that movie because of the scene which is one of the better scenes of his career when he's putting the copy in and then Hoffman's coming over and grabbing it and taking it. And then Redford finally confronts him and he's like, here, here's all my work.

[Movie Clip Characters]

You're gonna do it, do it right.

[Wesley Morris]

Here's my notes.

[Movie Clip Characters]

If you're gonna hype it, hype it with the facts. I don't mind what you did. I mind the way you did it.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't mind what you did. I just don't like how you did it. And just like gave him the skull. And I was like, I'm in on this guy. If they, if, if I have to pick, I'm in with him.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

So that would be two. And then the natural would be my third one. Don't you remember signing a contract?

[Movie Clip Characters]

Yeah, I remember signing a contract to play ball. Not to be put to sleep by some 2 bit Carney hypnotist.

[Wesley Morris]

I won't do that. You're going down.

[Movie Clip Characters]

It took me a long time to get here, Pop.

[Bill Simmons]

I won't do it.

[Movie Clip Characters]

I can't. I came here to play ball.

[Bill Simmons]

It's got one of the best endings. He hits a home run that makes the lights explode and then has a catch with his bastard son in a cornfield.

[Wesley Morris]

That home run at the end of that movie is one of the great.

[Bill Simmons]

Ridiculous endings, the best sports movie ending.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, let me. I want to sit with this for a second.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

That scene really speaks to these iconic aspects of Redford or these characteristic traits. Right. Um, the. Some of the things that are important to understanding what kind of movie star he was have a lot to do with these principles that he embodied. It's funny. Cause some of the things that. That make him such a great star are that he never wavered in embodying those things. Integrity, decency, honor, morality, justice. I mean, he was uncorruptible. Like, his characters were uncorruptible. They were in pursuit of the truth.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I was gonna say moral compass.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

His characters always had some sort of compass that you trusted. And he never played characters that didn't have the compass that I can think of.

[Wesley Morris]

So my. I'm gonna just. I'll. I'll go through three things really fast.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. What are your three?

[Wesley Morris]

I would say Three Days of the Condor is a movie that I would definitely offer as the epitome of what a movie star does. Redford's own good taste in scripts, directors, and then all the things he's working with. Sidney Pollock on this movie. This is 1975.

[Movie Clip Characters]

This is Joe Turner.

[Wesley Morris]

Identification? My name is Turner. I work for you. Now. Listen.

[Bill Simmons]

Identify yourself.

[Wesley Morris]

What is your designation? Condor. This movie's a big hit, and I can't really describe what it's about, but basically, Redford is a. Is a CIA bookworm.

[Bill Simmons]

Guys, bring me in, please.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm not a field agent. I just read books. Who finds out that the team he'd been working on has all been assassinated and they missed one person. Him. And, well, he.

[Bill Simmons]

Wesley. He saw something he shouldn't have seen.

[Wesley Morris]

Welcome to 1970s movie making.

[Bill Simmons]

The paranoia that's the premise of every movie from 1974-77.

[Wesley Morris]

But the opening five minutes are what I would describe as, like, pure movie star gold. Which. Do you remember what the opening credit sequence is when we get introduced to him? He. He's on a bike.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

He's biking to work in, like, the coolest outfit. And I'm just like, I will spend a whole movie with this guy. I don't know what's Gonna happen. But he's so charming. I'll do it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

But this amazing thing happens, and I'm just gonna do a little role playing with you right now. And I just want you to sit with me for a second.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And just. I'd want you to just be a person. Let's just say you're out in the world. You're buying some ski equipment.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Wesley Morris]

And you're going on a trip. You're gonna go meet your man up in Vermont for the weekend. And you're just like. You're shopping, you're doing your thing. You just paid. Yeah. And you're getting into the car, which is parked on a very obvious street in broad daylight, and this very handsome man comes up to you and he's like, hey, I recognize you. Nice to see you again. Where have you been? Here, let me give you a hand.

[Podcast Narrator]

But wait, wait a minute.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't know. This man is putting a gun in your waist. Get in the car. Don't make a sound. Don't be dumb. And it's telling you to get. Get in the car. Get in the car right now. And you get in the car and he drives. Just. You wind up taking him back to your place, and he roughs you up a little bit. What size are you? What are you, a clown? I'm scared.

[Deborah Kamin]

So am I.

[Wesley Morris]

What are you scared for? You've got the gun.

[Movie Clip Characters]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

And he wants to know if you're gonna help him figure out what the hell happened to his team. And how are you gonna do it? The question is, do you call the cops or do you spend your weekend that you had planned ski up in Vermont with your actual man? Do you throw all that out the window to help Robert Redford defeat the CIA?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, that's the answer. But then I would add this caveat, too. I'm gonna fall in love.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, we are gonna. And also, if there's an offer to do it at the hour. Mark. Yeah. Do you take it?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Hey, we've spent 10 hours together and you had a gun on me. But what are you doing later? Should we see a movie? Yeah, but that's the kind of thing when you're.

[Wesley Morris]

When you're.

[Bill Simmons]

Handsome and charismatic, you can get away with it.

[Wesley Morris]

This is Fade Dunaway, another of the 70s biggest stars in three days of the Condor. And I just want to tell you what kind of environment we are dealing with with Robert Redford's morality. At some point she says, you know, you roughed me up. That gun gives you the right to rough Me up. It doesn't give you the right to ask me. I rough you up. And he's like, I'm sorry. Did I rape you? Have I raped you? And she goes, the night is young. The night is young. This is before they do it. Wow. And the crazy thing about that line is she says that, and he is instantly wounded, like, oh, my God. This is what you. This is the thing.

[Bill Simmons]

You think I'm a monster.

[Wesley Morris]

This situation has led me to make a woman think that I'd be capable of something like that. I need to sit down next to her and let her know that I am not that man.

[Movie Clip Characters]

You don't believe anything I've said, do you?

[Wesley Morris]

I believe you're in trouble. That movie is fascinating for all kinds of reasons, but it's such a great use of him. I think part of what that movie's doing for me is just giving you a movie star as a movie star. It is saying, you know, this movie could be about anything. But the reason I paid to come is just to, like, spend time with this person that I like to see. This is a movie.

[Bill Simmons]

And as you know, I wish more actors just made movies like, this doesn't work anymore.

[Wesley Morris]

It doesn't happen. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like Will Smith, an Enemy of the state. Just like, uh, oh, somebody switched my wallet. Now I got it. I'm gonna be killed.

[Wesley Morris]

But if memory serves, that movie is missing. A Will Smith gets to the office on a bicycle moment. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. What you need is just time alone with the star for a minute just before the plot kicks in. Yeah. The other thing I would say I would spend some time with the Natural, too. The Natural is great because it is a movie. It's like a classic Hollywood drama in a lot of ways. It's doing things that you hire a movie star to do. It's entirely built around him. It doesn't work without him. And then I would. I would. Because I like the idea of, like, choosing movie stars, bad movies, to prove that they're still stars. And so I would also pick a decent proposal.

[Bill Simmons]

Thank you. I was waiting. I knew I left this one for you because I knew you would bring it up, because we both love this movie.

[Wesley Morris]

Suppose.

[Movie Clip Characters]

I were to offer you $1.

[Wesley Morris]

Million.

[Movie Clip Characters]

For one night with your wife.

[Wesley Morris]

This is a movie about two people who are desperate for money.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And in order to get their cash rate, try to bet it all in Vegas and wind up running into this guy. I'm gonna get the exact plot details wrong, but basically, they come across this millionaire who's like, you know what I like to do? I'll make your dreams come true if you, in exchange for this million dollars, let me have your wife, who's played by Demi Moore. Woody Harrelson is the husband and Demi Moore is the wife.

[Bill Simmons]

You missed the big dice roll scene, though. She's rolling the dice for him. He's winning money. That's how. That's how it's on. Woody's not even in there. He's at, like, a poker table.

[Wesley Morris]

It is quite a terrible movie where it doesn't matter terribly great how bad it is, because there's a greatness driving it anyway. And part of the greatness is the nerve of it. Right? Like, this is a movie that is asking the question, would you accept a million dollars for a night with Robert? Would you. Would you prostitute yourself to Robert Redford for a million dollars? I mean.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, I wouldn't, but would you not?

[Wesley Morris]

Would you really not, Bill?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the thing is, though, with this movie, this was such an unusual choice for him.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And I think they overpaid him as part of it, but it was like, whoa, he's gonna be in this. He never does stuff like this. And at dance was going. And it just. It was almost, like, fascinating to go to the theater just to see how they would handle the Redford piece of it.

[Wesley Morris]

But what is the thing that you think that he would never do this movie? Right, right. But what about, like, just the premise alone or the fact that he's the guy making this? Like, I mean, I'm gonna say.

[Bill Simmons]

But let's. Let's be honest, though. This is one of the reasons the movie didn't totally work. Even though we both love it. This should have been Richard Gere. This is a Richard Gere part when he's all about, I'm a fucking paying.

[Wesley Morris]

Women for whatever time he wanted to spend with them.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. You and I both. We both love the Richard Gere who's in Internal Affairs. We like the dirty Richard Gere.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, my God.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, taking a phone call while he's getting ridden by somebody's sister. And. And that's what this movie. Redford. I just never, never bought that he was pervy enough to be the guy.

[Wesley Morris]

No, no. It's just a fascinating use of a person whose entire stardom is the opposite of this character. Right. And so it tricks you into believing in some way that the moral energies are actually not with Demi Moore and Woody Harrelson, whose lives get turned upside down by this decision, and they're actually with the. The the sleaze bag. Redford, who makes the offer.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, the irony of that movie is she should have stayed with Redford. They were a better couple. That was the life she should have had. Like, you're watching, like, just fucking get rid of Woody. Get him out of there.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, no, I mean, it's really, really, really, really true.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he was, I talked about this on my pod, about him just how, how smartly he picked roles with the things he could and couldn't do.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, yes.

[Bill Simmons]

He's usually going to be charming guy, hero, somebody trying to topple the system. There were certain touch points that he was going to do. I thought it was really interesting that he didn't want to be in the Verdict because he thought the guy was too much of a loser.

[Wesley Morris]

Famous story.

[Bill Simmons]

And was trying to make, trying to make them rewrite it and make him less of a loser. And they're like, the guy is a loser. That's the whole point of the movie. He's like, well, I'm out.

[Wesley Morris]

I can't do it.

[Bill Simmons]

This is a big thing for him. He's like, I'm a movie star. I play winners, I play heroes. That's what I do.

[Wesley Morris]

But I mean, the thing about Redford that's fascinating to me is that he came around at the exact right moment.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

I think part of his appeal is that he arrives as a star at the beginning of the Nixon era and that whole period between Watergate, the war, the collapse of the civil rights movement, there's just all kinds of social and political unrest. The President just doesn't seem right in some way. And eventually we'd learn how wrong he was.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know. I still like him.

[Wesley Morris]

That's a different show. Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

That was a joke.

[Wesley Morris]

You're, you're kidding. But I think there's something. Part of the appeal of him was that he, he seemed presidential. Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

He benefited from an entire history of, of a sort of blond, blue eyed iconography that made him seem like he could do anything. And at a moment in which the country has been falling apart for eight years, here's this guy who just is so calm and level headed, doesn't lose it and is really on the side of all the people that in the Nixon administration's case, the Nixon administration wants to crush. Right. The narratives are aligned with what we would learn were Redford's priorities. But I don't know, he just was the perfect star for that period to me.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I like this thought of putting him in context with the other great People from that decade, because it was such a great decade for movie stars, him and Warren Beatty could have switched roles in. In a few of the movies, right?

[Wesley Morris]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

The difference is Warren Beatty always had that horny look to him. Right. Everyone was fair game at all times at a Warren Beatty movie, and he was just had. There was a general horniness. Like. The difference is Redford would. Would kiss his co star. Probably not go for the tongue on the kiss. Right. Just traditional, respectful kiss.

[Wesley Morris]

Whereas that mouth stays Warren Beatty's.

[Bill Simmons]

That tongue's coming out. He's like, I got to test out this actress, See what's going on here. And he was just like. He was the seedier version of.

[Wesley Morris]

Of.

[Bill Simmons]

Of Redford and, you know, kind of like a blend of Newman and. And Redford in some ways.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, it's interesting that, like, for as sexy as Beatty wanted to be in the movies and was Redford really. He was paired with women, but it was more about a. Like a. Them sharing the frame together more than it was you actually watching him go. Go to sleep with somebody.

[Deborah Kamin]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It was an arrangement, right? Yeah, But. But Warren Beatty couldn't have been Jeremiah Johnson in a million years, and I'm not sure he could have been Sundance either.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. I mean, like. Well, here's. Here's who would have been around him during this period? Robert De Niro, Al Pacino.

[Bill Simmons]

De Niro's young, though. De Niro, Pacino are a little younger. Like, Nicholson is really, I think, more of a peer. Right? Nicholson. McQueen.

[Wesley Morris]

Jack Nicholson. Steve McQueen. John Voight.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, John Voight.

[Wesley Morris]

Burt Reynolds.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, alpha. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Burt Reynolds. Way more alpha than Redford. Like, Redford's not gonna be in Deliverance every.

[Wesley Morris]

No, no, no.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, no, he's not doing it.

[Wesley Morris]

You think the material. The material would have been too dark for him.

[Bill Simmons]

He wouldn't have done it. It's too dark.

[Wesley Morris]

I do think that, like, the thing that. That Redford, he benefited from the era. He benefited from being like, the only. The only identifiable, like, textbook definition of a wasp. Wasp. The movies really had to offer in terms of men. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, who else is playing Great Gatsby, right?

[Wesley Morris]

Nobody. Nobody. What.

[Bill Simmons]

What actor? Like, maybe Jon Voight, but I don't even know if Jon Voight could. Could have done it.

[Wesley Morris]

No. And I don't think he doesn't. Jon Voight looks like he comes from somewhere.

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Like, he's. Like, he's actually. His background was a little rougher than maybe he's letting on.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. Redford looks like he could have come from anywhere in the United States, really. Just pick a. Pick a state.

[Bill Simmons]

So how many people could have been Gatsby? Because that's a fun game. Because I think it's only three in the last 50 plus years.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, one of. One of the people I would. I would offer played Gatsby.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. So there's two linear.

[Wesley Morris]

Leonardo DiCaprio played Gatsby in the Bos Lurman version.

[Bill Simmons]

And there's one more, I think.

[Wesley Morris]

Is it the obvious person?

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's pit. I think those three.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, that's the obvious person. Yes. Okay. Those are your three options.

[Bill Simmons]

And then if we move toward, like, could Clooney have been great Gatsby? I'm not buying it.

[Wesley Morris]

No, I mean, because the thing about Gatsby, the genius of the book, is where you find out where Gatsby is from. So he kind of has to be persuasively from San Francisco, but also from some other place that you would never know unless Nick Carraway was your friend whispering in your ear. So I think the thing that you benefit from is just a kind of ambiguity because, you know, it's funny, he's not an everyman, but he is like someone that people would look up to and aspire. I mean, you said it yourself, you'd follow him into battle, right? Yeah. He does have these leadership qualities that are really interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

I would also trust him with my wife or girlfriend in a movie. Whereas Warren Beatty.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm not.

[Bill Simmons]

You're not getting along for three minutes. Nicholson. No way. Like, there's certain ones. Whereas Redford had, like. There was always that honorable sense to him.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you think part of the problem in the 80s and 90s is that he started directing and we didn't talk about that. Like, he's a really good director.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, yes.

[Bill Simmons]

If you just give any director Ordinary People, River Runs through it and Quiz show, and you're like, these are the three best movies director X made. You'd be like, yeah, it's a pretty good director.

[Wesley Morris]

It's a pretty good director. Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And, you know, it's worth saying that, like, the. The kind of movies that he both directed and starred in were not movies. You know, it's just like a class of movie that no longer exists.

[Bill Simmons]

Do you think he should have played the dad in Ordinary People instead of Donald Sutherland?

[Wesley Morris]

Great question. I don't think it. I don't think he would have. I don't know. It's because if we wound up directing himself and I don't think it really. I Don't think maybe he should have. But he wound. You know, eventually he starts. I think maybe the Horse Whisperer is the first one that he stars in that he directs.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, as you know, I don't know how anybody directs a movie. And also accident. I think that's, like, fucking crazy. It's like an NBA player coaching a playoff game and being the best part of the team. Like, Bill Russell did that in 1969, but, like, doing it now and, like, having to handle the timeouts and then going like.

[Wesley Morris]

It's just.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know how anyone would do that.

[Wesley Morris]

All right, we're going to take a break, and I don't know, when we come back, I kind of want to revisit a. A game that you and I have played over the years and applied in the wake of Robert Redford's death.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm excited.

[Wesley Morris]

We'll be right back.

[Mont Blanc Narrator]

Mont Blanc invites you to use life's quiet moments to pause, reflect, and put pen to paper.

[Wesley Morris]

Chapter one.

[Mont Blanc Narrator (Alternate Voice)]

Oh, no, no, no, no.

[Wesley Morris]

Part one. Mmm. Perfect. The mountains are impressive.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I wish you were here to see them.

[Podcast Narrator]

Dear diary, meet my new writing companion.

[Mont Blanc Narrator]

The meister stuck for every journey, the perfect companion awaits.

[Bill Simmons]

Montblanc.

[Mont Blanc Narrator]

Let's write. Visit montblanc.com for exquisitely crafted writing instruments, leather goods, and more.

[Mont Blanc Narrator (Alternate Voice)]

Hey, hold up. This is your minute. It's your minute in this life, on this day. It's your day to play, to play, to make, to move, to move through, to explore. It's your morning to share, your weekend, to shape, to cook, to soak, to listen to, to wait. It's your body to rest, to nourish, to grow. It's your mind. You know, it's your place, your country, your life. To love, to rise, to dream, to change. It's your world as much as anyone's. It's your world to understand the New York Times. Find out [e-mail] yourworld.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay, we're back. Me and you, Bill, we're talking about Robert Redford.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I was really struck by a particular aspect of his death, which is, you know, I read the newspaper every day, read the New York Times in print. I look at other newspapers digitally, but the one that I feel with my two hands every day is the New York Times. I live in New York City, and I was surprised to see. Not surprised. I wasn't surprised at all. It felt right. His obituary was on the front page and above the fold. It begins above the fold.

[Bill Simmons]

Wow.

[Wesley Morris]

And I don't know if you Remember this? But I mean, you remember because we've come back to it over the years, but this game started. What I don't know if you remember is when we started doing it. Who gets a front page death? And where does it go? I'm gonna reduce this game to above the fold. And it started the day that Prince died. And we're like, that's an above the fold death. Yeah. But I'm curious now, like, who among us, like, I mean, what is it? Well, first of all, like, what would it be about Redford that would make him one of these, like, extra, extra deaths?

[Bill Simmons]

So Redford, Newman, Nicholson, I think those three have endured. I don't think Reynolds did in the same way. Even though in the 70s, it felt like he was neck and neck with those guys for a couple years.

[Wesley Morris]

Definitely commercially.

[Bill Simmons]

Clint Eastwood, no question.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Uh, Warren Beatty, I think.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, yes.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, I do.

[Wesley Morris]

Interesting.

[Bill Simmons]

He's right on the fringe, though. It's a good argument. Like, if he was below the fold, I wouldn't be shocked. But I think if it's a slower news day, you're putting him over.

[Wesley Morris]

If it's a slow news day, you're definitely putting him over.

[Bill Simmons]

Meryl Streep is just the entire paper. There's just no other stories on the front page.

[Wesley Morris]

All right, wait, I've got a little. I've got a little New York Times mug here. I'm just going to pull some names out.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Wesley Morris]

Meryl Streep, definitely. The whole paper.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, yeah, just. That's it. There's no sports, weather, anything.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, we'll deal with that when it's time. But I mean, I'm curious. I'd be. I really want to talk about that, but I'm just going to. Oh, here's one. Barbra Streisand.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Above the fold.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm not putting that out there. I just want it known my queen is going to live forever above the fold. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

She was Taylor Swift for 10 years. Everyone's like, this Taylor Swift thing. It's never happened before. It's like it happened and I'm sorry.

[Wesley Morris]

Talk about eras. I mean. Yeah, I mean, the hairhead eras. Here we go. Leonardo DiCaprio.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Well, because it would be surprising, too, because he's younger.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

But I mean, let's just up and. Like right now. But yeah, at the end of his career, 100%.

[Wesley Morris]

Let's just pretend everybody's, like, 100 years old.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, great. I'm glad we're going to be around.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, we'll be around. So Tom Cruise.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, yeah. Come on. These are all easy.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm picking out what's it. But, you know, sometimes. Okay, here we go. You ready?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Michael B. Jordan.

[Bill Simmons]

He is not above the fold caliber yet, but I have faith. I'll buy your above the fold stock.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm not arguing that these people. I'm with you. I mean, I didn't even know, you know, there's a rail that runs at the bottom of the paper. Is he going in the rail box? Right? Like, he's probably a, you know, come to a 12, come to a 16 to read about Michael B. Jordan's life. Yeah, I'm.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm betting on his next 10 years. I think Sinners was important for him.

[Wesley Morris]

I do, too.

[Bill Simmons]

But I really thought he was great in it.

[Wesley Morris]

The question is, what happens now? Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Because right now he doesn't have it.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. I mean, he needs. But this is the thing, because, Bill, I feel a little nuts for offering this, but he is. I mean, he's got real Redford energy. To me. Yeah, but what he doesn't have is a Butch and Sundance. He doesn't have a sting.

[Bill Simmons]

They don't make those movies anymore, though. Like, he tried a couple times, a couple different versions of it. He needs, you know, like, I think there's a great sports movie he could have made that he hasn't made yet. He tried to do the legal movie. It didn't happen.

[Wesley Morris]

It's not Creed.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm saying beyond creed, like some sort of. Like, he's a basketball player at the end of his career, one of those kind of movies. Or he's, you know, football, quarterback, something, somebody near the end of their career.

[Wesley Morris]

You're identifying a really important aspect of Redford. You've said it. But now I want to sort of, like, put a frame around it, which is like the end of the career part. Like so many of these roles that Redford had, he was probably. He was definitely too old for them.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, this was a Redford thing where he was a little too old for the part, which is something that did not stop him multiple times, including most famously in the Natural, when the first 15 minutes of the movie. He's supposed to be 18 years old, but he's like 47 in real life. He didn't care. He's like, I'm handsome. I'll get away with it.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, definitely too old. But they're like something about, like a real star definition is, do we care that this person is too old?

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, I care with Cruz, I Thought he was too old for the last Mission Impossible. I thought it took me out of the movie. I just thought he was too. I thought he looked too old and was trying too hard to make it seem like he wasn't in his mid-60s.

[Wesley Morris]

So, I mean, what is a good solve for this? To just like make movies where you're.

[Bill Simmons]

Playing a guy in your mid-60s? How about that idea?

[Wesley Morris]

But wait, is there. There's no world in which 60 year old Ethan Hunt is just refusing to like, let it go and give it up?

[Bill Simmons]

Cruz is like 64.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Or 63. I think he's 63. But I'm just saying there's no world in which that guy.

[Bill Simmons]

You're not jumping off helicopters and doing that shit anymore. You're just not.

[Wesley Morris]

But I think the whole point is that he thinks he can.

[Bill Simmons]

Fine, I'm not in. No, thanks. Thanks for the run.

[Wesley Morris]

Pedro Pascal. No way.

[Bill Simmons]

Come on.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, I'm picking out what's in the cup. But I mean, it's interesting because I think part of the Pedro Pascal question is again, it's Michael B. Jordan related, which is like, what are the parts, what are the roles that this guy is gonna get that are gonna make you, that are gonna define the culture, change the way we think of an art form? And I don't know, you need great parts for that.

[Bill Simmons]

He's too old. It would have happened already.

[Wesley Morris]

All right. Brad Pitt.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. I think the last two big movies he had pushed him over.

[Wesley Morris]

He's above the fold or below the fold.

[Bill Simmons]

I do. Plus the Brangelina relationship. I think he's above the fold.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, the public life.

[Bill Simmons]

The public life. Yeah. He's so famous.

[Wesley Morris]

A tabloid figure. Yes, yes. And is really, you know, defines modern fame in some. Yeah, I mean, that's fair.

[Bill Simmons]

Also, every few years he's had a monster movie, like Monster going back to the 90s, which is not true for Redford. Not true for Redford. But we left out one thing. It's. It's slightly mean to talk about, but Redford, as he aged because he was in the sun so much, he just didn't have the same looks after a while.

[Wesley Morris]

No, that's true.

[Bill Simmons]

From a look standpoint, he probably peaked mid-80s or not peaked, but that was kind of the last run, and then.

[Wesley Morris]

I'd say mid-90s, mid-90s.

[Bill Simmons]

But I think when he got older, he really did look old.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

And Brad Pitt's in his 60s in F1, and you have no idea how old he is. He looks like he could be like 40.

[Wesley Morris]

But I think that there's something to the honesty.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Of Redford letting time tell its story.

[Bill Simmons]

But he seemed the exact age he was. So if you put Redford in his early mid-60s, in F1, I just don't think people are buying it because they've been like, there's no way this guy's a race car driver. He's in his 60s.

[Wesley Morris]

That's a great point. But then he's not doing F1. He's doing, like, he's doing all his loss, where he's much older than 60s.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

But, like, that is a great use of letting time tell your story on your face for you.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

And it really works for him in that movie. Okay, here's. This is gonna be deep, Bill. Ready?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Julia Roberts.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, definitely over the folds.

[Wesley Morris]

Speak.

[Bill Simmons]

America's sweetheart.

[Wesley Morris]

All right. Also a mold, right? Like a mold that got broken, but nobody told these executives that it broke.

[Bill Simmons]

They tried to duplicate her for 20 years.

[Wesley Morris]

They're still trying. It's crazy.

[Bill Simmons]

They duplicated her with people that I like. Like, I love Amanda Pete, but she was never able to get to Julia Roberts level.

[Wesley Morris]

She's not Julia Roberts. It's just not. It's. It's. Why are we trying. I love Amanda Pete, too. All right, here, we'll do. We'll do two more. Shirley Mlan.

[Bill Simmons]

I think that's below. I think she's lost some of her juice. Just as. As everyone's gotten older. It's interesting. He didn't have Chalamet.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, he might be in here. All right, we'll get. We'll get to Chalamet. I know he's in here.

[Bill Simmons]

Denzel is the whole paper.

[Wesley Morris]

Denzel Washington.

[Mont Blanc Narrator (Alternate Voice)]

Him and.

[Bill Simmons]

Him and Meryl Streep are the paper.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, ha. Perfect Bill. Perfect Bill.

[Bill Simmons]

Eddie.

[Wesley Morris]

Eddie Murphy. Oh, you're thinking. You are thinking.

[Bill Simmons]

He is for me. I do wonder. If you're under 30. Do you care as much?

[Wesley Morris]

Great question. Yes, you do. I mean, this is one of those occasions where the obituary makes you care. Right. This is one of those things where the minute he dies, the memories change. It's a really. No.

[Bill Simmons]

You know what he is. Cause especially, like, as a black actor and comedian during a time when we didn't have any black actors or comedians in a mainstream anything. You know, he has to be.

[Wesley Morris]

He was it for 10 years. You know, I mean, it went. Sidney Poitier, this kind of, like, Lull in the 1970s. Eddie Murphy, he changes everything, for better and for worse for black actors in Hollywood, in terms of both what they could do for proving that people would pay money to see us do anything over and over and over again. And also didn't. Didn't change who he was in order to make that money. He was always fully him. He was a classic movie star. He was gonna be him and, you know, a bunch of other people that he would impersonate in these movies over and over again.

[Bill Simmons]

That should be my next Cannonball appearance is just Eddie Murphy in the 80s. Just us breaking it down.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, my God, don't make me cry. Well, I'll do it.

[Bill Simmons]

So many good YouTube clips from that era, even, like, him going on Johnny Carson and some of the weird societal shit that's in some of those interviews where he's like, what are you going to do with all your money? You're making so much money. Like, the inference being like, you're definitely going to blow this. Let me help you. And it's. It's. I don't know. There's a lot going on.

[Wesley Morris]

And his answers to those questions are. Are amazing. Like.

[Bill Simmons]

Like, well, he took it personally. He's like, what? Yeah, I have money. Like, what do you. What do you think I'm going to do? Like, buy a pile of cocaine and then drive my Lamborghini over it? Like, I'll be fine.

[Wesley Morris]

I think I love this. Spending an hour just, like, looking at Eddie Murphy on talk shows is.

[Bill Simmons]

Love it.

[Wesley Morris]

Put a pin in that bill.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, thank you.

[Wesley Morris]

One more. Because we. I mean, I thought he was in here, but he's not. Timothee Chalamet. Let's just do him anyway. What happens to 100-year-old Timothee Chalamet?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I think this is a projection on what his career is going to be, but I really like the bones of what he's putting together and the choices that he's making. And I think he's learned the lessons from some of these great people from the past. I think his heart's in the right place, and I think he gets it. So I would assume he's headed that way.

[Wesley Morris]

I hope so. I hope he. You know, I would love to see him get on all the President's Men or a Three Days of the Condor or a Sting. I mean, he'd be great in something like. Like a Sting.

[Bill Simmons]

He needs a Three Days of the Condor. I'm just in trouble for an hour and a half kind of movie. Like, not nothing. No Great Expectations. But I mean, right now, like, with. With everything that's going on in the world, like, the. The time is ripe for people to start making movies about this stuff.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. But I think that, like, what you and I are talking about right now is a kind of proof of. I mean, it's kind of getting to this question of, like, whether we even have movie stars anymore. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, when did I write that piece for Grantlin? That.

[Wesley Morris]

2011. Yeah. Or, like, 2012. But, yeah, I know the one. It's the one where you basically complain that people have got the wrong idea about who a movie star is right now.

[Bill Simmons]

It was. And one of the people I said it on was Ryan Reynolds and how Hollywood was trying to make Ryan Reynolds a thing, and none of the movies were working. And it's like, I don't know if this is a thing or not, but you're positioning him like he is, and it hasn't happened yet. And then eventually it kind of happened.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a couple people now that I think have a puncher's chance. Like, Austin Butler's got something.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay. I did see Caught Stealing and think, yeah, this is it.

[Bill Simmons]

I think he has. He has something. Chalamet obviously has. Whatever. I think MBJ has it. Like, he clearly has it.

[Wesley Morris]

But these people, they need at bats. Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Right. But we don't make movies like that anymore. People aren't just. They're not cranking out two, three a year anymore.

[Wesley Morris]

And, you know, the thing we have not talked about with Redford that's important to say here is that, you know, a lot of what his legacy, like, one of the things that enshrines him above the fold is the Sundance piece of it. Right. Yeah. You know, he. Through the Sundance Film Festival, is the figurehead and visionary of an entire way of thinking about American moviemaking that gives many, many. We don't have a Michael B. Jordan in the way that we know him without Robert Redford, as it turns out, because of the Sundance Film Festival. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Ryan Coogler's Fruitvale Station premieres there.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

I just think that, you know, with his death. His death is happening at a moment in which the thing he, you know, he shepherded into existence that is also kind of teetering in some way.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I'm going the other way. It's coming back.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, speak to me.

[Bill Simmons]

Movies are back.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

Movies are good.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm not saying that. Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm pleased with movies.

[Wesley Morris]

Are you pulling my leg right now?

[Bill Simmons]

I am. I think this is a good movie year.

[Wesley Morris]

This is a good movie year. But this is like saying, oh, well, the planet's getting warmer, but. But 2025, it. It was just below the hottest year on record.

[Bill Simmons]

Movies are back.

[Wesley Morris]

All right, but what do you mean when you say that, though? I mean, because we're definitely getting fewer movies.

[Bill Simmons]

Movies like Weapons and Sinners to me is like, you know, we're still doing conjuring and shit like that, and people are going to go see those. And it is what it is. But the fact that we could have Weapons and Sinners and this Paul Thomas Anderson movie coming out, and I don't.

[Wesley Morris]

Know, I would just say. I mean, if. If the movies are back and they're in good shape, I would say movie stardom is not. And it needs some help. And one of the things it needs is more great to mediocre screenwriting to give these people something to do. Right. We'll pay to see it. You just have to give it to us and you have to retrain us to want to see a person like Robert Redford work, you know, three times a year, two times a year, you. If you build it, they will come, right?

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, yeah, but that's an ins. You're talking about incentivizing the people who create that ip. And TV is a great incentivizer right now. Right.

[Wesley Morris]

More than the movies are saying, yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

If you're Taylor Sheridan, you know, he made.

[Wesley Morris]

What was that?

[Bill Simmons]

Wind River. Yeah, it's on Netflix. Right? He did that. He started making TV shows. Guess what? Way more money in the TV shows. And he's gonna use his voice, his vision. He's gonna steer it toward trying to create all these different TV things. Brad Ingoldsby's another one. Like, he's does Mare, Beast Town and Taft over actually making a movie.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, they're doing great in tv, but I would just invite them to come back to the movie theater.

[Bill Simmons]

Come back, just make a quick one.

[Wesley Morris]

But the thing is, I will just end here. The thing about the movie star problem is, like, they don't get to say who the movie stars are. We do. And if you're not making movies and taking risks on people being in them and seeing what happens when we get to vote with our money and our time, then we'll never have the stars.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, it's like the William Goldman quote. Nobody knows anything. Yeah, right. He has that whole chapter about how Richard Gere got Pretty Woman because he was like the 13th choice. And he lists all the terrible movies Richard Gere made for like eight years. When Richard Gere was like, if we were talking about 1980 Richard Gere, now we'd be like, well, Richard Gere, there's one of our five stars. And then it just dies for him, literally for eight years. And then all of a sudden, he gets Pretty Woman. It's like, richard Gere's a star. Well, he was always a star. He was in the right movie. I think the voices matter as much as the stars.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, the actual. Yes, yes. The actual writers and directors.

[Bill Simmons]

You need both.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, so you think just to send us home, you think that movie stardom is in what kind of place right now? Like. Like, it's in good shape?

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Bill Simmons]

I think movies are in good shape. I don't think movie stardom is. But this is. I mean, as you know, I love to compare the NBA to everything. This is always the issue with the NBA. Like, they have LeBron and Curry and Durant headed toward retirement pretty close. And who is the next wave of guys that are kind of come in? Who are the American stars that are coming? We don't have them.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, you.

[Bill Simmons]

You start holding your. Anthony Edwards. I was going to say the shalom.

[Wesley Morris]

That's the. Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

It's like, man, we need Anthony Edwards. And then, you know, like, Devin Booker becomes Austin Butler, and you start. You just start, like, trying to talk yourself into different people. But stars are stars. You know it when you see it. It's like seeing a beautiful woman. It's like seeing a great house. It's like anything. You just kind of know. And for whatever reason, we had a ton of them in the 70s and the 80s, and now we don't have as many.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, thanks to Robert Redford.

[Bill Simmons]

Brought a lot of joy.

[Wesley Morris]

Brought a lot of joy. A lot of face fanning.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, I was surprised you didn't mention him in the facial hair pantheon, because that's been a big passion of yours for your entire life.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, my God, the mustache.

[Bill Simmons]

There's a mustache. And he had that strawberry, like, it was a unique color, but also the Jeremiah Johnson beard.

[Wesley Morris]

I didn't like that.

[Bill Simmons]

But he could give these different looks just with the facial hair, which.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, you know, Bill, we didn't really get into this, but, I mean, part of his stardom, I mean, some of it is a lot of it is Nixon, but a lot of it is hair. Bill Simmons, thank you for.

[Bill Simmons]

For doing this. The pleasure was all mine.

[Wesley Morris]

Back at you. Thanks.

[Mont Blanc Narrator]

Mont Blanc invites you to use life's quiet moments to pause, reflect, and put pen to paper.

[Wesley Morris]

Chapter one.

[Mont Blanc Narrator (Alternate Voice)]

Oh, no, no, no, no.

[Wesley Morris]

Part one. Perfect. The mountains are impressive.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, I wish you were here to see them.

[Podcast Narrator]

Dear Diary, meet my new writing companion.

[Mont Blanc Narrator]

The Meister stuck For every journey, the perfect companion awaits. Montblanc. Let's write. Visit montblanc.com for exquisitely crafted writing instruments, leather goods and more.

[Deborah Kamin]

I'm Deborah Kamin. I'm an investigative reporter at the New York Times. When I say real estate, I'm guessing you're thinking about things like the cost of rent, what the market looks like, whether or not mortgage rates are going to go up. What I do is I look at what goes on beneath those numbers. The people running the industry who for so many years have been relatively invisible. And the more that I look into it, the more that I find there are people operating unethically, and their unethical behavior affects every single American. If we only focus on the numbers, it's like covering the results of an election and not looking at the politicians. To know why the system is the way it is, you have to understand the people making decisions behind it. At the New York Times, we don't ever tell a story at just the top level. We're always looking a little bit deeper to help readers better understand not just what something is, but why it is and also who's causing it to be that way. You can subscribe to the New york [e-mail] subscribe.

[Wesley Morris]

That'S our show. This episode of Cannonball was produced by Elissa Dudley, Janelle Anderson, John White and Austin Mitchell, with production assistance from Kate lepresti. Lisa Tobin, she's our editor. This episode was engineered by Daniel Ramirez. It was recorded by Matty Masiello, Kyle Grandillo and Nick Pittman. Dan Paul Powell and Diane Wong. They did the original music. Our theme music, as always, is by Justin Ellington. Bobby Dougherty took the photo for our show art. Our video team is Brooke Minters and Felice Leon. This episode was filmed by Alfredo Chiarapa. It was edited by Mark Zemel and Jeremy Rockland. We're on YouTube. Watch and subscribe, please. Thanks for listening, everybody. We'll be back next week. Week with a little Sam.