Cannonball with Wesley Morris

Episode: "Robert Redford Was a True Movie Star. Are There Any Left?"
Date: October 9, 2025
Host: Wesley Morris
Guest: Bill Simmons

Overview

In this episode, Wesley Morris and Bill Simmons explore the elusive qualities of movie stardom by reflecting on the legacy of Robert Redford, who recently passed away. Using Redford as a lens, they dig into what makes a "true" movie star, whether such icons still exist today, and how cultural shifts and the landscape of Hollywood have evolved. They revisit classic Redford roles, compare him to contemporaries, and play their signature "Above the Fold" game, rating which current and past celebrities would merit front-page, above-the-fold status in The New York Times upon their death. The tone is a mix of warmth, nostalgia, and sharp cultural critique, blending personal anecdotes with broader cultural insights.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining "Movie Star": The Redford Standard

• Redford’s Unique Stardom:
  Morris opens by describing Redford as the ultimate movie star, “Everybody's mom, including mine, loved this man. She paid good money to see him act. But I have no doubt that she'd have paid with a piece of her heart, too, which is kind of how you know he was a star.” (01:03)
• Movie Star vs. Actor:
  Simmons: "We don't have Redfords anymore. They just don't exist." (02:22)

2. Redford's Defining Roles and Their Cultural Impact

• Key Redford Films:
  • Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid: The charismatic buddy dynamic with Paul Newman, which Simmons describes as “almost the first modern buddy cop movie. Even though they're not cops, they're the bad guys. But the way they interact, I think has been stolen for the next 55 years.” (05:14)
  • All the President’s Men: Redford’s subtlety, trustworthiness, and decency as Bob Woodward stand out. Simmons praises Redford for how he handles nuanced roles: “Those parts don't get enough credit for how hard they are.” (08:48)
  • The Natural: Iconic sports myth-making and Redford’s embodiment of untouchable moral heroism. “He hits a home run that makes the lights explode and then has a catch with his bastard son in a cornfield.” (10:05)
  • Three Days of the Condor: Morris calls it “pure movie star gold,” highlighting the opening where “He's biking to work in, like, the coolest outfit...I will spend a whole movie with this guy.” (12:32)
  • Indecent Proposal: Used as an example of a “bad movie” elevated by Redford’s star power and surprising casting, pushing against his moral type: “It's just a fascinating use of a person whose entire stardom is the opposite of this character.” (19:30)

3. The Morality and Iconography of Redford

• Redford’s "WASP" Image & Integrity:
  Redford occupies a singular space: “He benefited from an entire history of, of a sort of blond, blue eyed iconography that made him seem like he could do anything. And at a moment in which the country has been falling apart for eight years, here's this guy who just is so calm and level headed...” (21:39)
• Moral Compass:
  Redford brought a sense of integrity to every role. “His characters always had some sort of compass that you trusted. And he never played characters that didn't have the compass that I can think of.” (11:05)

4. Redford Among His Peers: Who Else Could Be Gatsby?

• Comparisons to Contemporaries:
  • Contrasts Redford’s honorable image with Warren Beatty’s overt sexuality: “The difference is Warren Beatty always had that horny look to him. Right. Everyone was fair game at all times.” (22:38)
  • On the role of Gatsby: Only three actors in 50 years could convincingly play Gatsby: Redford, Leonardo DiCaprio, and Brad Pitt. (25:03)

5. Directorial Legacy and Aging Onscreen

• Redford as Director:
  Ordinary People, A River Runs Through It, and Quiz Show are highlighted as examples of strong, classic filmmaking. “It's a pretty good director.” (26:37)
• Aging and Honesty:
  Redford “letting time tell its story” as he refused to chase perpetual youth onscreen, contrasted to Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise:
  “But he seemed the exact age he was...he really did look old.” (37:03)

6. Above the Fold: Who Gets Front-Page Deaths?

• Signature Game:
  Morris and Simmons “play” their long-running “Above the Fold” game, debating which celebrities would merit a New York Times front-page obituary.
  • Obvious: Redford, Newman, Nicholson, Meryl Streep (“just the entire paper” 31:21), Barbra Streisand, DiCaprio, Tom Cruise, Denzel Washington (“Him and Meryl Streep are the paper.” 38:52), Julia Roberts.
  • On-the-Cusp: Warren Beatty ("he's right on the fringe." 31:10), Eddie Murphy.
  • Probably Not: Michael B. Jordan, Pedro Pascal, Shirley MacLaine.
• What Makes the Cut:
  It's not only longevity or box office—public persona, cultural influence, and “defining the culture” matter most.
  • On Michael B. Jordan: “He is not above the fold caliber yet, but I have faith. I'll buy your above the fold stock.” (32:41)

7. Do We Still Have Movie Stars?

• Structural Changes in Hollywood:
  The rise of streaming, IP-driven blockbusters, and prestige TV means fewer vehicles for stardom: “You need great parts for that...People aren't just...cranking out two, three a year anymore." (43:07)
• The Redford "Pipeline":
  Sundance’s importance in fostering new voices and diversity—without Redford, no Fruitvale Station or Michael B. Jordan as we know him.
• Current Hopefuls:
  Simmons points to Austin Butler, Timothée Chalamet ("I really like the bones of what he’s putting together..." 41:17), and Michael B. Jordan as potential heirs but admits the ecosystem no longer supports steady star-making.

8. Star Power Is a Two-Way Street

• Audience as Kingmakers:
  “They don't get to say who the movie stars are. We do. And if you're not making movies and taking risks on people being in them... then we'll never have the stars.” (46:18)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Butch & Sundance’s Magic:
  Bill Simmons: “It’s like we’re getting to hang out with two movie stars...Think about how many movies have tried to rip that off ever since.” (05:45)

• On Redford’s Moral Center:
  Wesley Morris: “Some of the things that make him such a great star are that he never wavered in embodying those things. Integrity, decency, honor, morality, justice. I mean, he was uncorruptible.” (11:08)

• On Elevating Bad Movies:
  Bill Simmons: “Even though we both love it. This should have been Richard Gere. This is a Richard Gere part...I just never, never bought that [Redford] was pervy enough to be the guy.” (19:10)

• On Movie Stardom’s Future:
  Wesley Morris: “Movie stardom is not [in good shape] and it needs some help. And one of the things it needs is more great to mediocre screenwriting to give these people something to do.” (45:32)

  Bill Simmons: “You need both [stars and voices].” (47:22)

• On Seeing a Star:
  Bill Simmons: “Stars are stars. You know it when you see it. It's like seeing a beautiful woman. It's like seeing a great house. It's like anything. You just kind of know.” (47:59)

• On Redford’s Facial Hair:
  Bill Simmons: “He had that strawberry, like, it was a unique color, but also the Jeremiah Johnson beard.” (48:38)

Key Timestamps

• 01:03 – Morris on the “moms love Redford” test of stardom
• 05:14 – The impact of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
• 08:48 – The precision of Redford’s “straight man” in All the President’s Men
• 10:05 – Discussing The Natural’s iconic ending
• 11:08 – Redford’s unwavering moral compass as star-definer
• 12:32 – “Pure movie star gold” and Redford’s star presence in Three Days of the Condor
• 19:30 – The fascinating miscasting of Redford in Indecent Proposal
• 25:03 – Who else could play Gatsby: Redford, DiCaprio, Pitt
• 31:21 – “Meryl Streep is just the entire paper.”
• 38:52 – Denzel and Meryl: “are the paper” for the front page
• 41:17 – Timothée Chalamet’s prospects as a future movie star
• 43:07 – “People aren’t just cranking out two, three a year anymore”
• 46:18 – Audiences, not executives, determine movie stars
• 47:59 – “Stars are stars. You know it when you see it.”
• 48:38 – The importance of Redford’s facial hair in his stardom

Overall Tone and Takeaways

Wesley Morris and Bill Simmons blend playful nostalgia and sharp critique, honoring Redford as the rare “true” movie star—handsome, moral, and emblematic of his era—while mourning the scarcity of such figures today. Through incisive film analysis and their signature banter, they underline how changing industry economics and shifting cultural values have made genuine stardom rare, but not impossible.
The conversation ultimately argues that while movies are—maybe—having a resurgence (“Movies are back!”), the phenomenon of the capital-M Movie Star remains fragile, always dependent on audiences’ affections, the right roles, and the ineffable “it” factor that made Redford a legend.

For listeners seeking to understand why Robert Redford mattered, and why stardom today looks so different, this episode offers wit, warmth, and wisdom.