Where Have All the Covers Gone?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Cannonball with Wesley Morris – “Where Have All the Covers Gone?”

Host: Wesley Morris (The New York Times)
Guest: Cecile McLorin Salvant (Grammy-winning jazz vocalist)
Date: November 13, 2025
Episode Theme:
A vibrant, nuanced exploration of the role and meanings of cover songs (aka "covers") in popular music and why they seem to have faded from mainstream culture, featuring a deep-dive conversation between Wesley Morris and Cecile McLorin Salvant.

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Overview

Wesley Morris frames the episode around the rise and recent scarcity of “cover songs” on popular music charts, springboarding from WXPN’s year-end list of the greatest covers. The episode both celebrates the transformative power of covers and interrogates the complex politics, creative choices, cultural histories, and personal feelings that swirl around the act of reinterpreting another artist’s work. With Cecile McLorin Salvant—a vocalist known for breathing radical new life into classic material—Morris digs into the difference between standards and covers, the role of race in American cover culture, and what draws artists to (or repels them from) the act of covering a song.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Host’s Cover Song List & What Makes a Great Cover (00:41–05:47)

• Wesley’s Picks: He shares his personal top 10 greatest covers, emphasizing the pain and joy of narrowing it down, and notes his own exclusions—no reggae, Tori Amos, or Mary J. Blige.

  • #10 Pet Shop Boys' "Always On My Mind" (Willie Nelson)
  • #9 The Bangles' "Hazy Shade of Winter" (Simon & Garfunkel)
  • #8 Whitney Houston's "I'm Every Woman" (Chaka Khan)
  • #7 Cecile McLorin Salvant's "Wuthering Heights" (Kate Bush)
  • #6 Jodeci's "Lately" (Stevie Wonder)
  • #5 Chaka Khan's "I Feel For You" (Prince)
  • #4 Ike & Tina Turner's "Come Together" (The Beatles)
  • #3 Stevie Wonder's "We Can Work It Out" (The Beatles)
  • #2 Patti Smith's "Gloria" (Them/Van Morrison)
  • #1 Aretha Franklin's "Respect" (Otis Redding)

• What makes a cover great?
  “Their songs become hers, and to a listener, they mean something deeper than the original and often sound completely new. Her interpretation doubles as a kind of music criticism.” – Wesley Morris, on Cecile’s art (04:16)

2. Defining a “Cover” vs. a Standard (06:19–09:37)

• Cecile’s View: She doesn’t use the word “cover,” associating it instead with contemporary pop/youtube parlance and less so the jazz tradition.

  • “If you go around jazz musicians and ask them, oh, what song is that? Is that a cover? They’ll most likely say, no, that's a standard.” – Cecile McLorin Salvant (07:58)

• Standards vs. Covers:
  Standards are communal repertoire—any jazz musician might interpret “Summertime” but it’s not seen as a “cover” because no single artist owns it. The genre and tradition shape the definition.

• The challenge of classical and folk music:
  Calling an aria or folk song a cover feels alien due to the tradition of reinterpretation as the norm.

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3. Interpolations & Beyoncé as a Case Study (09:37–15:20)

• Interpolation:
  Not just imitation—a song may borrow elements (melody, hooks) but transform or rewrite core parts (e.g., lyrics). Beyoncé’s "Jolene" (from Cowboy Carter) serves as a focal point:

  • “She rewrites the song…the melody and the changes are the same…the bones of the song, it’s like a mutation. Her song is in conversation with Dolly Parton’s song.” – Wesley Morris (10:45–10:56)
  • The political reading: Beyoncé’s version addresses both the original song and cultural expectations about her place in country music.

• Beyoncé’s “Blackbird”

  • A highly faithful cover (unlike “Jolene”), significant for its all-Black-women vocals; discussed as an act of “honoring the spirit” and the politics of who sings what and why.
    • “She understands…there’s two covers on this album…But the other explicit cover…is Blackbird by The Beatles. And it’s beautiful. It’s her and four other Black women singing this song together. It’s very faithful…and the politics of Beyoncé doing a cover is like—she’s like, I want in.” – Wesley Morris (13:39–14:39)

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4. The Alchemy of Great Covers: Aretha Franklin’s “Amazing Grace” (15:28–19:13)

• Track Dissection: Aretha’s “Precious Lord, Take My Hand / You’ve Got a Friend”

  • Cecile marvels at how Aretha blends gospel roots back into a pop song originally inspired by gospel — a creative “reclaiming” and “desecularizing” of material via interpretation.
  • “We’re explicitly desecularizing this song. This song that was a secularization of our own song.” – Wesley Morris/Cecile (18:01–18:10)

• Aretha as the Greatest Cover Artist:
  Her ability to transform even familiar songs into transcendent, deeply personal statements is repeatedly lauded.

  • “Aretha was out here lifting her leg on some fire hydrants all over town. And she loved it. She loved dropping houses on people.” – Wesley Morris (19:56–20:02)

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5. Covers and the Marketplace: Race, Recognition, & “Fast Car” (20:01–26:48)

• Luke Combs’ “Fast Car”:
  The rare recent cover to become a chart hit; discussed for both its fidelity to Tracy Chapman’s arrangement and the controversy of a white man charting with a Black woman’s signature song.

  • “What I love about the Luke Combs cover is that it exposes to me the problem that we have with covers. It’s like a moral problem. And our discomfort about what to do when we Black people do a white thing and a white person does a Black thing.” – Wesley Morris (24:44–24:57)

  • Chapman’s Approval: Her onstage endorsement at the Grammys resolves some of the anxiety about appropriation—she “gets a lot of Tracy feel” (23:43), and the performance is framed as intergenerational musical exchange.

• Historical Context: Covers as tools for white artists to capitalize on Black innovation (e.g., Little Richard’s “Tutti Frutti” vs. Pat Boone’s version).

  • “That right there, let's say, just in popular music alone, for a Black person to write a song, perform a song, and then for that song to then be covered by extremely famous white performers…their version becomes [bigger].” – Cecile McLorin Salvant (22:45–23:27)

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6. Artistic Motivation: Why (and Why Not) Cover a Song? (28:26–34:52)

• On Choosing Material: Cecile covers songs that cling to her emotionally—sometimes even songs she “almost hate[s]” or finds ugly.

  • “I have to be surprised by [a song]. Has to cling to me sometimes. I have to kind of almost hate it.” – Cecile McLorin Salvant (28:38)

• Case Study – “Wuthering Heights”:
  Cecile discovered the Kate Bush song via her sister at 16, fell under its spell, but resisted covering it due to genre expectations. After reading the novel and falling in love with the story during the pandemic, she approached the song anew, fusing it with Irish sean-nós singing for a haunting, book-rooted version.

  • “I never thought that I could sing it…like, I never thought that it would be appropriate. I was in a jazz school…where am I gonna do this song? …So I thought that I wasn't allowed to cover it. Isn’t that funny?” – Cecile McLorin Salvant (29:11–29:45)
  • The “ghostly” production: recorded in a stormy Manhattan church, using distant microphones to create a spectral, cinematic effect (35:01–35:32).

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7. The Vulnerability and Play of Covering (34:52–41:47)

• On Singing Famous Songs: Cecile admits she avoids extremely well-known songs (“Through the Fire" by Chaka Khan) out of fear of comparison or feeling too “karaoke.”

  • “There's a part of me that has a tendency to shy away from songs that are too well known, too popular. I don’t want to do them for some reason.” – Cecile McLorin Salvant (37:04)

• Self-Indulgence & Permission:
  The tension between wanting to embody a hero’s voice and fearing it will be self-serving or fall short—plus the cultural “permissions” that shape who sings what.

• Drawn to the “Ugly” or Uncomfortable:
  Cecile is attracted to reclaiming “ugly” songs (“Darkies Never Dream”, “You Bring Out the Savage In Me”)—songs fraught with racial stereotypes. She enjoys the ambivalence and subversive pleasure of “touching the hot oven.”

  • “It’s so racist and it’s so false and then also so true that people think that. Yes. And continue to think that…So I go, I want to sing that. I want…to touch the hot oven. …There’s something dangerous about it. …I have a troll in me. And that’s the troll in me that wants to sing these songs.” – Cecile McLorin Salvant (41:03–42:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Their songs become hers, and to a listener, they mean something deeper than the original and often sound completely new.”
  – Wesley Morris, on Cecile’s interpretive genius (04:13)

• “If you go around jazz musicians and ask them, oh, what song is that? Is that a cover? They’ll most likely say, no, that's a standard.”
  – Cecile McLorin Salvant (07:58)

• “The bones of the song, it’s like a mutation. Her song is in conversation with Dolly Parton’s song.”
  – Wesley Morris on Beyoncé’s “Jolene” (10:52)

• “We’re explicitly desecularizing this song. This song that was a secularization of our own song.”
  – Cecile McLorin Salvant and Wesley Morris on Aretha’s gospel interpolations (18:01–18:10)

• “Aretha was out here lifting her leg on some fire hydrants all over town. …She loved dropping houses on people.”
  – Wesley Morris (19:56)

• “It's like a moral problem. And our discomfort about what to do when we Black people do a white thing and a white person does a Black thing.”
  – Wesley Morris, on covers and race (24:44)

• "I never thought that I could sing it…like, I never thought that it would be appropriate. I was in a jazz school...So I thought that I wasn't allowed to cover it. Isn’t that funny?”
  – Cecile McLorin Salvant on “Wuthering Heights” (29:11–29:45)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:41–05:47 — Wesley’s Top 10 Covers & what makes a cover great
• 06:19–09:37 — What is a “cover” vs. a “standard” vs. interpolation?
• 09:37–15:20 — Beyoncé’s “Jolene” and “Blackbird” as case studies; the politics of covering
• 15:28–19:13 — Aretha Franklin’s “Amazing Grace”; the art of remaking and reclaiming songs
• 20:01–26:48 — “Fast Car” chart success, race, and economics in cover culture
• 28:26–34:52 — Cecile’s process: falling in love with and reinterpreting “Wuthering Heights”
• 34:52–41:47 — Why artists do (or don’t) cover certain songs; the daring pleasure of taboo material

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Tone & Style

The tone is intellectually playful, personal, and candid—Morris and Salvant both use humor and vulnerability alongside sharp cultural criticism. Discussions are steeped in “fan energy” but never over-awed, and the conversation jump-cuts between musical analysis, social critique, and intimate storytelling.

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For First-Time Listeners

This episode functions as both a deep education and a celebration—a must-listen for anyone curious about what makes a cover version matter, both musically and socially. The discussion illuminates how cover songs can be acts of critique, transformation, reclamation, and even resistance, while also wrestling honestly with why the tradition of covering seems to have faded in our pop landscape.

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Additional Recommendations

• Wesley plugs “Hit Parade” (43:10): a podcast episode he calls “a definitional episode about covers on the charts and what they even are.”
• Wesley on Cecile McLorin Salvant (43:30): “I also highly recommend seeing Cecile wherever she’s playing near you. Find out where she’s gonna be and have a really excellent night with one of our great musicians. Period.”

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Listen if you want:

• To understand the shifting place of covers in popular and jazz music.
• To hear sharp, funny, heartfelt stories about creating art in a crowded cultural history.
• To absorb why reclaiming old songs can be radical—and why sometimes, it just feels like karaoke.

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End of summary.

Transcript

[Betterment Advertiser]

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[Wesley Morris]

I'm Wesley Morris and this is Cannonball. Today, I work in the market as a checkout girl. Every December, one of my Favorite radio stations, 88.5 WXPN Transmitting live from Philadelphia, where I'm from, they do an end of year countdown as voted on by listeners. A couple of years ago, it was the 885 greatest songs by women. Last year it was the 885 greatest songs of the 21st century. When I heard that this year was gonna be the 885 greatest covers, I was like, ooh, that's exciting and inspired. Not only do I love me a great cover, we're going through something right now as a culture where pop music's covers have vanished and that's national tragedy territory as far as I'm concerned. As for how I voted, boiling down decades of all that joy to less than a dozen songs was was one of the dumbest and most depressing months of my list making life. But I did it. And I should warn you, Jeff Buckley's Hallelujah is winning this thing. It's that flavor of station. So I'm not using a precious vote on that. Also, my list contains no Cassandra Wilson, no Poynter Sisters, no Grace Jones, no Betty Lavette, no Tori Amos, no Mary J. Blige, not a single reggae cover, which feels like a crime to me. But here's what I do have. Number 10, always on my mind. Pet Shop Boys doing Willie Nelson.

[Interviewer/Host]

You are always on my mind.

[Wesley Morris]

You are always on my mind. Number nine, I was so hard to please. Hazy shade of winter, Bengals doing Simon and garfunkel to death.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

8.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm Every Woman. Whitney Houston doing Chaka Khan.

[Interviewer/Host]

Number 7, Weather and Heights.

[Wesley Morris]

Cecile McLaurin. Salvante doing Kate Bush. Number 6. Lately Jodeci Smoking a Newport all over. Stevie Wonder. Number five. I feel for you. Chaka Khan doing Prince.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I feel for you.

[Wesley Morris]

One thing I can do. Number four, Come together, I can Tina Turner doing the Beatles. Number three. We can work it Out. This is Stevie Wonder doing the Beatles. Stevie didn't do a lot of covers, but when he did, he burned them down. Number two, Gloria, Patty Smith, Going to Town on Van Morrison's old band, Them. And number one, number one, Respect, Aretha Franklin, Dew, and Otis Redding. These are all great covers. But what makes a cover great? Well, actually. Actually, what makes a cover a cover. To think this out, I turned to Cecile McLaurin Salvat, the artist. I put it number seven. Because I have seen this woman perform live a number of times, and one of the great thrills of watching her has been beholding what she's discovered, what she's unearthed in music that other artists wrote. Their songs become hers, and to a listener, they mean something deeper than the original and often sound completely new. Her interpretation doubles as a kind of music criticism, and I really wanted to talk to her about her approach to covering songs. So, Cecile, thanks for being here.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Thank you so much. My goodness, to hear you say all that stuff about me is overwhelming. As a fan. As a fan of yours, it's crazy.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, it's.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Thank you.

[Wesley Morris]

It was truly. I mean, seeing you in Lincoln center was a real highlight for me. Just kind of like sitting back and just letting your imagination burrow its way into mine.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

That's been my experience with you, and it's a pleasure.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Thank you so much.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay. We could talk about so many things, you and I, but what I really want to talk to you about is covers. I actually want to start by trying to define what a cover even is.

[Betterment Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I'm just going to tell you what the dictionary says a cover is. First of all, it's slang. I don't know if. I mean, did you know this?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I did not know, but I also never use that word.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay, this is what I want to talk about.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

So my Webster's New World College Dictionary defines a cover like this. A cover is a version of a song, especially one that has become popular in a particular recording as performed or recorded in imitation of the original or with a fresh interpretation. Now, that's the dictionary definition. I mean, you said you don't even like using the word cover. And so now I actually have to ask, like, what's a cover to you? And do you consider yourself a cover artist?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I actually don't know why. I don't really use that word. I think I just associate it with, like, certain YouTube videos of people covering, like, a Madonna song or something. So maybe it goes back to this definition of, like. It has to be some. It's something that's on the charts now. And. And I think also maybe because I am singing and interpreting so many songs that I haven't written, I can't say that I'm covering, because then that's. You know what I mean? That's all I'm doing. Like, it's no longer. And I think even if I were to think about, like, the jazz community, if I'll use that word, and I don't like thinking in genres, but I think that's also one of the reasons. Cause I don't think we really say, like. If you go around jazz musicians and ask them, like, oh, what song is that? Is that a cover? They'll most likely say, no, that's a standard. Like, I'm playing a standard. Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. This is what I wanted to try to get into a little bit. So we have standards, which are songs that are part of something called the American Songbook. And standards are songs that anybody can play, like Gershwin, Summertime.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And if you play that song, it's not a cover, because no one artist really owns that song. A standard. So there are covers, but then there are also standards. And those are not the same thing.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

For me, it complicates things because I'm also so interested in folk songs. I'm also so interested in, like, all of these anonymous songs that, you know, have gone down traditional. Yeah. And then also I started out singing classical music and wanting to be an opera singer. So then it's like, you can't even. I don't think. Could you say, I'm covering a Bizet song or I'm covering a Puccini. You can't even. Like. It just feels weird to say that.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, you can if you're Beyonce in MTV's Carmen.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

But no, not if you're Cecile McLaren Savant. No, you cannot.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah. So I think it's such an interesting word, and it's odd that it doesn't exist in these circles, in the circles that I run in.

[Wesley Morris]

So a cover, as we've defined, is something that exists to honor a recording that somebody else famously has done. Right. Just leave it at that. There are standards that live in the songbook, and that has traditionally been the realm of jazz artists and people who want to sing, quote, jazz, unquote. And then there is this newish area of interpolation, which is essentially taking parts of a song or the ideas of a song, be it the melody or the hook, and doing something new with it.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And one of our reigning interpolators right now is Beyonce. And the most recent interpolation that people have been talking about, I mean, it's been a few years now, but it was on Cowboy Carter, and it's her.

[Interviewer/Host]

Doing Dolly Parton's Jolene, Jolene, Jolene, Jolene, Jolene I'm walking.

[Betterment Advertiser]

What do we do?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Is that. Yeah.

[Betterment Advertiser]

Is that.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

What is that? Is that a cover?

[Wesley Morris]

It's not a. I wouldn't call it a cover.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Because there's new lyrics, Right.

[Wesley Morris]

She rewrites the song. Yeah.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

But the melody and the changes are the same, right? That's true. And the harmonic changes.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. The bones of the song, it's like a mutation.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. Her song is in conversation with Dolly Parton's song.

[Interviewer/Host]

Jolene, Jolene, Jolene, Jolene I'm begging of you please don't take my man.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

And also in conversation with everybody who thinks that she shouldn't be doing country music.

[Dan Barry]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah. God.

[Wesley Morris]

Because in a weird way, I'm gonna say what I think Beyonce is up to. I think she understands. Well, I mean. And you can tell me what you think, but, I mean, I think she's paying respect to the song.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah. Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

But, I mean, I think the politics of the song don't work for her.

[Interviewer/Host]

I can easily understand how you could easily take my man but you don't know what he means to me Jolene.

[Wesley Morris]

And Jolene has been addressed one way for decades, and it's now time to say something else to Jolene.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yes. I'mma get you.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. But then it turns into, like. There's a gospel church element that also has a little bit of what I would call, like, holler music in it at the end. Right. Where these male voices come on.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And stand alongside her as she's offering this threat. I don't know if you remember what comes after.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

No, tell me, tell me.

[Wesley Morris]

But there's a song where she's, like, basically beating up some lady in the bathroom.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Your blood stains are my custom couture.

[Wesley Morris]

There's still Jolene in this, right?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah. It's like. It's almost like a coda or like an epilogue or something. It's like the song didn't end, really.

[Wesley Morris]

No.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I really tried to stay cool, but your arrogance disturbed my solitude. I have so many thoughts bubbling up. But I guess the question for me is, I think with Beyonce, it's a totally different thing when she covers a song. Right. It's like. It's an event. It's huge. When she covers a song, I think.

[Wesley Morris]

That the thing about what Beyonce does is she dimensionalizes.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

So she's not just thinking about the song at hand. She's thinking about, like, why would I sing this song?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Why?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Because it's Beyonce. Exactly.

[Wesley Morris]

Yep.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

It's a different position. Cause it's almost like a politician doing something. Like, it's that big, where it's like, if I'm doing it, what does it mean for me to be doing it?

[Wesley Morris]

Right.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Me, the icon, the cultural giant.

[Wesley Morris]

And so she understands. So there's two covers on this album. Jolene. Is one like Jolene, one of the most covered songs of all time.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

But the other explicit cover. The only explicit, explicit cover on the album is Blackbird by the Beatles. And it's beautiful. It's her and four other black women singing this song together.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

We're only waiting for this moment to arrive.

[Wesley Morris]

It's very faithful.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

I think the thing that I love about it is, like, to our point, about the politics of covers. Right?

[Dan Barry]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And the politics of Beyonce doing a cover is like, she's like, this is the second or, you know, fourth or fifth most covered song of all time.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Absolutely.

[Wesley Morris]

I want in.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And I want to honor the spirit in which the song was even written.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yes. I don't need to do anything that crazy or drastic to what the song initially was.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah. I remember hearing that when I put the album on when it came out, and I was. I think the covers were the thing that surprised me the most. I said, wow, I never thought I would hear Beyonce sing Blackbird.

[Wesley Morris]

I didn't either.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Or Jolene.

[Wesley Morris]

Right, right. Okay, now I want to shift gears just a tiny little bit. I know we've been using the music to try to figure out a way to talk about what a cover actually is, but you and I both brought one true cover that we love to the studio today. Like a cover cover.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

And I actually. I don't know what yours is. What do you have for me?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I have so many. But you know what we'll do? Aretha Franklin, Amazing Grace. She does Precious Lord, take my hand and then mashes it up with youh've Got a Friend by Carole King.

[Wesley Morris]

Can we hear that so good.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Please.

[Interviewer/Host]

When you're down.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, in trouble, I'm gonna start crying.

[Interviewer/Host]

Cecilia, I know you need some love and care.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

What's incredible about Aretha's is Precious Lord, take my hand. Sounds a little bit like you've got a friend.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Host]

And soon I will be there.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

And then they turn. You've got a friend You've Got a Friend is no longer this romantic song about, you've got a friend in me. Your. You know, your love or your friend. You've got a friend in Jesus.

[Interviewer/Host]

He will be there.

[Wesley Morris]

Once you've heard this version, you can hear what you're saying, which is like, you've got a friend is in there.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Host]

Your darkest hour.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Precious Lord. So now we're in. Precious Lord, take my hand. So she started with the verse of youf've got a friend. Now they're going to. Precious Lord, take my hand.

[Wesley Morris]

And as a listener, you're like, I know this, but now it's something else.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

And then they're gonna go back to. So it's like a sandwich.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. You got a plantain dealer.

[Wesley Morris]

She's taking the peanut butter and jelly and put it on the ham and cheese. And the ham and cheese is on the peanut butter. I don't even know if that makes any sense, but, like, it does.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

But I think what makes this even more intense for me is that Carole King was so inspired by gospel music. So when she wrote you've Got a Friend, it has all the ingredients of a gospel song. So it's this, like, reclaiming a thing that was inspired by you.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

And then that was turned into a pop song, right?

[Dan Barry]

Yes.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Because you've Got a Friend is a gospel song already. And they heard it, and they said, let's bring it back into the church.

[Wesley Morris]

We're explicitly desecularizing this song.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

This song that was a secularization of our own song.

[Wesley Morris]

Or re. Spiritualizing it is a good way to put it.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah, exactly.

[Wesley Morris]

It's just really beautiful.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I could venture to say that Aretha Franklin is one of the greatest people to cover songs that ever existed. Well, if you think about that version of her doing Nes um Dorma at that award show, at the Grammys, at the Grammys.

[Wesley Morris]

1999, I believe. 1998.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Insane.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. They said she couldn't do it. Guess what she did.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

She sings it. She's herself every time.

[Wesley Morris]

Every time.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

And it's transcendent every time. She takes even the most vapid material and can just bring it to a new plane. So I think Aretha, if I had to do a top 10 people to cover a song, she would be. She's there. She's on the desert island. She's covering any song.

[Wesley Morris]

But Aretha was bad, though. She was like, is this song on the chart? Mm. Mm. Excuse me.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Excuse me. Dion. I'm coming. I'm coming over. Yes.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, famously when she covers Dionne Warwick's I say a Little Prayer, I.

[Interviewer/Host]

Say a Little Prayer.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, America could still taste Dionne Warwick's perfectly savory version in their mouths. And then here comes Aretha with the mouthwash to, like, give us a new meal.

[Interviewer/Host]

I say a little prayer for you and while I'm combing my hair now.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

But imagine how mad you would be if on top of that, she sounds that good. It's like, that's even worse.

[Wesley Morris]

But Aretha was out here lifting her leg on some fire hydrants all over town.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I know.

[Wesley Morris]

And she loved it. She loved dropping houses on people. Okay, you chose Precious Lord, you got a friend from Aretha Franklin's perfect, like, greatest of all time recording Amazing Grace album from 1972. I'mma Be Basic and talk about the impetus for why I even wanted to talk about covers in the first place, which is basically that they have disappeared from the charts, and there hasn't been one that's gotten even close, at least in my memory, to the top of the charts in 25 years. Except this one song, which is Luke Combs doing Tracy Chapman's Fast Car. You got a Fast Car.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Part of the thing, too. That is interesting is that the musical arrangement, the instruments sound similar.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. My favorite part of the song. It's very subtle.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

And.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, wait, here it is. Here it is. So this big, burly man getting the mechanism.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Check it out.

[Wesley Morris]

Girl screwed up the song, and that's big. By honoring basically what was happening in the original version.

[Dan Barry]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, that's great. He doesn't change anything.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

That's great.

[Wesley Morris]

So I think what I love about the Luke Combs cover is a. That it is a complete and faithful rendition of Tracy Chapman's version that just by virtue of his not being Tracy Chapman, automatically makes it distinctive.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

He is singing Luke Combs way of singing. But this song.

[Betterment Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And the arrangement is basically Tracy Chapman's arrangement with a little more meat on the plate.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

It's just a really good cover.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

To me, the effect is kind of crazy, actually, because then you're really zoning in on what's different about it, Right?

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there was a controversy when this song came out.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

What was the controversy?

[Wesley Morris]

Why is this white man singing this lady's song?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Oh, oh, oh.

[Wesley Morris]

Now, there's this other aspect of covers, as I understand them, which basically is a marketplace concern. And when I say that, all I'm hearing is some white person hearing a black thing and wanting to get that money.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And so, famously, what Comes to mind for me is basically somebody like Little Richard. Womb, bombaloom, bom bom. Tootie fr puts out tootie frutti. And then, like, 10 seconds later, here comes Pat Boone doing this.

[Betterment Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Rudy. All Rudy. That is such a. I don't know if it's only American, but it is a very big part of American culture. That right there, let's say, just in popular music alone, for a black person to write a song, perform a song, and then for that song to then be covered by extremely famous white performers who change it a little bit, and then their version becomes. I mean, not in this case, but often.

[Wesley Morris]

No. Little Richard historically wins.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

He won that.

[Wesley Morris]

He didn't win the round.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Exactly. But it's a lot of how American music has been shaped.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. Tracy Chapman, though, when Luke Combs covers Fast Car and it's all over the radio, I mean, she wrote the song. It's her song.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

She gets a lot of Tracy feel.

[Wesley Morris]

She was honored. So honored, in fact, that they show up together at the 2024 Grammys to perform this song.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

You're right. You're right.

[Wesley Morris]

And she's the first person on stage. Her beautiful hands and then her beautiful face are the first things you see in this performance.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And she plays the first verse. You got a fast car.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I wanted to get you anywhere.

[Wesley Morris]

And then Luke Combs comes out and they do the song together, and it's beautiful. She's endorsed this version, and I don't know.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

How do you feel about it? Is that. Is that, too.

[Wesley Morris]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, I. What I love about this song is that it exposed to me the problem that we have with covers. It's like a moral problem. And our discomfort about what to do when we black people do a white thing and a white person does a black thing.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Anything that feels like theft in that the white person is capitalizing off the work of a black person, Anything that feels appropriative usually results in a kind of backlash, but in this case, the song was extremely popular. This song was a huge hit.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

It was huge.

[Wesley Morris]

It was more popular in this day than Tracy Chapman's version was in hers. And her version was very popular, right?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Oh, you're talking about. This version was hugely popular.

[Wesley Morris]

This version. Yes.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Oh, my gosh.

[Wesley Morris]

It's a huge hit. It was at number. It, like, drifted to number two. It was on that chart for months.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Do you think there are some people who don't even know that it's a Tracy Jack? Well, of course.

[Wesley Morris]

I think there are a lot of people who don't know. I mean, but you cannot hold what people don't know. I don't think you can hold. What they don't know is being covered against them. Yeah, right.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

And also, I mean, that's the glory and beauty of being a composer, is that your work lives on through other people, and it's no longer about your interpretation.

[Wesley Morris]

Right, right, right.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Like, that's why being a composer is, like. That feels like the most. I mean, it's like the most coveted thing for a musician because it's like, when the body will fail, the song will still live on. I mean, so. Yeah, that's interesting.

[Wesley Morris]

But I think what I also love about the Luke Combs cover is that it helps dislodge the sacrosanct aspect of the song. To say that, like. Well, because Tracy Chapman did it so memorably, I couldn't possibly do it. And this is the thing about Wuthering Heights, right?

[Betterment Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, I had never thought about Wuthering Heights as a song, as a written song, as a piece of songwriting. Yeah. I heard it as a Kate Bush song that I love.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah, I know what you're saying as a performance. Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. It's so attached to the person that it cannot exist by itself.

[Wesley Morris]

Right, right, right.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay, let's take a break. I think when we come back, what I want to do is talk about what makes you want to cover a song like Wuthering Heights and how you think about what your own covers are trying to. To do. We'll be right back. The New York Times app has all this stuff that you may not have seen. I can immediately navigate to something that matches what I'm feeling.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

The way the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections.

[Wesley Morris]

It'S just easier to navigate that way. There is something for everyone.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Those personalized page, the utep, that one's my favorite. I can also save my articles easily in this area right under the byline.

[Wesley Morris]

It says, click here if you'd like to listen to this article.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I like that the cooking tab on top is really easily accessible.

[Wesley Morris]

So if I'm on my way home and I'm just thinking, oh, what am I gonna make for dinner? I'll just quickly go on to cooking and say, oh, I've got this in my pantry. I'm gonna try out some of these recipes. I see in here. I go to games, always doing the.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Mini, doing the wordle. I loved how much content it exposed me to things That I never would have thought to turn to a app.

[Wesley Morris]

For this app is essential.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

The New York Times app. All of the times, all in one place. Download it [e-mail] app.

[Wesley Morris]

All right, we are back. And Cecile.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I. I want to talk about your covers, please. I mean, to begin with, how do you decide which songs you're going to perform? And do you have to like the song to cover it?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I have to. It's not even like it. I have to be surprised by. Has to cling to me sometimes. I have to kind of almost hate it. Like, I have to have a strong, strong feeling. And it's funny when you talk about Wuthering Heights, which is the Kate Bush song, I'll talk a little bit about, like, why I started singing it.

[Dan Barry]

Okay.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Initially, my sister wanted me to do a playlist for her wedding. She was like, but you have to put Wuthering Heights on the playlist. I had no idea what it was. I was 16 years old.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, wow.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I listened to it. I was like, what is this alien music? I was like, this is insane.

[Interviewer/Host]

You sound in my room.

[Wesley Morris]

This sounds like a cat being thrown off a cliff. What's happening?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

What is going on? I played it over and over again. I got. You know when you get connected to a song like that and you just love just letting it wash over you on repeat, and then I sort of forgot about it because it's funny. I never thought that I could sing it. Like, I never thought that it would be appropriate. I was in a jazz school.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I see. I was, you know, I was studying classical music. I was like, where am I gonna do this song? Like, no one gonna wanna do this song. Like, this is ridiculous. So I thought that I wasn't allowed to cover it. Isn't that funny? Mm. And then it was the pandemic. Because the walls between the walls of genre are so. Can be so thick and strong.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. And impermeable.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

Right.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

And then the pandemic happened. And I was like, I've always wanted to read Wuthering Heights. I read it. I loved it. I was like, I can't get enough of this story. I started watching, like, shows. Mov.

[Wesley Morris]

There's an infinite number of movies.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Movies, their series. I got so into it. And there were no. If we can call them movie adaptations, covers. There were no covers that were satisfying. Except for Kate Bush's song. That, to me, was the closest way to get back into the vibe of that book.

[Interviewer/Host]

Out on the wy windy moors, we'd Roll.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I was just listening to that over and over again because I was just. I wanted to live in that book forever. I never wanted to get out. And then I started singing it and I mixed it with the melody of this Sean Nose song, which Sean knows is a type of Irish traditional singing that is unaccompanied.

[Wesley Morris]

I call it a shanty song, but it's not quite shanty. It's Sean knows.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Sean knows. Yeah. It's this ornamented singing type. I was just getting so into Sean knows and. And I just felt like I. I've gotta sing this song now. If only to just be able to live in this book a little bit longer and then share that with others. You know?

[Interviewer/Host]

Out on the wily windy we'd roll and fall in greed. You had a temper like my jealousy.

[Wesley Morris]

So how did you know you did not want to do what Kate Bush did? Right. Like, there's a cover of this song where you're just paying tribute to Kate Bush's performance by imitating, but you're not doing that. You are finding something in this song that is more correspondent with the book than any classical interpretation would ever be.

[Interviewer/Host]

Leave behind my Wuthering.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Wuthering.

[Interviewer/Host]

Wuthering Heights. Heathcliff. It's me. I'm Kathy. I've come home. I'm so cold. Let me.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

That's so interesting. I think that maybe comes from being in jazz world, jazz scene. I think that is something that you're just expected to do if you're doing jazz. Like, if you were to cover it the same way, it's kind of sad and pathetic. You know what I mean?

[Wesley Morris]

It's like not even a dash of Lowry's.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah. It's like, really okay. And I think also. So going back to this idea of this discomfort of singing something that was so outside of what I usually sing, I was like, how can I get away with this? How do I make it so that I can sing it and not feel strange about it? And so paring it down really made that much easier for me.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. And I didn't say this, but you only used the first verse.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And the beautiful thing about the recording is that you're recorded as though you are far away.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't know where you were standing in relation to the mic or if it's an effect, but the ghostliness comes through in the recording from this distance, at least between you and Heathcliff. And it's like, this is a movie, what you've done. You start out in my mind when I'm Closing my eyes and listening to this. You're a tiny little speck at the beginning of the song, and you are drifting toward my mind's eye, which I'm going to say is a camera. And you're getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

[Interviewer/Host]

Let me in your window so that.

[Wesley Morris]

By the time you get to the chorus, which you only do once, you are life size, if not larger, and you're in this man's window, and he's like, oh, Lord, she's here.

[Interviewer/Host]

Let me in your window.

[Wesley Morris]

I don't know how you achieved the sound here.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

But you're in stereo, so I can.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Tell you how we did it. We did it in a church in Manhattan on a very stormy, stormy winter. It was, like, about to be a huge winter storm.

[Wesley Morris]

We do it on purpose.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah. We summoned the storm. We're like, we need a stormy vibe. But, yeah. So I was in this church in Manhattan and I had a close mic, but there were also mics really far away from me in the church. And we recorded with all of the mics, and then we used the far away mics first.

[Wesley Morris]

So clever.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

And then brought me in closer, closer, closer. Until I'm like in your ear.

[Wesley Morris]

I just got chills thinking about, oh, thanks. I mean. And every time I listen to it, the chills come. This is also the quote, cover, unquote, that has stayed in my mind enough to make me want to talk to you about how to interpret music. Right. Because that's what you're doing, obviously. But I'm curious if you've got a favorite song that you like to cover.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

There's one that I love singing, but I never sing it.

[Interviewer/Host]

Mm.

[Wesley Morris]

Talk to me about that.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

It is through the Fire.

[Wesley Morris]

Chaka Khan to the fire.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Sure.

[Wesley Morris]

Talk to me.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I have only done that song one time at a gig because I was sick and we had an encore, and I was like, I'm sick. We have an encore. This song is for me. Like, I do not care about any of y' all today. I'm singing this song because I love this song.

[Wesley Morris]

What about the song makes you love it even though you don't sing it that often?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I love the harmonies of that song. I love the melody of it, and it feels good in the voice. Like, I don't know for some reason. And also, honestly, I just love Chaka Khan so much that it's almost a way of just, like, communing with her for a second. You know what I mean?

[Wesley Morris]

But, I mean, so why don't you do it?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

There's A part of me that has a tendency to shy away from songs that are too well known, too popular. I don't want to do them for some reason.

[Wesley Morris]

You don't want to do a cover?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I don't.

[Betterment Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

That's what it is. I don't want to do a cover. But then I do, because I'm telling you, I've done it once and we've done it at soundcheck. I'll be like, let's just do this song really quick for me. For me, huh? But maybe it almost feels like it's like a karaoke moment for me, and it's like I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm, like, having fun at karaoke, which is different.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, I mean, it actually is funny that you bring up karaoke, because I love karaoke, and I wish I could be you.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

No, truly, like, I hear songs, and I am frequently trying to adapt them and bend them to my will, but I don't have the vocal talent or the vocal imagination. Right. I could never, ever do what you do.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

But.

[Wesley Morris]

But I also love trying to feel the thing that you feel in through the fire.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Which is whatever Shaka's going through, like, wherever her voice is taking us. I, too, want to feel that in my body.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yes.

[Wesley Morris]

And it's not enough sometimes to hear her do it. You wanna try to do it.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

You wanna get in there. You wanna be her for a second. I think it's that it's like this moment of being one with Shaka, however, and with that. Just what that song does to you. And maybe, yeah, maybe there's a part of me that's like. That's too self indulgent. I'm not doing that.

[Wesley Morris]

But what's the self indulgence? Because you like it.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah. Isn't that so terrible?

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

And I'm punishing myself.

[Wesley Morris]

The read that I'm trying. I feel like there's still this part of you that understands is that you're operating in a world that has permissions. Right?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Totally.

[Wesley Morris]

You come from a world that has permissions.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

And even talking to you about this today, it's like, I could do Jolene. I could do, like, who cares? Like, why am I stopping myself from covering? If I'm honest, is it that I'm scared that me doing it will just not hold up to the version that I love so much? So don't even try. Like, don't get your feet wet, girl. You're not ready, you know? So I think for me the process has been more finding really kind of sometimes ugly songs and taking those on. I would say there's a song that I love to sing, which is called Darkies Never Dream, which is a song that Ethel Waters sang.

[Interviewer/Host]

Darkies Never Dream wouldn't help to live that way.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I sing that song. I do that on gigs.

[Wesley Morris]

So you're talking about being attracted to singing, quote, ugly things, unquote. You've done youe Bring out the Savage In Me.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

By Velada Snow.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And that is a rough song if you're listening to it with, like, only some of your imagination, right?

[Betterment Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, what is that? Like, 1930 something?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

My blood boils with the tropic heat and the rhythm of my heart of tom tom beat you bring out the.

[Wesley Morris]

Savage in me first of all, I'm speaking for you. Like, do you even think that's an ugly song? Is that in a class of ugliness to you?

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I think maybe ugly is not the word, but I think it's a song that made me chuckle because it made me go, wow, that is really how some people do see us. And I wanna sing that. I wanna touch the. You know, I wanna touch the hot oven. Like, I'm attracted to that. So it's dangerous. There's something dangerous about it. There's something wrong about it. And it makes me laugh.

[Wesley Morris]

It's a song that makes you laugh? Just because it's so blatantly.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

It's so racist and it's so false and then also so true that people think that. Yes. And continue to think that. And it's like, oh, that song is so old. That's how people. No, they still think that. They still do that. Yes. So I go, I want to sing that. I want. My blood boils with the tropic heat and the rhythm of my heart has a tom tom beat.

[Interviewer/Host]

You bring out the savage in me.

[Wesley Morris]

This is from your album, Woman Child.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

With the pressure of a hundred million.

[Interviewer/Host]

Years you bring out the savage in me.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

I love it. Like, I have a troll in me. And that's the troll in me that wants to sing these songs.

[Wesley Morris]

Cecile, thank you.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Thank you so, so much.

[Wesley Morris]

It was an honor for me. Thanks for taking the time.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

It was Mile and the music.

[Wesley Morris]

Thank you.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

Thank you so much.

[Dan Barry]

I'm Dan Barry and I'm a longtime reporter with the New York Times. I've been here for 30 years and I've seen a lot of things change. I was here before there was a website, but one thing hasn't changed. At all. And that's the mission of the New York Times. To follow the facts wherever they lead. And if that means publishing something a government or a leader or a celebrity doesn't want aired, that's not our concern. If you believe in the importance of fact driven reporting, you can support it by becoming a New York Times subscriber.

[Betterment Advertiser]

Foreign.

[Wesley Morris]

That'S our show. Before we go, I should tell you, there's this great show that I love listening to. It's called Hit Parade. The host, Chris Melanie, has done a really good episode on covers. Like a definitional episode about covers on the charts and what they even are. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. I highly recommend you.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

You know what?

[Wesley Morris]

I also highly recommend seeing Cecile wherever she's playing near you. Just find out where she's gonna be and just have a really excellent night with one of our great musicians. Period. Okay. This episode of Cannonball was produced by Alyssa Dudley, Austin Mitchell, John White and Janelle Anderson. It was edited by Wendy Dore and Lisa Tobin. Wendy and Lisa at it again. This episode was engineered by Daniel Ramirez. It was recorded by Matty Masiello. Kyle Grandillo and Nick Pittman. Dan Powell and Diane Wong did the original music. Our theme music, as always, is by Justin Ellington. Bobby Doherty, who took the photo for our show art. Our video team is Brooke Minters and Felice Leon. This episode was filmed by Dave Meyers. It was edited by Jeremy Rocklin and Eddie Costa. This we're on YouTube, y'.

[Cecile McLorin Salvant]

All.

[Wesley Morris]

Watch and subscribe. Thanks for listening. Next week, man. Just be careful who you live next to.