Casey (9:39)

Sam My name is Vicki Patretis and as a true crime author I found myself right in the heart of Frankston doing ride alongs with the local police when the murders were happening. The seven week period between June and July 1993 was one Frankston locals will never forget. Elizabeth Stevens, Debbie Frame and Natalie Russell all lost their lives at the hand of a serial killer. And Rosa Toth came close but luckily escaped. The trail of damage caused by Paul Denyer casts a wide net. While his victim tally that we know of is three. The ripple effect of what he did is never ending. When I wrote the Frankston Murders book back in 1995, I wanted it to be about the girls as much as it was about the killer. To understand the extent of his crimes, we need to know what he took from us. And make no mistake about it, Paul Denyer ruined more lives than than what he took. His trail of destruction is wide. When he set out to act on the desires to kill that he'd had since he turned 14, there's no evidence he gave any thought to the heartbreak he would cause. It seemed nothing mattered to him more than his bloodlust. I always knew the case would draw me in to revisit it again in podcast form. But perhaps the thing that tipped the scale was a Facebook message I got from a woman called Gloria Vanes. It was her daughter whose cats were killed by Denia. Four months before the murders began, Denia broke into Donna Vane's house in Claude street in Seaford and killed her cat and its two kittens. Gloria told me that Donna never got over it. I put out a call on social media, wondering how many other victims were out there. It wasn't long before a disturbing picture of stalking and attacks on property emerged. Some stories I'd heard before and others I hadn't. These stories gave me something else to consider. There are a lot of women out there who live in fear that Paul Denyer might one day be released from jail. They're worried he might come after them again. In adding these stories to the narrative, the picture that emerges of the warning signs should serve to educate us all. We don't re examine this case just to retell the story. We do it so that we can be reminded of just how dangerous Denyer was back then and remains so to this day. And we tell the story so that around the world people can join in the bid to keep him in prison. So many people were affected by the things Paul Denyer did. I wanted to begin with a man called Todd who grew up in Langwarren. I spoke to Todd at a cafe that he runs a couple of kilometres north of the Melbourne CBD. Back in 1992. His family lived in Moat street, just around the corner from the Denyer family who then lived in Long Street, a couple of houses down from Todd's kindergarten.

Maybelline Representative (14:11)

Our kindergarten had a couple of rabbits in a hutch that was like all the kinder kids looked after. I guess it was in 1992. Earlier in 1992, we all came into the kindergarten in the morning. The rabbits were well and truly dead. They'd been cut up and some of their insides were sort of next to them. And it was just sort of left there for all the kinder kids. And obviously the teachers that came in in the morning had all seen it. The kids that have been there had seen it and it spread quite quickly that something pretty awful had happened.

Casey (14:50)

Even though Todd was only a child, he never forgot the killing of the pet rabbits. But it wasn't just the killing of them that was disturbing. It was the fact that whoever did it left them for all the children to see.

Maybelline Representative (15:06)

If you're doing that sort of thing and leaving it at a kindergarten, you're doing it to cause a reaction. You're not. It's not out in a paddock, you're out in the bush where no one's gonna see it. That is prime, where everyone's gonna see it and it's probably gonna affect people more so. And I think it was for a shock factor. It was to scare people.

Casey (15:27)

Todd doesn't know for sure whether the police were called to investigate the rabbit killings at the kindergarten. He doesn't remember any police visiting while the children were in attendance.

Maybelline Representative (15:39)

The kinder teachers, from what I remember, they took care of it. And look, whether they came after we'd all gone for the day, I'm not sure. But from my knowledge, no.

Casey (15:51)

We were fortunate to get well known forensic psychologist Tim Watson Munro to offer insights into Denia's behaviour. While Tim didn't assess Denia, he has over 40 years experience of assessing tens of thousands of criminals. We will call on Tim's expertise throughout this podcast.

Maybelline Representative (16:14)

Where's the empathy? Where's the remorse? Much to the contrary, they're getting a thrill out of it, maybe even watching it from a distance to see what the reaction is. And it's all about power, control, creating fear.

Casey (16:30)

And there are few more effective ways to create fear than killing animals at a kindergarten and leaving them out for the kids to see. Two other things stand out in Todd's mind. First, there was an incident one night in his street with a local woman who lived on her own. There is no evidence what Todd is about to tell us was Paul Denyer but a woman was terrorised in her house at night getting all of the neighbours out of their homes to come to her aid, creating fear. His involvement can't be discounted.

Maybelline Representative (17:12)

There was a neighbor of ours that had someone banging on their doors and windows late at night trying to get in and was making a concerted effort to get in. So he's banging on doors, windows, making a scene, getting in somewhere, well that was certainly to make an impact, certainly so people would know and certainly to get something out of it.

Casey (17:33)

And the other thing that stands out to Todd was that his parents were quite strict about not letting their kids leave Mote street on their bikes. Pushing at this boundary. Todd used to ride his bike across the road at the end of his street and go to the service station on Long Street. He and his brothers figured it was safe. The owners were hard working people. It seemed like a mistake when they employed a young man called Paul to work there. Unlike the industrious owners, Paul seemed to stand around and not do much.

Maybelline Representative (18:09)

From what I recall he was a very nondescript person. There was nothing that stood out about him. If you passed him on the street you wouldn't remember him five minutes later. Look, given he didn't seem to hold down a job very long. The guys that owned that service station, they worked in there seven days a week, knew everyone's names and back then it was driveway service. They used to fill your car back then. I don't think that someone that didn't really do much and just sort of stood around was really going to last very long with these people.

Casey (18:46)

The day that Todd has never forgotten, his mum pulled into the service station to get petrol. The owner filled up her tank, she paid him and Paul looked at her car and said she was good to go.

Maybelline Representative (19:00)

The guy that owned it had filled the car and he'd gone in to do the payment and mum was in the car. Yep, we're good to go. And Paul was actually the one that was like yeah, yeah, yeah, good to go. The petrol browser was still attached so she drove out with it still attached and I mean look, whether it was an honest mistake, don't know. But Mum was pretty, pretty upset and everyone was at the service station.

Casey (19:28)

Looking back on it now, you have to wonder if Paul's actions on the day were deliberate. Did he look at her car, see the nozzle still attached and tell her to go? Or is it possible the owner replaced the nozzle back on the bowser when he finished filling her car and then Paul put it back in the car just to cause mischief or worse. Luckily no petrol was spilt and no stray spark turned an embarrassing inconvenience into chaos. When Paul stopped working at the service station he got a job at Safeway Kiringal Hub. A story that I heard back when I was writing the book was that Paul Denyer had been fired from a supermarket for ramming a woman with some shopping trolleys. I didn't know any more details than that. A woman called Kate got in touch with me. It was her mother, Denia rammed and she was there and saw it happen. While her mother has since passed away, Kate never forgot the incident.

Maybelline Representative (20:39)

I was 5 at the time and my brother, he would have been three. And my mum at the time was pregnant with my second brother. And we used to always shop at Kringle Hub and on this particular day my mum had packed my brother and I in the car. We had gone shopping and we were getting out of the car and I could see. Cause we got told to stand at the boot and wait for mum. There was a guy in the distance collecting trolleys. As my mum, my brother and I started to walk towards the entrance to the supermarket we could see a guy hurrying with the trolleys and he collided with my mum.

Casey (21:22)

Kate remembers a slight incline in the car park. But if the man had of accidentally lost control of the trolleys he made no attempt to warn them.

Maybelline Representative (21:33)

He didn't say anything. I don't recall him saying get out of the way or excuse me or anything like that. It was just push.

Casey (21:38)

There was no one else around and the collision was deliberate. Kate remembers her pregnant mother being pushed roughly forward.

Maybelline Representative (21:47)

With the impact the trolleys hit her from behind. So she didn't actually see anything. But she did actually turn around when the hit happened. It hit her in the back and so we did quickly move.

Casey (22:00)

Kate remembers her mum telling off the man with the trolleys for ramming her. I asked her whether the man said anything back.

Maybelline Representative (22:10)

It was just a death stare. He didn't say anything but he sort of just looked in disgust, really. Just a look of disgust. And that icy cold death stare. It was just a look of hatred and I haven't really seen that in people ever, like, since then. But, yeah, it's a look I've never forgotten.

Casey (22:31)

What I'm always interested in is the effect on women of their encounters with Denia.

Maybelline Representative (22:38)

She was very shaken up, I remember, like she just was rattled from the whole experience because I don't think many of us have had that type of experience. And if we have, we may have felt a bit of resolve because the person may be a bit remorseful and really apologetic. Most people are if they've run into someone by accident. But this was different. This was sort of a situation that she'd never encountered before. I haven't to this day ever encountered something like that since. And it did rattle her. She changed the way we used to shop. We used to shop at Kiringal, then she used to shop elsewhere because of that whole entire experience.

Casey (23:16)

And in this brief but significant encounter, what does Kate feel about the violence and the hatred emanating from the man in the Safeway car park?

Maybelline Representative (23:27)

When you're not happy with someone, you might see someone with a death stare and they don't blink, they just stare straight through you as if you're a pane of glass. And so I do remember the piercing eyes that were glaring at my brother, my mum and I, but it was just this look of hatred at my mum for some reason. And like, we never knew this person. I'd never seen this person in my life.

Casey (23:52)

And if Kate's story wasn't bad enough, I found out that Denia rammed another woman with the supermarket trolleys. Davin was the assistant manager at the time. Paul had been at Safeway for around six months and had not even tried to impress his employers.

Maybelline Representative (24:13)

Paul worked under me. I really didn't think much of him at all. He wasn't a very good worker. He had a very short temper. He would be constantly having to go and get a mocking bucket because we.

Todd (24:24)

Just put him in the drink aisle.

Maybelline Representative (24:26)

And he'd be breaking stuff and dropping.

Todd (24:28)

Stuff and you hear him cursing and.

Maybelline Representative (24:30)

Swearing and he was really short fuse. I think he was only there about six months, working there part time. I really didn't think much of him at all as an employee.

Casey (24:42)

This time when Dania rammed another woman, there was a baby in her trolley.

Maybelline Representative (24:49)

On the day that he rammed the woman and the child with the row of shopping trials, I was actually standing there when he did it. I actually saw him do it he just, the look on his face just went straight into him and then all of a sudden, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, and started apologising. I don't know whether he intended to hit him as hard as he did, but he did knock the woman over the trolley, over the baby out of the trolley. So we ended up taking him down to the doctor's across the road medical centre.

Casey (25:14)

The woman and the baby were taken to the hospital for observation. For the managers at Safeway, it was the last straw as far as Paul Denyer was concerned.

Maybelline Representative (25:26)

Manager called me in and because I told him what I'd seen, he goes, right, we're going to sack him. You're with me, you're going to back me. I'm like, yep, no worries at all. So we got him in. He seemed to be quite calm. We just explained the situation. This woman's had to be taken to the doctors and the baby's taken to.

Todd (25:42)

The doctors and it looks like they're.

Maybelline Representative (25:43)

Both going to end up in hospital for observation. And yeah, we second, like, we were happy to get rid of him, I think because he was such a bad employee.

Olivia Lavois (25:53)

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Maybelline Representative (27:42)

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Casey (28:49)

It was at the Kringle Hub Safeway that Paul met Sharon Johnson and the two began dating. She was 17 at the time and he was 19. Five months later, Paul moved into Sharon's mother's house. A month later Paul and Sharon moved into a unit on the Frankston Dandenong Road. In the same block of units lived a woman called Julia. She'd lived there for about a year when Paul Denyer and his girlfriend Sharon moved into the unit next door. In September 1992 I moved into the second unit.

Maybelline Representative (29:27)

There were four units and they numbered one to four from the road backwards and I moved in the end of 1990 just before I went to uni. And about a year later Paul and Sharon moved in next door into unit one. Tricia lived in unit three and there were other people in unit four, but I don't recall their names.

Casey (29:51)

It wasn't long before Paul began calling into Julia's for coffee. During these visits he would pour his heart out. He was grappling with aspects of his religion when he began dating Sharon. He started going with her to the Christian church on the corner of Madden street and Frankston Dandenong Road. Paul told Julia the church didn't approve of he and Sharon living together and that angered him. Julia listened to his concerns and and offered advice where she could.

Maybelline Representative (30:26)

Certainly he was a man with issues and certainly he was upset and asking some big questions and just trying to wrestle through I guess, a fight with what he wanted, what he felt other people approved of or didn't approve of and feeling unhappy about the interactions that he'd had with the church that they had been going to. And I think he was just processing that and trying to move through it. And certainly I just put that all down to his bucket of issues.

Casey (30:59)

Because Paul's partner, Sharon was working two jobs, Julia only really saw her in passing.

Maybelline Representative (31:06)

It's just very neighbourly, waving hello, maybe a quick chat on the front doorstep. I can't recall her ever coming in for coffee, but she would have been very welcome to do so. I tended to see her when she was on her way to work or just coming back home from work.

Casey (31:24)

When Paul spoke about attending services at the Christian Centre in Madden street, which was about a two minute drive away from their block of units, Julia remembers a family connection to the church.

Maybelline Representative (31:39)

So I believe her uncle was the pastor there and they had been going there for a while and they decided to move in together. And I think the church had said to them, look, you know, that's probably not the greatest ide. How about you get married or don't live together? Paul had taken that quite poorly. And that had resulted in a lot of questioning and some anger that perhaps he felt like they ought to have approved and they ought to have been okay with his decision.

Casey (32:07)

I asked Julia if this caused a division between Paul and Sharon. I wondered if her uncle was the pastor then could the rejection of their living arrangements have been doubly difficult?

Maybelline Representative (32:22)

Didn't seem to come up that that was a dividing point between him and Sharon. I think they were quite cohesive in their decision making and wanting to be together and live next door. And I don't think the church was coming in between them. But I think that perhaps there was a loss of community for him that he had been part of and he felt a bit ousted, which I think would be painful for many people.

Casey (32:48)

Julia was a person of faith herself and she was happy to discuss these things with Paul. He would appear at her door, she would make coffee and then they would talk at length. Sometimes they played the guitar. And even though it was a time when Paul was stalking women and making weapons, Julia didn't see that side of him.

Maybelline Representative (33:12)

I never saw that in the time that we had coffee. He would come over, we would make coffee, we'd sit down on the. I had a couple of sofas. He would grab the guitar and play the guitar and just kind of mess around with chords and chat. I felt like he thought it was a safe space to just kind of talk about where he was at and what he was feeling.

Casey (33:36)

Given that she was Doing coffee with a man who was months away from. From becoming a serial killer. Did Julia notice any signs?

Maybelline Representative (33:46)

I think what's weirdest is that nothing stood out. There wasn't a sense. I didn't get any spidey sense or my goodness, you're weird. I think it certainly had a lot of issues, But I think everybody has their issues. And I think when we find what we think is a safe space to talk about those, that we do talk about them. But there wasn't anything where I thought, wow, you scare me. And certainly I've met many people over the years, Particularly my role as a nurse. I've met a few scary characters. And yet I think probably one of the scariest people I've ever met is someone I didn't notice was scary at the time. I just thought they were issue filled.

Casey (34:27)

I've spoken to a lot of people who've known predators and didn't pick it before they knew. There's often a sense of why didn't I know? How could I not have picked it? But the thing is, predators are wolves in sheep's clothing. They are very good at hiding their true nature and fooling the people around them. During this time, Julia had a couple of house guests. So hers was a place where people were coming and going. When she began noticing things disturbed around her unit, she put it down to careless house guests.

Maybelline Representative (35:06)

I would walk into the house and I would find that things had been slightly moved. Also that I had a series of like a jug and a number of mugs on the kitchen windowsill. And one of them had been knocked into the sink and had broken. And there had been leaves and dirt on the floor. And given that I never used our back door, There would not have been any of the leaves and dirt from the backyard in the unit because we just never used the door and I found them there. And because I'd had people staying with me, I wasn't particularly concerned. I just figured these things had happened by accident, Cleaned them up, and just put it down to having guests. Although I was a little bit surprised that they didn't say, you know, we're sorry for breaking that coffee cup or whatever, but that's okay. That's just the nature of having guests sometimes. And so I put it all down to it being visitors rather than it being an unwelcome visitor.

Casey (36:10)

But if it had never occurred to Julia that someone had been coming into her unit when she wasn't there, her thinking changed dramatically when she arrived home. After a trip to face a disturbing home Invasion.

Maybelline Representative (36:26)

I'd been away interstate and had come home quite late of an evening and I had had some people staying at my unit, so there were about three people staying at the unit. And when I got back, I couldn't get inside the unit because they had the chain across the door. So I ended up going back to my then fiance's family and staying the night with them and coming back the next day. When we entered, I realised that things had been moved. And when I asked the people who were there, why are the things moved or did you move that thing? They said, oh, no, it was. It was there when we had been coming in and out and it was just different bits and pieces around the unit had just changed position. And then I started to look at various photos that I had around the unit. And in all of the photos there had been a slash in a cross shape across my neck. There was a message carved into my piano and there were slash marks across a tall boy. And the more I looked, the more things I found. I found that my doona had been shredded, that my mattress had been stabbed, that the dress that I had worn to my engagement was slashed through. And even later, going into different drawers in that tall boy, finding passport photos and things stabbed and shredded. So it just seemed to be this voyage of discovery. And then I would find another thing that had been knocked over or smashed or cut through.

Casey (38:06)

The more Julia discovered, the more bizarre the break in seemed.

Maybelline Representative (38:12)

It was incredibly bizarre. And just that I would keep discovering new things and think, oh, well, that's another thing. And I was fairly young at the time, I would have been 19 or 20, so I was fairly naive. And there was a sense of unreality about, I guess, the viciousness and the anti woman kind of message that it was sending, the slicing through the neck and the shredding of the bedding and I mean, that's all very personal and it's all very. It's really violent. But I wasn't used to that kind of, you know, that was not a characteristic of anything that I'd had experience with before. So it was very new and it was very unsettling. It was deeply unsettling.

Casey (39:05)

Once she had found out how the intruder had gained access, the point of entry only served to make the break in more frightening. Whoever had entered her unit had been coming in and out for a while.

Maybelline Representative (39:21)

And it wasn't until later when I discovered that the fly wire in the kitchen had been sliced at the bottom and along each side so that you could just roll the fly wire up and come into the kitchen through the window, that it all started to make sense. And then I realised that probably he had been coming in and out of the unit for a while, because when I realised that the photos had been slashed and all of those things had occurred, then we started looking more closely at how might someone have gotten in, what was going on. And because it was only really three or two bedrooms and a living area in a kitchen, they were tiny units, there wasn't much to look at. And then all of a sudden it occurred to me, well, hang on a minute, the fly wire's cut. That's how someone's been getting in and out. And then that forced me to look back and say, well, okay, that's where the mud on the floor came from and the leaves on the floor and how the cup got broken and why things have been moving around my house. And I haven't really been paying enough attention with that front part of your mind that actually has a good hard look at things instead of just brushing it aside and attributing it to something else.

Casey (40:37)

Julia reported the break in to the police.

Maybelline Representative (40:41)

They sent out someone sometime later to do fingerprints, but I'm not sure that that netted any great result for them.

Casey (40:50)

As Julia continued to sort through her unit to assess the extent of the damage the intruder had caused, she found a knife in its box up the top of her wardrobe. It was one of the engagement gifts she had set aside for when she got married. Julia realised this was what the intruder had used to slash her clothes and her bedding.

Maybelline Representative (41:16)

You know, the Wiltshire stay sharp kind of knives, the really long ones. We had got one in as an engagement present and I realised later that's what he had used. He'd been up in the wardrobe, pulled out the knife and then slashed everything. So I went back to the police station and said, I think here's your weapon of opportunity, if you like. And the response was, well, yeah, okay. So they added a little bit to the police report and that was that.

Casey (41:50)

Julia told the police she thought it was her neighbour Paul who had broken in. There were a couple of really good reasons for this. Her friendship with him had cooled when he began avoiding her. And because the intruder had come in through the kitchen window, which was at the back of the units, it meant that access was limited to those living in the block of units.

Maybelline Representative (42:15)

Just a feeling that it was Paul next door. And I think part of that was because of the access through the back courtyard, in that he would be able to gain access. There wasn't a fence between each unit as such. And I think because he was probably one of the few people who would have had access to the rear areas of the units to be able to come in through the window. I think at the original report I was a bit concerned that it may have been Paul but then when I took the knife into the police station to get them to add it to the report and I said I really think it's my neighbour and this is why he was just really unusual when I was leaving and it seemed to be suspicious his behaviour and very different to the way that he'd behaved to me before then.

Casey (43:06)

Despite the violence of what had happened in her unit, Julia felt that for the police it was just another break in.

Maybelline Representative (43:15)

It just seemed to be another break in report. I guess at the time I thought well yeah, there's probably a lot of break ins that happen and this is probably very run of the mill for police to be processing this kind of complaint.

Casey (43:30)

But of course it wasn't run of the mill. When someone's house is broken into it's usually for the purpose of robbery. But nothing had been stolen. This was an attack. I think now it might be seen in a different light. We know much more about these kinds of things.

Maybelline Representative (43:50)

I guess even now you're just bringing that up. I never thought of it as anything but a break in isn't that unusual I suppose because actually he didn't take anything as far as I know, just damaged a lot of things maliciously and personally. Never took a thing, not really a break in.

Casey (44:10)

With the damage that was done in her unit, Julia could tell it was a personal attack against her. But as a young woman couldn't imagine how or why anyone could hold such a grudge that they would do this to her.

Maybelline Representative (44:25)

It was a very personal thing and then it was like who hates me? Not that I was not, you know, not unlovable because I think horses for courses. There are people who will love you and there are people who won't love you. It wasn't that I was special but there was a sense of this very personal thing happening and that it was very personally directed at me and I couldn't work out why anyone would put themselves out so much to be so vicious.

Casey (44:55)

Julia made immediate plans to leave the unit after the break in that was so personal and so inherently violent it was impossible to stay.

Maybelline Representative (45:08)

I remember calling the landlady and just saying look, this thing's happened and I need to move out and I'm a bit concerned that it may be Paul.

Casey (45:18)

Paul continued to act oddly right up to the day Julia was packing to leave.

Maybelline Representative (45:25)

When I was cleaning out my unit, I had had my aunt there to give me some assistance and she'd left. And so it was just me taking out the last few boxes and doing a bit of cleaning. And he arrived home and normally I'd get a wave and a hello and all of those things, but he actually almost raced inside and shut all of the shutters, the front blinds and everything so that you couldn't see in or out. And that was unusual. And that just seemed to be confirming my thoughts that it was him that had done those things.

Casey (46:06)

Despite her suspicions, Julia was at a loss as to why her neighbour would have broken into her house and taken a knife to her things.

Maybelline Representative (46:17)

I hadn't done anything. I'd been only ever hospitable and welcoming. It is an odd thing for any person to have done, to have behaved in that way. I don't think there's a thing that I did that could have caused it or have changed it.

Casey (46:35)

While the uniformed members that Julia reported to at the Frankston Police didn't seem to focus on Denia as a suspect in her break in, he had certainly come onto the radar with the local CIB detectives. Veteran detective Cole Clark had an encounter with Denia he never forgot.

Maybelline Representative (46:58)

Maybe 12 months, two years prior to him committing these murders. I remember I was working afternoon shift in Frankston and I was called to Lang Warren, a shopping centre, and where the uniform blokes had been called by one of the shopkeepers, that someone had been seen bleeding outside one of the shops and had taken off. I turned and we found a blood trail that led from the shops down a couple of the streets and along the footpaths, but it then disappeared. I remember that we then got a phone call while we were investigating this that a male person had been admitted to Frankston Hospital.

Chris McCann (47:39)

I think it was with a stab.

Maybelline Representative (47:41)

Wound to his leg, upper leg, I think, from memory. We went to the hospital, tried to speak to the person that was involved, and it turns out that it was Paul Denier at the time, had suffered a leg wound and was being stitched up in hospital. We tried to speak to him. He remained mute at the time and wouldn't tell us how he got the wound or where he got the wound or the circumstances and how it happened. In hindsight, years later, when he started killing people and he admitted that he was running around cutting the throats of animals around Langwarren at the time, I surmised later on that while he was trying to kill an animal, he'd actually stabbed himself in the leg. And of course he wouldn't assist us in any way as to what had happened so we couldn't take the matter any further. He signed a statement, he wanted no further action involving the police in this matter. So we made inquiries the next day around the area if anybody had lost animals or had anything killed. Nothing came forward. And I remember speaking to one of the brothers that night trying to get.

Chris McCann (48:59)

The brother to find out what had.

Maybelline Representative (49:00)

Happened from him and the brother said he wouldn't even talk to me about it. So, yeah, you look back in reality on that and you say, well, he obviously had problems in those times and this was early in the piece and which he admitted to later on that he'd been doing it. Gee, you sit there and think, well, maybe if we had oppressed it further or whatever and got into his mind, we may have stopped these murders, but I seriously doubt it. But it sort of things run through your mind.

Casey (49:30)

These encounters with Paul Denyer certainly left their mark on police and civilians alike. Once Julia moved out, Paul Denier took his coffee visits down to the next unit where Tricia Vanes lived and her sister Donna occasionally stayed. Sadly, Donna passed away in 2018, but her mother, Gloria Vanes, wanted to tell Donna's story.

Chris McCann (50:00)

She moved into Franks and Dandenong Road. Yes, into it was a big block of units and he was in the front one with his fiance. Very nice guy actually, Very nice guy, very neighbourly, would do anything for you. Always said hello when he saw me when I went to visit Patricia. He had been in at Tricia's for a coffee, I think mainly after Donna moved in there, she went to stay with her sister for a while and he did go there for coffee.

Casey (50:28)

I asked Gloria for her impressions of Paul Denyer.

Chris McCann (50:32)

He always said hi to me in the driveway, a big smile. He just seemed that one big, chubby, happy go. Lucky bloke. Never could have picked him otherwise for just a nice neighbor.

Maybelline Representative (50:47)

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Casey (51:29)

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Chris McCann (52:33)

Then she moved into the street behind Tricia. It was roughly behind the next street down or something into a unit with her partner Les.

Casey (52:41)

At the time, Donna, Les and their baby daughter had lived in the unit in Claude street for just three weeks when Paul Denyer broke in and changed the course of Donna's life in what was always regarded from a distance as a lucky break. On the night Denyer broke in, Donna wasn't home. Les worked during the day at his regular job and at night he would supplement the family income by delivering pizzas. Donna often went out with Les on his pizza delivery but on the night of Friday 19th February, she said she would just stay home and bath the baby.

Chris McCann (53:24)

Donna got bored very very easily. Always bored and she always went with him. She used to go everywhere and he was surprised at that. Now she said not and he sure you'll be bored? She said no, can't be bothered, she'll just bath the baby.

Casey (53:40)

Donna bathed the baby and left the water in the tub. The night dragged on and she was pleased when Les dropped back home in the middle of his shift.

Chris McCann (53:51)

Anyway, she must have been thinking I wish to gone, I wish to have gone. He came back, he was on the way to deliver a pizza and he called in and said are you bored yet? Do you want to come? She said oh yes. So she dried the baby, put her in the car and off they went. I think it was about 8:30 ish or something and then I think when they got back, I think it was 11:30 for some around then what Donna.

Casey (54:16)

And Les found when they returned home was something so cruel and violent it was beyond belief.

Chris McCann (54:24)

At first she didn't go into the unit cause she was getting the baby out the capsule in the car and Les went to open the front door and he had called her, I think she said she heard him saying, oh my God or something like that. A bit of a shock response. And he said to her, donna, don't come in.

Casey (54:42)

The reason Les didn't want Donna to come in was because he had seen the place had been broken into like Julia's break in months earlier. Nothing had been taken. The intruder had just left carnage in their wake. When Les opened the front door, there was an overwhelming smell and he discovered their cat horribly slaughtered on the floor in the kitchen. Someone had written Donna, you're dead and the name Robin on the wall in what looked like cat's blood. The names in blood meant it wasn't a random break in. Donna assumed the reference was to her dad, who was Rob, but sometimes called Robyn. After calling the police, Gloria was the next to get a call.

Chris McCann (55:32)

Donna rang and I was shocked, but I'd been more shocked if I knew the reason her place had been broken into because then it was just her place had been broken into. We didn't know who it was and the cats. And I thought, God, who would do that? So we were a bit sort of, why? Who would do that? And obviously somebody knew them because the names were on the wall, so they knew who lived there. Well, Donna didn't and her dad was Rob, Robin, whichever. I said, well, look, do you want to come here, grab some clothes and that? She said, no, not at the moment, the police are here.

Casey (56:06)

One of the police called to the break in at Donna's Flat was Chris McCann from the newly formed Police Special Response Squad. The squad was a brand new iteration of the Major Crime Squad and had been very busy in their first two months of operation. Chris himself had arrested nearly 50 people in that time.

Todd (56:31)

So our squad was the Special Response Squad, which had been formed as a result of the disbanding of what was called the Major Crime Squad in those days. Primarily we were established to investigate aggravated burglaries, robberies on homes. Any break in where there was any suggestion or evidence of a weapon being used, we would be called out to that job. And I think at the time we'd only been operating for, I'm going to say, two months.

Casey (57:03)

In the early hours of the morning of Saturday 20th February, Chris McCann arrived at Donna's place in Claude Street.

Todd (57:12)

We were called out early in the Morning and I went there with my crew and we met up with the Frankston detectives and it was just a brown brick unit in the middle of Frankston. And when we went to the scene, I do recall that there was like a bucket that was underneath the rear window. When we called crime scene forensics out and photographs, there was blood marks or blood stains from gloves that you could clearly see on the rolled down blinds. And afterwards when the forensic guys used their ninhydren, the ultraviolet light, they picked up one stone boot impressions all across the kitchen floor and in the laundry.

Casey (57:57)

Even though 30 years have gone by since the job in Claude Street, Chris has never forgotten the sight that he was met with when he walked into the flat. One of the Frankston detectives pre warned him before he went inside. Here's what the scene looked like and be aware, this is distressing.

Todd (58:19)

After you were told that somebody had been in there and had gone on a rampage with a knife, he said, you need to be prepared because it's a mess in there. He's killed some cats and some kittens. And so as you walk through the front door, you're immediately hit with this horrible stench. And then really the horrible image of seeing a female cat that had been completely gutted. And at that time on the walls as you walk in through the door, there were death threats written on the wall using the intestines of the cat. And then in the bathroom there was kittens that had had their throats cut and that they had been thrown into the bath. And then as you move through the unit, I remember seeing a half naked picture of a woman attached to the cat with stab marks that had gone through the picture into the cat. And then there was a bassinet in the main bedroom. And in the bassinet there were more pictures of half dressed women with stab marks through the pictures into the bassinet and then behind one of the cupboard doors there was, there had obviously been some pictures there and there had been flash marks from a knife obviously where then you had slashed through the photographs and pictures. On the back of the door in.

Casey (59:59)

The lounge room was an orange baby bouncer sitting in the middle of the floor on a pink and blue checkered rug. Next to it lay a baby's rattle and a disposable nappy. On the white wall of the lounge room next to the television, the intruder had written what looked like dead don in a red substance that looked like blood. In the kitchen, written in blood above the stove were the words Donna, you're dead printed in block Letters next to the words was a bloodied outline to suggest that the cat had either been held or flung against the wall. Among the wall writings was the name Robin. In the bathroom were the two kittens, floating one at each end of a half filled bath. They had turned the water rust coloured with their blood. The attack on the kittens had occurred in the laundry over a plastic laundry basket of baby clothes. Blood had splashed everywhere, spraying high up the walls and around a packet of kitty litter. In the cat's blood on the floor was a distinct shoe impression. In the main bedroom, the intruder had ransacked the cupboards and drawers and sprayed a can of shaving cream all over Donna's mirror. And through the crew creamy swirls, the detectives could make out the words Donna and Robin. One of the cupboard doors had been covered in pictures of swimsuit models. These had been slashed and only a few jagged corners of the pictures remained. The intruder had also slashed the cupboard door, leaving deep gouges in the wood. Oddly, the door had swirls of dirty dried water marks, as if the attacker had wanted to clean the surface for some reason. Had he written another message on it, then changed his mind? Outside, the point of entry was clear. The intruder had climbed onto a nappy bucket around the back, forced a window open and climbed through. Left behind on the blind was a gloved hand impression in blood. For Detective Chris McCann, the scene was like nothing he'd ever seen before. Police officers see the worst of the worst. But there was something about the break in at Donna's house that stood out for Chris.

Todd (62:43)

I'd been to numerous homicides and I'd been to numerous violent crimes, but this was particularly different because of the violent nature in which he had just slaughtered the defenceless animals. And you wouldn't see that normally unless it was a frenzied attack by an ex boyfriend on a girlfriend perhaps. But when you saw it just it seemed to be completely out of place. With a normal break in at a house, if they were breaking in to steal something, you would normally then go on a rampage and kill the animals in the house and then write death threats. So no, I'd never seen anything like that before.

Casey (63:32)

Forensic psychologist Tim Watson Munro offers his insights.

Maybelline Representative (63:38)

The way you describe that crime scene, the disemboweling of the cats, naked women. Now some would say perhaps this is the indicators of a person with a psychotic mind, somebody that's out of touch with reality, because I think probably the layperson that's crazy behavior and it is, but it's not medically Defined or legally defined insanity. He clearly knew what he was doing. His focus was really to not only act out on that fantasy, but create fear. Vicarious power, vicarious control. And it's all planned and premeditated. It's not shambolic thinking in the way that you normally get with psychotic people.

Casey (64:21)

One of the reasons Chris still remembers the case, aside from the violence, is perhaps because Donna and Les had a newborn baby. Gloria Vanes remembers Donna and Les taking the baby and leaving the scene to the police.

Chris McCann (64:39)

They went to stay with Les's mum. She lived in Prankston as well.

Casey (64:43)

Donna needed Gloria's help. Once the crime scene was processed, the cats needed to be transported for post mortem examination. And the police apparently didn't do the transportation.

Chris McCann (64:57)

When I got there, it was just a madhouse of police vehicles and light.

Casey (65:02)

Gloria brought a friend with her. Gloria's friend Sandy was a vet nurse, and on the way the two had stopped off at a local vet to try and procure body bags for the cats, which were essentially black plastic garbage bags. When Gloria began telling me about collecting the cats, her own cat came into the room and started meowing. It was a bit haunting, to be honest.

Chris McCann (65:31)

We got to the house and the police, she said, don't you come in? I said, no, I'm coming in. I stayed in the car. Oh, there was reporters and God knows what went on. She went in, she came out with them in the bag, put them in the boot and she said, they're hopeless, the police are hopeless. She said they had them in a clear plastic bag. She said it was horrible. She said they could have put them in something else. So she put that into the black bag and we had to go all the way to Surry Hills. Apparently that's where the police would take it. There, that's the veterinary pathologist and they can tell what the blade size or whatever, the type of knife that may have been used or whatever. So we trotted off to Surry Hills that night.

Casey (66:14)

Leaving Donna's flat with the murdered cats in her boot, Gloria and her friend ran the gauntlet of the press.

Chris McCann (66:23)

When we left with my friend and I to take the cat's bodies to the pathologist. So we came out the drive, you know, they're up against the car with their cameras and the reporters.

Casey (66:36)

After Chris McCann and his crew had finished examining the scene, they went around to Les's mum to interview the young couple. It's hard to imagine anyone hating a young woman, woman with a baby so much. They would commit such a violent act on her cat and kittens. The detectives were in no doubt that had Donna and her baby been home when the intruder broke in, they too would have been murdered.

Todd (67:06)

Because it was so unusual what had happened. We had asked them because generally with something like this, this is. This is almost like a crime of hate, that you either hate the actual human or you hate animals or both. And so we wanted to get an understanding about who they thought may have had some sort of indebted against them. But these are young kids without any history of criminal involvement, so it wasn't something they were unable to come up with names. And they eventually gave us a list of about 10 people in there. I'm not sure if in that list Paul Denier's name had been mentioned. I remember afterwards she said that there was somebody strange at a place that she had visited. It was either her sister or a friend lived in Frankston, and that turned out to be Paul Denier.

Casey (68:05)

The problem for Chris in investigating the Claude street break in was, was that while they spent a week on it, they were inundated with other jobs. There was no opportunity to focus purely on the crime that targeted Donna Vanes and her cats.

Todd (68:23)

We investigated it, I'm going to say, for a week, maybe a week and a bit off and on. But at that time we were having jobs every single night. So even on that day, when we attended that particular job, I was meant to be on a arrest day. The following day, I was called out at one o' clock in the morning for a particularly serious and violent home invasion again. And so we'd basically gone from that job being there all day, finished at 8 o' clock on Saturday night. But by 1 o' clock in the morning, I was already called out to another job on Sunday morning. We didn't have enough resources, so we were really spreading ourselves thin.

Casey (69:03)

The police did the best they could with the resources they had, but the investigation went nowhere. During our talk, Gloria told me something that I hadn't heard before. She remembers a neighbour seeing the intruder arrive.

Chris McCann (69:21)

I think it was a lady. I don't think it was in the units. I think it was a house opposite or something that spotted a car. I don't know what time he turned up there. Say nine, ten. It's sort of late as you maybe have a look. Oh, who's that? I do it here. A lady. I'm sure they stood across the street, had seen the car pull in, but it was a neighbor anyway, close enough to describe what he was wearing. And it was a big bloke. I don't know how much she saw but she definitely said the checkered shirt and the tracky pants and he was quite a lot, which he was tall and big, solid.

Casey (69:57)

The description very much described Donna's sister, Tricia's neighbour Paul. Gloria remembers Tricia seeing something the following day that made them all suspect that Paul was the intruder. Gloria remembers that Tricia saw Paul removing blood stained carpet from his car.

Chris McCann (70:18)

Patricia called saying that she'd seen him in the driveway ripping the thing out of his car and obviously knew about what happened to Donna and her cats. So she was sort of putting two and two together and she was thinking I wonder if it was him and she says what should I do? That's when we put the two and two together. A blood stained carpet in the car plus a neighbor reporting someone that fits his description. And Tricia said that to me, she said that report the lady gave the neighbour fits him exactly.

Casey (70:50)

Donna's home invasion happened 30 years ago and Gloria is vague on some of the exact details but she remembers the family told the police about their suspicions about Paul Denyer.

Chris McCann (71:04)

The police did get told, but I think it may have been her dad. I'm not sure it was either her or her dad because the message I got back after that was the police said oh, you can't just go knocking on people's door and you know, accusing them or wanting to search. And I said what? I said look, I'm no expert on police things with evidence like if it was just a blood stained carpet, well fair enough, could be anything. You could have been hunting on rabbits or whatever, I don't know. But the fact that the blood stained carpet and the description that is Paul to a T is enough to look into. But they wouldn't, apparently they were quite abrupt and said we can't just go knocking on people's door.

Casey (71:50)

I asked Chris McCann if he had any idea of the description of the man that Gloria had told me about. The man in work boots, tracky pants and a flannelette shirt.

Todd (72:02)

No, I mean the people that I worked with and myself like we were meticulous with our notes and our follow up. Had we had a witness that said that they had seen somebody been dropped off there at those units is something we would have followed up. Having said that, it's quite possible that if she did give that information she could have given it to somebody from the Frankston CIB who would have also been heavily involved in investigating that matter.

Casey (72:34)

And Chris is right, often detectives coming in to do the detecting and the Local uniform or the local detectives are utilised to do the door knock. If one of the neighbours did see a tall man wearing boots and tracky pants and a flannelette shirt, she may have told it to the local police, not the members of Chris's squad. Nonetheless, Gloria is certain that her family knew at the time that Paul Denyer fit the description of the man the neighbour saw.

Todd (73:07)

After that particular we were just going from one job to the next. It's quite possible that the main contacts for that that would have remained with the Frankston Police and the Frankston detectives.

Casey (73:22)

So for now that remains a bit of a mystery because the Special Response Squad was inundated with jobs and clearly under resourced. They just didn't have time to stick with any one case when the next one was only hours away. And of course it was the early days of computer usage and programmers that LinkedIn connected information was a while away.

Todd (73:51)

You also have to remember in those days the systems of connecting evidence between systems despite us going to one system, which at that time was going to system called Leap, having the information reports all connecting was still very early days.

Casey (74:11)

It's a good point. We can't judge the information systems of three decades ago by what we take for granted today, not being able to.

Todd (74:21)

Connect information electronically and saying, well, somebody had seen such and such on this night. That's a similar description of the sort of person that we're looking for. We have evidence of Blunsdon boots and there's a description of a person wearing a flannel edged shirt, et cetera, that type of stuff. There wouldn't have been the ability at that point just to connect dots like that. It would have been pieces of information in different locations.

Casey (74:52)

How was Donna in the aftermath of the break in?

Chris McCann (74:56)

She just totally went downhill, Totally went downhill. Oh, she tried to be at the start sort of nonchalant and normal Donna, but she just kept going on and on. I used to say, oh you were lucky you had a guardian angel. He's in jail, he says, yeah, but when he gets out. And it just seemed to be all she focused on.

Casey (75:18)

When Gloria contacted me she just went, wanted people to know what Donna's life was like after the break in. The ongoing worry stayed with Donna until she died.

Chris McCann (75:32)

She's had a hard life ever since this all happened. Her life was consumed with what if, what if? And she kept saying to me, and she was just her hope for years, just worried, worried, worried when this happened at her unit with the animals getting killed and that she wouldn't Even go to the toilet in the house on her own. He lays her to walk through and wait at the toilet door and come back into the lounge with her. She was just petrified.

Casey (76:01)

I wanted you to hear the words straight from Dania.

Maybelline Representative (76:06)

I brought you to her place and killed all of her cats. What do you do that for?

Chris McCann (76:10)

I went there to kill her.

Maybelline Representative (76:11)

The shimmer who?

Olivia Lavois (76:13)

You went to Thomas flat in Claude.

Maybelline Representative (76:15)

Straight to kill her?

Casey (76:17)

Yeah.

Olivia Lavois (76:17)

And she wasn't home?

Maybelline Representative (76:19)

No, she wasn't home.

Olivia Lavois (76:20)

So you broke in and what'd you do?

Maybelline Representative (76:24)

I killed her cat. Sorry.

Olivia Lavois (76:27)

How'd you kill her cat?

Maybelline Representative (76:28)

Stab.

Casey (76:35)

On the next episode of the Frankston Murders.

Maybelline Representative (76:38)

It was just this lack of understanding.

Casey (76:42)

The only thing I noticed was the trolley boy.

Chris McCann (76:45)

There was a young man standing in the shrubbery in the bushes near the hall. He said, oh, don't worry, he said, I won't let anything happen to you.

Maybelline Representative (76:52)

Often they have a certain type of female in mind. Straight off, it wasn't. This wasn't right.

Olivia Lavois (77:06)

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to hear the rest of the Frankston Murders, just search for it. Wherever you get your podcasts. It's a Casefile Presents production created by the same team behind Casefile with the same high standards you expect from us. This is Paige Desorbo from Giggly Squad.

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Casey (77:40)

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Maybelline Representative (77:51)

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Casey (77:53)

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