Catalyst with Shayle Kann

Episode: How insurance can narrow the valley of death
Date: October 15, 2025
Host: Steven Lacey (Latitude Media)
Guest: Jamie Daggett (Lead Advisor for Storage and Fuel Cells, Ariel Green)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the vital, yet often overlooked, role that insurance plays in scaling clean energy technologies—especially as the industry confronts the notorious "valley of death," where promising innovations struggle to move from lab to full-scale deployment. Through an insightful conversation with Jamie Daggett of Ariel Green, the show digs into the technical, commercial, and policy risks of clean energy ventures, the evolution of insurance products to address those risks, real-world case studies, and the state of market maturity.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Jamie Daggett’s Background & Path to Insurance

• Family Legacy in Clean Energy
  • Jamie grew up surrounded by science and environmentalism: “My dad was a chemical engineer, environmental lawyer...my uncle and aunt working at Los Alamos at the national labs in fusion...I always kind of thought that I would get into some environmental path.” (00:22)
• Stanford & the Early 2000s Valley Buzz
  • Jamie attended Stanford at a pivotal time: “Tesla had just built the roadster prototype...startups were adapting laptop batteries for the grid...it was a really exciting time for me.” (01:28)
• Startup Experience & Transition
  • Five clean energy startups and bankability report writing gave Jamie a frontline view of risk: “It motivated me to dive into the clean energy industry and get into startups and fuel cells, electrolyzers, batteries...12 years launching, testing products as a wrench turning mechanical engineer.” (01:28)
  • Realized that unlike tech, energy startups often face pay decline buyouts rather than massive exits. (02:01)
  • Moved on to insurance after being courted by Ariel Green: “All those years inside risky startups and then assessing risk from the outside set me up perfectly for the role.” (03:10)

The Valley of Death in Clean Tech

• Defining the “Valley of Death”

  • Jamie: “It’s that brutal gap between proving a technology works and actually getting it financed at scale… many clean energy companies stall out.” (06:00)
  • VC and government grants help early, but project financiers wait for proven, bankable tech. Insurance acts as a bridge via creditworthy backing.

• Why Insurance Matters

  • Insurance lets a “high credit rated insurance company” (e.g., Lloyd’s of London via Ariel Green) underwrite performance guarantees so that “investors and lenders don’t just have to take their word for it.” (06:00)

• Which Technologies Are Crossing the Valley Now

  • “The ones trying to get across the valley...non-lithium battery suppliers, long-duration battery suppliers, many of the bioconversion companies…not proven, at risk.” (07:31)

Insurance Products for Clean Energy

• Two Main Insurance Offerings (10:20)

  1. Supplier Warranty Backstop:
     • “We backstop the supplier warranties...if their equipment fails, they need to replace equipment. If the supplier goes out of business...continued coverage for buyers.”
     • E.g., Pawan bankruptcy: “As soon as they filed chapter 11, the buyers reached out…ours insurance policies worked exactly like they were supposed to.” (10:20 - 12:04)
  2. Project Revenue Coverage:
     • Geared toward lenders and project buyers to “maintain revenue at their project...if there’s a shortfall in production or extended downtime.” (10:20)

• Real-World Impact: The Pawan Case

  • Pawan, a major storage integrator, failed soon after receiving a $200M injection.
  • Invenergy, a large developer, had required Ariel Green insurance: “When POWEN went bankrupt, Invenergy didn’t lose their safety net and can now file claims directly.”
  • Others without insurance were left exposed. “That’s exactly where Ariel Green comes in.” (12:04 - 14:49)

Technology and Commercial Risks

• Early-Stage Technical Risks

  • Failures in lab-to-field transition: “There’s a bathtub curve in early risks. Equipment might fail...mass defects of manufacturing...software, hardware.” (04:21)

• Warranty Mismatch Risks

  • “PV modules...standardized on 25 or 30 year warranties. But most all of those companies have not been around for 25 or 30 years. Same thing with batteries.” (04:21)
  • If a supplier fails, liabilities persist for project owners.

• Status Quo: Supplier Risk Shouldered by Buyers

  • Most buyers rely on extended warranties or self-insure, but “many companies go out of business...fewer than 20% of leading solar suppliers from a decade ago are still around today.” (14:54)
  • Ariel Green’s approach: Focus due diligence on whether the technology itself is likely to last.

• Notable Quote:

  • “The hard truth is a supplier may not be around for the life of the project.” (14:54)

Insurance as an Enabler, Not Just Protection

• “On one hand, insurance is about protection...But just as important...is the confidence it builds. Most clean energy suppliers...don’t have a credit rating, so that makes it hard for capital to flow...insurance effectively lends its own credit worthiness to the project.” (09:07)

• Notable Quote:

  • “Insurance isn’t just protection, it’s an enabler.” (09:07)

High-Profile Incidents and Lessons Learned

Moss Landing Fire (17:03)

• $400 million in insurance losses, an industry wake-up call.
• Improvements since:
  • System design: Move to containerization and set-spacing.
  • Fire safety: Enhanced mechanisms, shift away from NMC to LFP chemistry (lower fire risk).
  • New codes from National Fire Protection Agency (NFPA 2026): Better fire/gas testing guidelines.
  • “With so many more projects being built today, even rare events like fires or explosions will still continue to happen. But each one pushes the industry to raise the bar a little higher on safety.” (17:03)

Policy and Market Risks (19:14)

• Tariffs, new “Foreign Entity of Concern” rules, shifting tax credits all add “friction” but aren’t new.
• “Battery projects are designed to last 20 years or more...plenty of ups and downs along the way. And our job is to help protect the owners and investors for this long horizon.” (19:14)

Long-Duration and Emerging Storage Tech

Long-Duration Storage (20:36)

• Ariel Green already insuring deployments (e.g., Eos).
• Proof required: “Proof of operation at commercial scale, typically six to twelve months before we provide coverage.”
• Market is moving: Expect large-scale, 100MWh+ projects by 2026–2027. (21:44)

Watching New Storage Trends (22:45)

• Sodium-ion batteries: “We see sodium ion playing a part and we’re already interested in seeing how that’s going to participate.”
• Supercapacitors and thermal storage also under discussion.

Maturing Market: Attitude Toward Risk

• Companies are “growing up.”
  • “Within the last year or two, the counterparts that I interact with...have titles like VP of Risk or VP of Insurance and Risk...they’re now focusing on long-term risk planning and hiring in experts in house...” (23:50)
  • “It feels like...the energy storage market is growing up because they’re starting to plan for the future rather than just fighting to stay alive.”

Memorable Quotes

• On Industry Maturity:

  • “Ten years from now, we’ll look back and think we were just in early days of clean energy, because it’ll turn into just energy. It’s not clean energy anymore. It’ll just be how things are done.” – Jamie Daggett (25:02)

• On Risk and Insurance:

  • “Insurance is another tool that we can use to help grow the clean energy market. I do feel like it plays sort of an unsung role behind the scenes, enabling big change.” – Jamie Daggett (03:52)
  • “Being a battery supplier is a brutally tough business. Margins are thin, technology is evolving fast. There’s lots of competition and risk, whether technical, financial, operational. And that’s exactly where insurance can help blunt this impact.” – Jamie Daggett (12:04)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Jamie’s Clean Energy Roots & Early Career: (00:22 – 03:28)
• Introducing Insurance in Clean Energy: (03:28 – 04:13)
• Risk Categories in Clean Energy Tech: (04:21 – 05:41)
• Navigating the “Valley of Death” & Role of Insurance: (06:00 – 08:54)
• Types of Insurance Products for Clean Storage: (10:20 – 11:42)
• Pawan Bankruptcy Case Study: (11:42 – 14:49)
• Technological and Commercial Lifespans: (14:54 – 16:54)
• Moss Landing Fire & Safety Evolution: (17:03 – 18:54)
• Policy/Market Risk Management: (19:14 – 20:20)
• Long-Duration Storage and Tech Trends: (20:36 – 23:38)
• Industry Maturation & Culture of Risk Management: (23:50 – 24:52)
• Reflecting on Industry Growth: (25:02 – 25:58)

Conclusion

This episode clearly illustrates that insurance is no longer a marginal afterthought for the clean energy industry—it is a critical enabler for scaling innovation, attracting investment, and ensuring project resilience. Through candid stories and real-world examples, Jamie Daggett and Steven Lacey show how the insurance markets are adapting to help the next wave of clean technologies survive and thrive as energy transitions from “clean” to just the new normal.