← Catalyzing Classroom Change
Catalyzing Classroom Change
Episode 1: Systems-Level Change Through Bottom-Up Innovation
00:58:13
Kareem Farah, CEO and co-founder of the Modern Classrooms Project, hosts a conversation with Dr. Carmen Coleman, Chief of Transformational Learning and Leading at the Ohio Valley Educational Cooperative, and Thomas Arnett, Senior Research Fellow at the Clayton Christensen Institute, to explore how teacher-led innovation can lead to systems-level change.
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- [00:08]
A
Welcome to Catalyzing Classroom Change, a podcast from the Modern Classrooms Project. So we're going to go ahead and get started. First of all, if you don't know me, my name is Karim Farah. I'm the co founder and CEO of the Modern Classrooms Project. And you are actually joining the first of what we hope to be a monthly series titled Catalyzing Classroom Change. The whole idea of this is to be sort of a discussion podcast style format where I facilitate a discussion with some incredible leaders that I respect and I've worked with and have run into in the K12 education space to just talk about how we actually create change in classrooms. I think a frustration I've had, and I know many leaders have had across the country is this feeling like, yes, we're talking about change, we're talking about the vision of what we want to create in classrooms and in districts and in schools, but are we actually seeing things move across a continuum? Are we actually seeing the change happen and is it sustainable and is it scaling? So that's the point of this kind of series and this first session, the first one we've ever done, is called Systems Level Change through Bottom Up Innovation. And the whole idea today is to really have a comprehensive conversation about how we can create change that's systematic within a school, within a district, within a state, within a country, but by starting with Bottom Up Innovation, by starting with the power of what it means to create innovation from the grounds and then bringing that up and scaling it up. And I have two of my favorite people on this particular webinar podcast session with me, two people I've known, I think, since I've really been doing this work at the Modern Classrooms Project. And I met them at very different stages in my career and they're people I respect who understand what it means to create change, have seen a lot of different types of change in K12 education and are going to bring some really powerful voices to this discussion. So before we get started, I want to introduce the folks I have on this particular session. I'm going to start with Carmen Coleman. I met Carmen Coleman because Carmen saw our model in action in Jefferson County Public Schools when she was the Chief Academic Officer in there. We met. I immediately knew that Carmen understood what it meant to to just create change within a community and to think differently about classroom instruction. Now she's. Now I'm going to say your title, right, because you got quite the title. Carmen, you are the Chief of Learning and Leading at OVEC in Kentucky. I want to give you Carmen, the time and space to just introduce yourself, share a little bit about your journey in the K12 education space to date, and then I'll introduce Tom. So go ahead, Carmen.
- [02:51]
B
Sure. So I started my career as an elementary teacher. I taught fourth grade in the classroom where my mother taught first grade. When I attended elementary school in that same building, went on to become an academic coach and then a principal. Even though I said I was never going to do that and really had no interest in that. Then I had an opportunity to go to Fayette county, which is Lexington, Kentucky. That's the second largest district in Kentucky. As a director of elementary schools,
- [03:32]
C
I
- [03:33]
B
then went to a little community called Danville, an awesome place in Kentucky. We have about 2,000 students. Served as superintendent there and then spent some time at the University of Kentucky and then most recently found myself as chief academic officer in Jefferson county, which is the largest school district in Kentucky and about 29th in the US depending on the day. Now I serve in a role where so my career has really been about questioning things that didn't make sense to me. Even as a young new teacher, things in school that we did just sometimes didn't make sense. And so I asked questions. I probably got on a lot of people's nerves, but especially since Danville, I've really been focused on change and knowing that if we school as the way it is, is impossible and obsolete. And so yeah, I'm excited to talk about that. Now I have the opportunity to work with 15 districts in a region. JCPS is still one of those. So close touch still with them. And I'm excited to be here.
- [05:02]
A
Thanks, Carmen. Extremely excited to hear your thoughts on all these questions. And just so everybody knows, like we haven't rehearsed these questions. I'm just going to tell you all that now. I'll share a little bit more about this format, but we're hopefully going to talk about some provocative ideas in education and Carmen's voice in this space and your deep desire to create change is something that I think we're all excited to hear about. Tom knows me better than most people do in K12 education. That's because Tom saw me teach. So when I first met Tom, Tom, I don't actually recall how you found out about us, but you came and visited Eastern Senior High School where myself and my co founder had really created the modern classrooms model. So you saw it in its earliest stages. And I actually remember touring you around the building showing you our classrooms that we had initially kind of supported. And the teachers who were Implementing. So you've actually seen our organization grow from very, very small, much, much bigger than it was when you first saw it. And I was always just captivated by your perspective and understanding of the larger landscape of K12ED, particularly in blended and personalized learning. So, Tom, do you want to give a brief background on who you are, what you've done in the space, and your experience?
- [06:11]
C
Sure. And let me say, first off, it's a pleasure to be here with both of you. Looking forward to this conversation. So, in terms of background, I guess I'll start by saying I got into education coming out of my undergrad degree as a middle school math teacher in Kansas City Missour. And as a teacher, I felt very committed to making a difference for my students, being the kind of teacher that could help improve their. Their opportunities and their life trajectories. But I really struggled. And some of that is just the struggles inherent of being a new teacher. It's always hard no matter. No matter who you are in those first couple years, but in some way. But I. I really got stuck on some of the struggles. Seemed like they were more systemic and that I would just have to try and outpace the system in order to make the difference I wanted to make. So I often tell the story of, you know, in one class my second year teaching, I had one kid who had lots of support at home, had all the things you, you know, a kid needs to do well in school. Um, and he was bored and he was misbehaving in my class because I wasn't challenging him enough. But then at the same time, in that exact same class, I had this other kid who, when I would drive home after school each day, I'd drive through his neighborhood and I would see him bouncing from one house to the next, looking for, where am I going to sleep tonight? Where am I going to get dinner tonight? So the kid who was dealing with homelessness, and he only came to school maybe like three days a week, often showed up late. When he came to class, he was super earnest, wanted to sit down and just was like, teach me. I'm ready. But almost everything I said just went right over his head. And I remember just thinking, like, how is it that I'm supposed to even get a read on what these two students need, let alone like. Like just them feeding out of them is a challenge. But then I've got a whole host of students that range in between those two. And even if I had a good read on where they're all at, how do I, in the One hour I have class with them, really give them what they need. And you know, I, I went to professional development sessions on different instruction, differentiated instruction, and it sounded like a great idea, but actually implementing it and implemented in a way that would really tackle these challenges just, it, it seemed practically impossible. So I left teaching kind of with the thought of like, okay, I can either like spend my career really trying to outpace the system, or maybe I can find a way to get involved in helping improve the system and found my way to the Clayton Christensen Institute. Our organization was founded by a guy who studied Clayton Christensen. He was a professor at Harvard who studied innovation across a lot of different sectors. And one of the things he'd studied was K through 12 education. And using his theories that he developed about how innovations unfold, he developed some insight around, well, what could lead to more student centered, learner centered K through 12 education. So I found out about the institute, found my way here, and have spent roughly the last 10 years studying kind of for, from a systems level, what are the conditions that make it so that new models of education that are better than the ones we have right now can emerge, can improve over time and can eventually scale. So they're not just like niche solutions here and there, but, but widespread across the system. So that, that's the work that I tackle. And I will say, I don't remember how many years it was ago, Karim. I think it was maybe 2018 when we, when we met. Tell me if my dates are off there. But visiting Kareem's classroom was one of the most exciting things I've done in many ways because, you know, reflecting back on my experience, he was a high school math teacher, I was a middle school math teacher. And I walked into his classes like, wow, I wish I had had this when I was teaching because this is exactly the solution I was looking for as a teacher. So anyway, we, I think we've been, you know, had a lot in common and a lot to talk about ever since. And I'm excited to be here.
- [10:13]
A
Fabulous, thanks. Thanks, Tom. And obviously for the folks out there listening, it's clear, hopefully why I brought these two individuals on here. You have a fabulous leader who has led school systems than a fabulous leader in the research space to understand what it really means to create this type of change. So let's dig in into this discussion. This is going to be a back and forth. If you're in the audience, like drop questions in the chat, we may answer them just like alive as we're going. That's Kind of the point. This is supposed to feel like you're just in a living room with some folks sharing some cool ideas about education that I can hopefully, hopefully inspire change. The first thing I want to pose, I'll pose this first question. We'll start with you, Carmen. Like, what's the standard way that innovative ideas scale in K12 education? I think that's kind of a big question that oftentimes we don't actually ask enough. Like when something powerful is introduced to the system, how is it scaled? How is it usually scaled, at least historically in your experience?
- [11:07]
B
Yeah. So formally, typically what I've seen is there's a district, you know, a district plan for, you know, training teachers, you know, spreading the word, providing support, and that is semi successful. But I have a friend who talks about spread instead of scale. Right. You've probably heard that that's teacher to teacher and that's the most, that is the most impactful way that I've seen things spread. A teacher starts to really be interested in something and the kids really start to like what they're experiencing and word gets out and then others jump in and that's, you know, there are lots of, we know a lot about scale strategy, but innovation, true innovation, I think really scales teacher to teacher.
- [12:17]
A
I love that. And I know that's how you found out about the modern classroom project. You were popping into a classroom and didn't even know what it was in JCPS because someone learned it through the free course. Tom, in your experience, I mean, you've seen a lot, you've studied a lot of different things that have scaled in your experience, like what's the most common way or ways in which an idea, a tool, a curriculum, an instructional delivery model will make its way into the system and actually reach a lot of users.
- [12:42]
C
Well, I think, I think it's worth actually parsing out a question a little bit and saying like, how do people usually try and scale innovation versus how does innovation actually scale? Right. Because often the way that people try to scale is through top down approaches. Sometimes it starts at the federal level, sometimes it starts at the state level, sometimes it starts with district administration. There's some idea that maybe has some research backing, maybe not, but there's a case made that education should do this or should adopt this thing or change in this way. And then people from the top try and create programs and incentives to try and get the system to adopt those innovations. One of the interesting things about education though is that I think for good reason, teachers have a lot of autonomy you know, they're constrained in terms of their hand, of their roster, they're handed their, their schedule, they're handed their curriculum. They're assigned to teach a particular grade level or subject. But when you close the door, you know, no one's checking on you to say, you know, did you teach lesson 3A at 2 o' clock on a Thursday? You know, it's, it's kind of up to you to figure out, what do my students need? And I think that it's important that it is that way because students are human beings. They're not like raw materials where we can just put them through some standardized process and just make sure the teachers are following the steps in the checklist and the kids are going to get educated. You know, teachers need to have the ability to say, okay, what do my students need? Where are they at? What, what's the best way to design a lesson? Design activities that will meet their needs. But that also makes it so that top down reform is really hard. It doesn't, doesn't work. Is it because teachers have the autonomy in some ways, say like, ah, I don't know if this makes sense. Okay, I'll check the boxes that they're telling me to check to not, you know, be in the bad graces of my administration. But there's a big difference between teachers adopting because they're truly enthusiastic about this is really solving my problems versus teachers just adopting with the mindset of like, yeah, this too shall pass. You know, new administration comes every three to five years. I just have to wait this one out and you know, get back and then eventually I can just get back to doing things the way I know it works for me. So I will say this. One of the things I find fascinating about modern classrooms is how it's not a top down approach, it's really a bottom up, bottoms up approach. We did some, some research a handful of years ago where we interviewed teachers to ask them why, you know, why do you adopt a new instructional practice or a new tool? And we found there were four different, what we call jobs to be done. Or basically four different pathways, different narratives that lead to adoption and different teachers are going to be in different circumstances at different times of their career and in those different pathways, some of those pathways lead to huge appetite for big changes. Some of the pathways are like, no, I just, mostly what I'm doing works. I just want incremental improvements on what I'm doing. Some of the, one of the pathways is, hey, this doesn't make sense to me. But I don't want to be in trouble for pushing back, so I'm just going to kind of go along at the minimal compliance level. So anyway, what I find fascinating is instead of top down approaches that try and push an innovation into teachers that may be in any of those different pathways and some of them are going to have more appetite than others. Modern classrooms I think was really designed for solving teachers particular problems and helping them and then also designed in a way that it's, it's not about pushing it top down, it's about making it available so that when it truly does solve a teacher's problem, it gets traction. And I'll say the broader research on like education reforms that actually stick shows that the ones that truly stick around are the ones that have to solve teachers practical problems, offer a, you know, frame the problem for them and offer a compelling solution and the tools to go with that solution. And if it doesn't do that, it doesn't actually stick around.
- [16:47]
A
Yeah, I mean, you know, one thing that we found I think at the Modern Classrooms project consistently is like we need to be able to provide actionable, actionable solutions to teachers. And it doesn't, it can't feel like it's going to go out there for a year or two and then disappear. I think teachers we know are spread so incredibly thin and when we introduce a new idea and that new idea just feels like it's part of the new strategy that needs to get executed and everybody has to do it, there's going to be lackluster implementation of that idea. And there's not a deep belief that idea is going to stick around because we know that strategic plans and visions often change. So that idea of solving a problem for teachers is really interesting to me. But I also think there's something really interesting about the stickiness of an idea. And like how do you actually get an idea to stick and resonate with folks? Carmen, when you've seen things scale in your communities, what, what usually leads to ideas sticking? So let's just assume, I think we all agree here that there are clear limitations to top down innovation. If we just say at the top, if Superintendent Carmen Coleman goes, you know, starting tomorrow, everyone's going to build instructional videos, they're going to self pace their lessons and then they're going to grade for mastery. I don't think Carmen Coleman would stay there for very long.
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B
Right. It would be not zero, right?
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A
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So how do you make an idea stick? Like what are the ideas that really do stick for educators and why do you think they stick?
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B
I think that, I mean, that was a great point about it solves a problem. You know, when I started as superintendent, I was so fortunate. I had an incredibly forward thinking board who really gave us the permission and really the expectation to go out there and see what progressive schools are doing and let's figure out what school needs to be today. And so we had all this freedom. My teachers, we went, you know, we went to High Tech High school, we went to the high school in New York. I mean, we were changed by those experiences. And I remember after those visits, my teachers would say, that's incredible. It's incredible. But how do we get above what I call the turbulence? You know, how do we get above. Kids are still going to have to take standardized tests. They're still. And so we used to talk about what, what is the solution? There has to be a solution to tame that turbulence. And this is the solution with the Modern Classroom project. I mean, I know we're talking about bigger innovation, you know, all kinds of innovation, but that was a solution. It is a solution. And when I talk about it, what I say is this is number one, this is not a mandate. In fact, if you're not super interested in feeling like a seven year old on Christmas Eve, go away from this. That's not. But if you're excited about this, let's explore. You know, it's not a have to, it's not a curriculum, but I see it as a turbulence tamer so that you can, you don't have to figure all that stuff out. The management and the, you can get above the turbulence to do what only great teachers can do. That's what sticks. I mean, teachers joy is what sticks. Right. And that's what we have to have. And now more than ever, I mean, people aren't, people aren't, you know, the teachers aren't coming. I mean, they're, we're, we're facing a problem that's going to get worse before it gets better. And so that's what sticks. What, what helps me tame the turbulence so that I can get to why I thought, the things I thought I would be doing when I signed up to be a teacher. Right.
- [20:59]
A
Well, and I think that's often when we talk about teacher burnout in particular, I think we really misdiagnose the problem sometimes. My experience has been both. Personally, when I was experiencing burnout, I know I experienced burnout really in year four of my classroom experience, which actually is kind of in line with a lot of the research it's like that's when it starts, right? You've been there for enough years to know what it means to be a teacher and the challenges you face. You haven't stuck around long enough to find out how to make it sustainable. And you start to be like, wait, can I last doing this work? And one of the things I always found just really alarming was like how unsuccessful I felt at what I thought I was supposed to do in the classroom, right? I would wake up every day and just kind of look around and go, I thought I was supposed to come in here and work with students, building strong relationships. I thought I was supposed to come in here and actually work with students in a data driven way to address their lack of understanding on a particular concept. But what I'm really doing is behavior management. I'm getting frustrated. They're getting frustrated. So you kind of leave and feel like, all right, people aren't excited about my classroom. I'm not excited about doing this, and I can't do this for the rest of my life. And this is not my vision for what teaching and learning is, so maybe I need to think of something different. And I felt like a failure. And it wasn't because someone told me I was a failure. It's just kind of obvious how you feel in that setting. You just fundamentally feel like a failure. I think one thing you've brought up because, Carmen, that I think is really, really important. When we saw our model scale initially, we brought people to our classrooms. The first folks that ever learned the modern classrooms model, some of which are on modern classroom staff today, they watched the model in action to see it. And I think that was part of the way that we calmed the turbulence. And I guess my question is, how do you show that type of change in a bottom up way? Like, how do you create the conditions for people to actually see what the innovation is supposed like? And this is either either you, Tom, or Carmen, like, how do you create the conditions to actually translate something on the grounds that's really positive into something that people can see and then have an appetite to actually tackle and take on?
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B
You know, for me, I mean, it's been really simple in that I've gotten a lot of traction by putting a bright spotlight on the things you want to see and then making it safe to try, you know, and saying just try. I mean, like, it's not going to get worse. You don't have. We don't have anything to lose here. Just try and getting them there to see it, letting them talk to the teachers. I mean, teachers. I mean, I haven't been in the classroom now for a million years, I feel like. And so, you know, I'm not. Who's credible to a teacher, really? I mean, other teachers are. Who need. Teachers need to talk to one another, you know, and they're brilliant. I just. I have a. I'm teaching a graduate class of teachers who are preparing to be principals. I mean, they. They are brilliant. They're brilliant humans, you know, and they need to be able to talk.
- [24:17]
A
Totally. I think elevating teacher voice is so, so powerful. I've even found myself, you know, I'm out of the classroom now since 2019. And yes, I can speak about my experience and my journey, but it's not as powerful as a teacher who's currently experiencing challenges. And that goes for any type of innovation. Hearing from an educator who's live solving problems that other educators are facing, I think creates that community and that confidence that this is something that I might want to try in a really powerful way. Tom, anything to add on that? Because I have a specific question to ask you about resistors, but anything you want to add on that?
- [24:52]
C
Well, I just want to share that what you both just articulated really resonates with some of the research out there. There's some research from sociology that I think is articulated really well by a sociologist at the University of Pennsylvania named Damon Santola, where he talks about how we have this notion that things spread just through exposure. The more billboards you see, the more Facebook ads you see, the more celebrity endorsements, the more likely you are to adopt something. But he says that that holds true for things like memes, things where there's no risk in adopting it and sharing it. But whenever adopting something involves risk, whenever it involves uncertainty, whenever you're putting whether it's money or time or energy on the line or your reputation on the line, the best predictor of whether you'll adopt is your social network. None of us have the time to research everything down to the detail. And so often what we do, and sometimes it's really subconscious, is we look around and say, like, are there people like me that are doing this? Because if I see enough people that are like me doing this, then. Then I. Then it seems credible. But if there's not a lot of people like me doing this, I'm gonna. I'm gonna be skeptical. And like me really depends on the context you're in. Right? Like, you know, if you're about talking teacher, it's other teachers that are teaching in Context similar to mine. You know, if, if you're, if it's in your family, it's like other fathers or other mothers that are like me. And so that's what I think is, is often overlooked is that most people to. When they're making that decision, like, should I pay attention to this, should I jump in? It really depends on do I see other people like me, people I know, people I relate to that are also already doing that. So I think that's a, a powerful principle of adoption and spread and scale that is often overlooked.
- [26:45]
A
Well, and I think what's so. I mean, we see this so consistently because not only do we scale, you know, in districts, but we will scale in a region. Right. So we'll scare across the state of Indiana, we'll scale across the city of Chicago. And the way that implementers clump in groups is so interesting because just like you described, there's a community of practice that organically builds off of a social network. It's three people going, hold on, I think we want to do this and I want to do this with you. So let's get after it. And then that starts to create buzz. And we'll often also see kind of the lone wolf, which is really interesting because you need the lone wolf who's out there, who goes, I am willing to take this risk regardless of whether someone's jumping into this with me. And those folks are so incredibly inspiring because they'll bring an innovation to a community that really doesn't have an appetite for it yet. And that can be not just teachers, it can be principals too. Like a principal. Principal can be the lone wolf in a district who's like, no, we're bringing this into this district right now whether we like it or not. And it creates that kind of snowball of change that I think is really, really important. And by the way, as a teacher, I totally understand this. Like, that kind of community reliability is so huge. If I didn't feel like others around me were willing to adopt something or endorse something, I knew I was taking a big risk. I was afraid of what admin would say. I was afraid of what parents would think. I was afraid of what students think.
- [28:15]
C
Right.
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A
You have to build a tough skin to be able to do that. It's not easy. And we often talk about modern classrooms and different folks elevate the model. But I don't think I would have ever done this model if it wasn't for my co founder being one floor up. We were together in this and in many Ways. He was the original lone wolf. And I knew he had a community of practice of other folks across D.C. who were thinking along these lines. So I think that's really, really compelling. Want to talk briefly now about resistors? Because if I'm someone listening, a district leader, a teacher, I'm going, cool, bottom up. Sounds great. Just give it to people who like it. They'll do it. But then we ask ourselves the question, how does that achieve systematic change? And how do we deal with folks who don't want to engage in that innovation? And it's in those discussions that you'll hear folks, they can be funders, they can be district leaders, they can be state leaders who will say no at some point, have to mandate it. You have to say to everyone, you got to do this. And I obviously have some resistance to that idea. I think our whole organization does, because we want to make sure that folks who implement our model feel supported and feel like they're opting into this type of innovation. But there's a legitimate point there, like, if it really is what's best for kids, if it really is what's best for students, like, what needs to be done to get the folks who are on the fence, or not even on the fence, like, completely against an idea to actually buy in. So I'm just kind of curious around, and this is a hard question, and if you think it's easy, let's talk offline, because we need to figure that out. But I guess my initial question is, what do you think gets a resistor to kind of move across this continuum and assume that just a teacher telling them about it didn't work? Right. Because we know that we can do that, but that doesn't get everyone in the room. And I think if you answer this question, you may not have a larger theory around this, but maybe an example of when a resistor has actually made the switch on something. Someone who you knew in the room consistently was like, no, I'm not about it. I don't get it. I don't buy it. And then something converted their kind of opinion on this into believing that this was something that they wanted to get involved in and did. Obviously not specific to modern classrooms. Carmen, maybe you can start. And this can be leaders or teachers, obviously, because I know you've worked with a lot of principals and a lot of district leaders in addition to teachers.
- [30:43]
B
You know, it's interesting when you ask that question. I have really not invested a lot of time in naysayers. I have, in my experience, there have been so many who have been willing that if I can get to all of them, that has been my focus. I sure at some point you do have to deal, especially someone who is just trying flat out to sabotage. But the longer you can stay away from a mandate, I think the better the likelihood of success. I believe most people want to be on a winning team. And as teachers, even the most difficult of personalities, they went into this for some reason that surely had something to do with wanting to do awesome things with kids. I mean, I have to hang on to that belief anyway. And so you're going to start to see, I mean, kids act different in this class than in mine. So you just start to be, you know, so I guess so to answer that, and even in jcps, I mean, we have a collective bargaining union. They're a very powerful union in the country. Really. And, you know, just like with this, I mean, I said from the start, this is not a mandate in any way. It's not a curriculum. It's not. It's just if you want to, and if you don't want to, that's okay. But that alone, I think makes. Makes people super curious. Like, well, there is a. There is a human. There's an element there. It's that fomo, right? Oh, my gosh, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna miss something, you know, So I. I just. I think there's a long way to go before we need to start mandating some things. I mean, you, you know, it all. Context matters, but I just think we have a. There's a lot of people that would come along if they. If they knew more about, you know, what's happening.
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C
Totally.
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A
I. And it makes a ton of sense to me. One thing I often tell folks is like, let's focus on getting everyone that's willing first. Sometimes I think we jump fast from, like, the first movers to defectors. And maybe let's focus on expanding the pie of the coalition of willing, because there's obviously a ton of difference between, hey, I'm on the fence, and hey, I'm thinking about it. And, hey, I actually actively disagree with this. And I don't know that we actually capture the full kind of pie of people ready to do this type of innovation before we go into resistors. Tom, any thoughts for you on sort of the community of folks that. That push back who don't want to do this type of innovation and like, what. What gets those folks going and examples where you've seen that work?
- [34:07]
C
Yeah, well, let me start with a story. From this research we did on teachers that were adopting new practices and new tools. One of the teachers we interviewed was initially in that pathway or that job to be done. I mentioned that was about, I'm only doing this to comply. I'm only doing it because it's been mandated. She was a kindergarten teacher. She had started her career a few decades ago, then left teaching for two decades to go raise her own children and then came back to teaching. When she started teaching, computers in schools were not a thing. And when she restarted, when she came back, her school was doing this blended learning stuff and she was not a tech person. She was like, this just seems like a nightmare, seems like a headache. Why are we putting computers in a kindergarten classroom? They should be cutting paper and coloring and stuff like that. So she went along with it. She didn't, you know, she was fresh back from, you know, returning to the profession, didn't want to, you know, didn't want to create a scene, pushing back on it, but she was really not into it. And initially it was just like, okay, I'll wheel out the laptop cart for 30 minutes two days a week, pound my head against the wall while I deal with login issues and then as soon as those 30 minutes are done, put them back in the cart and get them out of the way so we can get back to what real teaching and, and classroom instruction looks like. So super resistant. Very much in the camp of like, I'm just waiting this out till this too shall pass. And as much as I can, I'm gonna just do teaching the way that I know it should be done based on the way I'd done it for years. But what clicked for her and where she shifted from that like compliance oriented pathway or job to actually being excited about it was when she saw success. It was when she saw, hey, I'm using, I'm using this program called Lexia and it's telling me where my students are at with their reading. And it's actually really informative because now I can, I can be smarter about how I form my small groups and I can set up a rotation model where some kids go on computers. And that creates the time for me to pull kids and work in small groups. And so when she found it actually helping her, that totally shifted her mindset. So I think that piece of like you have to help teachers feel successful if you can get them, you know, if a top down mandate happens and it can get people to success fairly quickly, they'll buy in. But if they don't feel success Very quickly and don't get some early wins, they're going to just have even more resistance now. I think an important caveat on all of this though, is that success is in the eye of the beholder. It really depends on your circumstances, your struggles, what problems are you trying to solve? Again, going back to this research, I want to paint a contrast between two of the different pathways. One of them, and both of these led to enthusiastic adoption, but to solve very different problems. The first pathway, and this was by far the most common one, was, hey, I've been teaching for a good while, I've got it under my belt, I've got, I know what I'm doing, I feel successful most days, but I know that there's, you know, a handful of lessons every year that don't go well or there's a handful of kids that I just don't reach well. So I'm not interested in like overhauling what I do. But if you can give me like little things to add and enhance my instruction, I'll adopt them. But here's the key. It's gotta be manageable. It can't be, you know, make me do hours and hours and hours of PD and throw out a bunch of the stuff that I know works to adopt this new thing that I don't know about that wasn't going to fly. So had to be, it had to be manageable and it had to help them do what they were already doing better. In contrast was this other pathway that was far less common. In this other pathway, teachers did have the appetite to completely overhaul the way they'd been doing teaching and learning, to adopt things like flexible blended learning, mastery based instruction. But to make that leap, to actually be willing to let go of things they've done in the past and adopt something totally different, they really had to have significant struggle. They didn't get there because, oh, I have a lesson plan that doesn't go well or I have a couple students I can't reach. It had to be like, I am so frustrated with this job that I'm ready to quit unless I can find something new. So one teacher outside of Chicago told us he was an algebra teacher. He was like 10, I think, years from retirement. On, on paper his school was fine, his classroom was fine. Kids took his, you know, took his class, took their tests, got into college, got good test scores on the state exams. But he was like, math feels soulless because all I'm doing is doing problems on the board. They regurgitate back what I've shown them on a test and then they totally forget it. We're not talking about how math is this powerful language. We're not talking about conceptual what math means. We're just memorizing algorithms and then forgetting them as soon as the test is done. And he was so frustrated. He was like, I'm ready to just, to just quit and go be a truck driver until I can reach retirement. Well, he wasn't a super tech savvy guy, but he had a colleague that went to a conference and discovered this thing called mastery based learning or competency based learning. And they thought, huh, this is interesting. But it also seems totally impractical because the, the version of competency based they learned about was a lot of manual paper based stuff that just seemed like, how, how do you actually keep up with that? But then they found out about Khan Academy and thought, hey, can we pair these two things together in a way that makes it doable and actually transform the way we do our classrooms? Let students be on individualized paths, going at the pace and engaging in the materials in the way that most ignites their passion. And that was a game changer. And he said, even though I didn't like technology, I wasn't into technology. The technology helped me solve this problem of making math truly, like, meaningful and engaging for my students and that. So he took off with it. Now I got a little long winded explaining these two paths, but I want to say, you know, again, to go back to the thing I said earlier. The problem is really in the eye of the beholder. So success is in the eye of the holder. Something that helps you succeed in one pathway may not be the thing that helps you succeed in the other pathway. And so top down mandates can create a lot of pushback because like, maybe it solves a problem for one pathway, but it's just a headache to the other pathway. Now that you've created this headache, but you've mandated it, now you get huge pushback that eventually may like upend the whole thing. So again, to kind of reiterate on early things I mentioned is like, you've gotta, if you're gonna do things from the top, it has to lead some for some early wins and early successes in the way that people define success given the particular circumstances and their struggles that they're in. And if not, mandates aren't going to work. And you really, you know, your best approach is how do I solve the challenges, the struggles for one pathway, Let people opt in when they see that this truly is a solution and then expand it to help solve problems in other pathways. And one last thing, I'll say, sorry I've been talking so long on this one, but it's exciting is I think Modern Classrooms actually offers this really interesting solution where it's a solution that helps those people that are ready to like, I'm going to quit. I'm so frustrated. I'm going to quit unless I can overhaul the way I've done things. Modern Classrooms is that type of solution. It's like a radically new way of teaching. But the way that you've put, you know, developed the modern classroom model and created the resources around the model and the supports around the model that your nonprofit offers helps it work not only for those that are ready to transform, but the ones that are a little bit more like, no, I just need incremental improvements that are manageable to adopt. Like you've made made this radically different model way more manageable to adopt. So it can actually solve for both pathways.
- [42:06]
A
Well, you know what's interesting is every time I speak to someone who's new to our model, particularly someone who is considering scaling a district leader, the most shocking data point is that the average educator who opts into our program has 14 years of classroom experience. And it's shocking to folks when they hear that. It's not shocking to me. And I think it's, it's clearly aligned to the research you just described, which is an educator with 14 years of experience has a deep understanding of the limitations of what high quality instruction currently looks like in school systems. So they're looking for something that is going to allow them to throw this out. Right? The, the amount of times a fabulous implementer will come to us and say, hey, I've been teaching for 20 years and the only thing I'm mad about is that I didn't know about this earlier.
- [42:56]
C
Right?
- [42:57]
A
Because they've been kind of hustling in this really challenging model and now this new one allows them to execute. Additionally related to that, I actually think that, like, getting an early win is a really interesting concept that's hard to pull off because I think it's so true. And it's actually true in our classrooms. So a lot of times teachers will launch our model and the first units will be a struggle because the students are frustrated. This is something new. They're confused, they're flustered. The teacher's trying to figure out what do I do with myself, my space and time. And what I often will say when I'm coaching teachers, particularly on site visits, is start simple and give the students an easy win. Because if they get an easy win on the model, then they're going to go, ooh, I get it now. Now I can tackle that harder content. But if it starts with really rigorous content that's super hard to tackle and a brand new model, you're sort of combining two things at the same time and you're obviously going to default to convenience. You're obviously going to default to the easier old school approach when that happens. So I think that's really, really interesting. And I think there's a lot to learn, honestly in the modern classroom side around how we can capture that better in our work. I want to talk. Well, first of all, if you're in the audience and you want to drop some questions in the chat, look, we're going to jump to questions in five minutes because naturally, whenever this happens, I completely lose track of time. And we're 15 minutes away from this webinar ending. But what I want to talk about briefly real quick is just like if I'm a district leader, I might be a little bit frustrated in hearing about all this bottom up innovation because I might be thinking, great, let's say we build this coalition the willing, but what's my role in this equation? Like what do I do to actually make this a living and breathing part of what happens in my school system? Or I might be a state leader thinking the same thing. So, so Carmen, just in your eyes, what's the role that districts leadership, state leadership is supposed to play in a particular environment like this? Like how are, how are school and district leaders and state leaders supposed to turn this classroom level innovation into something that actually leads to scaled innovation? And then after this question, I'm seeing some questions pop in the chat, so I'm going to start addressing those as well.
- [45:14]
B
You know, I think the role, one thing I have found interesting over the years in being a leader, but really before that too, when I was, you know, work as I've worked for different leaders, teachers want the leader's approval. Overall, they want the leader's approval. Even if they think the leader is terrible, they want their approval. So one thing that leaders can really do that seems really simple is just get in there and learn. Get in there and talk to the teachers, talk to the kids, find out, you know, what's happening. I mean that be, be very present and understand what teachers need. I mean, I always say, and again, I'm not in my own classroom now, but the day that I lose that perspective is the day that I am
- [46:12]
C
out
- [46:15]
B
you know, you've got to be present with kids and teachers to know what is happening and get out of the way. I mean, that is sometimes even, I mean, I'm as progressive, I feel like, as it gets and I work with a team right now of the most incredible people I've ever worked with over, I mean, just amazing. And, and like I have to get out of their way sometimes, you know, so, you know, I would say learn, support, highlight and things will spread like crazy, you know.
- [46:56]
A
Yep, yep. Tom, any thoughts on what the role of the leader is in this scenario to really create this space? Because I think Carmen's spot on part of it is actually getting out of the way. It's like endorsing, but creating the space for the teachers to actually be the loudest voices. Because a lot of times we don't do that.
- [47:15]
C
Right.
- [47:15]
A
The teachers don't have the loudest voices and they're the innovators. Are there any other things you can think of the district leaders and state leaders need to do to create the conditions for this type of change?
- [47:25]
C
Well, Carmen mentioned this earlier, but I think the idea of permission is really important. I think teachers are often afraid of like, well, if I do this and it doesn't go perfectly swimmingly at the first attempt, am I going to get dinged? Am I going to get, you know, criticized? Is it going to affect my job evaluation? So I think in addition to like making it available, encouraging but not mandating, you know, giving teachers just the COVID that like, yeah, you know, you may not have it like running perfectly right out of the gate and that's okay, you know, you have the room to try this and be supported as you're figuring it out. I think that is a really key piece as well.
- [48:11]
A
I totally agree. I think people don't talk enough about the fact that to innovate it takes time and that you're going to make mistakes. And I think that educators quite frequently live in fear of that mistake happening. And then the consequence being applied and just giving educators the true and honest ability to take risks without feeling like there's a consequence is so powerful. And I can't tell you how many times I've talked to teachers who were like, the first two units were the most miserable units I've ever implemented. And now I feel like I'm running the best classroom I've ever created. And you were able to do that because you were given the conditions to fail forward, where if you weren't, you would have pulled right back within the first, you know, Two, three weeks of trying out something new. And that's really a problem.
- [48:58]
B
Leaders. Karim, I think this is really important to say you've got to give teachers opportunities to talk to one another and share and that does not happen enough. And I believe that's why education has been so slow to change in many ways. Teaching is isolated and you've got to give it. In fact, one of my student from my class who is a newish teacher is on tonight, I think, or he was. And he, he is so excited about the modern classroom project. So of course when he talked to me I was like, ah, let me tell you what I know about that. And I so hope his principal will give him the opportunity to share. And I believe he will. And I, you know, we've got to listen to the teachers and give them a network and a place to talk and share.
- [50:01]
A
I could not agree more. It's actually so hard to do by the way. I think we need to be honest too with leaders about that's not an easy task. Schedules are packed, people are busy. Like one of the things we've noticed is we'll go out to a district where we've trained 200 teachers. But if you ask a teacher, they have no idea who the other 200 are. And when we think about that, it's like that's a hard problem to solve. It sounds simple and easy initially. Like what do you mean there's just 200? But how do you actually get those people to connect and collaborate? Not as easy as it appears, but I totally agree. It's so, so impactful. I want to get to some of these questions because we have nine minutes left. The first one's from Tamiko. Hey Tamiko. First of all, I know Tamiko quite well and she was a fabulous implementer out in Tulsa. And Tamiko asked the question what types of changes? I mean this is true before I even read it. I'm like, get ready folks. What types of changes would you say need to happen within teacher preparation programs to empower teachers to make school wide or even system wide change happen? Anyone want to take a shot at this? I have a lot of opinions sometimes on teacher preparation and I don't necessarily know that I want to say them all right now, but any initial thoughts from you all about what needs to change with teacher preparation?
- [51:16]
C
I mean a simple one would be offer part of the preparation at least options for teachers to learn about things like mastery based learning, blended learning, self directed learning. You know, make those things that teachers get exposed to and can try out in their teacher teacher preparation instead of things they only find out about later when they're in the field struggling. I think that's, that's not like the end all, be all solution, but I think that is a really simple first step that a lot of teacher preparation programs can take.
- [51:51]
A
I mean, I agree. I think one of the things that I find very interesting about teacher prep programs is they're actually not about learning different ways to teach. They're very much so, like almost like a history textbook. It feels sometimes where you're learning about all these series of facts and research that feel very distant from the classroom experience. And I feel like a lot of times educators leave teacher prep programs blindsided by the realities of what actually happens on the grounds, which I think is really challenging. Anything to add there, Carmen? I know we've talked about this at length before.
- [52:20]
B
Yeah. I just think, you know, it's so important for teacher prep programs to have strong relationships with the school districts where they're, where their, you know, graduates go and, and, and keep a relationship so that, you know what's happening, you're able to know what kinds of things that, that, that they say they need once they're out and what are the district, what are the district folks saying and the, you know, principals saying that they need?
- [52:52]
A
Totally. I think that's spot on too, like direct communication with what's actually happening on the grounds as well. I want to elevate a question. Hey, Jasmine, Jasmine in Australia, by the way, I love this question and I think it's something we don't talk about enough. And it's challenging, but it's so critical and can actually lead to some of this tipping point of scale. What about buy in and investment from parents and guardians? How do you recommend navigating those relationships when occasionally it comes with lack of understanding of teaching and learning? I think this is such an interesting question. How do we bring parents and guardians up to speed on the types of change we're trying to create? How do we build, buy in from them? Carmen, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Having I'm sure navigated a ton of challenging questions around this. What are your thoughts?
- [53:42]
B
You know, I think like with anything else, it's so important to be very transparent with parents and with your community. Here's what we're learning about and here's what we're trying and here's what's happening so far. You know, I believe so strongly in the power of student led conferences and I think what an opportunity to get Parents in and let them see. Let them see. And if they see. I mean, what, what I saw, my introduction to the Modern classroom project was this classroom that was humming. I mean, like all the things you want to see. Productive. The kids were engaged, they were collaborating, they were, they were working on all what they needed for their learning. And I mean, you can't, you can't argue with that. The teacher's getting more time with your kid. I mean, but you've got to be transparent. You've got to over communicate.
- [54:50]
A
And I love the over communicate piece. The other thing I'd say is listen, listen. Like, one of the things I think can happen with parent concerns is we quickly get defensive. And I think that that's a really dangerous approach. Like we're serving parent and guardians kids. And if they have a concern, it comes from something, right? If it comes from an old school understanding of instructional models. Yeah. Let's have a conversation about why you misunderstand this.
- [55:23]
C
If your concern is coming because your
- [55:25]
A
student came home and actually said something they didn't like, let's talk about that. Is your student not like something because they're not engaging in the behaviors and the mindsets and the activities that are actually good for learning, or are they credible and have you not done a great job supporting that student? And I realized very quickly that when I was very defensive and afraid of parent concerns, that's when I was super, super reactive. And it led me down a very bad pathway. But when I was open to their thoughts and took them seriously, it was actually quite easy to explain, you know, what their misunderstanding was or where I wasn't being clear enough with the students about the value. The biggest misconception we, for example, see in modern classrooms is parents will think that the teacher's not teaching anymore, Right? It's like because the teacher isn't doing what traditional teachers do, which is stand in front of the room and kind of put on a performance, then we're not teaching anymore. And what we found is, well, if you can explain to the parent and even the student, you now have more time with me, not less than suddenly eyes open wide and say, hold on a second, that sounds like teaching, right? But if you don't have that firm understanding and grasp of what's going on, it's going to be very difficult to make that super clear. It's 4:57 East coast time. I want to be sensitive of time. I want to thank you both a ton for your time. I thought this was a fabulous discussion. And for all the readers out there and listeners out there. This will get transformed. This will be a webinar that we'll put out that can access, will likely turn into a blog and then also be a podcast series. And this will be the first episode which I'm fired up about. I want to thank you, Tom, and I want to thank you, Carmen, for just like being here and sharing your perspective. You all bring such a wealth of knowledge and experience to the space and such a different perspective in how we think about these challenging questions. And to the listeners out there who drop questions in the chat, thank you so much. So we'll close there. I appreciate you both and thank you everyone for being here and have a great night. Evening, everybody.
- [57:23]
B
Thank you.
- [57:24]
C
Thank you.
- [57:31]
A
Thank you so much. Thank you for listening. Be sure to check out this episode's show notes in your podcast player or on the web for more information about the speakers in today's show. You can learn more about the Modern classrooms project at www.modernclassrooms.org and you can learn the essentials of our model for free at learn.modernclassrooms.org. you can follow us on social media at ModernClassProj. That's Proj and that'll do it for us. So be sure to tune in next time for another episode of Catalyzing Classroom Change.