Episode 4: From Burnout to Bliss: Transforming Workplace Culture

Summary

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Catalyzing Classroom Change

Episode 4: From Burnout to Bliss: Transforming Workplace Culture

Date: October 30, 2023
Host: Modern Classrooms Project
Guests:

• Jamila Pitts (Author & Consultant)
• Marcus Johnson (Assistant Principal)
• Emily (Functional Health Coach & Burnout Prevention Expert)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the pervasive issue of teacher burnout and the transformative approaches that can bring a sense of "bliss" back into school workplace culture. With insights from educators, a school leader, and a wellness expert who have both experienced and studied burnout, the conversation dives into the root causes, warning signs, and tangible solutions that can help teachers reclaim wellness, joy, and a balanced identity both in and out of the classroom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Differentiating Joy and Happiness in Educator Wellbeing

Timestamps: 09:29–13:16

• Each panelist shares what brings them joy—a practice the host frames as essential for educator self-care and burnout prevention.
  • Emily: Joy comes from "giving teachers the tools to stand up for their needs, assert healthy work boundaries, and create sustainable routines" and from unplugging and connecting with nature and community. (10:00)
  • Jamila: Practicing “self-allowance”—giving herself permission to feel fully and authentically, especially as a Black woman, and finding grounding in solitude and nature. (10:43)
  • Marcus: Intentionally making time for friends, performing music, and creative writing as antidotes to seasonal depression and stress. (12:03)

“I’ve been really intentional about how I spend my time and doing activities that really foster joy for me.” – Marcus (12:03)

2. Reclaiming Identity Beyond “Teacher”

Timestamps: 14:30–21:19

• Panelists reflect on how teaching can subsume personal identity, causing other passions and aspects of self to atrophy.
  • Emily: Stopped singing for three years while teaching. “I let these other parts of my identity get neglected during the school year.” (15:25–17:12)
  • Marcus: Developed “I am” statements for himself and staff to abstract identity from profession.
  • Jamila: “I am” is enough; naming roles outside of work (writer, dancer, friend) reaffirms humanity.

3. The Realities and Impact of Burnout Culture in Schools

Timestamps: 22:00–30:59

• The guests collectively outline the systemic, behavioral, and emotional tolls of sustained burnout.
  • Marcus: Notes exodus from the field, declining quality of life, unfair compensation, and increased pressure with fewer resources. (22:00)
  • Emily: Links burnout to chronic stress leading to withdrawal, procrastination, numbing behaviors, and harmful isolation.

“Burnout is essentially chronic stress... long term high stress has really large implications for our bodies and for our minds.” – Emily (23:49) - Jamila: Highlights the stigma faced when educators push back on grind culture; notes how burnout particularly impacts educators of color and those working towards anti-racist liberation in classrooms. (27:25)

4. Recognizing Warning Signs of Burnout & Intervening

Timestamps: 31:00–40:02

• Jamila: Details physical symptoms (disturbed sleep, anxiety, irritability, chronic fatigue, menstrual/fibroid issues), and stresses the need for leadership to “hold space” for honest emotional check-ins. (31:34)

“You have to be a leader who prioritizes your wellness and your self-care. Otherwise you are going to perpetuate these really toxic and harmful cycles.” – Jamila (34:52)

• Marcus: Personal account of health crises from stress (migraines, sciatica, vomiting)—emphasizes creating “brave spaces” for vulnerability and proactive, non-judgmental leadership intervention. (35:03)

“If I can't sustain, I cannot ask people to do what I'm doing.” – Marcus (35:45)

• Emily: Lists warning signs (lateness, absenteeism, disengagement, neglecting breaks) and cautions against offering only “self-care” as a solution, instead advocating for targeting root causes through supportive listening. (40:02)

5. Building a Healthier Workplace Culture: Strategies

Timestamps: 42:36–56:03

Marcus’ Strategies (43:23–47:49)

• Encourages taking personal and mental health days; builds support systems for planning relief and flexibility.
• Collects feedback often; customizes recognition and appreciation for each staff member.
• Models boundary-setting and self-care personally as a school leader.

“PD is important… but I don't want to send the PD when I got to put in 700 grades. I need that time to do that work.” – Marcus (46:45)

Emily’s Strategies (48:58–51:41)

• Advocates for reducing unnecessary “effort” (cutting non-essential work).
• Increases compensation with time, autonomy, and appreciation when monetary rewards aren’t possible.
• Routinizes positive feedback and recognition for teachers from admin and students.

Jamila’s Macro & Micro Level Changes (51:51–56:03)

• Calls for societal shifts: “Schools are not separate from the society that they operate within.”
• Centers trauma-informed, healing-focused, liberatory practices—particularly for educators and students of color.
• Advocates for communal care over individualistic cultures, fair pay, more appreciative structures, and genuinely student-centered pedagogy.

“If we create classrooms that are healing-center, that are student-centered, that are rooted in joy… teachers are not doing that much work. And you can do that work and have rigorous learning environments, I promise you.” – Jamila (54:54)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Prioritizing Humanity:

  • “We need to be fully human to be incredible educators. And so what we start to see is the disconnect of the heart and the soul and the full humanity… that is needed to do the really incredible, both hard work and hard work, that needs to be done in school.” – Jamila (28:45)

• Breaking the Cycle:

  • “There’s always been this expected expectation for us to persist and be resilient through those things. I don't want to be resilient no more. I don't want to be strong every day. I get soft and I get weak sometimes, and I need somebody to see me.” – Marcus (38:12)

• Dismantling Grind Culture:

  • “A part of this work is because our society is so individualistic… it is the shift to communal care. And when we are operating from a space that really honors community and collaboration, our time starts to free up.” – Jamila (52:49)

• Manager as Model:

  • “If I’m tired, I know you’re tired. You are on the front lines… how can we together come up with a solution that keeps you feeling supported and safe?” – Marcus (43:28)

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Important Timestamps

• Opening/Introductions: 00:22–08:51
• Joy vs. Happiness Sharing: 09:29–13:16
• Identity Beyond Work: 14:30–21:19
• Impact of Burnout on Schools: 22:00–30:59
• Warning Signs & Interventions: 31:00–40:02
• Strategies for Healthier Culture: 42:36–56:03
• Closing Reflections: 56:03–58:05

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Closing Thoughts

Throughout the discussion, panelists affirm that transforming school culture from burnout to bliss is systemic, deeply human, and requires both personal and structural commitments. Creating brave spaces, listening with compassion, valuing authenticity, rediscovering joy, and implementing creative, community-driven solutions can restore the balance needed in schools—benefiting both educators and their students.

“Go do something that brings you joy. Also, have a hard stop when it's working because our work is never done.” – Host (58:05)

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For further resources and to connect with the speakers:

• Jamila Pitts, Marcus Johnson, and Emily are open to follow-up via social media, LinkedIn, and professional networks.
• Free workshops and ongoing professional development are available via the Modern Classrooms Project (modernclassrooms.org).

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This summary was prepared to provide a comprehensive overview and reference for listeners and leaders committed to transforming educational work cultures.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Welcome to Catalyzing Classroom Change, a podcast

[A]

from the Modern Classrooms Project.

[B]

Our topic for today is From Burnout to Bliss, Transforming Workplace Culture. So we have an exciting 60 minutes ahead of us. And I'm really, really, really just stoked to be in the same space as these three school leaders, thought leaders. And so let's go ahead and get started at Modern Classrooms. We were actually hosting this really cool fall leader series. And so Every Tuesday at 1pm we're going to be sharing, we're going to have a panel for you all to just kind of join in on the conversation. And so we have a couple of oops, I'm like, all over the place. We have From Burnout to Bliss. Today we have Reframing Communication, Bridging Gaps With Caregivers and Students, Equity by Design Beyond Absenteeism, Equity by Design. Again, this one, which is the Transformative Power of Mastery. And then of course, creating leaders out of teachers. And so in the chat, you'll actually see a couple of links for you all just so that you're all aware of what this Fall leader will look like. And then, of course, just a reminder, too, we have educators and leaders from New York City public schools and D.C. public schools, authors like Caitlin Tucker, John Bergman and Carol Ann Tomlinson, and experts from Research for Better Teaching, Black Girls Teach, and the Aurora Institute joining us. So hopefully we see you in these spaces to just continue the conversation. Right? And so we'll go ahead and keep going with that. And so we have a quick little video for you to just kind of let us let you know what Modern Classroom is all about. And we'll have that video for you.

[C]

Tell me if this has happened to you. You come to school one day, the teacher's at the board, and it's time for the except you were homesick yesterday. So when the teacher starts talking, you're not sure what they're talking about. You're lost. Or maybe you learned this last year. So when the teacher explains what you already know, you're bored. Or maybe you're just having a bad day. It happens. The teacher's talking, but you can't focus. You're distracted. And meanwhile, the teacher's not sure what to do. The teacher is stressed. But what if your teacher steps down from the front of the room? If you are sick, you don't have to worry. Your teacher's lessons are on video, so you can pick up right where you left off. This isn't from YouTube, by the way. Your teacher made the video and you're watching Them explain so you're not lost anymore. You're engaged. And if you already know the content, you can move ahead and do an extension activity. You can work on this with your classmates. Now you aren't bored anymore. You're challenged. And if you're having a bad day, the teacher has time to sit with you. They can ask what's wrong? And help you feel better. You aren't distracted anymore. You feel supported. And by the way, your teacher realizes that they can meet your needs and they can feel successful. We call this a modern classroom. Welcome. In a modern classroom, you'll notice three new things. First, your teacher is creating videos for you. You can watch these videos in class or at home. You can pause, rewind, re watch, or skip ahead if you get it. These don't replace your teacher. They just clone your teacher so that they can support you individually. Next, you'll learn at your own pace. When you get things quickly, you move ahead quickly. When you need more time, you'll have the time you need. This means you'll learn as much as you can without being rushed or held. Finally, you're really going to learn things. In fact, you'll master them. You won't move to lesson two until you really understand lesson one. So when you learn something new, you're really going to learn it. After all, you're too capable for anything less than true understanding. So that's a modern classroom for you. Now, what are you waiting for? Let's learn.

[B]

All right, well, thank you all so much for watching that. Just as a reminder, right here, hopefully with the modern classroom, we're helping our teachers create a work life balance, which is our topic for today. A lot of our teachers are feeling burnt out or just really stressed about a lot of things. We're here to just continue having this conversation of how to transform our workplace culture. With that being said, y', all, we have a panel of folks that I'm just like, so stoked to be around because there's a plethora of of knowledge and passion about how to create and transform a workplace culture into something that's blissful and not stressful. So, Jamila, we're going to start with you if you can. Go ahead and introduce yourself.

[D]

Yes. Hello everyone and just thank you just for this space and the opportunity. My name is Jamila Pitts. I am located in Columbus, Ohio. Right now, I am an author. My debut book, Toward Liberation Educational Practices Rooted in Activism, Healing and Love is currently available for pre order and will be released in just a couple weeks. And I am the founder and CEO of Jamila Fitz Consulting. So we support schools and educational organizations by centering liberation and wellness practices. I'm super excited to be here and a part of this conversation today. Yes.

[B]

And I'm so excited for you to be here as well. Jamila. You and I had a podcast together and I was just like blown away with everything that you were telling me. So I'm excited to share this space with you again. Marques, go ahead.

[A]

Hi, my name is Marcus Johnson. I am a practitioner of education. For about 18 years now, I have done every role under the sun you could probably imagine, from coaching to assistant principal to principal. I'm currently an assistant principal in a school in Seattle, Washington. I am super excited about the work that we're going to be doing today. I like to approach things always from a lens of equity and so that has been my stance in a lot of things. And I am super excited to be part of this conversation today. For those who don't know, me and Tony Rose used to work together in dc. So she is near and dear to my heart. When she asked me, I could not refuse.

[B]

So yeah, I was just gonna say too. Marcus was my assistant principal. So I have this experience with Marcus of how he created this work life balance for me as an educator. So I'm always so happy to be in the same space as Marcus. And then of course, our last one is Emily.

[E]

Hello. I'm super honored to be here today. First of all, with this awesome panel. I am a functional health coach and burnout prevention expert. For the last five years, I've specifically been working with school organizations and individual educators and administrators to help support their health and well being during the school year, find healthy ways to manage stress and manage really busy schedules. The reason that I got into this work is because I have a background in the classroom and I experience burnout during the school year. There was a number of years I was really, really struggling with burnout symptoms and I became fascinated with finding solutions for myself and also going back and finding solutions for the teacher, friends and colleagues that I saw struggling with similar things. So I'm really excited for this conversation today.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

We actually had a comment in the chat that was like, I don't do anything healthy for self care, so I'm here. And that just makes me so happy that that itself is a first step to taking care of yourself.

[E]

Right.

[B]

Because you're looking forward to seeing what can we do to be better for ourselves, that we can show up for ourselves better as well as showing up for our students and folks that we serve. Again, I'm so, so, so excited to be in this space with you all. Hey, my name is Trdnnan they them pronouns. And so I am actually the community engagement manager here at Modern Classroom. And so I'm basically the designated hype person for educators. I like to hyper. I like to make sure they're taking care of themselves and that we're elevating their voices as well. Because sometimes we tend to not hear from our educators. Right. And the ones who are doing all of the great work as well. And so I'm really glad to be in this space with you all. And self care is something that I have really loved and embraced and prioritized and also unlearning and relearning and redefining what self care looks like for me to like, truly authentically do it. Right. Because there's a huge difference.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Because of all the social media stuff that we see about what self care looks like. So it's really exciting again to be in this space with you all. So question number one, tell us more about what is bringing you joy lately. Because something that I've learned is that there's a difference between joy and happiness. Joy is something that we can access every single day and it could be all the little things, right? And happiness is like a bigger picture and it kind of. It's kind of like the umbrella for all the joys that we are experiencing in life. And so, Emily, we'll start with you. What's bringing you joy lately?

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

So from a professional standpoint, something that really brings me deep joy, seriously, is helping give teachers the tools to be able to stand up for their needs, assert healthy work boundaries, and create sustainable work routines so that they can find these moments in their day. Like you said, to be able to breathe and take a pause and really find those joyful moments. We live in a very, very fast paced, um, so even for myself, something that brings me a lot of joy is taking moments to take away. Take a moment away from the screens, take a moment to breathe, be out in nature and really connect with my community and the people who really care and support me and lift me up.

[B]

I love that a lot. The nature piece is very important too. Right. That's something that I'm learning now as I aged. And especially like remote work. It gets kind of lonely just being in the office all day. So it's really like a. Like you kind of have to force yourself to go out and just be outside. Jamila, what about you what is currently bringing you joy?

[D]

Yeah, I have a number of, I would say, practices or tools in my toolbox that I go to to just center joy right now. I would say it's a huge part of that is self allowance. So understanding just the full range of my humanity in this world, in this culture and this society, especially as a black woman. And so a part of that is just self allowance, allowing myself to be. To feel. To experience the fullness of what I feel in various moments, you know, without forcing myself to, you know, smile if I don't want to smile or forcing myself to be on if I don't want to be on. I have to echo the sentiments around nature. I'm in Ohio right now, and so the fall season is just such a beautiful teacher and reminder. And so just having opportunities to look out my window or to, you know, physically be outside in nature. Grounding and just a lot of quiet and solitude right now is bringing me joy

[B]

that's so that, like, solitude is really hard to come by sometimes. You know, it's another thing again to like, really look for it intentionally and make. Make time for it. So, Marcus, what about you? What's bringing you joy?

[A]

So one of the things that always has brought me joy is my friends and connecting to my chosen family. I've planned trips to visit my loved ones. I've been really intentional about how I spend my time and doing activities that really foster joy for me. I've been diving into performing. I sing. So it's a very safe space for me to be on stage and to be doing things that I love. I'm writing more often. I did a couple of shows last week at a local casino, and I've been protecting the time of things that really foster joy for me. So, like, whether it's getting my thoughts physically on paper. I recorded a song a couple of weeks ago, and if people are anything like me, like, you suffer from seasonal depression, like, it's being intentional about, like, how you spend time to combat this gray season. So I've been really, really proactively planning out activities for myself that foster joy. A lot of times I've postponed it or, like, feel like I wasn't ready to or didn't deserve it in those certain moments. So I've been really intentional about, like, how I activities that really foster joy for me. So I'm going to be on some planes really soon and going to visit some people that I love and hug some necks and kiss some cheeks and enjoy some things.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that that's really, really important that we don't want to lose sight of. Right. And I think that's also important as an educator myself, because sometimes I do tend to use up all of my energy for the students that I serve so that when I get home, I am zero. Like, I can't do anything else because I don. Have the capacity and I didn't reserve energy. So this is really interesting. And I really like to ask questions about joy because sometimes, you know, it's really. It's natural for us as humans to focus on, like, the things that didn't work out. And so when we start our conversations with, hey, what actually brought you joy today could be as simple as getting up and brushing my teeth. I really like my electronic toothbrush. So that really brings me joy every morning. Right. And so really like, focusing on the little things that bring us joy. So thank you so much for sharing that with me and the community. And so now tell us a little bit more about who you are. You gave us a little snippet in the beginning, but I'd love to just kind of jump into, like, anything that you want to share with us. Right. So to kind of get us a better sense of who you are as human beings. And so let's start off with Jamila. Sure.

[D]

So I. I am Jamyla. I like to start with just that I am and not necessarily attaching the I am to what I do and understanding that who I am, the essence of my being, is enough. And that is the I am. I am a writer. I am a dancer. I'm an empath. I'm an introvert. I'm a foodie. I'm a sojourner. I've had the opportunity to travel to about 20 countries. I'm a sister of friends, a daughter. Yeah, those are. Yeah, my I ams, Jamila.

[B]

I mean, just watching you describe yourself, Right. It just. That brought me so much joy because you just were so proud of, like, sharing who you are. And I love that. I love that so much. Emily, what about you?

[E]

Yeah, I want to jump off that because it was really beautiful to hear you go through all that, Jamila. And I feel like just kind of taking it back within the world of education. Something that I experienced as a teacher was having teacher become such a huge, huge part of my identity and kind of letting these other parts of my identity get neglected during the school year and then during the breaks and the weekends, trying to, like, catch up, catch up. To, like, to be the friend and to be the sister and to do all These things that were really part of my identity. I'm a singer too, and I let singing fall completely to the wayside for like three whole years when I was teaching, which is crazy to think about now. So I think it was a beautiful thing to hear you list all of those things with even importance and then also to bring it back to this idea that at the end of the day it's just I am like who you are. So I think that was beautiful. I mentioned a couple of things that I am through that, but I do really like to share part of my story, which is my experience with burnout during the school year. I think I was kind of or during my multiple years as a classroom educator because it really is the story behind what I do, why I do what I do today. And I came into teaching bright eyed and bushy tailed and I really wanted to give my all and I loved my students. I was a Spanish teacher in both D.C. public schools and a Denver charter school. Rocky Mountain Prep is the name of it. And I just wanted to give my all and I pushed myself super, super hard and I wanted to be gritty and I wanted to make it and I wanted to do my best. And I didn't really have tools to manage the stress that I was feeling healthfully. And I also really let myself fall to the wayside throughout all of those years. And so I experienced a number of really difficult symptoms because of that. And I think burnout has become very common within education. And a lot of the symptoms are sort of like accepted. For example, people having trouble sleeping during the school year or nutritional habits getting kind of off the reins or having higher anxiety or things like that. And having experienced those for multiple, multiple years, it really takes a big impact on these sense this, this sense of who we are as people. And like for me it impacted, I felt like because I was so anxious, for example, and kind of wanted to socially withdraw more, that my more extroverted parts of myself completely fell off the wayside.

[D]

So.

[E]

So the reason that I do what I do and I want to be able to give back to teachers is really to help to reclaim this sense of I am both outside of the classroom and then also reclaim this feeling of positivity of why we are doing the work that we do inside the classroom.

[B]

Yeah, I really, I resonate with a lot of the things that you said, Emily. I was definitely that, that educator for those 10 years that I was in the classroom. I. The way that I described myself was I am a teacher, point blank period. Like that Was it? Right. Like, I didn't have any other hobbies. I didn't have anything. I am a teacher. I take care of my kids. I make sure that they're okay. And so I, once I stopped, once I, like, got out of the classroom, I had to really take a step back and say, like, who am I? I'm not just an educator. Right. I am a human being. But, like, I don't know who I am. And so, like. And I'm sure there are a lot of educators who can. Who feel the same way, too, because education does take a toll, does take up so much time and space. Right.

[D]

And energy.

[B]

So, Marcus, what about you? Like, who. Who are you?

[A]

This is crazy. To Jamila and Emily's point, we do an identity work project every year, which I've done it probably for, like, the fast, the past five or six years. And they're all I am statements. They're I am statements about who you are as a person outside of this work. And so, like, I. I've enjoyed watching mine change over the years as I've grown more and more out of this, identifying myself by what I do. But I am Marcus, just like Jamila said, I'm Marcus. I'm a Southerner. One of the most proudest moments that I have is when I became an uncle. I love that little boy and would do anything for him. He takes all my money. I am a black and queer man from the south, which has come with its own set of challenges, but it definitely has made me very resilient in my career and in my personal life. I am strong, yet I love kids. I cherish educators. Black women and women of color have supported me through my entire year, and I am grateful for that. My core values are joy, justice, and community. And without those things, I know that I am not going to do well if I don't have them in the spaces that I work. I'm a writer. I'm a singer. I love a good adventure. I picked up my life from Philadelphia and drove across the country to live in Seattle. So I love a good adventure. I love the theater. I love fall weather. You see me with a host of jackets and coats and cozy things that I like to wear during the fall. I love baseball. I love cooking. There's all this duality. Saturdays are my days to try new recipes and try new things and cook new things and enjoy new things around the city. So I love a good adventure. But at the end of the day, I am just me. And that is enough.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think sometimes we need that reminder, right. That, like, I am enough. That's something that I know I need to repeat every single time too. And so having to take a step back and reevaluate who we are as human beings and not just as educators is really hard and scary. So I'm glad to be in this space with you all and you sharing who you are and what brings you joy. I'm excited to continue learning more from you all. All right, so let's go ahead and shift. What issues are you seeing arising out of a sustained burnout culture? So let's start with Marcus.

[A]

Sure. One of the things that I have seen over the time that I've been in education for a lot of people is a. A declining quality of life. There's no balance of work. There's no balance of life. And then that impacts what we do for kids and how we can show up for kids.

[B]

Kids.

[A]

I think it's really hard to be intentional about instruction when you're not getting what you need. And people are leaving this profession in droves. And a lot of this has to do with the sustainability of this work. Like, we're putting a lot more pressure and bigger load on teachers to do all of these things and not always giving them the support they need to be able to do that. Teachers and staff, like I said, get up every day, and they choose to do this work. This work is hard, and they aren't doing it with the proper support all the time. They're doing it on their dime, supporting their kids in their classroom on their dime. They're doing it at a wage that isn't fair for the amount of time and effort that they put into this work. And that has caused a mass exodus. We see more and more people turn into careers outside of schools. I was there for a little while thinking, like, I need to be doing something else. But we also see. I've also seen, like, as a result of this, like, people my age especially, they. We're not having kids. So it impacts us all. And we're asking teachers to do more with less because the resources are less, because we have, you know, less kids in school. And so this cycle of this declining quality of life and this decline of work, life balance, which really impacts, at the end of the day, not just our teachers, but our kids and families.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah, I know. I'm always asking folks, you know, like, how do you show up in spaces? Because it really does impact the folks who are in that same space. Emily, what about you?

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

So I feel like there. There's so. Okay, so I guess I'll just start with burnout is essentially chronic stress. So stress that people are experiencing long term, we use because, you know, the phrase turnout. Burnout has become extremely popular and trendy and talked about a lot in the education space. I think it can be helpful to just say at the end of the day, it's chronic stress, typically caused by overworking, overexpending energy and stress has really, especially long term high stress has really large implications for our bodies and for our minds. I think a lot of us already know the different effects that it can have on the body. And long term, those effects can get worse and worse and impact quality of life. As Marcus was saying, what I didn't really understand as an educator is how it can impact our behaviors and our emotions as well. Really common, common side effects of stress on our behavior is withdrawing from relationships and activities you enjoy because you might not have enough energy left over for can be isolating yourself from others. It can be procrastinating. It could be skipping work or coming into work late or leaving early, feeling like you need to do that in order to make it. It can be taking out your frustration on others. I feel like our frustrations often come out on our loved ones or we lose patience with a student and numbing behaviors as well. So feeling like alcohol, drugs, eating, emotional eating, those kinds of things can be really common behaviors to chronic stress. And I like to bring that up because speaking from my own experience, I used to blame myself a lot for kind of going through some of these behaviors or why am I snapping at somebody who I really love and care about? Or this is never the type of teacher who I wanted to be to

[D]

lose patience so easily.

[E]

And it was helpful and validating to hear that it's a really common response to stress. And just kind of to wrap that up, I think one of the worst, worst ones, all of those are bad. So it's not the funnest topic to talk about burnout, but one of the ones that I think is most unfortunate is this feeling of isolation and feeling like you need to isolate yourself and feeling like you're completely alone in your struggle and everyone else is doing fine, but you're really struggling. I think that we see that on a macro level where with this feeling of teachers against administrators, or teachers against parents or teachers against students and really like, of course, in a school community, we all wanna be working together in cohesion and knowing we all have each other's best interests at heart. But when everyone's in this state of like stress and self defense mode, it can really tear the community apart.

[B]

Yeah, all of that. And it's funny or not funny, but it's interesting too, when I think about, like, if I haven't eaten, right, like become hangry and then if I haven't gotten any sleep at all, like my crankiness is real high. And then my students will be like, oh yeah, Ms. D ain't having it today. And it doesn't even have anything to do with my kids. It just has everything to do with the fact that I did not take care of myself. Right. So what about you, Jamila? What issues are you seeing arising out of a sustained burnout culture?

[D]

Yeah, I think, you know, Emily and Marcus have definitely spoken to just many of the responses that we're seeing as a result of this just really toxic grind culture that is leading to burnout in schools. I will say that one of the positive aspects of that is that we're having this conversation. I resigned from working in schools in 2020 from just very similar experiences. I was working as a school leader in New York in a charter school, and we weren't having these conversations. And so I remember talking to my school leadership at the time. And I'm a yoga teacher. I became a yoga teacher during my time working in schools. And so the conversations that I was having about setting boundaries, about joy, about wellness and self care, people were looking at me like there was something wrong with me. Because this grind culture, this burnout, not only is it something that's so deeply rooted in what we see in school, that when people work against that and they push against that, those people are seen as odd. Those people are seen as though they are not, you know, great educators. When we are simply trying to preserve ourselves. I think another part is when we are neglecting ourselves, when we are neglecting our humanity, we need to be fully human, to be incredible educators. And so what we start to to see is the disconnect of the heart and the soul and the full humanity that is needed to do the really incredible, both hard work and hard work that needs to be done in school. So a lot of the work that I do now with schools as a consultant, you know, what I write about in my book and the work that I did working in schools was serving specifically students of the global majority, particularly black students. And so teachers who are doing that work and who are seeking to center anti racism and liberation, we have to be well. We have to be well. And so when we are not, when we are experiencing burnout, you know that work is not happening. I know that Emily spoke to just the impact on the body, and that is so incredibly important. Like, we have to eat well, we have to be nourished. We have to make sure that we're experiencing, experiencing sleep. I know that, you know, the pain, like, different types of pain that people experience in our bodies, you know, the increased mental health challenges that exist. And so there's a wide range that of things that are happening to educators when we continue to just push and to promote this capitalistic, you know, grind culture that that is leading to the burnout that we're seeing. But it's great that we are having this conversation and the conversation is happening. It is tied to that great exodus of people just saying, absolutely not. I'm not doing this. And so there's hope. And that is encouraging.

[B]

It all starts with a conversation, right? Because we're done avoiding it. We're not going to avoid it anymore. And like you said, Jamyla, it's really great that we're having this conversation because I know you and I had talked about how my first year of teaching and your first year of being in the classroom as well, we didn't have these conversations. So we were just grinding, grinding, grinding, thinking that that's what we're supposed to be doing to be successful in the classroom.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And that's actually a great segue to our next question. And Jamila, I'm going to start with you because I had a really great conversation with you about this. Is that at what are the warning signs of burnout? Right. And how do you support someone who is there? Because I think sometimes it's become so normalized. Right. That, like, we're not listening to all the signs or we're not seeing all of the signs because this is just how it's always been. So what are the warning signs of burnout? And then how do we support someone who is there? Or how do we support ourselves? Because sometimes it's ourselves who are burning out.

[D]

Yeah. So, you know, this is such an important set of questions, and I can start with just my experience, because sometimes the symptoms of burnout can be conflated with symptoms of other things that might be happening. So, like disturbances and sleep, not sleeping well, increased anxiety, increased irritability. I know that as a black woman, it's really important to name that, you know, in spaces we're black women, you know, if we're irritable or we're not, well, we're this angry Black woman. Or a lot of the times it could Be something more deeper that's underlying. I always like to talk about that as a menstruator. For me, it was having really painful menstrual cycles for a lot of women of color, women of the global majority, like growing fibroids. You know, that is tied to the chronic stress and how that's impacting your body. Certainly tied to just nourishment or the lack of nourishment and the impact that that is having on the body. Feeling really just tired, experiencing chronic fatigue, having brain fog or just like mental blocks, certainly feeling like you just can't. Like you really want to, like mentally, you want to, you want to try, you want to do these different things, you want to tap into your creativity. But it's like, you know, I'm unable to do that are some of the things that, you know, I've seen and with educators that I've worked with, but also things that I experienced a part of what I did as an educational leader when I was coaching teachers, when I worked as an assistant principal, when we would have our check ins. Before I dive into what went well or what did not go well in your classroom lesson, it's an actual real pause of like, how are you? And when I'm asking that question, I am literally holding this space for you to be able to respond to, how are you? So even something as simple as that, allowing people to just have the time and the space to even sit with themselves and to think about, like, how am I a part of the work that I do now with schools in supporting educators and supporting leaders to prioritize their care, it's building out. I think teachers do a really good job with schedules and routines because there's so much that we often have to pack into our days. What is your morning routine look like? I have an entire chapter in my book around this. Like, how do we uniquely care for ourselves and make sure that we are not experiencing burnout or that we are recovering from burnout? What does your morning look like? If it's 20 minutes, if it's an hour, what does it look like? How are you caring for your spiritual self, your mental self, your physical self in the morning before you arrive? And you have to extend understanding. Are you an introvert? Are you an extrovert? Are you an empath? Right. Do you experience who are you as a person and how does that impact what you need in terms of, of your well being? I think the other part too, especially for leaders who may be a part of this, you have to be a leader who prioritizes your wellness and your self care. Otherwise you are going to create and you are going to perpetuate these really toxic and harmful cycles where you're harming not only the adults who work under your leadership, but also young people. Because ultimately it's going to trickle down and out.

[B]

Yes, I'm pausing because. Yes, yes, yes. Right? Like, like, yes, Marcus, go ahead. Just like, I don't have anything else to say. So Marcus, go for it.

[A]

This is crazy. A lot of what you said is, are some of the things that I have thought about as a school leader. I understood wholeheartedly that if I did not prioritize my own wellness and self care and model that for the teachers that I was supporting, they weren't gonna do it. Sony Rose will tell you, every time we had a check in, the first question asked asked was, how are you doing today, right now, in this moment? And what happens in those spaces is you create a brave space for people to be vulnerable enough to you to share what it is that they need for support and you can create a plan on how to support teachers. I know that I experienced so many body aches. Like at one point I was working, I developed sciatica out of nowhere one day I was just sitting there and I could not get my back to start, stop hurting, had to leave and go to the emergency room. Like all of that, like all of these things were happening to me. I was vomiting when I got up in the morning because I was so stressed out, hadn't eaten anything, just throwing up. And it was because I wasn't taking care of my body and I was expecting other people to like be there. So like I was on this grind. I was showing up every day, tired, headaches, migraines, like all of these things just showing up. And it got to a point to where like I cannot sustain it. So I know if I can't sustain, I cannot ask people to do what I'm doing. One of the things that I always saw in teachers was there will be like an increase of like absences that would like trigger something that was wrong. And for me, it's never a question of like, I'm checking your leave, but if a pattern starts to develop that is not normal, that is abnormal from like what you're usually doing, then I know then to check in about something and it's like, hey, are you okay? How can I support you? Do you need to take some extended leave? Do you need an initial person in your classroom to support? Do you need me to come in and Support your classroom instruction during these times and, like, how I can be of support and help. I think it really, really starts early. You have to find out, like, what people need plan with them. Because a lot of teachers go through this, and they go through it silently, like, you see it. And it's harder to recognize symptoms in other people than it is in yourself. Like, I know when my body's off, and I know when my mental state is off. I know when I start having Sunday scary stress dreams about working the next morning about, like, everything that could go wrong. Oh, I need to rest. I need to pause. I need to take a break for something. And for a lot of teachers, like, those things don't show up because there haven't been vulnerable enough spaces for them to say exactly what it is they need. And so starting off with building those relationships and understanding, like, this is abnormal for what I've seen in this teacher. They've been brave enough to say what they need, and I need an immediate reaction that's going to. To bring them support and comfort in that moment and sticking to what that is for them. In the eight years I want to say I've been to school, it's eight. Wow. In eight years that I've been a school leader, it's been really interesting to see, like, my own evolution and what that has looked like in supporting teachers. And once I recognize what that felt like for myself and I was able to guide teachers through those things and support them in that way, there was a turnaround in the culture. But until we, like, put ourselves in a vulnerable space to be able to say, like, this is what burnout is looking for me. Seems like you're having some similar things. How can I support you? And, like, how can I make. Make things better for you in these moments? So, yeah, you hit on a lot of things, Especially for black women, black men, people of color. There's always been this expected expectation for us to persist and be resilient through those. Those things. I don't want to be resilient no more. I don't want to be strong every day. I get soft and I get weak sometimes, and I need somebody to see me. And from that to happen, I need to be able to see other. Other people. So, yeah.

[B]

Yes. And I know, Marcus, like, you are my assistant principal, right? And just being seen that, like, oh, TR Is not showing up the best. What's happening instead of like, hey, you need to show up, up, like, you know, it wasn't a reprimand, but it was a call in of, like, some things I notice you and I want to save space so that we can have this conversation so that I can better support you. And I felt like as an educator, that was really powerful. And I think sometimes with educators and school leaders, sometimes us educators feel like the school leaders don't see us as humans sometimes. Like, you know, there's this expectation to always check in with students, always check in with students, and then there's no support to check in with educators. And so, you know, having you as my assistant principal, where I felt taken care of and I felt like it was okay to be vulnerable and to be honest with, like, what's happening outside of my classroom, that really empowered me to continue showing up as my best self in the classroom for my students. So I thank you for naming all of that. And Emily, do you have anything else you want to add?

[E]

Yeah, I mean, I think that these were just absolutely beautiful, beautiful answers. Talking about bringing more love and compassion to the space, not only for, I guess, starting with ourselves, right? Knowing that we need care and modeling that for other people, modeling that for the teachers, giving that to the teachers. And then also speaking for teachers who want to practice more self care, they're modeling that and giving compassion to themselves and that shows to their students that they don't have to be in this constant grind and push. And like, school is a stressful place and learning is a stressful thing because they definitely feel the impact of stress coming off of their teacher or stress coming off of administrator, whoever in the building. So I think that it's just like, pretty much the point to be made is bringing more compassion to the space. I also like to bring in the question of what specifically are your pain points? Because if you're starting to notice things like teachers not being as engaged in their classroom, or they're leaving school earlier, calling out sick more often, or they're skipping their lunch because they have to work through lunch, or they are coming in super, super early or leaving super, super late because they can't get everything done within. Like, I'd say those are all warning signs of burnout or overwhelm or overburdened as well. And to of course ask, are you okay? What's going on? But then also, like, we can see some things going on, but what is, what is the pain point? What is going on for you? I hear a lot. Just, you know, in the education world, it's frustrating to hear just self care as the solution to teacher burnout sometimes because there's. You can do as much yoga as possible. But then if you're going into day after day of school where there's something really specific that is causing a lot of pain, you know, suffering and really high stress, then there's not going to be any amount of yoga that's going to help with that. So specifically pinpointing the stressor and getting support for that is is really important. And that involves listening to what teachers are going through.

[B]

We're getting a lot of questions in the chat and we'll get to it after this last one that we have. So listeners or attendees, please continue, share those questions and click on the question icon as well so that we can get to those questions.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And so what strategies can support a healthier workplace culture? Some of you have already kind of mentioned it a little bit and I know that in the chat they're also asking, our attendees are asking like, okay, cool. Yes, we see this. Thank you for like defining it. Thank you for making us feel seen and validated. And I just resonate so much with everything that you're saying. So now what strategies can support a healthy your workplace culture? And then how can we dismantle this burnout culture and education? And again, keeping in mind, right, like, we're moving pebbles, it's not going to be like all great tomorrow, right? It's not going to be something that like we can implement right away. And then tomorrow it's like this whole magical thing, it's literally moving pebbles. And so keeping that in mind, what are some strategies that can support healthier workplace culture? Marcus. And then how can we dismantle the

[D]

burnout culture in education?

[A]

For me, it started with me being honest with my own self about like, what healthy boundaries look like. And I would tell my teachers all the time if I'm tired. I know you tired because you are doing way more work than I'm doing right now. You are on the front lines, you're in front of kids, you are doing the planning behind the scenes, you're doing all that work. And so I know if I'm tired doing this work, you absolutely are. And how can we together come up with a solution that keeps you feeling supported and safe? When I do my check ins, everybody I supervise, they get a check in and the questions asked, like how I get feedback on, like, how I've been supportive and what I can do differently to make sure that you feel supported in the future. Because feedback is super important to me. And if I'm doing something that's not working, I need to be able to pivot so that you can feel more supported. And some. Just some things that I have built in as a school leader over the years just built in support for teachers. And we have to be super creative with our time and our resources, especially our human capital. But I encourage people to take days off, like, all the time. I check leaves, who's using it, and if you're not using them, be like, hey, you've worked 27 days straight. You should probably take off even if a half a day to wake up late, go get some coffee, sleeping in, because you need it. Like, we all need those things. I provide a lot of incentives for me that are free, whether it's. And I know that there's this culture of, like, teachers have to dress a certain way. I've never been that type of administrator. Put some clothes on and come to work and make sure that it's appropriate. I like to tell you you can use your own discretion. But there have been opportunities where I've given teachers free days of leave and like, celebrating particular things because, like, you might be out of your leave, but, like, you also have three kids. And I can't dictate what's going to be best for you. When it's time for you to use your leave, you might have to take off to do a doctor. You might not have no hours left. Here's a free day of leave that you can use. I like to be present everywhere at all times in the event that teachers need to break because you don't get to go to the bathroom when you need to. And that's super important. Like, you got to take care of, like, those physical needs. I do my best every semester, every quarter to provide coverage for planning time or extended time for planning for teachers, because one of the pain points that I see, a lot of teachers say that they have resources to do things, but they don't have a time. I didn't plan well as a teacher at school during my planning period because I was always getting called to do stuff. But if I can give you four hours on a Friday to go to the library or stay at home to get ahead on your planning, I will cover your classes and I will teach all day because I know that that's important to you to be able to sustain, to do this work because you can't do it here, and then like, finding out, like, how my teachers like to build relationships. So I did, like, a lot of different surveys, whether it was, like, your favorite things and birthday cards and what's your apology language and what's your language of Appreciation and how do you like this to see feedback and how our learning styles, what is your learning styles? But also it came with me. One of the biggest things that I feel like I've been able to offer teachers is time back. PD is important, I get it, it's great. But I don't want to send the PD when I got to put in 700 grades. I need that time to do that work. And so being able to plan ahead for those types of interventions for support and then continually get feedback on how I can support you has really brought a lot of my teachers from the phase of burnout because they know from the beginning of the year these are the things I'm offering. If you need something additional, give me feedback and how I can support you. And it's been easier for them to sustain this work. I'm not going to say it's perfect, but it's been a lot easier for them to be able to sustain this work because the intentionality around like planning and building in those supports throughout the year. So if you can do it, do it. Be as creative as possible, use your human capital, use the people in your building, use yourself to do these things and also model what that looks like. You've built relational trust with these people. You build relational trust through your check ins and people feel safe and brave enough to share what it is in their vulnerability. So like be able to turnkey that in a way that provides support for them when they actually do need it.

[B]

Yeah. As a, as a school leader, I remember filling out a form from you, Marcus, that just tells you who I am as a human being. And I had so much fun telling you what my favorite candy was. And then some days you would just have my favorite candy on my desk and I was like, wait a minute, that's so cool.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So something so simple. I mean again, thinking about, about like school leaders can continue to utilize some of the strategies that teachers use in their own classroom. Because as an educator, I had an interest form for my students so that I know what my students were about. Right? And so I think again, just like you said, the human capital, right, the relationships part, that's really important. And then providing them time, I think time, time is really, really, really, really important. And when you give an educator or educators the autonomy to use whatever, to do whatever they like with that time, time, yo, they create some really magical stuff, right? Because now you're not letting them, you're not wasting their time and you're trusting them to like do what they got to do. And so thank you for that. Emily, what about you? What are warning? What, what strategies can support a healthier workplace culture? And how can we dismantle the burnout culture in education?

[E]

Yeah, I definitely want to echo that piece of time that Marcus was sharing. I think that that is hugely, hugely valuable. Um, there is a collection of research about burnout that quite simply and makes sense, says that burnout happens when effort does not match compensation. So the amount of energy given does not match the amount that we are get, get, getting back. Um, and I think it's, it's nice to kind of like break it down like that because then you can kind of take a look and see, like, how can we have our teachers give less effort. So what are some of the extra things that are not actually super, super essential for student achievement and safety in our schools that we might be able to take away? Or giving teachers the choice to maybe not attend a certain meeting or to opt into meetings that they think that would be a lot helpful and make their jobs a lot more helpful, giving them the autonomy of choice about meetings and professional development sessions and things like that. And then in terms of compensation, I would, I really wish we could just hand teachers a bunch more money. I wish I had that superpower and I could just wave my wand. But thinking about other ways that we can compensate teachers, as Marcus was saying, by giving those days that they can have leave, making sure that they're taking mental health days if they're available to them. And then also more than anything, appreciation. Giving back and appreciation and really routinizing that within your school culture can be hugely valuable. So if there is appreciation, mailboxes you can set up for your teachers, people can drop off notes or sticky notes that you can do it that way. Encouraging students to really consistently throughout the school year give appreciation to their teachers, teachers to give it to themselves. We had like a secret buddy appreciation thing throughout a whole year at one of the schools that I taught at that I thought was lovely. And asking teachers at the beginning of check ins or telling them things that you appreciate them or giving them the candy that, that you know, that they love, like you said, you still remember Marcus doing for you. Like, it really leaves an impression and something that I hear over and over again from, from private clients, from workshops that I do in school organizations is just wanting more feedback, positive feedback, appreciation to feel like they're being seen for the work that they're doing. So compensating teachers in that sense, it's free and it really creates a good Voice, vibe, when people are feeling appreciated and seen.

[B]

Yeah, it definitely, like, increases the motivation right, to like, continue to show up the best way that we can. So, Jamila, what about you? Let's wrap it up with your, with your response.

[D]

Yeah, I have a few ways. I think Emily and Marcus definitely spoke to some really powerful ways. There are both the, you know, macro ways and micro ways that we can approach this. I think on a macro level, a part of it is just we do have to shift the ways that we approach education and the way that we're approaching schooling. It is understanding that schools are not separate from the society that they operate within. And I think sometimes there is this thought that they are. Well, schools are a microcosm of the society that they operate within. So all of the ills and many of the harmful things that are happening within our society, it's magnified and it's reflected in our schools. So within our society, within our culture, there's. There is this grind culture. It is this deeply capitalistic focus on gain, on output. And we see that happening in our schools. And so as leaders, as educators, we do have to have a different conversation of just what is the function and what is the purpose of our school. And if it is to love, if it is to heal, if it is to teach, if it is to truly support our students, we can't operate in the same ways because then we start to get a lot of these negative results that we are seeing. I think that that is one way for schools that are serving predominantly stud of the global majority, particularly black students that are coming from poor neighborhoods. We simply have to do school differently and making sure that equity and liberation and healing is at the forefront of what we're doing. Because what we are saying is we are forcing educators in these spaces to teach in ways that are not appropriate and that are not helpful to the students that they are serving. And what happens internally, especially, especially for educators who look like the students who are there serving, for educators like myself who were teaching students who come from communities, you know, similar to the ones that students are, it is this double and this triple toll that we take on because we look like students, we look like the students that we are serving. And we've had a very similar walk, right? And so the way that we approach that has to be different. Our approach has to be trauma informed. It has to be healing centered, right? Teachers do have to be paid more. It is understanding that there is political work that has to be tapped into, there is civic work that has to be tapped into a part of this work is because our society is so individualistic and that is rooted in white supremacy culture. It is the shift to communal care. And when we are operating from a space that really honors community and collaboration, our time starts to free up. Because it's not just about us moving in ways that are not democratic, but it's really thinking about what are the gifts and the skills that each individual brings to the table. And when we focus on it in that way, as opposed to just this kind of paternalistic way, we are then able to kind of maximize time, I think in terms of our approaches to teaching and learning. And this is what I love about mastery based learning and project based learning. It's not just about giving work worksheets and packets and creating all of this grading for teachers. If we create classrooms that are healing center, that are student centered, that are rooted in joy, right, that center liberation and healing, I guarantee you teachers are not doing that much work. And you can do that work and have rigorous learning environments, I promise you. Right, but we need skilled educators who are, who, who are leading our schools. And that's not always the case. Right, but that's another conversation for another day. But all of these different things come to impact the body and they start to impact, you know, teachers inability to be well. And so it's a number of things that we have to do, right? In addition to the appreciation and the gratitude and feeding teachers. I'm a fan of feeding teachers, but also paying them more and tackling it from a, from just a variety of talking points. And that's a lot. I say more about it in my book. But there's, it's, it's multiple ways that we have to go about this, right? We're, we're shifting cultures, we're shifting a society when we talk about this work and shifting schools.

[B]

Mic drop. I mean, that's, that's it, right? The, the chat, Jamila, everyone's just snapping and yes, saying and like applauding all the things that you said, everything. And so folks, you know, please reach out to Jamila, to Marcus, to Emily, slide into those DMs, you know, on LinkedIn or wherever you find them. I highly encourage for you to continue having this conversation and to ask the questions that, that need to be asked honestly and to just, again, just to continue the conversation. Right? And so with that being said, y', all, please again make sure to reach out to Jamyla, Marcus or Emily for any questions, for any comments, any feedback that you want to tell them as well. They Would love to hear from you all. And so also the Teacher Wellness Center, Emily is giving a free initial workshop for educators you serve to support mental health and reduce staff stress, anxiety and fatigue. So here's a QR code. Use your smart device, take that QR code and we'll put the link in the chat chat as well. But this is a free initial workshop for educators that you support so that we can continue having conversations and to also implement some strategies. Right. To support mental health and reduce staff stress, anxiety and fatigue. Because these are really important topics that we need to talk about. Again, just a reminder, every Tuesday at 1:00pm Eastern time, we do have more of our leader series coming up. So our next one is reframing communication, Bridging gaps with caregivers and students. The links will be dropped in the chat as well. And so with that being said, if y' all want to hear more about Modern Classroom, please follow us on any of our social media platform Oddern ClassProj. We also have about 16k educators in our Facebook group as well that's asking all the questions, celebrating each other, providing really a community for for each other to disrupt this traditional way of teaching and learning and to really focus on joy. As Jamyla said.

[E]

Right.

[B]

Like when we're focusing on joy, we are better serving our students. And so definitely check that out. Y' all go do something that brings you joy. Also have a hard stop when it's working because our work is never done. So you might as well stop at 4pm every single day and just pick up the next day so that you have that energy and the time to love on the people that you love that you've been neglecting because. Because education is hard, right? And so with that being said, y', all, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Jamila. I love being in the same space as you, Marcus. I long to be a teacher again under you. And Emily, thank you for just all the facts that you've shared about burnout culture. So you three, thank you. Go do something that bring you joy. And I will go ahead and and work on my I am statements as well because I want to be as joyful as Jamila when I talk about myself that way. So thank you all. I'll see you all later. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to check out this episode's show notes in your podcast player or

[A]

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[B]

the speakers in today's show.

[A]

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[B]

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