#12136 How Do I Read Romans 8–9 Without Falling Into Calvinism? - Joe Heschmeyer

Summary

---

Catholic Answers Live #12136: "How Do I Read Romans 8–9 Without Falling Into Calvinism?"

Guest: Joe Heschmeyer
Date: April 3, 2025
Host: Catholic Answers (primarily “A”)
Theme: Ask Me Anything – Focused on Catholic answers to challenges around scriptural interpretation, authority, church history, and practical faith.

---

Overview

In this dynamic “Ask Me Anything” hour, Joe Heschmeyer joins Catholic Answers Live to address listener questions on a broad swath of topics—but with special emphasis on reading Romans 8–9 through a Catholic lens without veering into Calvinism. The episode is rich in scriptural exegesis, Church history, authority, and practical apologetics, adding clarity for converts and cradle Catholics alike.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Respect for the Priesthood (02:28–07:58)

• Question: Why do priests deserve reverence and what makes the priesthood beautiful? (Asked by Martha, a student from St. Joseph Academy).
• Biblical Rationale:
  • Hebrews 13:17: Obey your leaders, for they keep watch over your souls.
  • James 3:1: Teachers will be judged more strictly.
  • 1 Timothy 5:17: Elders who rule well are worthy of double honor, especially those who teach.
• Joe’s Explanation:
  • Authority flows from God—respecting priests means respecting God’s established order.
  • Office and person are both honored, especially for sacramental and spiritual stewardship.
  • Beauty of Priesthood: Priests act in persona Christi, offering Christ’s sacrifice. Their lived example of sacrificial, masculine fatherhood is “tremendously beautiful,” especially in a culture that misunderstands masculinity.

“Christ is the ultimate beauty, so if beauty is that which the intellect finds pleasing, then everything in the person of Christ is beautiful, even the ugliness of the crucifixion.”
— Joe Heschmeyer (07:00)

---

2. Ecclesiastical Authority of Bishops (08:15–10:26)

• Question: What can a bishop bind on his diocese without Vatican approval?
• Joe’s Response:
  • Bishops have authority to dispense or alter fasting rules locally, as with St. Patrick’s Day dispensations.
  • Broader changes may require episcopal conference input or Vatican coordination.

---

3. The Temple in Jerusalem and Eschatology (14:40–18:30)

• Question: Will the temple in Jerusalem be rebuilt before Jesus returns?
• Joe’s Insight:
  • Ezekiel’s prophecy is fulfilled in Christ—the true temple is Jesus’ body (cf. John 2, John 19).
  • Christians individually and collectively are now temples of the Holy Spirit.
  • No need to expect a physical temple's return: “We don’t have to worry about a new physical temple ... any more than we have to worry about Jesus literally destroying Herod’s temple and rebuilding it.” (18:25)

---

4. Reading Romans 8–9 Without Calvinism (18:51–24:43)

• Context: Daniel, a former hyper-Calvinist, expresses difficulty reading Romans 8 and 9 without a Calvinist lens.
• Joe’s Catholic Reading Strategy:
  • Always contextualize: Read Romans 8–9 in light of Romans 11, and consider Paul’s full teaching.
  • Potter and Clay analogy: Read with Old Testament background (Book of Wisdom 15, Jeremiah 18).
  • Single vs Double Predestination:
    • God is the initiator of salvation; election is real, but doesn’t mean God predestines anyone to hell (rejects double predestination).
    • “You cannot merit your own salvation in the strict sense. You can merit your own damnation. And in fact, you must. Because if your damnation isn't merited, then it is unjust.” (23:50)

“When we're reading scripture... something can be both God's work and a true human work... God is at work in all of this, in bringing us to salvation even working through our free choices.”
— Joe Heschmeyer (22:04)

---

5. Interreligious Prayer and the Papacy in Ecumenical Councils (29:31–54:54)

• Praying with Muslims (29:31–34:43):

  • Joe notes that praying with Muslims would be “dangerously misleading” as it blurs salvific distinctions and risks indifferentism.
  • He details the Church’s guidelines for interreligious interaction (citing Dominus Iesus), distinguishing between respectful dialogue and shared worship.

• Papal Authority at Nicaea (47:36–54:48):

  • Alex from London: Struggles with not seeing explicit papal jurisdiction at Nicaea, compared to Vatican I’s teaching.
  • Joe’s Response:
    • Nicaea is brief; you wouldn’t expect every doctrine spelled out in only 20 canons.
    • Canon 6 acknowledges Rome’s ancient, existing jurisdiction—using Alexandria’s regional authority as an analogy.
    • Authority of Rome is assumed and referenced as precedent.
    • Broader context from Church Fathers (e.g., Irenaeus, Optatus) affirms early church recognition of papal primacy.

“Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis prevail, that the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction in all these, since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also... acknowledging the Bishop of Rome already has jurisdiction.”
— Joe Heschmeyer (49:15)

---

6. Handling the Overload of Protestant and Orthodox Apologetics (37:15–44:51)

• Logan’s Challenge: Feeling overwhelmed by competing Christian arguments online.
• Joe’s Pastoral Guidance:
  • Witness with your life first: “You’re probably not going to single-handedly fix the Reformation—and that’s okay.”
  • It’s alright not to know every answer: “If you’re stumped, you validate someone by saying ‘That’s a good question, let me look into it and get back to you.’”
  • The Church is 2,000 years old, founded by Christ with Peter—a unique historical claim no other denomination can match.
  • Step away to avoid anxiety: Prioritize peace and a living witness over endless arguments.

“So often people want to know that we don’t just think they’re idiots for having questions about the faith… Even the proudest among us admire humility in others.”
— Joe Heschmeyer (41:08)

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Priestly Respect:
  “God has placed [priests] in authority over us. And we are respecting God when we respect that.” (05:12, Joe Heschmeyer)
• On Predestination:
  “You cannot merit your own salvation in the strict sense. You can merit your own damnation. And in fact, you must. Because if your damnation isn't merited, then it is unjust.” (23:50, Joe Heschmeyer)
• On Papacy at Nicaea:
  “Nicaea refers to ancient customs already existent. We're not inventing authority for Rome—it's taken for granted.” (51:10, Joe Heschmeyer)
• Joe’s Humor:
  (after a well-timed joke)
  A: “I wasn’t sure where you were going…”
  B: “Timing.” (29:00)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Priesthood & Respect: 02:28–07:58
• Bishops and Fasting Laws: 08:15–10:26
• Temple in Jerusalem Fulfillment: 14:40–18:30
• Reading Romans 8–9 & Calvinism: 18:51–24:43
• Interreligious Worship & Papal Authority: 29:31–34:43; 47:36–54:54
• How to Handle Apologetics Fatigue: 37:15–44:51

---

Conclusion

Joe Heschmeyer balances deep theological explanations with pastoral wisdom, scriptural exegesis, and humor. The episode is particularly valuable for converts struggling with scriptural interpretation, those seeking clarity on Catholic ecclesiology, or anyone feeling outgunned by the apologetics “wars” online.

Central takeaway: Context is everything—in Scripture, Council canons, and personal dialogue. The Catholic faith’s integrity is found in both its ancient roots and living witness today.

---

Transcript

[A]

Buying or selling your home. Real Estate for Life can connect you with a pro life real estate agent. When Real Estate for Life receives a referral fee, they donate 65% to Catholic Answers. Learn more at realestateforlife.org welcome back to Catholic Answers Live. I'm Sal Psych Hill, your host, Joe Heschmeyer, our guest for another hour of ask me anything, 8883-1878-8488-3180-7884. Joe, we had mass here. The students came with us to Mass today. And wonderful preaching from Father about. This is the part of Lent where you realize that you're not perfect. You're much clearer on the fact that some of these things are really difficult and you thought it was going to be easy, but it's not not easy. So I'm this is the week where I start saying to myself in Lent, I'm just going to have a really good Holy Week. That's what I say to myself. I'm just going to say, you know what, I'm going to I'm going to turn this thing around. I'm going to have a really good Holy Week.

[B]

Yeah, it's, I'll get better next week. Yeah, it's or two weeks from now in this case, I mean. But yeah, we don't want to lose the traditional passion tide that the last two weeks are kind of the intense period to really. Yeah. Deep in the paint, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. All right. Also a great time to remember to pray for those people coming into church. We are Darren's pointed this out to me. I don't know, maybe a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago, the number of people who call and say they're coming into the Catholic Church has skyrocketed. Something wonderful is happening out there. So it's time to pray for those people. There are spiritual difficulties that come as people approach the sacraments. And I attribute that to the fact that if the devil would like one thing for you, it's not to receive the sacraments. So there's other reasons, too. I mean, just our own venality and all the things we have to overcome as far as our own virtue. But this is a time of struggle for those coming into the church. So please remember them as you're saying your prayers tonight. We're going to come in the studio for our first question this hour. Martha, one of the students from St. Joseph Academy. Hello, Martha.

[B]

Hi. Thanks for having us. So my question is on the priesthood, why do priests deserve reverence and respect and what's so beaut?

[A]

What makes them beautiful? I'm gonna let Joe answer this, but I want to ask you first, Martha, is there any chance that this is related to a homework assignment? Are you currently trying to get Joe to do your homework?

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

Martha, if you'd like to write it.

[B]

For me, please go ahead.

[A]

Just take the.

[B]

You're totally gonna get busted. I hope your teachers lose automatically.

[A]

Just cite this. Just put a citation on there. Catholic an. Yeah, yeah. Do Martha's homework, will you?

[B]

Yeah. So I would say that there is a respect owed to the office and to the person and that this is pretty clearly laid out in scripture and we find it repeated kind of throughout the ages. People like St. Thomas Aquinas make this distinction. And so I'm going to give you three biblical citations. The first one is Hebrews 13:17, which says, to obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. So the first reason that we give them submission and respect and obedience is because God has placed him in authority over us. And we are respecting God when we respect that. That doesn't mean, I mean, obviously anytime God puts someone in authority, he is the one who's given them the authority and they can't use that authority against him. This is true of secular leaders. We're told to like, honor the emperor, but if the emperor is telling you to do something God tells you not to do, that'd be the limit. So this is true of any kind of leader that God has put in your life. If you're, you know, a minor child, your parents, if you're at work, your boss, if you know your civil authorities and leaders there, and your pastor and your bishop and the Pope. And this is something that I think is. Is too often lost by modern Christians, including modern Catholics. We live in a very anti authority kind of culture, and that's not the Christian model. We are to have a proper reverence and respect for those God has placed in authority. And the flip side to that is that person has taken on this spiritual duty that they're going to be called the task for. So we should be also praying for them. So James chapter three, verse one says, let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness. So that's what it means to say, they'll have to give account. They are going to be judged more harshly by God. And so we want to make their life easier. We want to let them live that calling out joyfully and not sadly. And then finally, St. Timothy, or, excuse me, St. Paul writing to St. Timothy in 1 Timothy 5, 17, says to let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor. So everyone, by virtue of their office, is given some honor. But those who rule well, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching, are given additional honor as well. Now, partly that's referring to money, but partly that's also referring to honor in the normal way we use that term, that we have a special respect for all priests, but especially for the, you know, the Father Mike Schmitz of the world will say, you know, the priests who seem to be especially excellent at preaching, teaching, and at governance.

[A]

What do you think, Martha? Did he get you think you get better than a C on your paper now?

[B]

Maybe like a low C. A low C? No, I'm kidding. And could you just say, like, what makes priests beautiful?

[A]

Like, have you seen Father Mike Schmitz? Oh, no, you're sorry. I have thoughts about. He's wonderful.

[B]

We don't need to go. We don't need to go that direction.

[A]

No, I just have to say he's wonderful because Joe likes to start the rumor that I have something against Father Mike Schmitz.

[B]

I don't know where this. I did not see this.

[A]

I don't know why you try to pin that on me.

[B]

Heschmeyer doth protest too much. He's like, I don't hate Father Mike Schmitz. Every time his name comes up and.

[A]

It raises the question, why is the priesthood beautiful, Joe?

[B]

Yeah. Why is the priesthood or the priest? I mean, because you're acting in the person of Jesus Christ himself. And so Christ is the ultimate beauty. So if beauty is that which the eye, meaning the eye of the mind, finds pleasing, that which the intellect and the will are inclined towards, then everything in the person of Christ is beautiful, even in the ugliness of the crucifixion. There's a beauty in Good Friday. And so the priest standing in the person of Christ, offering up, saying, this is my body, this is my blood. And in a way he can only do because Christ has commissioned him. There is a tremendous beauty to that. I think there's. There's also even excluding or beyond the sacramental kind of orientation that we can all see to see a man live out fatherhood and manliness, masculinity in this way of washing the feet and self service and all of this where he's not foregoing his masculinity, but he's laying it down in this humble way, in the way Christ does. There's something tremendously beautiful about that. In a world that wants men either not to be men or wants them to be men in a kind of beastly sort of way that we see something really lovely and seeing that there is another way that men are called to live now.

[A]

How's that? I think that's a high B at the very least.

[B]

Do you think she'll believe that I said that? We'll see if she watches the show. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, don't show her this. Martha, thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Thanks for coming in. Joe Heschmeier, our guest. It's Ask Me Anything on Catholic Answers Live. You know what?

[B]

Let's go.

[A]

Let's take a phone call. Before we take a break, Joe, let's go to Parker in illinois, watching on YouTube. Parker, thank you so much for the call. Go ahead with the question.

[C]

Hello, gentlemen.

[B]

Hi, Joe. I just wanted to tell you I.

[C]

Thought you did a really good job in your debate. I think you should do more debates for us, especially calling out the 90 anticipation fallacy that occurred. I had a article published on the magazine right after the debate explaining the problem for anybody who didn't maybe didn't catch it. But good work on that.

[B]

Thank you very. I'm glad you did the hard work of actually explaining logic.

[A]

Yeah, it is hard.

[C]

Well, it wasn't too bad. It was a very obvious fallacy. But my question was, I'm curious as to what the what a bishop in a specific diocese can do in the sense that what can he bind his diocese to without, without the Vatican's approval, like maybe special fasting rules or, or stuff like that.

[B]

Yeah. So I only know some of this. I'm sure, you know, if there are any candidates listening, they can, they can give more specific kind of rules on this. But, but I know that a particular bishop can dispense from fasting for particular causes. So for instance, in the US when St Patrick's Day falls on a Friday in Lent diocese in which there are a lot of Irish Americans might find that the bishop dispenses from the normal Lent and obligation to fast more broadly, the USCCB has relaxed the requirement to fast for meat throughout the year outside of Lent. And so there is a level that both the individual bishop and the conference of bishops has in applying the rules of fasting. There is a sense in which fasting is called for by God, but there are individual kind of case by case dispensations that the bishops can do in certain contexts. Does that help? Yeah, sounds great. Yeah. Good. All right.

[A]

Very good, Parker. Thank you very much for the call that does bring us to a break. We'll be right back with more ASK Me Anything with Joe Heschmeyer on Catholic Answers Live. Stay with us for more CATHOLIC Answers live.

[D]

Are you looking to study Catholic theology in a formal way with the guidance of faithful scholars? Underwriting for Catholic Answers Live is provided by the Augustine Institute, offering master's degrees in theology, pastoral theology, and Catholic education with flexible study options on campus, online, or both. The Augustine Institute equips students to serve Christ and his church in schools, parishes, dioceses, apostolates, and the home. Learn more today at augustine.edu. underwriting for Catholic Answers Live is provided by Magnificat. Published monthly, Magnificat features texts of daily Mass, prayers, articles, meditations, art commentaries, and more in step with the liturgical rhythm of the church. On the [e-mail] EWTN Helping People Grow in their love and understanding of God.

[E]

Thank you so much for this opportunity. I really thank you guys for the show. I listen to Asian working from home, so thank you so much. Thank you, Lord. Thank you for the Catholic faith. I love you and I thank you. It's so wonderful to talk to you. I love your radio program and listen as often as I can and share it with even friends. God bless you and keep up the good work. It's wonderful.

[A]

Welcome back to CATHOLIC Answers Live. It's Ask Me Anything this hour with Joe Heschmeyer, our guest. Joe's podcast is Shameless Potpourri, and it's growing in popularity because it's awesome. You can find it on his YouTube page. You can find it wherever you get your podcast. Shameless Podcast. Potpourri, not Shameless Potpourri. Shameless potpourri as in the pope. That's what we practice, potpourri. That's the. That's the pejorative, or it's one of the pejoratives applied. But Joe has cleverly turned it around and made it a positive. We are papists.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right, Joe?

[B]

Yeah. It's also easier to spell than the other kind of potpourri, which I found years ago when I was getting site traffic that was clearly people who couldn't spell.

[A]

Oh, yeah, the French can't spell. I don't know what they're doing, but they can't spell those.

[B]

Yeah. I think the rule is just words and letters can do whatever they want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, if you want them all to be silent, that's fine.

[A]

So what's new over at Shameless Popery? I'll give you a chance to say that before I go back to the phones. Got anything new and cool going on over there?

[B]

In honor of April Fool's Day yesterday, I did one on the church's gallows humor, where I just looked at saints who were very funny about their own martyrdoms, which sounds very weird if you're not familiar with the lives of the saints. The many of the saints had amazing kind of levity in the face of torture and execution. And the church has a certain ironic sense of humor where often. Well, to give one example, St. Lawrence, he is slowly executed by being burnt to death. And one of the charges Christians in that age faced, as, you know, as Catholics, is that Catholics are cannibals. Right. You eat the flesh of Christ, and he pokes fun at the Romans for being cannibals by yelling out as he's being killed, turn me over. The means cooked on this side. So if that wasn't like, darkly humorous enough, the Catholic Church responds by making him the patron saint of chefs and firefighters.

[A]

That's very funny.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah. And then tomorrow I'm on a much more serious topic about sexual ethics and whether we can say from reason alone that things like gay marriage aren't. Aren't consistent with natural law.

[A]

Ah. All right. Check it out. It's shameless.

[B]

So tonal shifts all over the place. Yeah, well, that's.

[A]

I. I do think you're getting known for that a little bit. Like, it's fun and light hearted, but you're. You're willing to tackle the toughest stuff as well.

[B]

Yeah, that's. At least I don't mind. Right.

[A]

All right, let's go to Maria in New Jersey listening on the Ave Maria radio app. We're glad you're here, Maria. Go ahead with your question for Joe Heschmeyer.

[E]

Okay.

[B]

Hello. Hi. Hello. Hi.

[E]

I'd like to know if there's anything or talk about it regarding the temple in Jerusalem being rebuilt before Jesus comes back.

[B]

Okay, Very good question. And can I ask maybe a follow up of my own? Like what. What is your reason for wondering if the temple will be built in Jerusalem?

[E]

Just having heard that over time. And then there were temples before.

[B]

Great. Well, yeah. So that the last eight chapters of the book of Ezekiel in the Old Testament describes the coming of a new temple. And you'll find similar, like, temple language used throughout the New Testament. As well. And so there's a certain, certain groups of Protestants who take all that very literally, that there's going to be a new building. And the sad thing about that is we don't have to go very deep to realize that the temple is the body of Christ, because we're told that explicitly in John 2. So let me unpack that a little bit. In Ezekiel 47, one of the properties of this temple is that streams of living water flow from the side of it. Now, when the second temple is built, it doesn't have miraculous streams flowing from its side, but when Jesus is on the cross and his side is pierced, streams of water flow forth. And you see this in John 19. If that's not clear enough, Jesus says, destroy this temple, and in three days I'll rebuild it. And John tells us directly he means the temple of his body. So there's layers to this. But here's what you need to understand. The temple is a place of two things. Number one, it's the place of divine presence. And number two, it's the place of divine sacrifice. Christ's body is both of those things. Like the whole reason that the temple in Jerusalem ever existed. Well, the first reason is because the holy of holies is there. Because you have the Ark of the Covenant, where the glory of God resides. Jesus's body more fully fulfills what was going on in the ark. Because now it's not just the Shekinah glory of God, it's God himself in the flesh. Second, because God was present there, this is where sacrifices were made. So you have Yom Kippur and you have, you know, all. Like the whole temple system is built around making sacrifices in divine presence. But Jesus in his body is actually the one who offers the perfect sacrifice. And then he gives us his body, the body of Christ, so that we, the church, who become temples in the Lord, both individually and collectively. Scripture says, partake of the body of Christ. So you have your body, which is a body of Christ by virtue of your baptism. It's a temple of the Lord, a temple of the Holy Spirit. St. Paul says that explicitly. Then we have the body of Christ collectively, the whole church. And then you have the Eucharist as the body of Christ. And so all of this comes together at the Mass where we make our own offerings and we unite them with the offering of Jesus Christ on the cross. And so it's the body of Christ in the temple of Christ, the temple of the Lord. Now, I talk about all of this in my book, the Eucharist is really Jesus. So if you'd like, I'd be happy to send you a copy of that. Where I go much deeper in this, but the. I don't know if it's fair to say short answer at this point, but the shortish answer is we don't have to worry about a new physical temple being built in Jerusalem where the Dome of the Rock is, any more than we have to worry about Jesus literally destroying Herod's temple and rebuilding it in three days.

[E]

Uh huh. Yeah.

[A]

All right, well if you want to, if you'd like a copy of the book, the Eucharist is really Jesus. Maria, just hang on. We'll get an address and send it right off to you there in New Jersey and maybe look forward to talking with you again sometime. Daniel's down in Atlanta, Georgia, watching on YouTube. Welcome Daniel. Got a question for Joe?

[E]

Yes, thank you very much for taking my question.

[A]

We're very happy to.

[B]

Yes.

[E]

So I come from a very Protestant Calvinist background, like hyper Calvinist. Me and my wife are to be received into the church in Easter.

[B]

But welcome home.

[E]

Thank you.

[C]

What I'm struggling with is reading passages like Romans 8 and 9 and not.

[E]

Reading Calvinism into that. It's, it's hard for me to, to read, to read those passages and see.

[C]

It any other way.

[E]

I've been doing it my whole life.

[C]

It's just like, what would you.

[B]

Yeah, so I guess a few things. One, I would recommend reading the broader context of these things and that's going to be in a few different ways. One of those is going to be reading it, for instance, in light of Romans 11. And so Romans 11 talks about those who are broken off. You know, we talked about this earlier, you know, with the images of branches being broken off. And so a view that says everything is predestined where, you know, the, the elect are going to persevere, they're not going to be broken off. Doesn't sit very comfortably with what Paul goes on to say in Romans 11. So that doesn't seem like a good read of what Paul is saying. Second, the potter and clay imagery that Paul uses in Romans should be read in its original context by reading like wisdom as well as reading Jeremiah. Is it Jeremiah or Isaiah? No, It's Jeremiah, Jeremiah 18. So find the book of Wisdom 15 talks about this. And so I would read Wisdom 15 to give some of the biblical background because a lot of times when, when Calvinists are reading this, they don't know the Book of Wisdom. They don't, they don't know the kind of background to these passages. So I guess I would say that there is a clear sense in which these, these passages are being misread by the fact that they don't agree with the other things St. Paul has said. Or you go to Romans chapter two, where he talks about those who are being judged based on their works. So you have all of those kind of passages. So then how do we understand election in light of that? Is that kind of. Or predestination in light of that? Is that a fair way of framing the question that you have, like, how do we make sense of the full kind of evidence that we get from Paul?

[E]

Yeah, definitely what you said so far makes sense. I, I definitely, I definitely need to check out that passage in wisdom. I can, I can definitely see that.

[C]

It would be easy to make the.

[E]

Case that Romans 8 is saying something else when your Bible is incomplete.

[B]

Right, right.

[E]

Yeah, but, but yeah, yeah, that, that would be. Yeah. How do we make sense of that in light of election?

[B]

Yeah, so when we talk about election, the important thing is that God is the one who is the initiator of salvation. We don't bring. So I, I don't know if you heard the earlier conversation about the parable of the wedding banquet, that Christ is the one who goes out and brings people to the wedding. And it's not that we just invite ourselves, we can't do any of that to bring ourselves to the wedding by our own initiative. Even when we have the feeling like we are the ones, you know, we decide to just start searching for the truth about God. And when we find ourselves in right relationship with God, and it might feel internally like it's all us, all of that is the work of the Holy Spirit preparing us in the first place. And so in all of this, God is at work. But something can be both God's work and a true human work. So when we're reading scripture, for instance, is that divinely inspired? Is. Is the author God? Yes. Is the author the human author also? Yes. And it's not as if the human author finds the pen, like, just moving in his hand and he has no control over it. It is at once both fully human and fully divine. And the reason is because God works at a different level of reality and of causation. So God is at work in all of this, in bringing us to salvation, even working through our free choices, knowing how we're going to choose things, and bringing those things together for his good pleasure. And he aids us with divine grace to do things we wouldn't have done on our own. So we want to affirm all of that. So in the sense of single predestination, are the saints predestined by God? We would say yes. What we don't believe in and what St. Paul never describes is the Calvinist notion of double predestination, that there are some people that God predestines for hell. That doesn't follow the fact that you have to get an invite to the wedding. It doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't come to the wedding wasn't invited. They might have been invited and then refused the invitational. Nature, the divine initiative, and all of that is preserved in that analogy. Or, you know, to use the biblical example, the spiritual life is like the gift of biological life. It is a gratuitous gift. We've done nothing to earn being alive. We can still end our own lives. And so it is possible, we would say, putting it as simply as I can, you cannot merit your own salvation in the strict sense. You can merit your own damnation. And in fact, you must. Because if your damnation isn't merited, then it is unjust. Does that make sense? Does that help at all?

[E]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[B]

Good.

[E]

Yes, it does. Thank you very much.

[A]

All right. Daniel and I forgot. Are we sending Daniel a book? Now that I'm asking, We have to send him a book, but yeah.

[B]

Daniel, you want a book about the Eucharist on the early church? Do you want Sy's book on Jesus? What sounds good to you?

[E]

Yeah, the early church would be great.

[B]

Wonderful.

[A]

Okay, great. We would love to send you a book on the early church. Not a book about Jesus. Even if it's a really super good book about Jesus. Hang on, Daniel, don't go anywhere. We just need an address for you. The Early Church. That's the one we're sending, right? The early church was the Catholic Church.

[B]

The early church was the Catholic Church.

[A]

The early church was the Catholic Church. Very, very fine book. I think your most popular book. Joe, do you have any idea which is your most popular?

[B]

I don't know what my most popular book is.

[A]

Pope Peter maybe, too.

[B]

I hear the Eucharist is really Jesus. I mean, especially during the year for the Eucharist, there was a lot of. Yeah, I don't find it's good for me to, like, keep track of all that stuff super closely. So I do what I can and then let people like it or not like it.

[A]

If I had more than one book, I would keep track of it. Obsessively obsessively. Joe Heschmeyer is our guest. Our number is 888-318-7884. It's Ask Me Anything so you can ask him anything. We'll get right back to it after this on Catholic Answers Live. Have you ever wondered about the mysterious, even obscure aspects of the Catholic faith? Dive into the Jimmy Akin Podcast where Jimmy brings together information from many fields as he pushes the boundaries of apologetics. Tune in today to the Jimmy Akin podcast Mysteries of the Faith, a highly entertaining, informative and at times humorous show that will help you grow in your faith. Visit jimmyakinpodcast.com today to subscribe.

[D]

Lots of people have big questions about Catholicism. It needs a big Book of answers. And now it's got one. The Big Book of Catholic Answers is filled with helpful replies to more than 250 questions about the faith. Questions about God, salvation, history, the Creed, the Bible. The list goes on and on. Order your copy of the Big Book of Catholic answers [e-mail] or ask for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you.

[A]

What was the church like in its infancy? In a word, Catholic. And Joe Heschmeyer has the receipts in his best selling book, the Early Church Was the Catholic Church. He gives you the details from the historical records of the first two centuries of Christianity. Right now, get a copy for just $10 plus free shipping. If you live in the continental United States, get more information and order. The Early Church was the Catholic church@the.

[D]

Earlychurchwascatholic.Com if you're not a Bible scholar, the full message of how the Sunday Mass readings fit together can be tough to comprehend. Apologist Carlo Broussard is here to help. Join Carlo every Friday for the Sunday Catholic Word podcast. In each episode, he unpacks the scripture readings for that Sunday and brings them all together so you can better understand and defend the faith. Visit sundaycatholicword.com to subscribe. That's sundaycatholicword.Com on Thursday's Take Two with Jerry and Debbie. Our topic is have you friended yourself? Not on social media, but in life. Do you like the person you are? And now back to Catholic Answers Live.

[A]

Welcome back. Catholic Answers Live. Joe Heschmeyer is our guest. He's having an easy day today. Cause I am slow. I have not had a quick response to anything today. Joe, I've been slow and I feel like that's to your advantage when you're picking on me.

[B]

Do you know the hardest part about telling a joke?

[A]

No.

[B]

Timing.

[A]

Steve Martin Used to do it like this. Timing.

[B]

Nice. I like that you let me have that one even though you already knew.

[A]

Well, I didn't know where. I didn't know. I wasn't sure where you were going, but I didn't know if you're gonna do that. Extremely old Steve Martin joke. Oh, I'm getting better. I'm warming up now. I'm feeling better.

[B]

Yeah. There you go.

[A]

Davis is in New England. Davis, thank you very much for the call. Go ahead with the question for Joe.

[E]

Yeah, hi. A few years ago, Pope Francis inaugurated the Abrahamic family house, Abu Dhabi, which had a church, a mosque, and a Jewish temple. It's been reported that Pope Francis has actually prayed with Muslims and even has designed joint liturgies for monotheists to pray together that don't even mention Jesus. And, you know, I know. Gotta be skeptical what you hear, but it does seem that he does pray with Muslims.

[B]

I don't know of cases of him praying with Muslims. I. I know about the Abrahamic House. And actually, there. There are a few instances in which, you know. So if you go to the Air Force Academy in Colorado, you'll find a similar sort of setup in their chapel where it's a Protestant chapel, it's a Catholic church, and I believe it's a mosque. And maybe one other thing as well, given kind of the nature of what's kind of on offer. This is just where you go for chapel if you're in the military. So it's not completely unprecedented to have a Catholic space or, you know, for that matter, go to an airport sometime and see the strange mix of. I've been to airports that have both, like a tabernacle with the Eucharist in it and then also, like, prayer rugs and an arrow pointing to Mecca. And so you do find these very strange things where it's trying to reach a lot of different people. So what is your question about that?

[E]

But if Pope Francis prayed with Muslims, would that be a sin?

[B]

I think if Pope Francis prayed with Muslims, that would risk being dangerously misleading, because even though we can acknowledge that Muslims are, you know, share with us and belief in the one God, the God of Abraham, a lot of their beliefs about the one God, the God of Abraham, are deficient. And so the cdf, in a document called Dominus Jesus, then headed by Cardinal Ratzinger, warns that while we have a sincere respect for the religions of the world, at the same time the truth of the faith rules out in a radical way the mentality of indifferentism characterized by a religious Relativism, which leads to the belief that one religion is as good as another. It is true. Excuse me. If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that, objectively speaking, they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison to those who in the Church have the fullness of the means of salvation. So in our worship, we want to be very mindful of that fact that it isn't just good enough. You know, you're a monotheist or good enough, you're outside the church, but you've got something. No. We can recognize on the one hand that God is active and that someone who is sincerely seeking God may be a beneficiary, divine grace, particularly when compared to those who aren't seeking God. But we don't want to suggest that therefore, you know, one mode of worship is as good as another or one religion is as good as another. And to be clear, I don't think Pope Francis is doing that, but this would be something that we'd want to not do. Okay, does that, does that help?

[E]

Yeah, I just, I've seen so many examples of Catholic bishops, you know, having Ramadan ceremonies and where, where are you seeing this stuff?

[A]

I have not seen the evidence.

[E]

Seems pretty strong. Well, I'll send that to you.

[A]

Okay. You can send it to radioatholic.com if you'd like. Radiocatholic.com I just have not been privy to that.

[B]

Yeah, I think there is a different if you go to an ifchar, like the meal at the end of the day during Ramadan, that's different than engaging in Muslim worship. So going to a meal with Muslims, even a meal that has some religious significance, is different than, you know, making like an offering or something like this. So we do want to keep some distinctions very clear. So remember, you know, St. Paul talking to the Corinthians even tells them they can eat food sacrificed to idols, which previously had not been allowed. So in a pagan culture, particularly, the breadth of things that you might be called to do without compromising the faith can be a little wider, but in a way that we always want to be very careful. We're not suggesting, you know, one religion is as good as another or anything like this. And so we have historically made a pretty sharp distinction between, like, inter religious dialogue and inter religious worship. So even when the churches had prayer gatherings that had been very controversial in themselves, like the gathering at Assisi, they weren't all praying together. There was a request that everyone pray. But because we had these sharp Differences in religion. It wasn't treated as just like, we're all going to pray in one big liturgy.

[A]

Davis, thank you. I would like to see those materials, if you wouldn't mind sending them to radioatholic.com thank you. I hope that Joe's response was helpful, and you're certainly welcome to call again sometime. Was something that you said about airport chapels?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's very hard to visit an airport chapel and not feel sad. I don't know why they just. But I was in an airport last month on a Sunday morning and I heard the call several times. Catholic Mass was being offered. You can make your way to the Catholic Mass if you want. And it was not at a time that I could go to. But that was nice to hear that. It was nice to hear that a priest had come to celebrate Mass in the airport for people.

[B]

Yeah. And honestly, I think if you. If you have a layover and you're in an airport that has the Eucharist, what better way? I mean, it's either that or buying overpriced stuff.

[A]

I honestly have not seen that. I have not seen that.

[B]

But I. I believe the Newark airport.

[A]

Oh, the Newark airport does.

[B]

I believe so. So, yeah. If you check out airports in traditionally Catholic places, you'll often find more Catholic stuff in an airport.

[A]

It feels like the Star Trek chapel. Like, I'm not exactly sure who we're worshiping here. Like.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, the new Kansas City one is a little embarrassing in this regard. I think it's called, like a reflection room. Exactly. That was literally what the bathroom is for.

[A]

It's called a reflection room.

[B]

I think it's something. Something really lame like that.

[A]

Is chapel too upsetting?

[B]

I think, yes. I think that they wanted to not offend anyone by having the word chat, having a basic recognition that people might want to pray. Yeah.

[A]

Well, it's interesting times. We live in Davis. Thanks again for the call. Let's go to Logan in Huntington Beach, California. I don't know if you remember the last time Logan called, Joe. I believe that I remember Logan from the last time he called.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Do you remember Logan, brah? Dude.

[E]

Yeah, I do.

[A]

Welcome, dude.

[E]

What's up, dude?

[A]

We liked talking to you so much before Logan.

[B]

I'm glad you made quite an impression in a positive way because of your winsome attitude and manner of speech.

[A]

There's just nobody like Southern Californians. There's nobody in the world like Southern Californians.

[B]

True. What's your question?

[E]

Yeah, yeah. So no, I just. Here, give me a second. I Wrote it down. But then I started doing chores and stuff. Okay. Yeah. So I just had a question like, like, you know, because we live in a world of like a lot of like, you know, different ways. I mean there's people from every direction telling as far as Christianity goes. And what I'm talking about is Protestant denomination and even orthodoxy. There's just so many people telling you what to do at like and you know, there's so many along with that there's a lot of claims coming at your way and you know, it's. Sometimes it gets overwhelming and you know my, and I'm not like an apologist either, so.

[B]

So like.

[E]

And even when you bring in the church fathers, which I think you know, takes down those like sort of like need God.net arguments pretty fast.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

You still got like, you still got like your, your like Jordan Coopers and you're like other.

[B]

Sure.

[E]

Which is kind of like what I'm entering into as follows. Like apology apologetics goes where these people are kind of like even like, like they're even using the church father. So it's like, it's like at a certain point it's like like how do we. Like, like I just feel like it's non stop arguments and like I'm, I just kind of feel like stressed out because there's like constantly like an argument coming my way. You know what I mean?

[B]

It's just kind of like yeah, absolutely.

[A]

This is a great point, Logan.

[B]

This is, this is very much kind of the world we can find ourselves in at Catholic Answers. And I think it's good to remember you're probably not going to single handedly fix the Reformation and that's okay. So you can do what you can kind of in the place that you've been planted and with the tools that you've been given. And so part of that is going to include knowing like, well which areas do you just not know well enough or have the desire interest to kind of go down those, those rabbit holes. So I'd say this, number one, everyone is called to be a witness to the gospel. But number two, the chief way in which you're called to do that is through your own story, through your own testimony, through your own witness of life. First Peter 3:15, where you know, Society 3:15 gets its name here at Catholic Answers says, always be prepared to make a defense in apologia to anyone who calls you to account for the hope that is in you. Yet do it with gentleness and reverence and keep your conscience clear so that when you're abused. Those who revile your good character, your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. So if you're living a holy life and you're behaving in an upright and holy manner, especially online, where it's so easy to do the opposite, or it's so easy to be a jerk or a creep or whatever, if you're living a holy and Christian life and you're carrying yourself in that way and you are overflowing with hope and you're able to explain why you're doing the work of evangelization, and that has an important effect. There are plenty of people who, when you talk to them about their story and who made a really big, important change in their life that that led them to convert, that led them to consider Christianity, led them to become Catholic, whatever. It's not a professional apologist. It's not a popular Catholic author. It's somebody was just loving and caring and gentle and showed them by the whole way that they lived the truth of the gospel. And so we are called to do that. Third thing I would say is that there are going to be times, no matter how much you know, that you find yourself in a conversation where somebody stumps you and the temptation there is to lie or to guess or to pretend and don't do that, that our. Our fight, as St. Paul says in Ephesians 6, is not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principality. This is a spiritual battle, not a temporal one. And if you give in to lying, you're letting the enemy win. It is much better to do the following, to just say, that's a really good question. I don't know. Let me look that up and I'll get back to you. This does a few things. Number one, you validate the person, which does more good than I think we realize. So often people want to know that we don't just think they're idiots for having questions about the faith. You know, this is totally normal, this is good, and you're showing respect to them as a person, that makes them more likely to take you seriously and to respect you in return. Second, you're showing that you care more about the truth than about the sensation of feeling right. By admitting that you don't know, this is a move of humility. And even the proudest among us admire humility and others. Third, even though you don't know, you're signaling the fact that there probably is an answer out there that the Catholic Church does have an answer, that there are Catholic answers. And so you're not just saying, well, I guess we'll never know and leaving it there. But then fourth, you're actually doing one of the hardest things. Especially I find this in interpersonal conversations, like in real life, not so much online. You'll have these situations where maybe it's a co worker or a friend suddenly opens up to you about the faith in a way they hadn't in the past. And sometimes the walls just kind of come down for a little bit and if you're not careful, you can miss the opportunity and the walls go back up and then you don't know how to re engage that conversation. But if there was something where you told them that you were going to get back to them, you've given sort of a key to yourself to, to re engage that conversation. Because now you can say, hey, a week ago you asked me why Catholics do xyz or you asked me how to make sense of this Bible verse or whatever it is. And then you come back with an answer. And this shows how much you care for the person and care for the truth. And you just bought yourself a second date to talk about apologetics and to talk about Christ. So when you find yourself stumped or overwhelmed or any of these things, I would go to that. But then the fourth and final thing I'll say, I know this is a very long answer, but I wanted to kind of give these, these tools both for you and anybody else who may be feeling the same way. If you find that it's discouraging you or overwhelming you or causing you trouble, step away from it. Like there's, if we just step back and think about it logically, there are plenty of very smart people in every Protestant denomination. There are plenty of people trying to follow Jesus in every Protestant denomination and in every Orthodox church this is true. But that's obviously not enough because there's smart people and people pursuing the truth and trying to serve Jesus in the next denomination and the next one and the next one, you just happen to be seeing whichever one. And so is that the system that Christ calls us to? That just whichever group you happen to see, you go and join that group? Of course not. He founds a church. And so somebody might have very clever ways of co opting the church fathers or co opting scripture, but we know rationally they can't possibly be right. Because Jesus doesn't build a church to have it go into hibernation for 15 centuries until Luther or Lutherans or any Protestant denomination. And we know that he founds a church with Peter as the head. And so any form of church that isn't a, 2000 years old and B, with the successor of Peter at the head, is disqualified from consideration.

[A]

Logan, I want to come back to you. Is that a satisfactory and helpful answer to you?

[B]

Yeah. Thank you, Joe.

[E]

That brought me a lot of peace. Thank you.

[B]

Good. I'm so happy to be here.

[A]

Bless you, Logan. Logan, I don't know if we've sent you the book, the Big Book of Catholic Answers, but as you're, you know, Mullen things, it's got 250, you know, the main questions about the Catholic faith and the answers did we send it to you before or No.

[D]

I have.

[E]

That one, I think.

[A]

Oh, you have the Big Book of Catholics. All right, I got another one for you then. Daily Defense, Jimmy Akins book, 365 days plus one.

[E]

Oh, yeah. No, I don't think I have that.

[A]

All right, Logan, if you'll give us an address, we'll send it off to you.

[B]

Awesome. Thank you.

[A]

All right. Thank you. Thanks very much. We'll take a quick break. Right back with more ASK Me Anything with Joe Heschmeyer on CATHOLIC ANSWERS Live. You're listening to Catholic Answers Live. Underwriting for Catholic Answers Live is provided by Real Estate for Life. Real Estate for Life connects home buyers and sellers to real estate agents while supporting pro life organizations. On the [e-mail] the most original Catholic.

[B]

Content is on EWTN Radio. What have you always wanted to know about the Vatican? Well, I'm your Vatican Insider and I answer that question when I bring you the news about the pope. Vatican City and I share insights and stories from a broad spectrum of church ministries.

[D]

Vatican Kin Insider with Joan Lewis, Saturday night, 9 Eastern on EWTN Radio.

[A]

Who was the first Catholic in your family? Were they evangelized by a friend, a co worker, a stranger? Did you ever think that you could be that person that God uses to save a soul and that soul could save their family, their grandchildren and generations to come? At St. Paul Street Evangelization, a Catholic nonprofit, we train, equip and mobilize Catholic disciples to do the urgent work of evangelization. Catholic Answers is supported in part by St. Paul Street Evangelization. Streetevangelization.com Welcome back to CATHOLIC Answers Live. Joe Heschmeyer is our guest and we're going across the Atlantic to London, England, United Kingdom. Alex watching on YouTube. Hello, Alex. How's your night going?

[B]

Good. Good.

[C]

How are you guys?

[B]

Very good.

[A]

Is somebody sleeping in the house? So you're talking quietly.

[C]

I'll speak louder if you want.

[A]

No, no, it's okay. I was just. Because it's the middle of the night there in London.

[B]

I noticed you didn't answer the question.

[A]

You know, that's. I apologize. That was prying of me. That was rude. It's just that I know that it's midnight there. Just go ahead, Alex, with whatever question you got.

[C]

What I'll say is I see lots good about Catholicism, as in I can't really explain miracles like Fatima and La Salette. And I think there are lots of good arguments in terms of the early Church Fathers for papacy, but the make or break in the situation for me is Nicaea, because I just can't see the indication of the papacy or you have in Vatican 1 in past returnus, like universal jurisdiction or ex cathedral statements. In Nicaea, I see in the canons you can find deacons, priests, bishops, metropolitans in the papacy. Can we find this in the acts or the canons? This, for me is a huge issue because this is like the largest, the most significant event in Christian history, outside of, of course, the disciples and Christ himself.

[B]

Yeah, I guess I'd say a couple things. First, I wouldn't expect to find everything in the first Council of Nicaea, even everything that we know is important to the Christians. In the 4th century, there are only 20 canons. And the Creed like this is a pretty short. So, you know, it'd be like saying, I'm going to take one book of the Bible and anything I don't find there must not be important. And that's limiting the scope way too much and it seems a little bit arbitrarily. Nevertheless, we do have a clear indication in canon 6 of the First Council of Nicaea about the authority of the Church of Rome. And it's in a little bit of a counterintuitive way. So it says, let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis prevail, that the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction in all these, since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also. So notice the council is establishing juridical authority for the Bishop of Alexandria and not for the Bishop of Rome, but just acknowledging the Bishop of Rome already has jurisdiction. And then likewise other churches, Antioch, in the provinces, ancient privileges are preserved but not established. So this is a nod towards the fact that nothing is being invented here, but we're talking about ancient customs. And so these are being reaffirmed in Alexandria and in Antioch and Libya and Pentapolis, but they're not being reaffirmed because they're not challenged, seemingly in Rome. Likewise with the First Council of Constantinople, the Eastern fathers try to put in a canon that says that the bishop of Constantinople shall have the prerogative honor after the Bishop of Rome. So even then, when they're trying to move the bishop of Constantinople into second place, they don't even attempt to move him into first place. But there's clearly some kind of authority and a juridical authority, not just an authority of honor in the sense of honorifics, but an actual juridical authority that's being kind of nodded to by both First Nicaea and first Constantinople. Now, because of the sparse nature of the canons and because they're referring to ancient customs that they treat as already well known, not much more is being said there. And so that's where you have to look outside of the ecumenical councils themselves and say, okay, what did Christians in this time period believe was the authority of the Bishop of Rome? And a great resource for this time period would be Saint Optavius of Milevis and his book against the Donatist. And when she talks about how the singular apostolic see is Rome and everyone has to agree with this because the. The bishop of Rome is the successor of Peter and talks a great deal about this. You can go back even further about the necessity to agree with the Church of Rome in Against Heresies, book three, chapter three, by St. Irenaeus back in 180. That's, you know, about a century and a half before the first Council of Nicaea. So when it talks about these ancient customs, we have to look outside of First Nicaea to see what those ancient customs were, what was being kind of respected and honored about the juridical authority of Rome. Does that make sense?

[C]

On Canon 6, I seem to read it in a different way, which is that it equates the authority of Rome to Alexandria in the sense that they both have jurisdiction over other regions close to them.

[B]

Oh, I mean, they certainly do that.

[C]

And I'm also worried about the fact that you seem to, like, instead of talking about Nasir, you seem to jump to other. Another council, and then you jump to other Church fathers. So would you.

[B]

Oh, so I was trying to put it in context.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So like, even, even when we talk about the Nicene Creed, we don't get that from the First Council of Nicaea alone. We get that from the First Council of Constantinople. So those two in particular in 325 and 381 are often viewed sort of together for this reason. Does that. So, like, you can't even get The Nicene Creed in the form that we have it from just the First Council of Nicaea.

[C]

But can you understand the issue? I have, in the sense that this is completely absent. And in fact, what you have in Canon 6 is an implication of equality between Alexandria and Rome. Is that not what.

[B]

Yeah, I don't think. It's not saying there's an equality between them, and I don't think you'd find anyone in that period who claimed that. Like, I can understand how if you only read that without any historical context, you might come to the wrong reading. But that's why we have to read these things in context, especially when it's making references to the ancient customs. You can't read it in isolation. You can't do a Sola canon of, you know, Canon 6. That's not going to be a good reading, because it's referring to things outside of itself. Like when it says, let the ancient customs prevail, it doesn't tell you what those ancient customs are. It expects you to already know that.

[C]

Okay, so. Okay, so in saying that the ancient customs prevail, can you remind me, could you read out the sentence in Canon six? Because I'm not looking at a screen right now, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[B]

Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya and Pentopolis prevail. Let the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction in all these, since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also. Likewise in Antioch, in the provinces, let the churches retain their privileges. So you have to know what those privileges are, what the ancient customers are, to make sense of what Nicaea is saying.

[A]

Unfortunately, that brings us to the very end. Alex, go to bed now. Will call us again. We'll have another conversation. I do appreciate that you called from across the Atlantic, but we gotta end. Joe Heschmeyer, thank you very much. I always enjoy the two hours.

[B]

It was a pleasure.

[A]

Yeah, it was nice to have all the students from St. Joseph's Academy as well, with their excellent questions.

[B]

Great. And I appreciate all the questions today. I thought it was a very good question.

[A]

I have to agree with you on that, Joe. Lots of great questions today. Well, unfortunately, we're at the end. We'll do it again tomorrow, God willing, right here on Catholic Answers Live.