#12179 How Were Popes Elected Throughout Church History? - Tim Staples

Summary

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Catholic Answers Live – Episode #12179

Topic: How Were Popes Elected Throughout Church History?
Host: Cy Kellett
Guest: Tim Staples
Date: May 2, 2025

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Episode Overview

This lively "Ask Me Anything" episode welcomes senior apologist Tim Staples to answer questions on a wide range of Catholic topics, with special focus on the history of how Popes have been elected. Sprinkled with humor and friendly banter, the show’s central segment unpacks the evolution of papal elections—from earliest Christian times, through medieval developments, to the modern conclave system.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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Opening Banter and Poll: “What Would Your Papal Name Be?”

• The episode kicks off with a light-hearted poll for listeners: "What name would you choose if you were chosen as Pope?" (00:34)
• Tim Staples humorously considers possible names:

  "I would love to see John Paul III, I would love to see Francis II, and I would love to see Benedict XVII." (02:31, Tim)

• The hosts joke about stringing together the names of recent Popes, e.g. “John Paul Benedict Francis.”
• Reflective remark:

  "This is not just history, it’s the Holy Spirit at work here, you know... That’s what makes it beautiful, doesn’t it? God’s will is going to be done." (03:33, Tim)

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The Mystery and Process of Papal Elections

Divine Providence & Human Freedom

• Tim Staples discusses how Catholics believe papal elections blend God’s providence with human free will (04:15).

  "That great mystery of our free will...God’s will involves...our free will. And it’s exciting...we know all things ultimately work together for the good." (04:15, Tim)

Observations about Potential Popes

• Discussion about the qualities of current Cardinals—number of languages spoken, academic degrees, and global diversity (05:32).

  "They’ll just talk about these cardinals...he’s got two PhDs and he speaks eight languages. The Church has this one who only speaks five languages..." (05:42, Cy)

• Light quips about Americans only speaking “English and pig Latin.” (06:06, Cy)

Predicting Duration of Next Conclave

• Tim predicts the next conclave “might go a little longer” than the last (which concluded in about 25 hours), but "not much...There’s just too many good guys." (06:24, Tim)

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Main Topic: How Were Popes Elected Throughout Church History?

(Prompted by caller Ryan, 19:02)

[19:22 – 26:08] Tim Staples delivers a scholarly, yet accessible summary:

• Early Centuries:

  • Initially, the Roman clergy and the Christian people of Rome elected their bishop (the Pope). Influential bishops from outside Rome sometimes had a say.
  • “From the earliest days, it was simply the people, the Roman clergy, and the people of Rome elected their bishop...Very much a local event, even though it had universal implications.” (19:22, Tim)

• Constantinian and Imperial Era:

  • As Christianity gained favor and Rome grew, emperors and Christian kings increasingly interfered in papal selections, prompting the need for reform and clarification.

• Development of the College of Cardinals:

  • The College of Cardinals arose out of necessity, formalized by a papal bull in 1059.
  • “The creation of the College of Cardinals didn’t happen until 1059, but it wasn’t like the creation happened immediately right there. There was already a movement in the Church of certain men who were close to the Holy Father that had authority…” (21:05, Tim)
  • The Pope alone could elect cardinals and establish voting rules.

• Biblical Precedent—Acts 1:

  • Tim draws on the precedent of St. Peter establishing rules for Matthias’s election in Acts 1.

    “It was Peter who laid out the rules. He quotes Psalm 69 and Psalm 109...He established the rules, how the election would happen. And...they chose Matthias by lot.” (22:40, Tim)

  • Early methods reflected “rolling the dice,” trusting God to guide the choice.

• Medieval to Modern Developments:

  • Over time, papal electoral rules developed further, especially in the 13th century: “Conclave, from Latin 'with key'—cardinals locked in to deliberate; age and eligibility rules developed.”
  • Only Popes can change election rules—a tradition maintained up to recent reforms by John Paul II (25:45, Tim).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On God and the Papacy:

  “This is the beauty of our belief in a sovereign God and us having free will...God’s will involves that great mystery of our free will. And it’s exciting...” (04:15, Tim)

• On the Role of Cardinals:

  “The College of Cardinals really grew out of necessity...the pope alone could elect cardinals and establish the rules...” (21:55, Tim)

• Scholarly Insight:

  “What started as a local event, with some influence from outside...became much more...especially as emperors and Christian kings got involved...” (20:48, Tim)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:34–06:20 — Papal names poll, light banter about conclave, process, and potential papabili
• 19:02–26:08 — In-depth answer: How were Popes elected throughout church history? [Main segment]
• 06:21–07:48, scattered throughout — More on conclave lengths and expectations
• 29:18–35:00+ — Varied listener questions (Talmud, blessing of objects, Marian symbols, use of “Yahweh”)
• 40:44–43:00+ — Miscellaneous listener questions; humor about papal names/blankets

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Additional Listener Q&A and Discussions

• Sanctuary Usage:
  Story of a toy tractor driven around the altar by schoolchildren, leading to a discussion on reverence and sacred spaces (08:11–11:44).
• Marian Symbols:
  Callers ask about Marian bumper stickers—the “M with a line” is a Marian symbol, often related to the Miraculous Medal (14:35–17:43).

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Entertaining or Noteworthy Moments

• “Papa John PizzaBella,” a playful prospective papal name (29:18, listener John).
• Cy joking about only Americans knowing two languages, “one of them is pig Latin.” (06:06)
• Tim’s advice about naming conventions and history:

  “You go in chronological order. You don’t go in reverse because we have an established precedent now because of John Paul I.” (07:24, Cy)

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Conclusion

This episode combines the gravitas of Church history and the papacy with plenty of humor and engaging audience interaction. Tim Staples provides a thorough historical outline of papal elections, showing how processes evolved from local community choice to the regulated conclave system—always within the mysterious interplay of God’s will and human agency.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

Buying or selling your home. Real Estate for Life can connect you with a pro life real estate agent. When Real Estate for Life receives a referral fee, they donate 65% to Catholic Answers. Learn more at realestateforlife.org hello and welcome to Catholic Answer. Was live on this Friday afternoon. Maybe it's a Friday evening where you are. Maybe it's even a Saturday morning. If you're listening in the Philippines or Singapore or Australia, New Zealand. I'm not going to list all the countries that are on the other side of the date line. You get the idea. We're just glad you're here with us. And you're welcome to call if you'd like. Tim Staples, our guest. It's Ask Me Anything, 888-318-78-84883. And for fun and excitement for a Friday, we decided to do a poll question today. So you get to participate in the poll question. If you want, you can just put your answer. We'll get to it in the second hour. We'll reveal the results of the poll in the second hour, but you can just go to the comments section on YouTube where this show is currently streaming, or if you have the app, it'll ask you the question. The question is as follows. What name would you choose if you were chosen as pope? And we'll find out what the most popular names are and we will report back. What name would you choose?

[B]

I just have a question. Would it have to be Cyril, or could it just be Psy. Oh, no. Cyrillus.

[A]

It's going to have to be Cyrillus. I don't even know if that's the. It's a Greek name, actually. It's not a Latin name. So I don't know.

[B]

Are you limiting the authority of the Pope?

[A]

No. I guess the pope can do whatever he wants. Invent his own language. He could do it in Klingon. The number here is 888-318-7884. There's three lines open. Tim Staples, our guest, senior apologist here at Catholic Answers. You know him because we say his name all the time. We give away his book. Behold your A Biblical and Historical Defense of the Marian Doctrines. Hello, Tim Staples.

[B]

Hello, Cy Kellett.

[A]

All right, give me maybe your top three. I'm gonna guess. I'm just gonna guess. Pius is not in there. You wouldn't choose Pius, would you?

[B]

I don't know. Cause I love all the piouses.

[A]

Yeah. There's been a lot of them, though.

[B]

Yeah. My top three names. That is a tough one. I did not expect to get asked this at such a time as it. I would love to see John Paul iii, I would love to see Francis ii, and I would love to see Benedict xvii.

[A]

All right, well, you could do what.

[B]

But what about St. Paul VII? See, I'm canonizing.

[A]

Oh, you canonized, wow. Well, you could do what Pope John Paul I did and just pick the last two popes and then it would be Benedict Francis or you could pick the last three popes and it would be John Paul, Benedict Francis, or you could pick the last four popes and it would be John Paul, John Paul, Benedict Francis. That would be a good. John Paul, Benedict Francis.

[B]

I don't know about you.

[A]

So your top three were the last three popes. That's not very. I thought you have this comprehensive.

[B]

Because I like them all. Okay, all right.

[A]

You wouldn't be more curious.

[B]

You know, all I can say is I am so excited about the election. It's just, you know, this is just. It's not just history, it's the Holy Spirit is at work here, you know, and, and our Lord. And I love how folks, I listen to some of the commentators now and you got some who I think kind of you can go too far to the thing. Well, it's, you know, they're just instruments and God's going to choose his pope and you know, they're just little robots and then you can go the other way, sort of deist. Sort of God, that he doesn't really care.

[A]

Do your best.

[B]

Your best. But the fact is, this is the beauty of our belief, of belief in a sovereign God and us having free will. The age old, I know mystery of how human free will works in with the providence and grace of God. And that's what makes it so beautiful, doesn't it? Because God's will is going to be done. But of course, God's will involves that great mystery of our free will. And it's exciting. Si, it is. Because then we also know that all things ultimately work together for the good. Romans 8:28 is still in my Bible.

[A]

I haven't taken it out yet. Well, I look at the guy, the cardinals, as they show them, and I think one of these guys, I mean, it's not guaranteed that it's one of these guys. It's pretty likely. It's pretty likely one of these guys. And so I decided to just do it on looks. So I was looking at them like, who would look best as Pope? And I can't tell you who. I decided it's an African. I think he's gonna look great in the white, but it went entirely on. That guy would look good as a pope. Yeah.

[B]

There are quite a few really good guys.

[A]

Oh, I know.

[B]

I just can't wait for the ones.

[A]

Well, that's the other thing. These conclaves come around, and then you realize, like, they'll just talk about these cardinals. Like, he's got two PhDs and he speaks eight languages.

[B]

The church has this one only speaks five languages.

[A]

I know the guys that only speak, like, two or three languages and be like, I don't know if they could pick him. He's not really a linguist.

[B]

That'd be the Americans.

[A]

Although we do.

[B]

You know, Provost is. I think he knows, like, five, six language. I think, like, five fluently. And he can read two more. I mean, not bad for an American.

[A]

That's very impressive because we're only aware of two languages, and one of them is pig Latin. 88831. 87884 is the number. 883-187-884. I will bother you with one more conclave question.

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

Long conclave, short conclave. What do you think?

[B]

I don't think it'll be as short as last time.

[A]

That was really quick, right?

[B]

24 hours. 25 hours, I think, which is pretty quick. I would imagine this might go a little longer, but not much. Not much. That's my prediction. I cannot see it being any kind of marathon. There's just. There's just too many good guys. And you look at that College of Cardinals. It's not going to be a Marathon.

[A]

Yeah. 888-318-7884 is the number. You are welcome to call with your questions for Tim Staples. Participate in our our poll this hour, and we will report back next hour, and we'll get Tim's take on what the various names that people propose. You can do it app. You can do it by going to our YouTube site, where this show is streaming right now, and just put it in the comments. The name that you would take if you were selected pope. Tim already told us he would take John Paul Benedict Francis. That would be his name. John Paul Benedict Francis. Or do you start the other way? No, that's what you go. You go in chronological order. You don't go in reverse because we have an established precedent now because of John Paul I. Madison is in Missouri listening on the Catholic Answers Live app. Madison, awful glad you're here. Go ahead with your question for Tim.

[C]

Yeah, thank you so much. So I just have A concern about the proper use of the sanctuary. I'm a Catholic school teacher, and we had Mass today as well as a skit with some of our students, and one of the groups took a toy tractor and wrote it around the altar and then crashed it into a cardboard apple tree. And this is immediately following Mass.

[B]

Hold on, can you repeat that? That was a little bit of a shock to the system here. He drove a what?

[A]

So they were putting on a play.

[B]

A tractor into the sanctuary.

[C]

Yeah, they brought it into the sanctuary, put it down. He got on the tractor, drove it around the altar, and then crashed it into a cardboard apple tree.

[B]

Oh, okay. Yeah, I don't think that is a proper usage of the sanctuary. Would you agree with me on that side, Kel, on any rubrics?

[A]

I know that.

[B]

No, I mean. Oh, my gosh. You know, that sounds like a story you hear from the 60s, 70s, maybe into the early 80s, but no, the sanctuary is a sacred place and should be treated as such. Did anybody complain about this? No.

[C]

And, yeah, that's also why sometimes I feel like I'm the only one noticing. So it's good to have insight like this.

[B]

Yeah, this is not a tough one. Really? Yeah. Because churches in general, I guess I shouldn't joke because it is a serious matter, but churches in general, because it's the place where, in a very special way, God meets man in the greatest miracle in the universe called transubstantiation. As you know, Madison, when Father says, this is my body, this is my blood, this is the chalice of my blood. Wow. The greatest miracle in the universe occurs and salvation comes to us. And so we are to treat the churches. I have seven kids, and you can ask my kids on this one, because I get pretty fiery with my kids, and people notice that. Not the fiery part, but they notice. I've had numerous people come up to me Si. After Mass and say, my gosh, you've got little ones. And they are so well behaved. Little do they know of the reason why, the threats, the threat to life and life and the corporal punishment that went into that. Not that I don't beat the kids or anything. Don't call the police on me. But, yeah, I definitely believe, and my kids know that this is a holy and sacred place. And so if you're a boy, my sons, you take your hat off. No, you don't wear the hat in here. And you stop with the talking. And if you do, it better be for something really important and that sort of thing. But driving a tractor. Yeah, that's definitely out. I will tell you this Madison. I had a pre spiritual director who told me the story of one of those early 70s crazy things where that happened during mass where some church that must have had very large front doors. I kellett to the church. It was Palm Sunday and so Father drove up in a Volkswagen, drove up the aisle in a Volkswagen and his rationale was, well, Jesus came up on a donkey. So if he were alive today, how.

[A]

Can you argue with that? How can you argue with that?

[B]

He would be on a donkey, right? He wouldn't be on some big horse or something. He would be as the mild meek riding in on a donkey. Just like I'm riding mild meek in a Volkswagen.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Right. So it's amazing, Madison, how people will justify absolute insanity in the kookiest of ways. But I think the basic principle that's involved here is we need to teach folks to treat the sanctuary for what it is.

[A]

Madison, I'd like to send you a copy of Tim's book Behold, you'd A Biblical and Historical Defense of the Marian Doctrines. All you have to do is hang on, give us an address and we will send it off to you. Got to take a quick break. Right back with more Ask Me Anything with Tim Staples on Catholic Answers Live. Catch Catholic Answers live [e-mail] Are you looking to study Catholic theology in a formal way with the guidance of faithful scholarship? Underwriting for Catholic Answers Live is provided by the Augustan Institute, offering master's degrees in theology, pastoral theology, and Catholic education with flexible study options on campus, online, or both. The Augustine Institute equips students to serve Christ and his church in schools, parishes.

[B]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Welcome back to CATHOLIC Answers Live. Tim Staples is our guest. Start the second hour. We'll reveal our poll. What name would you choose if they chose you to be pope? You can do that on our app. You can answer there, or you can go to YouTube and just put your answer in the comments section for this show on YouTube. Just search for Catholic Answers live on YouTube and you'll come to it. The number here, 888318. Let's go to Bill in Raeford, North Carolina. Bill, welcome. Go ahead with your question for Tim.

[C]

Yes. Thank you for taking my call. So when waiting in line to pick up my daughter from her Catholic school, I've seen two variations of a bumper sticker. One is an M with just a horizontal line running through it, and then the other one is an M with a cross in it. So I'd like to know, like, of course that's Jesus, but I'd like to know what the meaning of the first bumper sticker is with just the M with the single horizontal line, if there's a difference at all.

[A]

Huh.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

I'm having trouble picturing it.

[B]

Yeah. So. And obviously it's horizontal line through an M. It's something, Marion. But I can't.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I can't think of anything, Marian, that has an M with a line through it. Is it possible it's something secular?

[C]

It. It might be. I've seen. I've seen the same thing with, with a cross. So I was just.

[B]

I didn't know if there was meaning.

[C]

To it or not.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

But it's just the line is all you're seeing. Like, it doesn't have the cross over it because that's, I think, the miraculous metal.

[B]

Right.

[C]

There's other bumper stickers that are that. I believe it. It's like a rosary, like, right next to it. So I'm. I believe it's. It. It should be something.

[A]

Have you ever heard of the miraculous metal? Have you ever heard of it?

[C]

I have.

[A]

Yes. So take a look at that. And does that look like what you're.

[B]

Talking about with the cross in front of it?

[C]

Let me take a look here real quick.

[A]

Yeah. Because it kind of sounds like. But I'm having a hard time picturing what you're describing. I'm not good at picturing stuff anyways, though.

[C]

Yeah. So it's the M, and it's like the base of the Cross is that horizontal line, but one of the ones I've seen. There's no cross on it.

[B]

Well, yeah, it's the Marian cross is what immediately pops up. I usually don't do this. Si. I'm actually on my computer here trying.

[A]

To get an image to look at.

[B]

Get an image here. But, you know, everything's coming up. The Marian cross or Marian symbol, which is the stylized M often depicted with a cross.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But it does say here.

[C]

But still the line.

[B]

Yeah, the line. Well, I do have. I think we're just learning. I'm learning something new right here because according to this, that is the same thing. The M with a line through it is the same thing as the stylized M often depicted with a cross. So that's the Marian cross or simply a Marian symbol. I've just never seen it just with a line through it. So I think that's your answer. I think that's my answer.

[A]

That's the answer you're getting.

[B]

Whatever else, because honestly, I don't remember ever seeing one. I've seen lots of M's with crosses, but not an M with a line through it.

[A]

Catholic stuff is endless. Endless.

[B]

But thanks for asking the question, because now I know the answer.

[A]

Thanks, Bill. I'll tell you what. It was a Marian question, so I'll send you a Marian book. If you'd like. I'll send you a copy of Tim's behold your mother, a biblical and historical defense of the Marian doctrines, if you'd like it. All you have to do is hang on the line. Ryan in Midland, Texas, listening on the app, the Catholic answers live app. Welcome back, Ryan.

[C]

Thanks for taking my call. Guys, I can't participate in the poll. I'm not on my computer. But if I had to pick one, it would be Nicodemus.

[B]

Oh, Nicodemus.

[A]

All right, Ryan.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What do you think your chances are of getting elected?

[B]

That's right. I'm gonna see about making some calls and getting this guy elected.

[A]

How much influence do you have on that, Tim?

[B]

I don't.

[A]

You really got a lot of poll.

[B]

I just don't have that kind of money. Now, that's a joke, folks. That is a joke.

[A]

This is not the Italian Renaissance. You can't just buy it anymore.

[B]

Ryan, A little simony here. Simony here.

[A]

All right, Ryan, what's your. Excuse me, Nicodemus, what's your question?

[C]

Well, I want to know, Tim, if you could kind of give me a brief history of how the church elected popes from the earliest centuries to the development of the Current conclave. Because I've been asked about this quite a bit recently, and I'm always dumbfounded about how to answer it because it's not something I'm asked a whole lot.

[A]

Sure. Very cool.

[B]

Yeah. It always comes up, you know, around the time of a conclave. Well, basically from the earliest days, it was simply the people, the Roman clergy, and the people of Rome elected their bishop. And so it would be the Roman clergy, of course, and the people very early on would have a say as well. But ultimately it would be the Roman clergyman and such. And as time went on, you would have multiple bishops involved as well. As the Church in Rome grew, you would have more than one bishop there as well. So in order, obviously, in order to ordain a bishop, you have to have a bishop even from day one. But just a thumbnail sketch here. It was a combination of the Roman clergy, the people, but you would also have, because of the role of the Church of Rome, you would have influential bishops, patriarchs, even from other areas that would be involved as well because of the importance of the election of the bishop of Rome. But it was from the very earliest days, very much a local event, even though it had universal implications. And that would basically continue. But with the advent of Christendom, once Constantine comes on the scene and the Church grows, of course, through the tribulation of the first 300 years, the church grew enormously, and the Church of Rome, being the central church, grew enormously. And like I said, you had multiple bishops involved in administrating the diocese because it was so large and influential. And then once the emperor comes on board, you had the perennial problem of emperors interfering with elections. And that would be the spearhead. That would sort of. You know, I'm just thinking about this cycle. This is not unlike how all doctrine develops in the Church. You know, in the early first century, first 200 years, you didn't have trinitarian theology per se. Even the term Trinity would first be used by Saint Theophilus of Antioch. Remember, we looked that one up a few weeks ago, because I couldn't remember. Saint Theophilus of Antioch in 181 AD was the first, at least on record of writing the term Trinity. Even though the fact that the Father's God, the Son's God, the Holy Spirit's God, is clearly taught in St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeus is really good in St. Irenaeus and such. But it would be the divisions that come in and the heresies that would kind of move the Church to clarify. And then, of course, exercising the authority of the magisterium would bring about the clarified doctrine of the Trinity that all Christians believe today. Well, similarly here, when it comes to papal elections, what started on that local level, with some influence from outside, as I said, became much more of that, because once the emperors and then the kings, Christian kings got involved and were sometimes trying to usurp authority, there was a battle going back and forth, and that's what would lead to the development of the electors that we know as cardinals. And the creation of the College of Cardinals didn't happen until 1059, but it wasn't like the creation happened immediately right there. There was already a movement in the Church of certain men who were close to the Holy Father that had authority. These guys were the ones. And of course, the patriarchs and the bishops of what we would call large metropolitans today who had influence. And really, the College of Cardinals really flew, just kind of flew, grew out of necessity. And so when the College of Cardinals was created in 1059 by a papal bull, this really clarified things for the world that the pope would elect, and the pope alone could elect cardinals and establish the rules. Now, it had already all the way back to the Book of Acts. In Acts chapter one, of course, by divine authority, it was Peter who had the authority, for example, and Peter alone, to determine how Matthias would be chosen as the successor or replacement for Judas. If you notice, in Acts Chapter one, it was Peter who laid out the rules. He quotes Psalm 69 and Psalm 109 lays out those texts that say, hey, this was prophesied to happen. Judas is no longer. He established the rules, how the election would happen. And it happened. And they chose Matthias by lot. The pope made the rules. And back then, it was by lot, which kind of seems weird. You're going to roll the dice. Well, that was the belief back then. Of course, it was done in the Old Testament. The idea was you give it into the hands of God and God moves those lots. But over time, it would be the bishops of Rome who would continue to make the rules. But generally speaking, again, it was done the way that bishops were elected all around the world. But once you had the creation of the cardinals, there would be developments over the centuries. In the 13th century is when you really had the development concerning the conclave, conclave being a Latin term, which means with key, where these cardinals would be, you know, age, rules, and all of that would really start to be developed, much like we have it Today in the 13th century and down the centuries, it would go. But a key point is only the popes have the authority to change those rules, as Pope St. John Paul the Great did not too many years ago.

[A]

Ryan, thank you. Right back with more Ask Me Anything with Tim Staples on Catholic Answers Live. We hope that one of the things that we communicate here at Catholic Answers Live is that our Catholic faith allows us to be fully serious about all the problems we encounter in the church and in the world. But it also lets us have light hearts and maybe even mix in a bit of fun. And that is exactly what our good friend Joe Heschmeyer does in his popular podcast Shameless Potpourri. You should check it [e-mail] Joe's got a deep grasp of the faith, morals, the teachings of the Church, all that, but he's also got a witty conversational style. He entertains and he informs, but you will leave equipped to better answer the most common challenges, misconceptions and questions about the Catholic faith. He's got insightful guests he does on air debates, and he takes a close look into all the things that you want to know about as a as a Catholic living today, you'll walk away knowledgeable and filled with joy. Look for Joe on his YouTube channel. Check him [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you hear, become a patron. Deepen your connection to the Church's holy days and seasons while you draw on the wisdom of the Church Fathers. Feasts of Our Fathers, the new book from Mike Aquilina and Adam Lucas, is a treasury of history, prayers, insights and lessons that will bring you closer to the earliest of Catholic traditions. Take your prayer life and your solidarity with the Church, past and present, to a new level. Order your copy of Feasts of Our fathers [e-mail] when the resurrected Jesus appeared to disciples on the road to Emmaus, they didn't recognize him until the breaking of the bread. The same is true today in the Holy Eucharist we really meet Jesus in the Eucharist is really Jesus. Author Joe Heschmeyer explains how knowing Jesus in the Eucharist is the key to understanding all of Christian faith. Order your copy of the Eucharist is Really Jesus [e-mail] or get it at a good Catholic bookstore. Welcome back to Catholic Answers Live. All the lines full. Lots of folks to talk to. It's Ask me anything. Tim Staples here with us. There's a poll. If you want to take it. You can go to our app and take it There. Or you can go to our YouTube page and the stream the comment section for this, for this hour, just put in the name that you would choose if you were, if you chose to be Pope. Go ahead and put it there and then we'll tally them up and we'll see what the popular names are. I mean, it's interesting some of the names, I was just looking some interesting names that people came up with. I've never personally understood the name Sixtus, especially like Sixtus iv. That's a very odd name. Maybe Tim can explain that to me later. John's in Oklahoma. Yeah, that's right. That's where I'm going. John, go ahead with your question for Tim.

[C]

Okay, well, before I get to the question, you know what? If Cardinal Pizza Bella gets it, picks the name of John, then we can call him Papa John Pizzabella.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

Yes, that's right. But if they, if it takes more than 30 minutes to choose him, you get two for the price of one.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

You guys are crazy. I love that name though. Pizza Bell.

[A]

Pizza Bell.

[B]

Pizza Bell. Yes.

[C]

First off, Tim, I gotta say, your book, Behold your Mother is just. It should be required reading for every Catholic.

[B]

I really like that idea.

[A]

I think that's. Could we get the new Pope to declare that?

[B]

Yes, we will.

[A]

That would help sales.

[B]

I appreciate that, brother.

[C]

Well, here's my question. You know, I've been seeing on the Internet a lot and, and I've looked it up, you know, Googled it and stuff. And in the Talmud, yeah, and I don't remember the exact chapters or whatever, but it says that Jesus Christ is burning in hell for his sins against God in flaming excrement. And I didn't know if you could elaborate on that more.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Got to be an explanation.

[B]

Well, yeah, there is. In as much as if you look in the Gospels, Jesus wasn't treated too nicely either, you know, and so that's not really surprising. Now as I recall, it's been a while since I looked at that. I don't know if it's that direct because I know it's an episode where in the Talmud it's talking about punishments for various notorious sins and such, and then Christ is mentioned. So I don't disagree with you on that point. But yeah, and there's bad things said about the Blessed Mother as well, that she was, I'll just say a sinner. I can't bring myself to say what it says. But understand that for the Jews Jesus was a false prophet and they did not have nice things to say about false prophets, and neither does the Old Testament. So what I do is I stay off of that kind of stuff because it's especially a shock to the modern ear when you say that. And it tends to really not help a conversation because you end up getting the ire up of people. And you know what happens when folks get angry. Pride wells up, anger wells up, and the intellectual capacity diminishes, and the conversation really doesn't go anywhere. And so I like to stay off of that sort of thing and just acknowledge, hey, the Jews believe Jesus was a false prophet. And hey, we acknowledge that. And then, hey, let's take a look at some of the reasons I recommend to folks to read St. Justin Martyrs masterpiece. I wish someone would do kind of a revamp of his defense basically of Christianity against the Jews. And he's basically responding to a Jew in the year 150 A.D. in an apologetic fashion. And it's really quite good. He goes to the Old Testament, tackles the most controverted texts, you know, Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53, Isaiah 52, Wisdom, Chapter 2, and all of those texts that point so incredibly to Jesus Christ. And man, if you can get somebody focused on that and away from the more controversial stuff that makes people angry, I think you'd go a lot further toward actually helping someone to see the truth about Jesus. But it's not like we run from the fact that, hey, the Jews were screaming, crucify him. Crucify him. And guess what? Every Easter, we're reminded every Lent, and every Easter we're reminded that that wasn't just those Jewish folks in the first century, that was you and I. We were the ones shouting, crucify him. Because it was our sins. It was their sins as well, but it was our sins, and in a sense, ours more pointedly so, because to whom much is given, much is required. I think that's something we should point outside that the folks that were screaming, crucify him, crucify him in the first century would not have had the. The culpability that you and I do. Would they be culpable? Well, God will deal with each individual that's shouting out those terms. And some will have more culpability, some will have mitigating factors. Thanks be to God. We're not the judge. He is. But I worry about me, Cylinder. I worry about me because I know I have been given a tremendous amount of grace, and I want to beg God to help me to be faithful unto death, to be faithful to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to my Death so that I may attain to eternal life as Revelation, chapter 2, verse 10 says. Does that make sense?

[C]

Yeah, it does. What's the difference between the Talmud and the Torah, though? Is there any.

[B]

Oh, sure, yeah. Well, the Talmud is basically the ancient rabbis commenting on the Torah. The Torah is the word of God, that is the first five books of the word of God that at the time of Christ, all Jews agreed upon, even the Sadducees, who didn't believe in much, didn't believe in angels, didn't believe in spirits. They believed in the first five books of the law, the Torah, which had a place of ascendancy and still does among Orthodox Jews, like the Gospels do for we Catholics, the Gospels have a place of ascendancy in the church. Even though all 27 books of the New Testament are equally inspired by God, we place a special place of preeminence on the Gospels. Well, among the old covenant people of God, the Torah had that place. It was seen as written by the hand of Moses. Right. And even we today acknowledge that Moses had a hand in writing the Torah, even though, you know, generally we acknowledge that it was written and redacted over a period of roughly a thousand years into its final form, we still place Moses at the helm of the five books of the Torah today. So these are commentaries by the ancient rabbis, and they're fascinating. In fact, I have an entire set of the Babylonian Talmud in my office, and I refer to it often because it gives you great insight into the understanding of the Jews, generally speaking, the Jewish people in the fourth, fifth centuries. And that's extremely important because you'll see often things vindicated from the Gospels in the Talmuds. Talking about Mary, for example, being a sinful woman. Again, I don't want to say it. Being a sinful woman and such. I mean, you see that right in, what is it, John, chapter eight, where the Jews, when they're basically sticking the knife in Jesus, they say, we were not born of fornication. Right. Who are you to be looking down on us? We were not born of fornication. When they say that, that's a reflection of the rumors that were floating around and being communicated at that time. Because her pregnancy was a little bit suspect there, pal. Yeah. In fact. Right. And there you have it. And there was a myth, of course, that she. It was a Roman soldier and all sorts of things. I'll get off of that. I'm a little uncomfortable talking about. Isn't that weird? I can't talk about the blessed Mother like that. It turns my stomach. But at any rate, you know, you have that sort of stuff in the Talmud that, you know, goes all the way back to the time of Christ. And it kind of that's why it's an important text because it vindicates a lot of what we see in the Gospels. And it also vindicates, you know, the existence of Jesus, which is very important because there are a lot of folks, not a lot, but there's a minority of scholars even today who attempt to say Jesus didn't exist. Well, the Jews sure don't agree with that in both the Mishnah and the Talmud. So just remember these are commentaries by the rabbis in the 4th, 5th, 6th centuries that are held in very, very high esteem among Orthodox Jews.

[A]

John, I'm going to leave it there. Time for me to take a break. Right back with more ASK ME Anything with Tim Staples on CATHOLIC ANSWERS live. This is Archbishop Paul Coakley of the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City, and you're listening to Catholic ANSWERS live. Who was the first Catholic in your family? Were they evangelized by a friend, a co worker, a stranger? Did you ever think that you could be that person that God uses to save a soul and that soul could save their family, their grandchildren and generations to come? At St. Paul Street Evangelization, a Catholic nonprofit, we train, equip and mobilize Catholic disciples to do the urgent work of evangelization. Catholic Answers is supported in part by St. Paul Street Evangelization. Streetevangelization.com this is Jim Pinto, director of EWTN Media Missionaries.

[B]

EWTN's mission is to spread the eternal word and to teach others that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. You can help EWTN share the good news by becoming a Media Missionary. Visit EWTN missionaries.com today and join us in sharing the eternal word with the world.

[A]

Tim Staples, our guest this hour. And next on CATHOLIC Answers Live. If you've got a question about the Catholic faith, whether you are Catholic or not, we would love to take that call and have that conversation. 888-318-7884 is the number 883-18-7884. The lines have stayed quite full, so I'm going to continue on. Cecilia is in Security Colorado watching on YouTube. Hello, Cecilia.

[C]

Hello, guys. Good to talk to you again.

[A]

You too. I remember I had to say Security Colorado was what gives it away? I think you're our only caller from Security Colorado.

[C]

I probably am. I don't know. But anyway, first of all, I want to say that Melchizedek would be a really cool papal name.

[B]

Melchizedek.

[A]

Yes. And you'd probably. Yeah, that's right. Because he's already a priest forever. After the manner of. Wait, is that right? After the manner of Melchizedek or.

[B]

Yeah, after the order of Melchizedek.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

But anyway, guys, my question is. In John 11, we read that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Then in John 12, there was a plot to put Lazarus to death. Was this plot ever carried out?

[B]

I. Where do you find that plot to put Lazarus to death?

[C]

In John 12, it is John 12, verse 9.

[B]

Verse 9. When the great crowd of the Jews learned that he was there, they came not only account of Jesus, but also to see Lazarus whom he had raised from the dead. Oh, I see. So the chief priests planned to put Lazarus to death because on account of him, many of the Jews were going away and believing in Jesus. Right. No, there is no reference to him ever having been put to death. So not that. Well, I would say this. If it would have happened, I think we would know about it.

[A]

Yeah. Although he's probably not still alive, though. Like, he did die.

[B]

That's right, he did die. But if there was a successful carrying out of that, certainly we would know about it.

[A]

All right, Cecilia.

[C]

Okay. All right, very good. Thank you, guys.

[B]

All right.

[A]

You're welcome. Do they have a blanket factory in your town?

[C]

No, security blankets.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Thank you, Cecilia.

[C]

Thank you, guys.

[B]

All right, bye. Yes. God bless you. You know, Sy, that's one of those texts. I did not remember that. So the chief priest planned to put Lazarus also to death. That's the one that.

[A]

It's so easy to go right past that. Yeah. All right, let's go to Tim. 2nd Timothy in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, watching on YouTube. Hello, Tim. You got a question for Tim?

[C]

Morning, guys. Or good afternoon. Yeah, so I. I went to an event at a Catholic school that was billed as an interfaith event. And part of it involved the blessing of various items.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Two of those being a kinara and a Buddha. Is that. Is it appropriate to do something like that? I do have the text of the blessing, if that would help.

[B]

Right. Well, I tell you, Tim, you have to be very careful in these situations. You know, immediately Pachamama comes to mind. You know, where there you had a symbol of the indigenous peoples in the Amazon that had been basically baptized and used as a Christian symbol for, you know, we don't even know how long, as much as 500 years, but certainly for a couple of hundred years and that was a symbol of life and fertility and even a symbol of the Blessed Mother and femininity in general. And so something like that is legitimate. We. We baptize all sorts of symbols and have over the centuries, and incorporated them into our Catholic faith. I mean, right from the very beginning, John the apostle in John chapter one, in the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. Right. Jesus never called himself the Word. But what is John doing? He's using a term, very, very popular term, Logos, which is used in Stoic philosophy as a symbol of the ultimate substratum out of which all things come toward which all things go. It's a perfect term to baptize and use in our Catholic Christian faith. Now, to the Stoics, of course, that Logos is an impersonal force, kind of like the Star wars, closer to the Star wars force than to God. And so using the Logos for Christ here, let me introduce you to the true Logos, the true substratum. Yes, in that sense, from which we all come, toward which we are all moving, but we are created. We don't emanate, as the Stoics taught, from all eternity from the Logos in a mindless sort of emanation. Rather, we are created. So at any rate, those sorts of things are legitimate. But in the case of baptizing this symbol of the Buddha man, that's all kind of problematic because I know of no example where an image of the Buddha has been Christianized, baptized, and that sort of thing. This is something that happens. This is something that happens, organic, usually over time, you know, decades, if not centuries and such. So, I mean, this seems to me to be something that is imprudent, to say the least, because you're talking about a Buddha. This is an image used clearly by our friends who are Buddhists and such. And I don't think a devout Buddhist would like us sort of blessing this Buddha in a Christian context. So you got to think of that as well, as well as saying, this is just out of place. That's something where I think the local bishop should get involved, take a look at and say, no, this is inappropriate. Because when you're talking about blessing an object, when you bless an object or a person, this person or object is being set apart for godly use, for godly purpose. Right. Whether it's the individual being blessed, he's being ordered to live his life for Christ, a closer walk with Jesus, or if it's an object, then this object is being blessed to be set apart for Christian service. Christian Use. And you really can't do that with a Buddha. So that would seem to me to be contrary to the nature of blessing itself. Does that make sense, brother?

[C]

It absolutely does. The whole thing kind of felt off and even the text of it was a little jarring.

[B]

Yeah. So I would send that over to the local bishop and I would love to hear what he or if he has anything to say about that. I would love to hear about it.

[C]

Okay, I'll have to report back someday.

[A]

All right, report back in. Thank you. All right, let's see where we're going. We're going to Fred in Melissa, Texas. Hello, Fred, you got a question for Tim?

[C]

Yes, I do.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Are you familiar with reading the scriptures with the documentary hypothesis?

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[C]

Okay. Okay. There in the, in the beginning, when they're talking about the E. Source in the north. Yeah, they, he, they. Their supreme being is called God. There is a time when I couldn't find it a while ago, I was looking for it. But there's a time that says for the first time they call God by their. By the. By the name Yahweh.

[B]

Correct.

[C]

And that's. It's in Exodus, right? I think it's in Exodus and from then on they call, they refer to the Supreme Being as God, Wave as.

[B]

Yahweh, as God, as Yahweh.

[C]

Does that ring a bell, Richard?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Fred. But just a matter of clarification. That doesn't mean that no one could ever refer to God with any other name from that time forward. And I think that's kind of the misnomer you get, especially with Jehovah's Witnesses. I've dealt with them many times with this, you know, their use.

[A]

It could.

[B]

I'm not disagreeing with you in what the text says, but it's a misnomer to say that from that time forward, that's the only name that was used because obviously names like El, right. El by itself or El Shaddai, the God Almighty, and so many other names even juxtaposed to Yahweh, you have Yahweh. To Sitkanu, you have Yahweh. Rapha, you have Yahweh. There are lot. I wrote an article on this years ago and I went down through all the different names that are used throughout Revelation. And though, you know, Yahweh would be discontinued manuscript wise when the Jewish people developed a sense of awe such of the name of God that they didn't want to even write it any longer. And you see, in the ancient in some of the oldest Hebrew manuscripts, we have at places where Yahweh's name is left blank or it's replaced with Elohim or Adonai, which are other names for God. But it was out of a reverence for the ancient name because they did not know how to pronounce the ancient name. They had lost it over the centuries. And even to this day, we do not know how Yahweh's name was originally pronounced because, as you know, the Hebrew language, the ancient Hebrew language only had consonants. And so what we transliterate as Y, H, W, H. It could have originally been Yahweh or Yahweh, but it could also be Yahoveh, right? That's where Jehovah comes from. Down through the German, because there is no J in Hebrew. Down through the German. That's where Jehovah comes from. Certainly Jehovah is not what God's name was pronounced because there was no J. Most scholars outside the Jehovah's Witnesses acknowledge that it's a Y sound. But it could be Yahoo. It could be Yahiwi. You know, it could be. Or it could be Yahweh, it could be Yiwe. It could be all sorts of different. All sorts of different vowels, because we don't know what vowels were placed there. And that's part of the reason why you have Elohim so often in the ancient manuscripts, but you still. Even in the manuscripts that we have, the most ancient manuscripts we have today in Hebrew, you do have Yahweh. It continued especially in the Psalms. My gosh, Yahweh is everywhere. I was just looking yesterday at Psalm 102 in the Hebrew and eight times in Psalm 102, which comes along much, much later. We're talking a thousand years. And Psalm 102 has Yahweh written eight times there for God. Well, anyway, I could get into that, but the point is, don't go down. I'm saying, don't go down that road of thinking that this is the only name of God. No, it's from this time. This is when this name is revealed and the people of God began to call upon his name. But that does not mean there's not lots of names for God. And that becomes important because when you see these different names revealed, each one of the names of God reveal different aspects of his character. Like I mentioned, Yahweh, Tsitkanu, God our righteousness, he is the just one, right? Or Tzitkidu, that is Yahweh. Tzitkedu, God our let's see, Sitkidu. I forget what that means, but Yahweh Rapha is God our healer. No, Sitkanu, that is righteousness. God our righteousness and so forth. And the other names like Adonai and El and El Shaddai and all those different, they all have an important role in the revelation of who God is. Does that help at all, Fred?

[C]

Yeah, I haven't got to the question yet.

[B]

Okay, wait.

[A]

I'll tell you what, though, Fred, can you hang on a couple minutes? Because we got to do this break. I don't have any choice about it. So if you can hang on a couple minutes, we'll get to the question right at the top of the hour.

[C]

I can do that.

[A]

Okay. Thank you. Okay, we got the poll answered. To get to we asked our listeners during the first hour to tell us what would your papal name be if you were chosen pope? And we've got so many answers in and we're tallying them up, but we'll let the. We'll get to the question first. I don't see how we can make Fred Wade anymore, so we'll take a very quick break. We'll come back, we'll answer Fred's question and then poll results. What would your papal name be?

[B]

Right here.

[A]

And also we'll continue with Ask Me Anything with Tim Staples on Catholic Answers Live.