#12455 Why Does It Take So Long To Become Catholic? Free Will and LGBT Issues - Joe Heschmeyer

Summary

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Catholic Answers Live – Episode #12455

Theme: Why Does It Take So Long To Become Catholic? Free Will and LGBT Issues
Host: Cy Kellett
Guest: Joe Heschmeyer
Date: November 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Catholic Answers Live, Cy Kellett invites non-Catholic listeners to share their reasons for not being Catholic, providing a platform for genuine dialogue, honest questions, and pastoral responses. Catholic apologist and author Joe Heschmeyer addresses a wide range of live call-in questions, from practical barriers to entering the Church and navigating Church teaching on controversial issues (such as LGBT topics and free will), to common misunderstandings about Catholic doctrine and practice. The conversation is lively, informative, and sprinkled with humor, making complex theological and pastoral topics approachable for all listeners.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Meaning and Use of Anti-Catholic Slurs (00:31–05:43)

• Opening Banter: The hosts discuss historical anti-Catholic terms like "Papist," "Romanist," "mackerel snapper," and "left footer," noting how terms originally meant as insults can be ironically reclaimed (e.g., "Yankee").

• Notable Quote:

  "I'm a big believer in the ironic appropriation of language." – Joe Heschmeyer (01:50)

• Takeaway: There's a lighthearted but important underlying point: prejudices still exist against Catholics worldwide, and though joking about insults might be tempting in safe settings, real suffering endures for Catholics elsewhere.

2. Barriers to Becoming Catholic – OCIA Process and Practical Issues (05:44–11:00)

• Caller: Bobby from Oklahoma – Struggling to complete the OCIA (Order of Christian Initiation for Adults) process due to a demanding work schedule.

• Joe’s Pastoral Response:

  • OCIA is not an absolute divine necessity—priests can and do make accommodations for those with scheduling conflicts.
  • The important thing is demonstrating a sincere desire to learn about and join the faith.
  • Switching parishes or doing OCIA at one parish but attending Mass elsewhere is normal and acceptable.

• Notable Quote:

  "It's one family, it's one church and it doesn't matter which door you're walking in... It's the same church." – Joe Heschmeyer (09:24)

• Resource Offered: Why We’re Catholic by Trent Horn (10:02)

3. Catholic Teaching on LGBT Issues and Church Consistency (14:34–19:21)

• Caller: Michael from Buffalo – Asked about news that a man married to another man was baptized and made a godparent, sparking confusion among OCIA students.
• Joe’s Nuanced Explanation:
  • Something was done incorrectly; Church teaching did not change.
  • A sponsor or godparent should model the faith; living in contradiction to Church moral teachings precludes serving in these roles.
  • Such cases are pastoral errors, not changes in doctrine.
• Notable Quote:

  "If you're serious about the Christian life... you have to actually do that. You can't just choose to follow in the places where it's comfortable or convenient. But you do have to make a decisive break from sin." – Joe Heschmeyer (16:37)

4. Catechesis vs. Evangelization – Defining Catholic Terms (20:29–23:01)

• Caller: Mark from Georgia – Formerly Catholic, now Baptist, asks about the meaning of "catechist."
• Explanation:
  • Evangelization invites people into initial faith.
  • Catechesis is a deeper, structured teaching about the faith.
  • The catechist instructs and forms believers in doctrine and Christian practice.
• Notable Moment:

  "The evangelist... gets them in the door. And then the catechist... does the... process of fully educating someone... in the teaching of the Church." – Cy Kellett (21:42)

5. Numbering of the Ten Commandments – Why Variation Exists (23:07–33:51)

• Caller: Mark from Georgia (cont.) – Why do Catholic and Protestant versions number the Ten Commandments differently?
• Joe’s Explanation:
  • The Commandments appear in slightly varied form in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 and aren’t numbered in the original text.
  • Numbering is a matter of tradition and grouping, not substantive change—Catholics and Protestants affirm the same content.
  • Catholics separate coveting neighbor’s wife (lust) and property (greed) as distinct commandments, and fold the “graven images” command under the broader first commandment on idolatry.
• Notable Quote:

  "We have the same content, but we number it differently because... it’s not numbered within the Bible. And everyone has to figure out where to put the bullet points." – Joe Heschmeyer (25:08)

6. Catholic Statues & Praying to Saints – Is It Idolatry? (33:51–37:16)

• Caller: Mark from Georgia (cont.) – How to answer the charge that praying to saints/statues is idolatry.
• Joe’s Clarification:
  • Prayer in Catholic tradition is not synonymous with worship; prayer is simply communication or request, whereas worship (proper only to God) involves sacrificial offering.
  • Asking saints for intercession is simply asking fellow Christians in heaven for prayers, just as we ask each other on earth.
  • Biblical/statue context: God commands carved images (e.g., cherubim) in the Old Testament as long as they aren’t worshipped as idols.
• Notable Quote:

  "If we ask the saints to ask for things for us, that's not worship. That is prayer... but it's not worship." – Joe Heschmeyer (34:19)

7. Free Will and Divine Foreknowledge – Is the Universe Deterministic? (37:59–43:46)

• Caller: Steven from Minnesota (on behalf of his atheist brother) – If God knows the future, is free will an illusion?
• Joe’s Response:
  • Knowledge of future actions does not cause or determine those actions.
  • Analogy: Knowing the outcome of a recorded game doesn’t mean the players lacked free will when playing.
  • God’s knowledge is outside of time; He sees all at once, but humans act freely within time.
• Notable Example:

  "If you’re on a mountain and see two cars about to crash... your knowledge isn’t forcing that to happen. They could move out of the way, but you know from watching that they’re not going to. That’s foreknowledge, but it’s not a deterministic sort of foreknowledge." – Joe Heschmeyer (43:16)

8. The Papacy: Historical and Theological Challenges (45:51–54:29)

• Caller: Benjamin from Peoria, IL – Critical of papal authority citing historical issues (multiple popes, Avignon Papacy).
• Joe’s Defense:
  • Jesus established a hierarchical, top-down leadership with Peter as the visible head (the “rock”).
  • Church Fathers attest to succession from Peter to subsequent bishops of Rome.
  • There have been schisms and anti-popes, but this doesn’t invalidate the papacy anymore than counterfeits invalidate the concept of money.
  • Resource: Joe’s book, Pope Peter.
• Notable Quote:

  "You can have counterfeit money and it doesn't mean money's not real. You can have two different people who claim they’re married to the same woman, and it doesn't mean she doesn't have a husband." – Joe Heschmeyer (53:10)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On “Papist” and language reclamation:

  "Those are big clues to any Catholic listening, like, oh, this is not a person to be taken seriously. Like, this person wants to do more like name calling than to rationally and charitably search for the truth." – Joe (01:50)

• On entering the Church despite obstacles:

  "OCIA isn’t a matter of divine necessity... do what you can... communicate that with the priest... they can often work with you." – Joe (07:00)

• On why Church teachings on sexuality matter at baptism:

  "If you’re serious about the Christian life... you have to make a decisive break from sin." – Joe (16:37)

• On statues/idols:

  "It is a prohibition against idolatry... the first commandment is about not having other gods, and an idol is having another god." – Joe (33:58)

• On foreknowledge & free will:

  "God’s knowledge isn’t forcing [something] to happen... it’s not a deterministic sort of foreknowledge." – Joe (43:16)

• On the troubled history of the papacy:

  "It was a bad moment in terms of the legacy of the Church, but there was always a Pope throughout." – Joe (54:18)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:31–05:43: Banter on anti-Catholic slurs and irony in language
• 05:44–11:00: Barriers to becoming Catholic – OCIA and parish issues
• 14:34–19:21: Complicated pastoral cases and LGBT issues in the Church
• 20:29–23:01: Definitions and differences between evangelization and catechesis
• 23:07–33:51: Numbering the Ten Commandments and responding to accusations of idolatry
• 37:59–43:46: Free will vs. divine foreknowledge – philosophical argument
• 45:51–54:29: Papal authority, Church history, and the problem of anti-popes

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Tone & Style

The episode maintains a welcoming, neighborly, and sometimes irreverently witty attitude—balancing sincere, orthodox Catholic answers with empathy for the lived experiences and objections of non-Catholics. Both hosts field even hard or uncomfortable questions graciously, making a case for both truth and charity in Catholic evangelization.

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Summary

Listeners gain not just theological clarity on central Catholic claims (apostolic succession, Church teaching on sexuality, the meaning of liturgical rites) but also practical advice for navigating faith journeys complicated by personal circumstances, cultural history, and common objections. The dialogue encourages respectful engagement and a deeper understanding for all parties—Catholic or not.

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For those interested in resources mentioned, books such as "Why We’re Catholic," "Pope Peter," and "The Saints Pray for Us" were offered, and listeners are encouraged to stay in touch or follow Joe Heschmeyer’s work at Shameless Popery.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello and welcome.

[A]

To CATHOLIC Answers Live. Cy Kellett, your host, Joe Heschmeyer, our guest if you're not a Catholic, start dialing now. If you're not a Catholic and you're willing to tell us why you're not Catholic, we just want to talk to you. Dial now. We want to get to you as quick as we can. 888-31-87884. Look, don't even think about it. Don't be like, I don't know, they don't really want to talk tonight yet. Pick up the phone and call if you're not a Catholic. And we're going to pick up the phone. This is what we're going to say, hey, why aren't you Catholic? And you could tell us 888-318-7884. That does mean that our Catholic listeners will have to hold off, which is sometimes difficult because Joe Heschmeyer, our guest, apologist, author, speaker, podcaster, are you familiar with the call? Actually, I am Catholic, but have you ever.

[B]

I have gotten a couple of those. It is true.

[A]

Yeah. So yeah, people give themselves permission to get in here. But if you're not a ca and you're willing to talk to us about it, we are Catholics. As a matter of fact, Joe is. He calls himself a papist. That's how Catholic he is. He is a shameless Papist. His podcast is shameless Popery. Again, the number 888-318-7884. Why are you appear risible to me when I say that you're a Papist? Why is that?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, cause the whole thing's a little bit tongue in cheek. Look, for non Catholics who maybe you don't understand this. Let me just give you a little clue. Maybe you're somebody who wants to disprove what you think are the errors, the contradictions of the Catholic Church. You out yourself in a few ways and I'm going to tell them to you. Maybe I shouldn't, maybe I should just let you continue to do this for, for our sake. But if you use terms like Roman Catholic and you really hit the Roman part, or if you say terms like Romanist or Papist, those are big clues, particularly the last two of those three, those are big clues to any Catholic listening, like, oh, this is not a person to be taken seriously. Like, this person wants to do more like name calling than to rationally and charitably search for the truth. And they're like trying to score points. And so just know what box you're putting yourself in if you use those in a kind of non ironic way. But I'm a big believer in the ironic appropriation of language. You know, the Americans really famously took a pejorative term against Americans and made it a term now associated with America itself. Do you know which term I mean? There. Si. Wait. Americans turn Yankee during the Revolutionary War.

[A]

Is it Yankee?

[B]

It is. It is Yankee. And the whole song Yankee Doodle Dandy was set to a British tune that was originally. The whole thing was making fun of Americans. And as the British are signing their surrender, the Americans are piping the tune ironically, very just like sarcastically. Oh, really?

[A]

Come on, man. You won the war. Why you gotta rub the salt in the wound? You won the war.

[B]

Yeah, they're not used to salt because their food is very bland.

[A]

Okay, I got it. 888-3186. The number 883-187884. We would like to talk with you if you are a non Catholic. If you're not a Catholic and you're willing to tell us why you're not Catholic, just dial that number. 888-318-7884. I like some of the anti Catholic terms. Did you know we were called mackerel snappers at one point?

[B]

You know how I found out we were called mackerel snappers? Oh, when I was a kid, there was a psa, like a public service announcement on tv, and it was a picture or a series of videos of like, different babies of all different races. And it said. And it had a running list of racial and ethnic and religious slurs. Oh, really? And it said, no one is born a bigot. And as a kid, I was like, I don't know.

[A]

Some of these, they're just basically teaching you slurs like, that's a terrible ad.

[B]

That's awful. Really bad. It'd be like if you. If you made a PSA that was like, don't use this formula to make meth. Just don't run the ad. Like, you're actively making this worse. Yeah.

[A]

If you're not a bigot, you weren't born a bigot. Here's a bunch of bigoted terms for you to try out. And mackerel snapper was on the list, huh?

[B]

Hope you're not tough enough to use this at School. Yeah. I mean, it was just like. And macro snapper. Even as a kid, I was like, isn't that mackerel of fish? What is that all about? But yeah, I guess it's presumably because we ate fish. Because we don't eat fish on Friday. Yeah.

[A]

No, because we do eat fish on Friday.

[B]

We don't eat. Excuse me. Yeah, we snap them.

[A]

One that I learned recently. An old one is a left footer or someone who kicks with his left foot.

[B]

I have heard this and I am baffled by that one.

[A]

The only reason I know it is.

[B]

Because.

[A]

The main guy on Downton Abbey called a Catholic left footer one time.

[B]

I think that's where I was exposed to it as well, actually.

[A]

All right, I'll look it up. I'm gonna let you talk to some non Catholics. All right, you ready to talk to some non Catholics?

[B]

Yeah, let's do it.

[A]

All right, let's start with Bobby in Oklahoma. Bobby, thanks for getting us started. Go ahead with your. Oh, no, I'm not going to say go ahead with your question. I'm going to say, why aren't you Catholic, Bobby?

[C]

Because I haven't went all the way through the whole OCIA class.

[A]

I gotcha. Okay. Are you in it now?

[C]

I'm in the process of doing that right now.

[A]

Praise God.

[C]

Yeah. I have a problem going on Sundays because that's my Monday. I go to work at the postal service and I've been there 39 years. And I hate to think that my OCIA going to classes and stuff might be a problem for me on a Sunday.

[B]

Oh, because it interferes with work or it conflicts with work?

[C]

Well, it may. I've looked at the schedule and there's quite about three Sundays and I'm supposed to be at the church, but I don't really. I mean, I try to sleep in the daytime.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I work evenings and it's kind of hard.

[B]

Yeah, I'd say a few things. Number one, do what you can, you know, but it's okay if there may be times where there's some legitimate conflict and just communicate that with the priest or whoever's in charge of ocia. And they can often kind of work with you. If you say, like, I'm really interested in this. I want to learn more about the faith. I want to become Catholic. I just, you know, scheduling wise, can't make every one of these meetings. They'll understand. You're not the first person to have a work conflict or a busy schedule or any of those things. That's something they should be pretty well equipped to handle, I think. And OCIA isn't a matter of divine necessity. I've known people who were able to just sit down with the priest one on one and when they made it very clear that they knew the faith well enough, they were approved to be confirmed. So OCA is very helpful. I really recommend it. It's, it's often very good. It's a good way to meet new people who can help you in your journey. But there might still be times where it's, it's not practical or maybe not practical every week for you? Yes.

[C]

I mean, I've been going every time, every chance that I supposed to be there and there's supposed to be a. This Saturday I'm off and there's going to be a retreat and I'm going to the class at 5. Well, I'm going to mass off 30 and then class at 6 and by 8 o' clock we, you know, we eat and then I. By 8 o' clock, I'm usually having to leave at that time if I'm not finished because I gotta go to work by nine.

[B]

Yeah, I would just say communicate that to them and I think they'll be understanding. It's, you know, you're making a real effort here. Go ahead.

[C]

I really want to make Stanley Rother my church that I go to.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Where Yolanda goes. And I mean, I feel kind of bad. I feel kind of bad that I'm not going to be becoming a church attender here at St. Andrews because. But I do go there, you know, I used to go there and park in the parking lot just to calm down, to go get my head straight before I go to my son's baby's mom's house. It was just like I had to.

[B]

Get that spiritual peace. Yeah, right. Well, look, it's. It's all one family. It's all one church. It, it's okay if you, I mean, I've, I've even known people who did OCIA at one parish because they had it on a different night of the week that worked better for their schedule or they went to OCA and one parish kids, that's where they were getting married. But then they ended up being parishioners at a different church or, you know, there have been plenty of those stories. So please don't worry about any of that stuff. It's, it's one family, it's one church and it doesn't matter which, which door you're walking in, which parish. It's the same church.

[A]

I'm going to say thank you for the call. I'd also love to send you why We're Catholic Trent Horne's book. If you already have that one, let Edgar know and we'll send you a different book. I'm very happy to get your call, Bobby. And as you go through ocia, if you'd like to stay in touch with us, it's that time of year, we like to kind of follow some folks who are doing it. So if you have updates or if you have questions as you go, please continue to call as you work your way towards full communion with the Catholic Church. I do want to mention that Bobby mentioned and I'll let you go, Bobby, so you can get that book if you want to give your address. But Bobby mentioned Stanley Rother, not the people of Oklahoma. The Catholic people of Oklahoma in particular are very proud and rightly proud that Blessed Stanley Rother is one of theirs. And if you don't know about him, maybe the next saint from the he's not a saint yet, right? He's Blessed Stanley Rother, I believe that is correct. But an extraordinary and beautiful priest and one all Americans should know more about. But I can tell you in Oklahoma, if you meet an Oklahoma Catholic, they know about Father Stanley Rother. All right, I have to take a quick break. I am going to get to. We got a whole bunch of folks online. Well, no, just three now. All right, just three people on the line. That means three lines open. If you are not a Catholic and you're willing to talk with us about it. 888-318-7884. Hang on. Catholic Answers Live will return in a moment. St. Carlo Acutis shared a dream in which Sister Lucia appeared to him, saying the First Saturday devotion could change the destiny of the world. The Blue army of Our lady of Fatima invites you to practice this Devotion. Join a First Saturday virtual pilgrimage beginning December 6th. Experience spiritual meditations while traveling virtually through Portugal and Spain to 12 sacred sites tied to the Fatima story. Track your journey with a passport and stamps. Visit bluearmy.com and select First Saturday Pilgrimage to learn more. Sponsored by Our Lady's Blue Army. Are you a coffee drinker? If so, you can now enjoy a coffee roasted to perfection by the Carmelite monks of Wyoming. Delicious Mystic Monk Coffee is roasted and prepared by monks in a hidden cloistered monastery and is available in over 25 varieties. All Mystic Monk Coffees are works of perfection and labors of love. For more information on how to purchase Mystic Monk Coffee, visit mysticmonkcoffee.com that's Mystic Monk coffee.

[B]

This is Father Lawrence Liu. Catholic radio is a precious gift because.

[C]

It places a Catholic voice in your homes, in your cars, wherever you might be. St. Dominic would pray as he walked.

[B]

And as he traveled throughout the length.

[C]

And breadth of Europe. Now, as we travel and wherever we go, Catholic radio can help us to keep our minds focused on the things of God.

[A]

The world needs ewtn Catholic radio now more than ever. Maybe it's because we put the left foot forward when we genuflect, but actually the Internet doesn't know. There's a lot of people who say they know, but nobody actually seems to know why. Catholics, particularly Irish Catholics, are sometimes called left footers. And I have to say, too, here in the United States, we kind of have the luxury of being insulated from some of the worst of anti Catholic bigotry. So we can wear it a little lightly here. But I don't want to make light of the fact that people really suffer terribly and die virtually every day somewhere in the world because of anti Catholic bigotry. So I don't mind if you call me. Did you say a Romanist? Is that one of the things you.

[B]

Use the term papist, but yeah, Romanist is another one.

[A]

Yeah. Or a left footer or a mackerel snapper or whatnot.

[B]

I like that. We were like, wasn't it crazy when they accidentally taught a bunch of things they shouldn't have in that psa and then we kind of just did it? So everyone listening is like, got new terms to call Catholics.

[A]

Oh, I will now be calling this. My Catholic friends will be getting called. The problem is macro snapper doesn't work anymore. So, ha ha, we made it not work. We changed the rules, so it doesn't work anymore. Let's go to Michael in Buffalo. Michael, thank you for calling. Why aren't you Catholic?

[B]

Hello.

[C]

Thank you so much for taking my call.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

First, I just wanted to especially thank you for helping catechize people that are entering the church and just didn't really have that formal education because I'm a catechist now and I truly appreciate it.

[A]

Oh, well, that's very nice of you to say. And I. And I feel like you're saying that to slide by the fact that you are a Catholic.

[C]

Well, I'm asking for non Catholic.

[A]

Okay. All right, go ahead, Michael.

[C]

And it's a tough one.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So I got bombarded today with some emails from people in the OCIA class of mine when they saw on the news that A man got entered into the Catholic Church who was married to another man, and Father James Martin was there celebrating it. And I had several emails saying, how can this be? I thought the teaching was clear about this. Or I had one even saying, this is why we left the Episcopal Church. So what would you say in a response to that? Because this seems to be something that comes up often.

[B]

Yeah, well, I've never actually seen this particular thing come up before. I've had cases where, you know, somebody is a confirmation sponsor or a godparent who is not an obvious candidate of someone, you know, living a devout Catholic life. But some of that is a little more subjective and you can just say, well, the. You know, they should have done a better job of, you know, screening the godparents or something like this. But, yeah, in this case, it just seems so flagrant. It seems so intense, intentional. Bishop Strickland at the USCCB meeting, publicly denounced it and suggested other bishops do the same. It'll be interesting to see if other bishops kind of take up that call and say something about it publicly. I think it's a. It's a delicate issue. You know, you don't want somebody's spiritual journey to be compromised. On the one hand, living in sin in this homosexual lifestyle, on the other hand, showing an obvious interest in and openness to Jesus Christ, helping to separate the wheat from the chaff there is the work of a good pastor. And unfortunately, that wasn't done in the case of Father James Martin. He just sort of took the approach of embracing sin rather than saying, well, it's wonderful to desire baptism, but if you're serious about the Christian life, if you're serious about entering this life of following Christ, you have to actually do that. You can't just choose to follow in the places where it's comfortable or convenient. But you do have to make a decisive break from sin. That's. I mean, even the Rite of Baptism is built on this fact that we reject Satan and all his works and all his empty promises before we can even say yes. So, you know, traditionally you would face west, and, you know, the candidate, the person meant to be the catechumen, the person meant to be baptized, would face west or liturgical west, denounce Satan, and then face east, and show that there is a whole movement of the body of, like, I am now turning towards Christ by the help of God. That's not what was communicated, unfortunately, in this. So I would just say that nothing in the promises of the church preclude a priest from having a baptism where Someone who shouldn't be a confirmation sponsor or a godparent is. Is the godparent. Like, that's wrong. He did a bad thing. But I don't think it's the same as, like, the Episcopalian church announcing that, like, two men can get married or anything like that. Like, the church teaching is very clear. It just wasn't followed here, Michael.

[C]

Well, yes. Well, in this case, the sponsor was actually the man's husband, so that was even a tougher situation.

[B]

Right. But I'm saying either way, they just. But, right. Like, you can't be living a lifestyle radically contrary to the gospel and getting baptized. The sponsor is one or the godparent was one part of the issue, but it's a bigger issue than that. So. Yeah.

[C]

Wonderful. One more last thing. I give my class your book Meeting the Protestants response. As much as I can get as many copies, I would love it if you would do an audiobook that. And we could assign it every year because we. I have them listen to Pope Peter and even your audio on Joseph. But thank you very much.

[B]

Well, reading the Protestant Response is a delightful book, but it is not mine. It is Carlo Broussard. So I think that is a good cause that you should take up with Mr. Broussard or Dr. Broussard. Yeah.

[A]

The problem with him reading it is he'll start having that Cajun accent halfway through. So I don't know.

[B]

But, yeah, it'll have a little spice in it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, it'll be spicy. It'll be a spicy version of the book Meeting the Protestant Response. That's the one you're using, huh? All right, we will pass on that. I know that they've got a backlog of books that they'd like to get out in audio format, so we'll check on it, Michael. But I'll tell you what, if there's any other book that we've got that would be helpful to you in your role as a catechist, we'd be happy to send it to you. Edgar will pick up the line in a minute and ask you what book from the Catholic Answers catalog you would like. Cause God bless you in your role as a catalog, not as a Cadillac, as a catechist.

[B]

And hopefully a catalyst.

[A]

Right. A catalyst for the faith. And also, congratulations on opening this call by just trying to slip past the fact that you're Catholic calling on the day we say, why aren't you Catholic? It was very, well, very subtly done. I am going to move on, though, so go ahead and hang on for that book Mark's in Trenton, Georgia. Mark, thank you for waiting. Why aren't you Catholic?

[C]

I think I'm not Catholic because of where I have found Christ, which would be in the South. Oh, it just seems like the, like in the Bible Belt church is not as, I mean, well, I'm probably in the belt buckle of the Bible Belt here.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[C]

But so, so, you know, we've got, there's some small Catholic churches, and as I told the screener, as a young boy, my parents, grandparents, they were all Catholic. We were up, up near Chicago. So, you know, I almost feel like I'm not now because now being married to a Baptist, there's, there's going to be no way to ever go back to. There's words that the last caller used. This catechist thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Which is why I'm really calling is because my sister, who is still.

[B]

In.

[C]

The Catholic Church, sent me a book on the A Year with the Catechism. And it always talks about the catechist. And so in that last caller was talking about catechist. What does that, what does that mean?

[A]

Oh, great.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that's a great question.

[C]

About ten Commandments.

[A]

But anyway, yeah, no, that's, that's fine. We're glad you called.

[B]

The teacher. So. But go ahead.

[A]

It's a teacher of the faith, but we should give a little more explanation. I mean, the basic evangelization. You got time. Evangelizing is the act of inviting people or introducing people to the person of Jesus and inviting them to make a response to the person of Jesus. Catechesis is the process, and the catechist is one who involves himself or herself in the process of fully educating someone in Jesus, in the Bible and in the teaching of the church. So it's the teacher of the faith.

[C]

The evangelist kind of does the introduction and gets them in the door. And then the catechist does the.

[B]

Theoretically, right. Yeah, yeah. The evangelist, the evangelium is the good news. So you are proclaiming the good news and you introduce people, you tell people about Jesus, and then some people are going to say yes to that. Some people are going to be interested. And then maybe you enter into a process of catechesis with them. Maybe you give them to someone else who can kind of guide them through that, but they give them more of the formation and the education of what is Christianity all about? What is the Catholic Church all about?

[A]

All right, now we can get to your question mark.

[C]

So I'm on. I'm a little bit behind. I'm on day 294 in the, in this book this year with the catechism, and it's going through the Ten Commandments, and it seems like it jumped over number two. What I would Thou shalt not make.

[A]

I feel like we're clipping you out when we, when we make any noise. I apologize for that. Mark, I think there's a technical problem here, and it's making it sound like you're dropping out on us. So what I'm getting from you is there's, there's, there's Protestant Ten Commandments and there's Catholic Ten Commandments. You want to know why the Catholics changed them?

[C]

Well, yeah, I want to know why they don't align so that. When. So that all of us in the church. Because you were talking about the Catholic Church. To me, I'm part of the Catholic Church in the sense of the universal church, where the body of Christ, even though I'm sitting in a Baptist congregation. That's how I feel at least, because I'm, I defend the Catholic. When people talk about Catholics, you know, I'm like, well, aren't we all Catholics in the sense of that? But so, so bother that the Ten Commandments then become a, an issue of argument. Well, how come the, the Catholics have their Ten Commandments and, and we've got our Ten Commandments?

[B]

That's a great question. So there are two issues that give rise to this. The first is that the Ten Commandments are given twice in Exodus 20 and then Deuteronomy 5. And they're not given an exactly like the content is not given in exactly the same order, which is strange. The second issue is that they're not numbered in the Bible. Actually, we'll add a third issue. They're called in the Bible the Decalogue, which means the ten words. Now, that could mean Ten Commandments, but it doesn't have to mean commandments. But either way you look at it, there's certainly more than 10 words given. There's certainly more than 10 commandments given. And so trying to figure out where to number them is a little tricky. And different people have numbered them differently throughout the ages. So the numbering you're used to, like what you'd get in a Baptist church, you'll find the same numbering in Eastern Catholic Church. On the other hand, Western Catholics number them more along the lines of Deuteronomy than along Exodus. And you'll find that numbering as well in a Lutheran Church. So Protestants don't agree and Catholics use different numbering among Catholics. It's confusing and then to make it more confusing, the Jewish numbering begins with Exodus 20, verse 2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt out of the house of bondage. They would say that's the first word of the 10 words, or that's part of the first word of the 10 words. So we have the same content, but we number it differently because of the fact that it's not numbered within the Bible. And everyone has to figure out where to put the bullet points to the numbers as they're making sense.

[A]

Let's come back and we'll get a response from you and we won't talk over you, Mark, because of this technical problem. Right back with more Joe Heschmeyer on Catholic Answers Live. We hope that one of the things that we communicate here at Catholic Answers Live is that our Catholic faith allows us to be fully serious about all the problems we encounter in the church and in the world. But it also lets us have light hearts and maybe even mix in a bit of fun. And that is exactly what our good friend Joe Heschmeyer does in his popular podcast Shameless Potpourri. You should check it [e-mail] Joe's got a deep grasp of the faith, morals, the teachings of the Church, all that, but he's also got a witty conversational style. He entertains and he informs, but you will leave equipped to better answer the most common challenges, misconceptions and questions about the Catholic faith. He's got insightful guests he does on air debates, and he takes a close look into all the things that you want to know about as a Catholic living today. You'll walk away knowledgeable and faithful, filled with joy. Look for Joe on his YouTube channel. Check him [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you hear, become a patron.

[C]

Throughout history, some Catholics have been among.

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The worst kind of villains, right?

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Or were they in cancelled? Historian Steve Weidenkopf digs into the lives and controversies of some of these Catholics.

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He takes on the anti Catholic versions of history and defends not only these figures, but the faith they represent. Order your copy of canceled [e-mail] or.

[B]

Ask for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you.

[A]

What is the Catholic Church? Everybody seems to have an opinion, but the Church never quite fits into the boxes people try to make for it. In the Faith Unboxed, author Andrew Petiprin looks at some of the most common boxes people put the Catholic Church in and explains why they don't fit in. Doing so, he brings us closer to what the church really is, the institution founded by Christ. Order the Faith unbox [e-mail] or ask for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you. Joe Heschmeyer, our guest, Catholic Answers Live. Why aren't you Catholic? Is our topic. So we're very grateful to those who call and share with us why they're not Catholic. We do try to be friendly and neighborly in the way that we speak to you, so I hope you'll feel welcome here. But you don't have to be too friendly. Don't tread too lightly if you really disagree with Catholics. We like those conversations as well. And I really want you to be very intelligent in the way you make your points and make it very difficult to respond because Joe's the one that has to respond to you. So go ahead and call.

[B]

I was going to say it sounds like you're asking for people to be meaner to me, but I actually agree with you. So please.

[A]

Well, you have to be too delicate with us. We're all right. You can call and tell us what you don't like about the Catholic church if you want. 888-31-87884. Mark is in Trenton, Georgia. He himself is a baptism, a Baptist, but baptism. Well, I was trying to you'll see. He's reading the Catechism instead of finishing the sentence. I just made one. He's reading his way through the teachings of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. His question is about the Ten Commandments. Did you feel I'll Mark, if you feel that you completed your answer, I.

[B]

Mean, there's more that could be said, because the basic issue, just to recap, is that more than 10 things are said in the 10 Commandments. There's no numbering, and the order of the things said between Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 varies slightly. And so throughout the ages, different groups of Christians and different individual theologians have when they're filling in, which number goes where. They've numbered them slightly differently. But this is only an issue of how we number them. The same content is true on all sides. We agree on Exodus 20 says all of these things. We agree Deuteronomy 5 says all of these things. The only question is which number is which, and so it's not a substantive disagreement.

[A]

All right, Mark, we had that little technical difficulty, but I would like to come back to you and see if if this answer is satisfactory and if you have any follow up?

[C]

Well, since you allowed us to be mean, I. While I was on hold, the. I went to Deuteronomy 5 and I happened to 1. I've got a new King James here. And I just so happened in Deuteronomy 5 had circled the. The bullet points as you talk about. And the. These seem to line up exactly with Exodus. But what I noticed in the. When the cat.

[B]

The.

[C]

On the Catholic version, they divide the. What I would call the. They divide the tenth commandment of the COVID the COVID part into two different covet, covet clauses. And they ignore this one about do not make any do. You shall not make for yourself any carved image. And that's the difference in the wording that Joe was talking about. But that's still, still number two.

[B]

So we would have that as part of number one.

[A]

The words aren't missing, they're just in number one.

[C]

Okay. The you shall have no other gods before me, and then, and then you shall not. So you're. You're saying what that means is you shall not make a carved image and bow down to it. And that's all part of it. That's all meaning no other gods.

[B]

Right. So what Exodus and Deuteronomy covet part. Yeah. So okay, on the COVID part, the numbering in Deuteronomy 5 is clear on this in verse 21, that neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife. This is the sin of lust, and that's the ninth commandment. And then after that. And you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's. That's greed. That's a different kind of covetousness. So they're two different sins because a sexual covetousness and a material covetousness are just not the same thing. Now you can group those two things together as just a prohibition against coveting, but. And that's one way of numbering them. I'm not saying it's bad to do that. It's fine to do that. You can also number those as two different sins where one is about the sin of lust and one is about the sin of covetous greed. Very good.

[C]

Well, I'll take that because that, that, that makes sense to me as far as how to break that one up.

[A]

Well, mark.

[B]

And then if I may, the other two two things to point out there when it says don't make a. The payal or pesal P, E, C E L is the Hebrew transliteration there. It literally is engraved image or graven image or something like that. But in context, it always means an idol. So it's not literally wrong to, like, engrave a quarter, for example. And God even commands in Exodus, the engraving of cherubim to put on the Ark of the Covenant. So it's not a literal prohibition against engraving things. It is a prohibition against idolatry. So one of the other reasons we number them, as we do in the west, is because the first commandment is about not having other gods, and an idol is having another God. So if you understand, like, what is being prohibited in the prohibition against graven images, it is an extension of, or a part of. You shall have no gods before me.

[C]

So when it comes to the. All of the statues, this will be the other argument is. So we've covered the graven image part and that that'll be okay. But when we have all of the saints, let's say. And how do you. So how do I argue or how do I defend the fact that the Catholic Church has all these saints that they pray to?

[B]

Yeah, great question. So it depends what we mean by prayer. Because if prayer is worship, which is what many Protestants understand it to be, then it would be wrong to do that. But biblically, prayer and worship are related, but they're not the same thing. So to give just an example, where could you pray at the time of Christ? Well, the answer was anywhere. You could go in your room to pray, you could go. The Pharisees like to go to the street corners in the synagogue to pray so that it could be seen by others. You could pray wherever you wanted to. Jesus would go to a lonely place. Everyone could pray wherever they wanted to. They knew this. What you couldn't do was offer worship in the strict sense of worship, because worship is a sacrificial offering. That's at the kind of the heart of worship. And so in John 4, when Jesus and the Samaritan woman are talking, one of the things she points out correctly is that the Samaritans worshiped on Mount Gerizim and the Jews worshiped at the Temple in Jerusalem. But that didn't mean that was the only place they prayed. So I mentioned this to say one of the reasons people sometimes think Catholics worship saints is because they don't know biblically the difference between prayer and worship. But prayer is conversation. It's asking for things like pray tout. I want you to tell me something. I'm asking you to tell me. It's literally A prayer. And that's not. I'm not worshiping you when I do that. And so if we ask the saints to ask for things for us, that's not worship. That is prayer. It is conversation with them, but it's not worship. And so should Christians have that kind of conversation with other Christians where they ask for their prayers? They should. In fact, we're told to make supplications for one another, and we're told to go to one another when we need prayers. And we see St. Paul doing this, and we see, you know, there's this long history of Christians praying for one another as part of the body of Christ. So I would just say this. Number one, should the members of the body of Christ pray for each other and ask for prayers from one another? Yes. Number two, is the body of Christ on earth only, or is it also in heaven? Well, it's also in heaven. Number three. So is it okay to ask other members of the body of Christ that are in heaven to pray for us? Seemingly, yes. And in fact, if we take the Bible seriously, that the prayer of a righteous man is efficacious, people who are in right relation with God will have their prayers heard in a way that those mired in sin won't. So one of the great things about the saints is you're not worried that they're secretly mired in sin. You're not worried that they're, you know, far from God. They'll actually pray for you where, you know, your Christian neighbor on earth may or may not. So go to your neighbor on earth. I'm not saying don't, but it makes sense to go to your Christian neighbor who's in heaven as well.

[A]

I'll tell you what, Mark, I'd love to send you a book. And thank you so much for a wonderful conversation. Very, very helpful and enlightening. And even when you try to be mean, I gotta say, you're not a very mean person, Mark. So if you'd like the book, we have a book called the Saints Pray for your, which is about the very question that you just asked, if you would like it. All you have to do is stay on the line and give us an address, and we'll send it to you there right in the buckle of the Bible Belt. And maybe we'll talk again. And God bless you and thank you so much. All right. Heading to the other side of the country or to the north? From the south, we'll go to Minnesota. Stephen, thank you for waiting. Steven, why aren't you Catholic?

[C]

Well, okay.

[B]

Can you hear me all right?

[A]

Very well?

[B]

Sure can. Okay, so I'm Catholic, but I'm on behalf of one of my brothers who is not Catholic.

[C]

He's atheist.

[A]

Gotcha.

[C]

I have this. He's very smart, Right.

[B]

And he always has this one argument that I just cannot combat.

[C]

I am not sure how to, you know, go about talking about it. You know, And I guess what he says is if God is omniscient, omnipotent.

[B]

Like he knows all things.

[C]

He's all powerful.

[B]

He knows the past, present, and future, right? Yep.

[C]

That means he knows what's going to happen.

[B]

Like, he knows it's going to happen.

[C]

By definition.

[B]

He says the universe would be deterministic. Right. So then we would have no free will. Yeah, that is a common objection. It's not. It doesn't logically follow at all. Knowing what's going to happen doesn't mean that the person you know is going to do something doesn't freely do it. Like, okay, the fact you might know, like, if I leave a Diet Coke out in Psy's office, he's going to drink it. That doesn't mean Psy doesn't have free will. It might mean I know how Psy is going to use his free will.

[C]

Okay, so, okay.

[B]

So then, I mean, they would like to come back saying something like, okay, yeah, if you watch, let's say you, you record a sports game and then you watch it the next day, but you already saw the score, so you know how it's going to turn out. Did the players still have free will?

[C]

This is true.

[B]

Okay, I see what you're saying there. Okay, he would probably come back saying.

[C]

Like, okay, yeah, like, sure, they, they.

[B]

Feel like they have free will in this, right? But like, again, like, say I watch a movie, right? And the person, like, he does their thing, he does what they do, then.

[C]

I watch it again.

[B]

Like, I know that they are going to do this. They can't do something different, you know, than what they are already going to do. Yeah, this is, this is where the recording kind of lags as an example. But that's not because they don't have free will. It's because they're literally not alive when you're watching it again. Like you can watch an old timey movie from 100 years ago. And so the issue isn't that they're like being forced against their will to do the show over again. It's that you're watching something that has already happened, so they're not free to do something different. Because it's in the past. But they were free when they did it to do the thing that they did.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

So even in that case, it's not really deterministic. It's just a case of the past is the past. Like, if you read a book about a past battle, you might know how the battle turns out, but that doesn't mean that you're reading the book forces, you know, the, the Spartans to behave as they did or whatever. I see.

[C]

Okay, good. That makes sense.

[A]

Starting to come together how?

[C]

Yeah, I'm just trying to think of how I would go about making the.

[B]

Argument for him in a way that, you know, he'd be able to. Yeah. You know, an example I like to use from Greek mythology is Cassandra. So Cassandra was a doomed prophetess who knew the future, but no one listened to her. So she would try to warn them and everyone just disregarded her warnings and then they would do the things that caused the problem she was warning about. Now, her knowing what was going to happen didn't limit their free will at all. Like, had they just listened, you know, like, it's not a true story, obviously, but it shows that it isn't. Like she's forcing this event to happen. She doesn't want the event to happen. Knowing about it doesn't force its occurrence. This is a common kind of misconception. And in the case of the way God knows things, it's maybe worth pointing out that it's not really that God knows the future and foreknowledge sort of sense like we would imagine or like would be true of, you know, Cassandra and the. The mythological example. It's rather that God is outside of time and so past, present and future are all simultaneously present to him. So the whole notion of a before and after in terms of prediction, etc. Is not real in the full sense. God is sort of standing back from temporality in a certain way and can see the whole thing, but each of the individual parts, it can still be free within that. Just because he can see how all of the parts fit together along all the centuries and everything else doesn't mean that they're not still free parts. It can seem that way to us at a sort of intuitive level. But the minute you try to explain, like, why it would be deterministic, I think it does fall apart because there's too many counterexamples of us knowing something's going to happen and it doesn't control the outcome. You know, you. You're on a mountain and you see two cars going down the road and they're going around a big curve. You know, they don't see each other. You know they're going to crash into each other. Your knowledge isn't forcing that to happen. Those cars could move out of the way, but you know from watching it that they're not going to. That's foreknowledge, but it's not a deterministic sort of foreknowledge in the sense that you're somehow forcing it to happen.

[C]

I like that example. I think I could work with that.

[A]

Steven, I want to give you a lot more to work with. We have a book by our colleague Trent Horne called Answering Atheism and probably give you some more things to consider in these conversations with your brother. If you'd like it, just hang on the line. I have to take a break. Right back with more why aren't you Catholic? With Joe Heschmeyer on CATHOLIC ANSWERS Live.

[C]

Hang on. We'll be right back with more CATHOLIC ANSWERS Live.

[A]

The catechism defines evangelization as the proclamation of Christ and his gospel by word and the testimony of life. But what does that look like in real life? It looks like St. Paul street evangelists out in the public square sharing the good news. We're a Catholic nonprofit that starts conversations by handing out free sacramentals. Then we employ our method of listen, befriend, proclaim and invite. Catholic Answers is supported in part by St. Paul Street Evangelization. Visit streetevangelization.com to learn more. Proclaiming the faith, changing lives.

[B]

The year was 1985. EWTN is carried on more than 220.

[C]

Cable systems and can be seen in.

[B]

Nearly 2 million homes, making it the fastest growing cable network in the country.

[A]

To learn more about Mother Angelica's life and the history of EWTN, visit ewtn.com Mother Angelica, why aren't you Catholic? That's the question we're asking. And lots of folks have been kind enough to call and tell us why they are not Catholic. Joe Heschmeyer is our guest. I'm Cy Kellett, your host. And if you're not Catholic and you want to get in on the conversation, we would love it if you'd call us. 888-318-7884. Going now to Peoria, Illinois, where Benjamin is listening. Benjamin, thank you. Oh, hello, Benjamin. You're not alone.

[C]

Hello. Good evening.

[A]

Good evening.

[B]

Good evening.

[C]

Just want to do a quick shout out, if I may. Kind of long story short, fell away from the faith when I was early, younger, came Back a couple years ago and your program has been really great and helping me grow. Wanted to give you that shout out, but I'm still not Catholic, so you guys need to do a better job.

[A]

All right. Thank you for the, for the progress report.

[B]

We'll do better. Okay.

[C]

So my question is I have an issue with the authority of the Pope.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

A couple issues are the, the. Sorry, I need to let my brain catch up or slow it down.

[A]

Okay, we're. All right, go ahead.

[C]

So I have, I like history. So I look at history a lot and I don't see the, the line going from Peter to the Bishop of Rome. So that's, that's a question. And then also with the Popes going between France and Italy and multiple Popes.

[B]

And.

[C]

It'S just like, it seems like there's too many problems there for me. So it's like, okay, yeah, I don't see the, how that authority can be held on to as what, what the Catholics tend to hold on to are.

[A]

All right, here's the deal. I wish, I wish Joe had written a book about this. Then he could really be of help to you, Benjamin.

[B]

So, Benjamin, I've written a book called Pope Peter and if you stand the line afterwards, I'll have them give you a copy of it. It'll give more of an in depth answer than I can probably afford to give here. But let's start with a couple foundational pieces. Is it fair to say biblically that Jesus chooses a top down structure of leadership for his church?

[A]

Oh, I didn't know you were going back to Benjamin.

[B]

Sorry. Oh, yeah, sorry. I'm going to ask him a question.

[A]

Go ahead, Benjamin.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes, but he puts Christ as the head of the church, not the bishop in Rome.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Christ is the ultimate foundation of the church. We would not want to follow someone who thought he could replace Christ. But in the same way that, you know, if you said, like, who is the head of your family? One answer is going to be you. One answer is going to be God the father. Right. But hopefully you don't confuse. In what sense you're the head. In what sense God's the head. But like St. Paul can say, for this reason I bow the knee before the potter from whom every patria in heaven on earth is named. Like every fatherhood comes from the fatherhood of God. Well, similarly, Peter being the rock comes from Christ being the rock. It's not a rival rock. So you'll find the same kind of language and you can go back even to the old Testament, Abraham is described as a rock, but that doesn't replace the fact that God is the rock of Israel. It's not an either or in that sense, but there is rock language used to describe Peter. In fact, his name is changed from Simon to Peter. And Peter means rock. And Aramaic, it's just very simply like, you are rock and upon this rock I'll build my church. But really, before I even get to that, I just mean to establish there is top down leadership first and second. Peter seems to have this very special authority within it. So Christian leadership is servant leadership. Jesus tells the apostles this when they're fighting at the Last supper about which of them is the greatest. He gives himself as the example and says, behold, him among you is one who serves. But then he does affirm that the 12 are called to be the servant leaders of the Church. That they are. He. He says, I have prepared 12 thrones for you. And he says, as my father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you. You may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. This is what I mean by the top down kind of monarchical leadership of the Church. It looks like a kingdom, it doesn't look like a democracy. Very next verse, he singles out one disciple, Simon Peter, and says, simon Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, but that's you all, that he might sift you all like wheat. Then he switches from the plural to the singular and says, but I've prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brethren. So all the 12 are to be servant leaders of the Church. One of the 12, Simon Peter, is to be the servant of the servants of God. This is the basic structure of the church. And you can go back and look at the structure of the family. You can look at the structure of Adam and Eve, of the patriarchs, of the prophets, of the priests, of the kings of Israel. And the idea that there's always one person with whom the buck stops is this recurring theme in the plan of God and salvation history. So then the question just becomes, does that suddenly change after the time of Christ for some reason? And the answer is no. You asked about two specific historical events. One, how do we know this authority continues on from Peter? And we know this in several different ways. You can find references to this, for instance, when St. Ignatian talks about the church of Rome presiding in charity and his letter to them in the year 107, you can find in the year 96 Clement of Rome, writing to resolve a controversy in Corinth, even while an apostle is alive, they've written to the Romans. But maybe the clearest example is Irenaeus in about the year 180 when he talks about the necessity, he says, of the Church of Rome. He calls it the very great, the very ancient and universally known church, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul. And he says it is a matter of necessity that every church should agree with this church on account of its preeminent authority. And then in the next paragraph, he traces one by one, every bishop of Rome from the time of Peter and Paul to the time of Eleutherius in 180. And so we don't just know that the authority passes from Peter to the successors. We can tell you who they are by name, and we can tell you, not because of some like late medieval legend or something, but from Christians in the 1000s who grew up knowing people who were discipled by the apostles, like Polycarp. So that's the first part. Like does, do we have clear historical evidence of this authority passing along through the successors in Rome? We do. The second is, as you rightly point out, there are these controversies in the 15th century. So to make a long story medium, the pope is elected pope, but there are cardinals who voted for him, who claim that, oh well, we didn't feel free to elect the pope. And so they, they say that the papal election was invalid and they try to hold another election. They don't have the authority to do this because there already is a pope. You can have a papal conclave when the pope is dead. You can't just have a new papal conclave when you don't like who the pope pope is. And so this new anti pope starts claiming to be the pope and he's not. And then another group of cardinals gets together in Italy and Pisa and says, well, we're going to reject both these guys and get a new pope so that it's all clean. And this of course doesn't solve the problem. It makes it worse because now you have the real Pope in Rome, you got a fake pope in France, and you've got a fake pope in Pisa. This was a confusing, messy situation. It embarrassed the church, it undermined the Church's authority in a lot of ways, but it doesn't invalidate the existence of the papacy. Like you can have counterfeit money and it doesn't mean money's not real. You can have two different people who claim they're married to the same woman, and it doesn't mean she doesn't have a husband. Like, there might just be times where there's a question about the validity of one marriage, you know, so you should an annulment be granted? There might be times where two different people claim to have won a presidential election, but that doesn't mean that the answer is that there's no president. So it was a bad moment in terms of the legacy of the church, but there was always a Pope throughout.

[A]

That Benjamin, you can hear the music. So we gotta leave it there. I'm gonna send you Pope Peter Joe's book if you'd like it. And because you're in Peoria, Illinois, the hometown of our own Luke Bender, who runs our YouTube, we'll send you another of Joe's books. How about the Eucharist is really Jesus. Both of those books coming your way for the cost of your address. Just tell it to Edgar. He'll get the address and we'll send it out. We're going to continue next hour with why aren't you Catholic? There's one line open. Maybe there'll be 288-831-87884.