#12461 Why Stay Catholic If Orthodox Have Valid Sacraments and Papacy? - William Albrecht

Summary

Catholic Answers Live: Why Stay Catholic If Orthodox Have Valid Sacraments and Papacy?

Guest: William Albrecht
Host: Edgar Lujano
Date: November 17, 2025
Episode: #12461

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Catholic apologist and patristics expert William Albrecht joins host Edgar Lujano to address a perennial question in Catholic-Orthodox relations: If the Eastern Orthodox Church (and Oriental Orthodox) possesses valid sacraments and apostolic succession, why remain Catholic? Listeners call in with questions about liturgy, doctrine (including the papacy, Immaculate Conception, and filioque), visible unity, and the significance of Marian beliefs. The conversation is grounded in early Church history and Scripture, with a respectful and charitable tone regarding the Orthodox.

---

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Why Remain Catholic if the Orthodox Have Valid Sacraments?

[03:58] William Albrecht:

• Both Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox have valid apostolic succession and sacraments.
• Catholicism and Orthodoxy share much, but diverge on several doctrines including:
  • The papacy (primacy and infallibility).
  • The filioque clause (Holy Spirit's procession).
  • The Immaculate Conception.
  • Purgatory.
• “Why remain Catholic or why become Catholic? Because in Eastern Orthodoxy, there is not that fullness of the truth.” (William, 06:09)
• Unity is critical: Fullness in faith and doctrine, universal communion, and a visible hierarchy as established by Christ (especially in the person of the Pope).

---

2. Scriptural and Historical Arguments for Unity and the Papacy

[08:07] & [10:08] William Albrecht:

• Scriptural basis for unity: Philippians 2:2 and John 17:21 cited for necessity of “one mind” and visible unity.
• Peter’s role (John 21:15-17): Christ gives Peter a universal shepherding mandate—over all the Church ("flock"), including bishops and priests.
• Early councils and Fathers support papal primacy and continuity (“perpetuity”) of Peter’s successors.

Notable Quote:

• “Our Lord wants you to have the fullness of apostolic doctrine, of unity and of authority, and that universal communion to which our Lord bound salvation history.” (William, 06:30)

---

3. Orthodox Iconography vs. Catholic Art, and Peter’s Tomb

[12:22] Caller Betsy; William’s response:

• Orthodox icons: Depictions of Christ, Mary, and saints follow an “iconographic canon” to maintain consistency in features and style; less artistic freedom.
• Catholic tradition: Diverse artistic expression—shaped by culture (e.g., Mexican, African, Medieval European styles).
• Peter’s tomb as evidence?
  • Yes, in Peter’s case: His tomb beneath the Vatican’s high altar matches ancient testimony—"all ancient sources" affirm his Roman martyrdom, supporting Catholic continuity.
  • But not a universal rule: Possession of a saint’s body does not, by itself, establish a church as true (e.g., Anglicans and Venerable Bede).

---

4. Disagreeing with Priests on Doctrine

[17:11] Caller Emily

• It’s permissible to respectfully disagree with a priest if he is:
  • Expressing personal opinions,
  • Diverging from official doctrine,
  • Offering theological speculation, pastoral, or political preferences.
• The key is charity, respect, and private conversation—with reference to the Catechism or magisterial documents.

---

5. The Papacy as the Central Dividing Point

[29:10] Caller Ari

• Oriental Orthodox often align with Catholic views on Immaculate Conception, original sin, sometimes filioque, purgatory—but reject the papacy.
• Why is the papacy such a big deal?
  • Christ gave the “keys” to Peter specifically: "You are Peter, I give you the keys, I have prayed for you, strengthen your brethren, shepherd my sheep."
  • Unity depends on communion with Peter’s successor:
    • Oriental Orthodox ecumenical councils (like Ephesus) recognized papal supremacy in perpetuity.
    • Rejecting the papacy means rejecting the divinely established principle and guarantee of doctrinal continuity.

Notable Quote:

• “Rejecting the papacy means that you reject doctrines that flow from it... That is the divinely established principle of unity.” (William, 32:10)

---

6. Sedevacantists vs. Orthodox—Why the Different Treatment?

[19:49] Caller Emmanuel (Eric Defoy)

• Sedevacantists are Catholics who reject the currently reigning Pope(s) and claim the chair is vacant.
• Key difference from Orthodox: Sedevacantists claim to represent the "true" Catholicism while denying its dogmas; Orthodox do not claim to be Catholic and recognize their separation.
• Both lack full communion with Rome, but only the Orthodox have preserved apostolic succession and valid sacraments.
• “Their [Orthodox] lack of communion with the Pope, that is a real wound. And we pray daily for the body to no longer be fractured.” (William, 23:12)

---

7. Marian Dogmas and Their Importance

[36:27] Caller Maria

• Assumption and Immaculate Conception: Why do they matter?
  • These protect the identity of Christ and are Christological doctrines; part of divine revelation.
  • Early fathers and Scripture support the Immaculate Conception (Mary as New Ark, “full of grace”).
  • Orthodox do accept the Assumption (Dormition), and perpetual virginity is universally held among apostolic churches.
  • If doctrines are divinely revealed, they cannot be discarded to achieve external unity.

Notable Quote:

• “These dogmas protect the identity of Christ… They are Christological and revealed to us in divine revelation.” (William, 37:40)

---

8. Filioque (“and the Son” in the Creed): Why the Dispute?

[49:38] Caller Paul

• History: Pope Leo III taught the doctrine but did not insert it into the Creed for prudential/disciplinary reasons.
• Augustine and even some early Eastern Fathers taught the filioque.
• Scripture: Revelation 22 cited as evidence—Spirit proceeds “from the throne of God and of the Lamb,” suggesting procession from both Father and Son.
• The problem for Orthodoxy is that their own venerated Fathers (e.g., Augustine) taught filioque.

Notable Exchange:

• William: "If Augustine taught it, which he did... what does that tell us? And he’s venerated as a Titan of the Trinity." (51:18)

---

9. “Aren’t We All Going to Heaven Anyway?” – The Need for Full Unity

[44:25] Caller John

• Objection: Since Catholics and Orthodox both may go to heaven, why divide?
• William: There is no guarantee of salvation for anyone; Christ explicitly willed visible, structural unity under one shepherd—“not multiple churches.”
• Rejecting papal unity is grave and against Christ’s explicit intent for his Church. Partial communion is not full communion; “the Church is not just a heaven delivery system.”

Notable Quote:

• “Partial communion is not the same as full communion. The one Eucharist demands one church.” (William, 48:00)

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “[The Orthodox] may have valid sacraments, but they don’t have the doctrine of the filioque... They don’t believe that the Pope is the supreme head of the Church… But early on, and biblically, primacy and supremacy went hand in hand.” (William, 04:35)
• “A Catholic must believe in the papacy. It is a non-negotiable dogma. A Catholic cannot deny the papacy without denying a dogma of divine revelation.” (William, 23:10)
• “He picked one man… You are Peter. I give you the keys… No, it is a major issue because rejecting the papacy means you reject doctrines that flow from it.” (William, 30:51)
• “Heaven is possible for all – the key word possible. But unity under the normative circumstances is required by Christ for his church.” (William, 49:07)
• “There is one Faith, there is one baptism… Christ didn’t simply come to get individual souls into heaven. He came to establish one visible church under one shepherd united in one faith.” (William, 48:00)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:58 – Main question: Why remain Catholic if the Orthodox have valid sacraments?
• 08:07 & 10:08 – Scriptural and early church basis for papal primacy and unity.
• 12:22 – Call on iconography and Peter’s tomb.
• 17:11 – Disagreement with priests: what’s allowed?
• 29:10 – Call on the significance of the papacy in Oriental Orthodoxy.
• 36:27 – Marian doctrines: Why do they matter for unity?
• 44:25 – Call: “Why does it matter if we’re all saved anyway?”
• 49:38 – Call on the filioque and early Church controversy.

---

Summary

This episode dives deeply into the Catholic-Orthodox divide, focusing especially on why Catholics cannot see the Orthodox (or even Oriental Orthodox) as having the fullness of the faith, despite shared sacraments and apostolic succession. The papacy is identified as the central “principle of unity,” not merely an administrative or honorary difference. Listeners are reminded continually that unity is not just optional or convenient—it is divinely mandated by Christ and consistently affirmed by the earliest witnesses of Christian history.

Albrecht, ever irenic yet firm, clarifies that important Marian and Trinitarian doctrines are scripturally and historically rooted. He insists that the difference is not trivial, and charitable dialogue, prayer, and hope for ultimate reunion must be held—without surrendering revealed truth in the pursuit of superficial unity.

---

Tone

Respectful, scholarly, direct, and always seeking genuine unity in charity and truth—reflecting the apologetics spirit of Catholic Answers Live.

Transcript

[A]

Buying or selling your home. Real Estate for Life can connect you with a pro life real estate agent. When Real Estate for Life receives a referral fee, they donate 65% to Catholic Answers. Learn more at realestateforlife.org.

[B]

Welcome to Catholic Answers Live. Happy Monday, everyone. My name is Edgar Lujano, producer for the show and a fill in host on occasion when SI is out and about, gone fishing or doing who knows what else. So it's always fun to be with you guys here, especially on this wonderful Monday where we have an awesome two hours. My good friend today, William Albrecht, the Patristic pillar himself, who runs Patristic Pillars. It's good to have you on, man. I love hosting the show with you, brother.

[C]

Thrilled and pumped to be with you every time I get to join you. We have a great time. Now, I want to be clear, I have a great time no matter what when I'm on Catholic Answers.

[B]

You're just gassing me up now. That's what you're doing.

[C]

No, no, I love it, man. I love it. I'm glad to be here as well. This is a great. And I think we got a great topic to talk about as well.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well, if you have a question, we're going to be taking questions on Orthodoxy. So if you have any questions about Eastern Orthodoxy or one of the different Orthodox churches that are out there, if you're an Orthodox person yourself, you want to give us a call and maybe question Catholic. There's no man to call other than William Altbrg. Man, you have done so many debates online. It's hard to keep up with all the debates that you do. So with that, tell me a little more about Patristic Pillars and all the content that you do online.

[C]

Yeah, we really, really focus in on approaching the faith from the very beginning, from the root. So we go to the Old Testament, of course, you go to the New Testament. But then we go and we look at the early fathers. How did the early Church fathers, those figures I call Patristic pillars, how do they confirm our Catholic faith? And as you bring up very, very, very rightly there, I debate a lot. I love to debate and in fact, I've debated a lot of my Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox friends. We've debated many of them and every time it has been a great, great joy. This is a topic that I take a lot of joy in dialoguing about because I actively do apologetics, reaching out to Eastern Orthodox, even Oriental Orthodox. I've got a lot of near and dear friends that are on both of those sites. So I'm really, really happy to be here. And I think a lot of people are going to get a lot out of the show.

[B]

Good, good. Well, if you want have a question for William, give us a call. 888-318-7-884. That's 888-318-7884. If you have a question about Orthodoxy, what the Catholic responses to some of the arguments that they have against Catholicism or if you're Orthodox yourself, give us a call. We'd love to talk to you. Maybe ask your question to William or if you him a little bit. I know he's always game for that. The man never shies away from a challenge when it's up there. But actually, I want to go ahead and start with a question for you, William. So in today's world, in the Catholic world, I think the understanding of liturgical Christianity or original Christianity is whenever you talk about that, you think of Catholicism and you think about Orthodoxy. I remember when I started learning apologetics, I didn't know what the Eastern Catholic Churches were and I didn't know what Orthodoxy was. Now it's actually pretty common. It's out there. And because they have valid sacraments, a lot of people think that, all right, it's a little more interchangeable. And you see a lot of people who are leaving the Catholic faith to, to join Orthodox churches mainly because they have valid sacraments. So my question to you is why should people remain Catholic if the Orthodox have valid sacraments as well?

[C]

That is a really, really good question, Brother Edgar. And indeed, our not only Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters have valid secums. The Orientals do as well. Now, for people that are wondering, okay, well, who are you talking about? When we're, when we refer to the Oriental Orthodox, those are those Coptic, Armenian, Syriac, Ethiopian melancholy churches. We're referring to all of those. But they both have valid apostolic succession. They do. They have valid apostolic orders, holy orders. They have valid sacraments. Why even remain Catholic? Now, when talking about our Eastern Orthodox friends, there's a lot that we have in common. But then there are things that of course, we don't share in common. For instance, they may have valid sacraments, but they don't have the doctrine of the filioque, which was held by the early Eastern fathers and very clearly by the early Latin fathers and taught biblically. And a lot of Eastern Orthodox don't believe in the Immaculate Conception. The problem with that is that even the early Eastern fathers and their early Eastern saints, by early Eastern Saints I mean, 1300, 1200s, 13, 14, 15. I can list their titans after the schism that held in the Immaculate Conception. And then a lot of them reject purgatory. And of course, I can go on and on. There are other minor issues, but major issues. We're going to have the filioque, Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, and then the papacy. They don't believe that the Pope is the supreme head of the Church. They don't. They really don't believe in the primacy of Peter. They will tell you, let's say. No, hold on, Edgar and William. We do believe it, but we don't believe in papal infallibility or papal supremacy. No, but early on, and biblically, primacy and supremacy went hand in hand. That is the issue with our Eastern Orthodox century. We love them greatly. They got valid sacraments. Why remain Catholic or why become Catholic? Because in Eastern Orthodoxy, there is not that fullness of the truth. And we tell them that in a respectful manner. People need to have the fullness of the faith. Our Lord wants you to have the fullness of apostolic doctrine, of unity and of authority, and that universal communion to which our Lord bound salvation history. He doesn't want any of these schisms in the body. He wants us to be united and to be united under. Under the hierarchy that was laid out in the Bible and followed in the early Church. Now, there's one thing, Edgar, that I get accused a lot of, William. You always go after the Eastern Orthodox guys. I have near and dear friends that are Eastern Orthodox. Many of them are scholars. And I've written a book or one of their top scholars contributed a chapter to my book. I'm very friendly with them. But to show everybody that I'm equal all the way around, I even noticed there are issues within Oriental Orthodoxy. They've got valid sacraments. So, Edgar, you may wonder. You may tell me. Okay, William, hold on. There are people even converting to Oriental Orthodoxy. What's up with that? Well, there are issues there, again, a lot that we can agree upon. But ultimately, the real beating heart of the issue is they lack the papacy. They don't have it. And early on, the early fathers believed in papal supremacy. And even early councils that we hold in common where the Oriental Orthodox taught papal supremacy. It's a little bit awkward that early councils that they hold to be ecumenical taught papal supremacy. And today they don't hold to that particular teaching. So why remain Catholic or why become Catholic? Very clearly, it is the only church that has the fullness of the faith. And that is what we're here to.

[B]

Show today, from what I get of all this is it seems that the key phrase, the Bible verse that keeps coming to mind is unity. And it's Philippians 2, 2, which says, complete my joy by. By being the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. That, to me is like. It is. What gets down to why fracture off into different churches when Catholicism has a unifying faith?

[C]

There is no doubt about that. And that unifying faith is very important. Now, anyone can come back and say, well, Edgar, look at that. You've got. You guys have got all these warts in your churches. You have all these sinful priests and bishops. Well, I hate to break it to you, but in the early church, that was an issue there, too. In fact, St. Paul over and over tells you he's dealing with divisive churches. We're going to have wolves that are going to try to rip the flock away until the end of time. But the fact of the matter is, the Bible is very clear. We need to be united under the head, and that visible head on earth is the successor of St. Peter. The Bible tells you that, Edgar. Now, the important thing, when dialoguing with all of our Orthodox friends, we need to begin with the Bible. Then we go into early church history, and what are we told about Peter in the gospel of St. John, right there, he is made the shepherd. But one moment, I need to remind the audience why that's a very powerful passage. It's John 21:15, 17. It is very powerful because we may tend to read it, Edgar, and just scroll or gloss over it. But then I pause and I remind people in that verse, and I ask people, our bishops and our priests, are they part of the flock? And they're going to have to answer, yes. All of our Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox are going to have to say, yeah, no doubt. A bishop is an overseer, a presbyter is a priest. They are all part of the flock. Well, our lord in John 21 tells Peter to shepherd his flock. He has made the shepherd over that flock. He is the visible leader over that flock, meaning that includes apostles, who are shepherds, too. The faithful, the whole church. He is a shepherd over all of them. And that is a universal pastoral mandate, and that was to continue in perpetuity. And today there's only one church that upholds that image, that biblical model that our Lord laid out, and that is the Catholic Church.

[B]

All right, well, if you have a question about Orthodoxy, or if you are Orthodox, you're more than welcome. To give us a call 888-318-7884. That's triple eight 31 truth. To give us a call and ask your question to William. When we come back from the break, we'll get straight to the calls right here on CATHOLIC Answers Live.

[C]

Catholic Answers Live, St. Carlo Acutis shared.

[A]

A dream in which Sister Lucia appeared to him, saying the First Saturday devotion could change the destiny of the world. The Blue army of Our lady of Fatima invites you to practice this Devotion. Join a First Saturday virtual pilgrimage beginning December 6th. Experience spiritual meditations while traveling virtually through Portugal and Spain to 12 sacred sites tied to the Fatima story. Track your journey with a passport and stamps. Visit bluearmy.com and select First Saturday Pilgrimage to learn more. Sponsored by Our Lady's Blue Army.

[D]

Underwriting for Catholic Answers Live is provided by Magnificat. Published monthly, Magnificat features texts of daily Mass, prayers, articles, meditations, art commentaries and more in step with the liturgical rhythm of the church.

[C]

On the [e-mail] the EWTN radio listener comment line is open right now for you. If you've got a question or comment about what you hear on EWTN Radio, we'd love to hear it. Call 205-795-5773. We'd also like to know how our programming has impacted your life or the life of someone you know. That number again, 205-795-5773. And thank you for listening to EWTN Radio.

[B]

Welcome back. CATHOLIC ANSWERS Live here with William Albrecht of Patristic Pillars. And we are answering questions on Orthodoxy. So if you have a question, there's one line open. Give us a call, 888-31-8-7884. That's 8831 Truth. To ask your question, we go over to Betsy in Dearborn, Michigan, listening on Ave Maria Radio. Betsy, welcome to the show. Go right ahead.

[E]

Hi.

[F]

Two questions. The first one, and I think I'm going to screw up the name, so please correct me. Why does it seem that in the Orthodox religion the icon of Jesus or the depiction of Christ is all the same and it's the Panto creator, whereas with Catholicism, it's up to everybody's interpretation. And the second question is the fact that Peter is entombed at the Vatican. Can that also be evidence that the true church would have Peter's body?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So those are really good questions. Now, number one, within Eastern Orthodoxy, the reason Our Lord, and not only our Lord, but Mary as well and many other saints are gonna look the same virtually no matter where you go is because early on within Eastern Orthodoxy, they have what we know, what is known as an iconographic canon. What does that mean? That means that our Lord and even Our Lady. Now, I don't know about the other saints. I imagine it must be the same, but I know about Our Lord and Our Lady. They've got to be painted according to a set inherited form. Now, that is. That is not dogmatic, meaning that nobody can use any artistic freedom. But that really is the common received tradition. The reason being, early on, Orthodoxy wanted to remain consistent on facial structure, style, posture, and what have you. So their icons all look pretty much the same in that regard. Within Catholicism, there is much more artistic freedom. Now, what do I prefer? I love them both. I think within Eastern Christianity, they're great icons. They've got. And in Catholicism, we have a wonderful and a beautiful iconographic tradition where not only do you see beautiful icons, but you see beautiful icons in Catholicism through the lenses of a particular given culture. And I love it. Whether it be the Mexican artistry, African artistry, medieval Western Christian artistry, they're all phenomenal. And we can see the beauty come out of all of them. Now, you brought up an example of can the Catholic Church can use the fact that they have Peter's body as proof that they are the true church?

[B]

Was.

[C]

Is that. Was that your question?

[F]

Well, yeah. That's not. It sounds kind of pure aisle. I know there are obvious other reasons to why, but when that way. Yeah. So that would be okay.

[C]

Now, I want to be very clear in the case of Peter. Yes. Not in every case. What do we mean by that? I will give the yes to the case of Peter because, number one, it will prove what Catholicism has always claimed and said, that St. Peter died in Rome. And that is an unbroken fact. All ancient sources, whether they be Catholic or pagan or Orthodox, agree that Peter's martyrdom occurred in Rome. And that shows you without a doubt that the Catholic interpretation on St. Peter's life is the correct one. But I wouldn't make that argument for every body. The reason being, there are many Protestant churches that contain the bodies of martyrs or of great saints of ours. That wouldn't prove that they are a true church. That would only prove that at a particular time in history, they came into possession of the body. One example would be in England. Many Anglican churches have bodies of great saints that were thoroughly Catholic. The Venerable Bead was not Anglican in any way. He was thoroughly Catholic. Yet in order to Go and venerate his body at his tomb. You've got to go into an Anglican church. And. And so that would be the kind of nuance I would make. It really all depends on the circumstances. Now, in the case of Peter, his tomb was found directly beneath the Vatican's high altar, meaning that the main altar is literally over Peter's bones. No other Christic communion possesses this. So then it would show that all the early traditions do link Peter's martyrdom with the true church. In the case of Peter, yes. I say in the case of others, we've got to nuance that and we've got to really examine it.

[F]

Betsy, Fascinating. Thank you.

[B]

All right, thanks, Betsy. Thank you so much for your question. We go over to Emily in Iowa watching us on YouTube. Emily, go right ahead.

[E]

Hi.

[F]

This isn't really a question. Orthodoxy. I don't think you guys can help me today.

[B]

Go right ahead with the question. It's okay. We'll take it.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Okay. Well, okay.

[F]

Long story short, when is it ever okay to disagree with your priest on something in Catholic teaching?

[C]

Yeah, now you can, you can definitely disagree with when the priest teaches something contrary to doctrine or if the priest is giving his personal opinion, you can disagree. What about theological speculation? You can disagree. What about pastoral preferences? You can disagree as well. Even, even liturgical preferences, Even. And we're not going to get into that right now. But even political opinions, you can disagree. And even non binding, non binding biblical interpretations, you can disagree there as well. But the important thing is to always disagree in a respectful manner. If your priest teaches error, and it's very possible, he's human, he's not infallible, the good thing would be, the good thing that you should do is to respectfully approach him in a respectful, private manner with charity, with. And one thing that would help is approaching him with a catechism or the magisterial documents in hand, never make it a point to try to attack the priest or publicly humiliate him. I'll give you one example. I had a very friendly dialogue with the priest years back when I was under the opinion that the priest had said something quite erroneous during Mass. Well, in a very friendly and charitable manner. After Mass, I only requested clarification and Father told me, you know what, William? I was very tired. I definitely misspoke. But there are ways of approaching people in a respectful manner. The one thing that you shouldn't do is, you know, try to make an attack on this character or claim he's heretical or claim that he's evil or what have you. You are able to, to disagree with a priest, but remember to be very, very respectful because these are our shepherds and we should be incredibly grateful that we have these wonderful priests and bishops and we got to pray for them as well. We got to pray for them day in and day out.

[F]

Yeah. I'm a seventh sister and he's actually my assigned priest, so that's what I do.

[B]

All right, great. Thank you.

[E]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you very much. Emily, thank you for your question. With that, we go over to Emmanuel, who's here in California. He's also watching us on YouTube. Emmanuel, go right ahead.

[G]

Yes.

[H]

How's it going today?

[B]

Doing great.

[H]

Oh, well, brother, great to be talking be so great to be talking to two legends like yourselves. My question is this.

[C]

With, with.

[G]

Okay.

[H]

My question was this. I know when we're Catholic, right. There's a dogma that we have to follow. The papacy, correct. The keys of Peter.

[C]

Right.

[H]

And if someone doesn't, someone doesn't adhere to the keys of Peter, that's Catholic, you could be a good Catholic, right. That serves in the church and say, for instance, they don't agree with the Pope, the papacy at the moment and they would be considered a set of accountants.

[I]

Correct.

[H]

And they would be an aftermath. They would be kicked out of the church. They would be in a grave sin. So in my, me saying this, this, I'm relating this to the Orthodox Church. Please, please let me finish this. And so since they, since, since if a set of the cantis is known as a, as being in mortal sin now, how come we can say that the Orthodox Church is in alignment like in, in, like in some sort of communion or that people, it's okay that we call them our brothers and sisters if they don't adhere to this keys and to the authority of Peter, like the same way we look at our brothers who don't see them as the Pope we call instead of a Cantus and they would be kicked out of the church. Right. And so why don't we see the Orthodox or Protestants the same way?

[C]

It does make sense. Number one, there is an enormous difference. The difference is SATA Vicantous have rejected the teachings of the Catholic Church and they do what the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox do not do. They continue to pretend to be Catholic. None of the Orientals or Eastern are going to claim that they are Catholic. They're not going to. Now they'll of course claim that they are rightly the correct Church, but they're not going to claim to be Catholic the way they say to the contests continue to do when they reject official Catholic teaching. They recognize that they are not in communion with Catholicism. But the set of a contest claim to be the true form of Catholicism. So there's a big difference there. Now how can we call them brothers? Well, the way we can even call a state of a contest a brother. They're brothers by baptism. They're not in full communion. Their sacraments are valid because they have preserved apostolic succession. And there yet again is another big difference. Many of these, many of these state of a contest, not all of them, many of them become self appointed priests or bishops. That is completely out of communion with apostolicity. They're not in communion with the Apostolic Church at all. They're out there creating their own bishops, their own priests from people that don't even have apostolic authority. So there is a big difference. But we want to be honest with our orthodox. Their lack of communion with the Pope, that is a real wound. And we pray daily for the body to no longer be fractured. The body of Christ we see, sadly, is with our Eastern and our Oriental friends that are not in full communion. But a Catholic must believe in the papacy. It is a non negotiable dogma. A Catholic cannot deny the papacy without denying a dogma of divine revelation. And when the set of a contest do that, they are denying that dogma. And when our separated Orthodox brethren do it, they're doing the same. Now the Orthodox reject the papacy and that does mean they're not in full communion. As the Catechism tells you, they have real particular churches, but they don't have full communion because they reject papal jurisdiction, papal primacy, and with that they reject papal infallibility, they reject later ecumenical councils, and that is a big problem. But remember, they are still our brothers for one key reason. They do possess apostolic succession. And they do have valid sacraments because they have valid bishops, valid priests, a valid Eucharist, valid sacraments. They're not going about having lay people merely making bishops or priests the way you find in a lot of these state of a contest groups.

[B]

How's that, brother?

[I]

And that's.

[H]

You know what I just want to say. You two legends are amazing. I try to, I try to hide my voice from will. You mighty one, what are you going to be doing?

[C]

That was Eric. I know it's Eric. There you go. I'm gonna be with you, my man. I knew it was you, man. I'm gonna be with you, man.

[B]

I even, I even typed it on the document. I Said, I think this is our friend Eric Defoy.

[C]

Did you really? I didn't see the document. There you go, man. We love you, man.

[B]

Eric, go ahead and promote it. Go. Go ahead. Go for it.

[C]

Promote it on the air, brother. Promote it.

[G]

Dude.

[H]

If you guys don't know this, this legend right here, right, this will. He's going to be in Southern California at the Sacred Heart Chapel in Kavina, California at the Catholic Family Conference. So come and join us if you go to tuc7.org or you can find the tickets there.

[I]

God bless you guys.

[B]

God bless you, brother Eric. Hold on. What's the website? Is there a website for them to check out? Yeah.

[H]

If you go to traditional urbancatholic.org or tuc7.org it's all going to be about learning how to practice our faith with our families. You know, praying the rosary, vacations to the confessional and adoration, what it really means to be a Catholic family.

[I]

Please join us.

[B]

Absolutely. And I have to. And I have to love you too, brother. There is other couple people that actually friends of Catholic cancers are going to be speaking there as well, apart from Eric and you, William. But it's also going to be our good friend Rose Sweet and also sips with Sarah. Adrian is also going to be there speaking Sips with Sarah. Yeah, that's right. So go ahead and check them out. TUC7.com check that out. Eric, good to hear from you, brother. We love it. Yeah, absolutely. You know, William, I think it's important to always find your way to organize to public meetings like this. I think one of the problems with is we tend to be chronically online and we come up with ideas, especially when it comes to discussing with. There's a trope, the ortho bros online that kind of seem uncharitable. That's why it's important to be at events like this, so that way you can connect with people in person and actually encounter the person and not just encounter the Persona or the avatar you see online.

[C]

Without a doubt. Great point there, brother.

[B]

Amen. All right. Well, I'm not going to give the phone number out because the lines are full. When we come back, we'll take more questions on orthodoxy right here on Catholic Answers Live.

[D]

Lots of people have big questions about Catholicism. It needs a big book of answers. And now it's got one. The Big Book of Catholic Answers is filled with helpful replies to more than 250 questions about the faith. Questions about God, salvation, history, the creed, the Bible. The list goes on and on. Order your copy of the Big Book of Catholic answers [e-mail] or ask for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you.

[A]

We hope that one of the things that we communicate here at Catholic Answers Live is that our Catholic faith allows us to be fully serious about all the problems we encounter in the church and in the world. But it also lets us have light hearts and maybe even mix in a bit of fun. And that is exactly what our good friend Joe Heschmeyer does in his popular podcast Shameless Potpourri. You should check it [e-mail] Joe's got a deep grasp of the faith, morals, the teachings of the Church, all that, but he's also got a witty conversational style. He entertains and he informs, but you will leave equipped to better answer the most common challenges, misconceptions and questions about the Catholic faith. He's got insightful guests he does on air debates, and he takes a close look into all the things that you want to know about as a Catholic living today. You'll walk away knowledgeable and filled with joy. Look for Joe on his YouTube channel. Check him [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you hear, become a patron.

[D]

What is the Catholic Church? Everyone seems to have an opinion, but the church never quite fits into the boxes people make for it. In the Faith Unboxed, author Andrew Petaprin looks at some of the most common boxes people put the Catholic Church in and explains why they don't fit in. Doing so, he brings us closer to what the church really the institution founded by Christ. Order the Faith unbox [e-mail] or ask for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you.

[C]

Matt Swaim here. Tomorrow on the Sunrise Morning show, we'll discuss an upcoming conference for Catholic medical professionals through the University of Mary. Plus news, weather, sports and more. Now back to CATHOLIC Answers Live.

[B]

Catholic Answers Live. Edgar Lujano filling in for Sy Kellets here. Two hours with William Albrecht on answering Orthodoxy. So like I said, I won't give the number out because we are full. Our lines are full. You know what? I'm going to save my questions for you later if time does open up, because I have a bunch of questions for you as well, but I don't want to keep the people waiting. And when from one friend, we go to another friend, Ari Ariana in Indiana. It's always good to hear from you, Ari.

[E]

Hi, hello, hello. God bless you guys for everything you guys are doing I hope you guys are doing well.

[B]

Doing great.

[C]

Doing great.

[E]

All right, so my question is. Sorry, so you're saying that the Orthodox have. I'm talking specific Oriental. Like, we. We all have sacraments and everything. But my question is mainly about the papacy. So if so, are you saying, like, the main difference is the papacy, so why is that such a huge deal? Like, why should we care whether they accept the papacy or they don't? Because technically, like you mentioned before, I mean, they have valid bish and all that. So it's like, so why is the papacy? And that's just. My main question is, like, why is the papacy such a big deal? And, like, why does that matter?

[C]

And your issue, and I'm glad that you brought it up, I am very happy. Is in reference to Oriental Orthodoxy in particular, Right?

[E]

Yes.

[C]

Okay, good. Thank you for that. Now, with Oriental Orthodoxy, it is quite different because a lot of them do accept the Immaculate Conception. A lot of them do accept our view of original sin. There are even some that have no issue with the filioquia, even though many deny it. And then there are a lot of them that even believe in purgatory. So I know Ari is very familiar with that. That is why she said, okay, there's one thing that does divide us with our Oriental Orthodox friends. And yes, you're right, it is a papacy. But that is an enormous hurdling block, because biblically, our Lord did not give the keys to a council. He didn't give the authority to the whole college without the head, and he didn't pray for all equality to strengthen the brethren. No. He picked one man. And we read that in the Bible. You are Peter. I give you the keys. I have prayed for you. Strengthen your brethren. Shepherd my sheep. Now, I know that our Oriental Orthodox friends are going to come back. I know, because you. I had a lot of them. They're going to say, hold on, all of the bishops have the keys, right? And that is official Catholic teaching. But singularly, one bishop was given those keys. And the only way to utilize those keys is to be in communion with the head. And if you reject the papacy, you reject. You're rejecting the very structure our Lord himself established. Ari. So it isn't a matter of. Well, you know, it's a tiny issue. No, it is a major issue because rejecting the papacy means that you reject doctrines that flow from it. And many councils, they do reject as well. Now, the other issue is many of them claim that we have deficient Christology. And I'd hopefully somebody calls and asks about that, I don't think we do at all. In fact, I think Chalcedon is a very shining height and example of Christology. But your question was in particular about the papacy. It is a very big deal they rejected because that is the divinely established principle of unity, and that is a guarantor or the guarantee, guarantor of doctrinal continuity. Ari, one more thing I want to add, and I want to add it for our Oriental friends. When we were united, we were still united with one another at the Council of Ephesus. There is language used there that indicates that the papacy was an office of supremacy, one of perpetuity, and one that would continue through the successors of Peter. And there at Ephesus, it recognized papal supremacy under Pope Celestine, meaning that our Oriental orthodox friends, if we follow the logic of believing that an ecumenical council is guided by the Holy Spirit, they have to answer as to why they don't follow that model today at an ecumenical council that they believe is binding and divine. There at that council, the council taught that the papacy would continue in perpetuity to the successors of the bishop of Rome. Well, they don't hold to that model today. And that, of course, I have to say, is problematic.

[B]

Ari?

[E]

Yes. Can I fight back on that a little bit?

[B]

Yeah, go ahead.

[E]

So I know a lot about Oriental they love to use, especially when it comes to scripture. One of their favorite ones is, I believe I'm probably gonna butcher this, but where it talks about, like, making disciples of, like, making disciples. And a lot of them like to refer to, like, the apostles, specifically when it comes to supporting their claim of, like, why, like, why they don't believe in the papacy. So, like, what would be your strong comeback for that? Because I. I know, you know, what the. What the arguments are in scripture that they try to use.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. No, they would agree with a lot. And that that is why it's very important that we're doing shows like this, because they agree with a lot of what we believe. Now we've got to show where are the areas where we diverge. And the one thing that I would say, Ari, is when we look in early church history, early fathers that they hold in common with us, meaning we've got to look at early Church fathers before the break. Now, when did that break occur? It depends who you talk to. They're going to tell you 449 or 451. 451, of course, is Calcedon. They don't hold the Calcedon 449. Is the Robber Council of Ephesus 2. Where did the break occur? Right around that time. But what do we tell them when they say, well, the Bible tells you this and this about Peter. We can agree. We agree with your interpretation. No, but one thing they don't agree with. Well, one thing that they should agree with, because it was taught at the Council of Ephesus. This. Let me read it for you, Ari. This was in 431, at a council that they hold to Peter down even to today and forever, both lives and judges and his successors. That is the perpetuity of an office. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine is his successor and holds his place. And he has sent us to supply his place in this senate. What that shows you, Ari, is an ontological continuity of an office. Peter is not just a past founder. Rather he lives and judges in his successors. This is present down to today and perpetual, Ari. Well, where is that perpetuity in Oriental Orthodoxy today? In an ecumenical council that they hold in very high esteem. Tells you the Pope will judge in perpetuity forever. I have got to say, they have not held up that Holy Spirit guided ecumenical council decree to this day, only Catholicism holds that up.

[E]

Okay, awesome. Thank you so much. I do appreciate this.

[B]

Thank you. Ari.

[C]

Was that helpful? Hope that was helpful.

[E]

Yes, that was helpful. Thank you so much. Thank you, Edgar. Thank you, William.

[B]

Thank you, Ari. Good to hear from you, Ari. All right, let's keep on going down the line because there's lots of calls. Let's go to Maria in Yorba Linda, California, also watching on YouTube. Maria, welcome to the show.

[F]

Hi, gentlemen. Thank you for taking my call. So a two part question. One of the biggest one and, well, not biggest, one of the differences, I think between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism and obviously Protestantism is the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception. Belief in those. And my question is why does this even matter in the large, in the big picture of Christianity? Why does. Yeah, why does this. Are you, to me, Are you like, okay, sorry. Yeah, yes, go ahead. Yes.

[C]

No, no, go ahead, tell me. You're. You're a Catholic.

[F]

I've never. So I'm a Catholic and I've never understood why this matters. And, and it's such a. And, and it's one of the things that is not bringing us together with Orthodoxy. And I've always wondered why this matters at all, because to me personally it doesn't matter. And because I guess maybe because I don't understand why it matters.

[C]

Okay, now it should matter to you a great deal. These are very essential teachings of, of Catholicism because these dogmas protect the identity of Christ. They. They're not Mary only doctrines. They are Christological and they are revealed to us in divine revelation. They tell us who Christ is and they tell us what salvation truly does. And they're very important. Now the one thing I would add is I recognize many of our Eastern friends do not believe in the Immaculate Conception, but it was taught from the very beginning. It is a logical conclusion of the Bible as well. If Holy Mary is a new ark of the new covenant, well then Holy Mary is all immaculate. And if Mary is full of grace the way the Bible tells you she is, well that means Mary has no sin. So the early fathers taught that as well. They taught that if Mary was preserved from original sin, that which she was, they would say she was preserved from original sin. And that was done so that Christ could take a perfect unfallen human nature. And the early fathers taught that from the earliest of times. But the other thing that I would add is the bodily assumption of Mary is a non negotiable in Orthodoxy. Now you mentioned that they don't believe in it. They most definitely do. That is one of the most important teachings that they uphold of Mary every year. In fact, they have the dormition fast of Holy Mother Mary every August. And they take it incredibly seriously. The other point I would add, even though many may not believe in the Immaculate Conception, within the liturgy of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, it is built into the faith to call Mary Panagia. Panagia means holy. She is all Holy. All Holy Pantagia as well. They'll call her all Holy and holy is in their liturgy. So within Orthodoxy there is a heavy emphasis on the all holiness of Mary and on the bodily assumption as well.

[B]

Maria.

[F]

Okay, so. So, yes, so yeah, so I got that wrong. Only, only one of those ideas is not held by Orthodoxy. So what you're. And then her perpetual virginity. I forgot to. I forgot to pop that in there too. Why, why that's important. And I don't know if you have time to answer that. So you're saying that, and I understand that, that Mary had to be a pure vessel to. To or Jesus.

[A]

But.

[F]

But again this could. So what you're saying is this could not have happened. Christ could not have been brought forth without Mary being in that state.

[C]

No, he could have. The dogma doesn't tell you that he couldn't have. I want to be very clear. The dogma doesn't tell you that. Many early fathers believe that that was a logical conclusion of it. But the dogma tells you quite plain and simply that Mary was conceived without original sin. Are we able to get that from the Bible? Most definitely. The Bible teaches Mary is a new ark. And if that old ark was crafted and created all perfect and all pure, and the Bible literally tells you that, and Mary is presented as a new ark, which she is, well, the logical conclusion is Mary is created, which is the conception all pure. And indeed, the Bible shows you she must because she is all full of grace. The Bible calls Mary full of grace in Luke 1:28. But the other issue I'd like to point out is why would we hold to this belief if it keeps us separated from anyone? Well, if anything is part of divine revelation revealed by God, we're not going to forget believing in it and we're not going to stop teaching it if it is biblical, if it is ancient, and if it is taught by the church, if our Eastern friends deny it, that is an unfortunate thing. As far as the perpetual virginity of Mary, every apostolic church believes that. All of them believe that.

[B]

Maria, thank you so much for your call. I have to leave it right there because it's time for the final break and with it we'll come back to more questions on Orthodoxy right here on Catholic Interest.

[C]

Let us help you with your question today on CATHOLIC Answers Live. The most original Catholic content is on EWTN Radio. See, in our lifetime, we cannot repay murder for murder, stealing for stealing. I have to, according to this book, I have to forgive my enemy. I have to pray for him.

[B]

I have to.

[D]

Mother Angelica. Live classics tomorrow night, 8 Eastern, on EWTN Television and radio.

[A]

Who was the first Catholic in your family? Were they evangelized by a friend, a co worker, a stranger?

[C]

Did you ever think that you could.

[A]

Be that person that God uses to save a soul and that soul could save their family, their grandchildren and generations to come? At St. Paul Street Evangelization, a Catholic nonprofit, we train, equip and mobilize Catholic disciples to do the urgent work of evangelization. Catholic Answers is supported in part by St. Paul Street Evangelization street evangelization.com.

[B]

Welcome back. Did you know [e-mail] every day is like Black Friday. We've gone and lowered prices. Store wide on the very, very best books you can give to any Catholic or more importantly, to someone who is considering the Catholic church. Come to shop.catholic.com and check out these deals. We have five books for $30. There's 26 different bundles that you can do the faithful five $10 each with free shipping. Dynamic duos, Bogo deals that will reveal your superpowers. Man, Kerry's really going hard on these ads. Isn and great Catholic gifts for everyone on your list. So what are you waiting for? Run, don't walk to shop.catholic.com today and load up on a great bargain store wide. I mean, hey, Black Friday's coming around. So what should you do? Get Catholic books and go send them to your friends, especially for Christmas, as it's coming around the corner. All right, William. Yeah, we're gonna keep running because there's plenty of people on the line and I want to get as many people on. And by the way, if you're still listening, there's lines open right now where there's three lines and we're doing a whole second hour. So don't fear, you're gonna get your question will get answered. So with them, we go over to the John. Not just any John, it's the John from Oklahoma. Who's listening on. I think it's Oklahoma Catholic Radio. I could be wrong on that. John, good to hear from you, my friend. It's always, it's always a pleasure.

[G]

Hey, how are you doing, guys? Thanks for taking my call.

[C]

Doing well.

[B]

Go ahead, John.

[I]

Good.

[G]

So question regarding the Eastern Orthodox Roman Catholicism, really, why does it matter at the end? Because we believe that both Catholics and Eastern Orthodox will be in heaven. So most Eastern Orthodox believers will not be Roman Catholics and vice versa. So, like, we'll be at heaven. What are we missing? You know, maybe not believing something's doctrine dogmas correctly or, you know what I'm saying, like, the end goal is we'll be in heaven.

[C]

Well, that is the goal and that is what we hope. But remember, brother, nowhere is that guaranteed. Our Lord demanded visible unity, not merely the idea of, oh, well, you know what? Maybe we're all going to be in heaven. No, Our Lord demanded visible unity. And remember, here's the important thing, brother John. The John Salvation is individual. That is one thing you need to remember. Salvation is individual. The church is communal. It is visible, and it must be one. And as I talked about earlier, it is a lamentable thing that I do not celebrate. Nobody here celebrates the fact that the body of Christ is wounded and we are not united. It is a sad thing. I'm on being honest with you because Christ commanded one visible, united church, not multiple ones. Our Lord, remember, our Lord didn't say, well, as long as individuals get to heaven, it's fine. No, our Lord prayed in John 17:21, one of my favorite ones. I like to go to Father that they may be one, so that the world may believe that unity is needed, my friend, because our Lord established one shepherding office, not two. And indeed it is important because our Lord gave one visible authority, and that is the Petrine office.

[G]

I understand that. But again, since, like I said, Eastern Orthodox believers will be in heaven the same way not every Catholic, not every Orthodox believer is not. Will be in heaven. So that's what I'm saying. Like.

[C]

But how do you know that they're going to be in heaven, though, Brother? Where is the guarantee that an Eastern Orthodox who is not united to the body will be in heaven? There is no guarantee for that. Indeed, all of us must finish a race. And if it is a grave wound, do not be united to the true Church, well, then you are in, in danger if you are not united to the true Church. There is nowhere where the Catholicism teaches that Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental, just by virtue of having valid holy orders, means that they're going to go to heaven. Now, we hope for that and we pray for that, but there is no teaching that says that all of them are going to get to heaven. We need to remember that the Church is not just a path to heaven, it is our Lord's mystical body. I think that might be the one thing maybe you're missing that the Church is. It's not a heaven delivery system. It is a continuation of Christ's presence, the pillar and foundation of truth and division tears the bride in two. Our Lord does not want a divided bride. And because partial communion is not the same as full communion, we know that they have valid sacraments, but they still lack the fullness. Now, we need to be very careful there. If heaven is what you're saying, well, heaven is where. Where they're going to get. Well. That is what we hope when we pray for. But there's no guarantee of that.

[G]

Well, there's no guarantee for anyone just because it doesn't mean.

[B]

Right. 100.

[C]

But that. But I tell you one thing, you're right. You need to finish a race. And part of running that race is being united to that one eucharistic table, not two. That's an important thing, that one eucharistic table. Imagine apostles at two tables, apostles with two bishops, apostles with two hierarchies contradicting one another. That would contradict the entire New Testament. The one Eucharist demands one church. And the Book of Ephesians letter to Ephesians tells us there is one Faith, there is one baptism. With that in mind, it matters a lot because Christ didn't simply come to get individual souls into heaven. He came to establish one visible church under one shepherd united in one faith. Now, yes, don't get me wrong, all of our orthodox friends can be saved, and we hope for that. But it is a grave danger to reject the papacy because our Lord instituted that. That is a divinely instituted office. Is heaven possible for all? Yeah, the key word possible. But unity under the normative circumstances is required by Christ for his church.

[B]

William, it almost seems like because they're not going to get to heaven because they specifically rejected the papacy would actually be. In some ways, it would be in spite of that because they've rejected that full unity that the church that Christ established in his church.

[C]

That is correct. They've rejected the normative unity. And that's a divinely instituted office, as we can clearly see from the Bible.

[B]

Edgar, Amen. All right. Well, thanks. Thank you, John, for that question. Let's go over to Paul in Youngstown, Ohio, listening on Living Bread Radio. Paul, thank you for your question. Go right ahead. Sorry. Go ahead.

[I]

Hi. On the issue of the filioque, I believe it's Pope Leo III who refused to put it in the Creed because he said the Creed was written by an ecumenical council and it could only be changed by an ecumenical council. And he inscribed plaques on the original St. Peter's Basilica, one in Latin, one in Greek, and both versions of the Creed did not have filialque in it. About 200 years later, in the 10 hundreds was when it was inserted, and it was kind of under the pressure of the Franks. And then after that, a lot of the differences really started to develop between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. So, I mean, we're not going to agree. But I just want to bring up those points.

[C]

Definitely not correct in terms of that. The differences began to arise after that. Definitely incorrect, because we're talking about the 800s, and we'll talk about Leo III in a moment because that definitely frequently gets brought up. But there are disagreements well before the 9th century. There are disagreements there at Chalcedon, where very clearly the papal supremacy is front and center. And there are clear parts, there are clear areas where Pope Leo, Pope Saint Leo the Great, pretty much strikes down requests from the East. So there are issues well before we get to the 9th century. But why did Leo not insert it? Now, the issue was not a doctrinal one. It was a prudential one. Leo was famous for believing and teaching the doctrine, but he did not want to insert it into the Creed at that particular time. But again, the issue was a prudential one. It was not a doctrinal one. I think that a lot of people tend to forget that Pope Leo III affirmatively taught the doctrine. He affirmed it as Orthodox doctrine. Tiny O. He praised it as true to Augustinian theology. And there's another issue. Augustine taught the filioque. Great Eastern Fathers taught the filioque. That is a big problem for the Orthodox. If Augustine taught it, which he did, that man there is venerated as one of the greatest teachers of all Christendom, and he's venerated by the Orthodox in ecumenical councils. Well, if that man taught the filioqui, well, what does that tell us? And he's venerated as a Titan of the Trinity. That, to me, is very, very important to put forth and to. To really, really point out.

[I]

Well, Scripture doesn't imply the filioque. Scripture says the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father Christ promises to send by way of mediation.

[C]

Yeah, unfortunately, yeah, that is not true. Because if we look in the Book of Revelation, we can clearly see that the filioque is taught there. And in fact, the filioque is shown to be the Holy Spirit there that proceeds from the throne of God and of the Lamb and is the Holy Spirit. And we see that vision in Revelation 22:1, where St. John in heaven sees the throne of God and of the Lamb. But then look at what we read. John says, and I've just opened it up. The Spirit and the bride say, come. The Spirit proceeds from the joint throne. When it says, spirit and bride, come. Notice how the Spirit proceeds from the joint throne of God the Father and the Lamb the Son. That Holy Spirit is the fountain of living waters. That is the most ancient interpretation of Revelation 22. Because the throne of God, the Lamb, the Spirit is proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb, meaning that that is the filioquy right there, present in the Bible. Here's the other thing. I know the argument with the Eastern Orthodoxy, primarily, the Orthodox will argue for what they call an economic procession. But, my friend, this is not economic in any way. How could it be? If this is a heavenly vision, this is eternal. Because if it was economic, this was. It wouldn't fit in with the very theology of this being in heaven. And the Holy Spirit is proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. That is a filioque right there. And that's the Trinitarian vision.

[I]

My Spirit eternally rests in the sun, but he's eternally. His origin is eternally from the Father, eternally resting in the Son, and then in that sense, you could say coming through both. But if you look at the baptism of Christ in the Jordan, you see the Father speaks when the Son comes up from the water and the Spirit descends from the Father.

[C]

Right. But I didn't use that passage. I recognized that that passage would be an economic vision. There's no doubt about that. But in terms of this passage, this is, this is in heaven. This is very clearly eternal. There's no doubt about it.

[B]

Paul, sorry we have to cut the questions short there because it's time for the big break here that we can't pass. So thanks for your call. Paul, give us a call in the future. We'd love to continue the conversation. When we come back, we're going to continue More Questions or More Answers on Orthodoxy with William Altbrecht. So if you have a question, give us a call. There are a few lines open. We'd love to take them. 888-318-7884. That's triple 831 truth. Let me repeat it one more time because I want to make sure we get as many callers as possible. That's 888-318-7884. When we come back, More Questions with William Albrecht right here on Catholic Answers Live.