#12464 Can We Hire Psychics for Missing Persons and Other Teachings? - Karlo Broussard

Summary

Catholic Answers Live – Episode #12464

Can We Hire Psychics for Missing Persons and Other Teachings?
Guest: Dr. Karlo Broussard
Host: Thomas Graff
Date: November 19, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode of Catholic Answers Live explores deeply challenging questions about Catholic doctrine and spirituality, framed by live audience calls. Dr. Karlo Broussard, staff apologist and author, takes thoughtful, thorough, and pastorally sensitive questions about difficult spiritual phenomena, Marian devotion, predestination, purgatory, and salvation outside the Church. The episode’s main theme: clarifying Catholic teaching on controversial or confusing points—especially responses to spiritual suffering, proper Marian titles, and how the Church understands predestination and other hotly debated doctrines.

---

Key Questions & Discussions

---

1. The Effectiveness of Sacramentals, Spiritual Suffering & Haunted Houses

Caller: Samuel (Columbus, OH)
Timestamp: 01:36 – 10:52

Samuel's Story & Question

• Samuel, 71, recounts moving into a house where two murders occurred and experiencing what he identifies as possible demonic activity (auditory phenomena, sense of evil). Despite sacraments, frequent prayers, house blessings, psychiatric help, and deep devotional life, he experiences persistent spiritual darkness and mental health challenges.
• Core Question: “How effective can sacramentals be if I continue on the same path to where every day, and I don't mean once in a while, every day it feels like I want to give up?” (03:34)

Dr. Broussard’s Response

• Solidarity and Encouragement: Acknowledges Samuel’s cross; encourages to not give up seeking both medical and spiritual help.
• On Efficacy of Sacramentals:
  • Sacramentals may not “work” in an external, empirical way (e.g., haunted activity resolves, or he feels relief), but they always bear spiritual fruit—often invisible.
  • Quote: “There is no act of love that goes wanting, no act of love that is futile or lacking in fruits... you can be at peace... that God will bring about these spiritual fruits within you.” (05:03)
• God’s Action is Often Hidden: The growth in holiness may be internal, unseen even by the one suffering.
• Practical Advice:
  • Recommends seeking assistance from a diocesan exorcist, given persistence of disturbing phenomena.
  • Reiterates: perseverance in faith is itself evidence of God’s grace.

On Ghosts, Purgatory, and Spiritual Phenomena

• Can souls manifest after death?
  • Yes, Catholic tradition (e.g., mystics) acknowledges this as a possibility, but it’s rare and subject to God’s providence.
  • However, most “frivolous” activity (e.g., repeated disturbances) is more likely demonic, not souls from purgatory seeking prayers.
• Actionable Advice:
  • Regardless of the cause, “take it as a prompt to pray for the departed souls of those individuals. And that, Samuel, is yet another act of love, act of love of neighbor, which can help you grow in holiness...” (10:33)

---

2. Predestination, Grace, and the Catholic/Thomist vs. Calvinist Debate

Caller: Stephen (North Carolina)
Timestamp: 14:35 – 25:12

Stephen’s Question:

• Struggling to understand Thomas Aquinas’ teaching on predestination (“ante praevisa merita”—before foreseen merits), dealing with how this resembles Calvinist unconditional election, and reconciling this with the Church’s condemnation of Calvinism and the assertion that no one is predestined to hell.

Dr. Broussard’s Response:

• Key Distinction—Calvinist vs. Thomist View:
  • Calvinism: God actively causes the reprobate’s damnation.
  • Thomism: God permits damnation; damnation as such is always a result of the soul’s free choice against God, not God’s direct causality.
  • Quote: “The effect of damnation will be entirely due to the causality of the will choosing against divine charity and not in any way due to the divine causality.” (17:12)
  • “God’s permission is a sine qua non, that without which you cannot have sin to begin with...” (18:09)
• Justice of God:
  • The grace of final perseverance (dying in friendship with God) isn’t owed to anyone; God’s not unjust in permitting some to die without it.
• On Sufficient vs. Efficacious Grace:
  • All receive sufficient grace in the order of providence; grace towards final salvation (efficacious grace) is given to some without injustice to those who do not receive it.
• Resource Recommendation:
  • Taylor Patrick O’Neill, Grace, Predestination and the Permission of Sin. (25:12)
• Practical Implication:
  • “Damnation is really truly a result of the individual choosing against God. The power to get to heaven was given to him, and he really uses will to thwart the directionality of that sufficient grace, which is salvation...” (23:50)

---

3. Marian Titles: Responding to SSPX Objections to ‘Mater Populi Fidelis’ Document

Caller: Vince (British Columbia)
Timestamp: 29:27 – 37:20

Vince’s Question & Summary

• Involved in a catechism group with many Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) members. After the Vatican’s Mater Populi Fidelis document, SSPX leaders called for reparation for what they see as an “offense” against Mary (discontinuing use of some old Marian titles).
• Vince, having read the actual document, feels it’s beautiful and exalting of Mary, and is puzzled by the SSPX’s reaction.

Dr. Broussard’s Response

• First Recommendation:
  • “My only recommendation…ask them, have you read the document?” (30:52)
• Content vs. Terminology:
  • The Church is not rejecting the theology, only being cautious about confusing or misunderstood terms (like Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix of all Graces).
• On Discontinuing Titles (Co-Redemptrix, etc.):
  • The concern: such titles risk eclipsing Christ’s unique mediatorship, “can therefore create confusion and an imbalance of the harmony of the truths of the Christian faith.” (34:52)
  • Mary’s role is unique and exalted—her “yes,” unity at the Cross, intercession—but not on par with Christ’s unique redemption.
• Key Point:
  • “[Mary] is not the mediator of redemption of the human race. And that’s what the document articulates. And if your friends have a problem with that, well, then we’re going to have to jump back to square one as to what the redemption is and who’s the agent...” (35:25)
• On Mediation of Graces:
  • Mary intercedes for all graces but doesn’t “give grace” as an agent cause—only God does that.

---

4. Purgatory at the End of Time

Caller: Vicki (Oshkosh, Wisconsin)
Timestamp: 37:57 – 41:56

Vicki’s Question:

• What happens to the souls in purgatory and those living with some attachment to sin if Jesus returns and establishes the new heavens and earth?

Dr. Broussard’s Response:

• Not Definitive Teaching—Speculative Theology:
  • At the second coming, “those souls in purgatory would…come to a completion of their final purification at that moment…” (38:39)
  • For living souls needing purification: their purification would be “instantaneous,” not durational.
  • “Whatever is lacking in the duration of purification can be made up for in the intensity of purification.” (41:32)

---

5. Logical Grounds for Faith in Jesus’ Divinity

Caller: AJ (Quad Cities, Iowa)
Timestamp: 45:05 – 51:52

AJ’s Question:

• Logical-minded Catholic, sometimes struggles with doubts. Seeks logical, rational arguments for Jesus’ divinity—beyond the sincerity of apostles, which could also apply to other faiths.

Dr. Broussard’s Response:

• C.S. Lewis’ Trilemma (Liar, Lunatic, Lord):
  • Establishes need to trust historical reliability of New Testament.
  • Jesus is not a liar (no motive, apostles had nothing to gain, willingness to suffer and die).
  • Not a lunatic: “If there’s enough historical evidence to lead us to the conclusion that Jesus is a wise teacher, well, then it logically follows that he’s wise enough to know who he is.” (46:52)
  • “He beat the most intellectually sophisticated members of his community…That tells me that Jesus ain’t no lunatic.”
• Miracles & Resurrection:
  • “The ultimate reason…why we know Jesus is who he says he is…is, number one, his miracles, and then number two, the greatest miracle being his resurrection.” (50:25)
• Resource:
  • A Case for Christ by Dr. Brant Pitre

---

6. Salvation Outside the Catholic Church/Invincible Ignorance

Caller: Timothy (Vancouver, Washington)
Timestamp: 52:30 – 54:26

Timothy’s Question:

• Is it true the Catholic Church teaches that anyone who's aware of the Catholic Church but doesn't join it goes to hell?

Dr. Broussard’s Response:

• Depends on what “aware” means.
  • Simply having knowledge of the Church doesn’t mean automatic condemnation.
  • If someone knows the Church is established by Christ and willfully rejects it, then final impenitence can result in hell.
  • Those unaware or ignorant may be “invincibly ignorant”—not at fault and not held culpable.
  • “We are not saying if you’re not Catholic, you’re going to hell, but with the proper nuancing and conditions met, we can have a proper understanding.” (54:18)

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Sacramentals & Hidden Grace:
  “No act of love goes wanting…The fruits may not very well be external yet. But…I can promise you…those acts of love…increase grace, and help you ascend the heights of sanctity…” —Dr. Broussard, 05:03

• On God’s Permission in Sin & Predestination:
  “God’s permission is a sine qua non, that without which you cannot have sin to begin with…if God does not permit it, he would be causing reality, being, goodness, which means the individual would be choosing God.” —Dr. Broussard, 18:09

• On Marian Titles:
  “Holy Mother Church is just saying we’re not going to use this lingo anymore because of the potential confusion…given our circumstances of the day.” —Dr. Broussard, 33:55

• On Jesus, Liar/Lunatic/Lord:
  “He beat the most intellectually sophisticated members of his community at their intellectual games…that tells me that Jesus ain’t no lunatic.”—Dr. Broussard, 47:39

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:36 — Samuel’s story of spiritual attacks and sacraments
• 03:34 — “How effective can sacramentals be…every day it feels like I want to give up?”
• 08:11 — Ghosts, purgatory, and spiritual manifestations
• 14:35 — Stephen’s question on Thomist predestination
• 17:12 — Distinguishing Calvinist and Catholic views of reprobation
• 21:54 — Sufficient grace and free will
• 25:12 — Resource recommendation: Taylor Patrick O’Neill’s book
• 29:27 — Vince asks about Marian titles controversy
• 34:52 — Risks of confusion with “Co-Redemptrix”
• 37:57 — Vicki’s purgatory-at-end-of-time question
• 45:05 — AJ’s quest for a rational case for Jesus’ divinity
• 50:25 — Miracles and the resurrection as proof
• 52:30 — Clarifying “No salvation outside the Church”

---

Summary & Takeaway

This episode offers thoughtful, nuanced apologetics on tough issues: the invisible but certain effects of sacramentals and suffering, predestination without Calvinist determinism, why certain Marian titles cause concern, purgatory’s end-times role, intellectual faith in Christ, and salvation’s boundaries. Dr. Broussard keeps a consistently pastoral, scholarly, and practical tone, welcoming both deeply felt spiritual suffering and rigorous theological questions.

---

For resources mentioned, visit:

• Catholic.com – Predestination and related topics
• Taylor Patrick O’Neill, Grace, Predestination and the Permission of Sin
• Brant Pitre, A Case for Christ
• Dr. Broussard’s books, e.g., Purgatory is For Real

---

Next Up: Ask Me Anything with Joe Heshmeyer

---

Transcript

[Announcer]

Buying or selling your home. Real Estate for Life can connect you with a pro life real estate agent. When Real Estate for Life receives a referral fee, they donate 65% to Catholic Answers. Learn more at realestateforlife.org.

[Thomas Graff]

Welcome back to CATHOLIC ANSWERS Live. One hour down, another hour to go. Of which Catholic doctrine troubles you? I am your host, Thomas Graff. I'm filling in for Psy Kellett today and tomorrow until he returns from his travels. And with us as our guest is our very own staff apologist, our very own PhD our very own author of books so such as Baptism Now Saves you, the Saints Pray for you, Purgatory is for Real and a whole lot of others. It is the one and only Dr. Carlo Broussard. Carlo, thanks so much for your great answers in your first hour. Do you think he can live up to it in the second hour?

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Well, I don't know. That will be up to the Lord whether or not he wills to give me the graces or not. So we shall see.

[Thomas Graff]

And it will be up to the callers to see if they will to give us questions that will tee you up for those world class answers we're so used to. So Samuel, I hope you have the the question to make Carlos sound really, really good. Samuel is calling from Columbus, Ohio. He's going to kick us off this hour from St. Gabriel radio. Samuel, you are now on the air. Go ahead with your question for Carla Broussard.

[Samuel]

Thank you very much. I really feel bad when I heard Raymond. I don't know how old he is, but, but I'm 71. And there was a time when I was always crying like he was and choked up. I've adjusted. My question isn't about the sacraments, but it is about the sacramentals. Years ago I lived in a house. Two people were murdered in the house. There were six people in my family. Four people moved out because of hearing ghost and having fear. So I went to the priest. He blessed the house. Nothing got better. I got really worse, suicidal. Twice in the last 25 years, I've joined the Knights of Columbus. I've joined the Mercedarian Order. I've prayed at least three times a day. The rosary. I listened to the priest at 9:30 on this radio station and Father Schmitz for Bible study. And like Raymond, but no, unlike Raymond, I'm still keeping the faith. But I'm not able to run the race or fight the fight like I used to. Because when you said that God is not bound by the sacraments, it seems like the devil certainly isn't afraid of the sacramentals because nothing improved in the house and I haven't improved very much myself. I've tried every antidepressant, every anti anxiety drug. Nothing works. The medical profession didn't really help my faith. I'm certainly not able to say it's getting worse, hoping it's just going to get better.

[Vince]

So.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Right.

[Samuel]

My question is how effective can Sacramento's be if I continue on the same path to where every day, and I don't mean once in a while, every day it feels like I want to give up.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah. So first of all, I'm sorry Samuel, that you're having to endure this situation in your life concerning the house itself, with the blessings and seemingly no benefits, nothing getting better. I'm sorry that you're having to endure this cross because it is indeed a cross. My first thought, Samuel, is please don't give up on the medical professionals and helping you out with the psychological conditions that you've been experiencing. Don't give up on that. Continue to pursue that because God indeed does will to work our natural healing and bring about natural healing through natural means such as medicine and doctors and their expertise. But of course that is not meant to take the place of the spiritual tools that we need to use. As well as you seem to be articulating, you're using them. Sacramentals, prayer, sacraments, Holy communion, sacrament of reconciliation, and getting priests to come and bless the home. These are all important to continue doing, Samuel. Now I'm going to focus on the particular question that the sacramentals that you're utilizing, the prayers that you're praying, just don't seem to be working well, Samuel, they might not be working in the way that you think they should work, namely some concrete, specific fruit that would come about like the home itself, no longer having the having, no longer having the experiences in the home, or you getting better with your medical condition, psychological condition. Know this Samuel, any There is no act of love that goes wanting, no act of love that is futile or lacking in fruits. The fruits may not very well be external yet. But I can promise you, Samuel, that when you perform those acts of love, to pray to God, to make acts of faith in God despite the trials that you're experiencing, that, my friend, increases in inner strength within you, increases grace, and helps you ascend the heights of sanctity or holiness, which thereby gives you a deeper friendship and relationship with the Lord, that is worth it, Samuel. That is an effect that although you might not perceive or sense it in your emotional experiences and your bodily sensations, you can know by, through the lens, through the eyes of faith, Samuel, that those effects are real within your soul. And you can rest in that. You can be at peace in that you can rejoice and delight in that knowledge of knowing that God will bring about these spiritual fruits within you. Just the fact that you're calling today, Samuel, is a sign of God's grace working within you despite the difficulties that you face. It could have been the case that the difficulties lead you to not even call. Catholic answers lie because you don't want anything to do with it but your calling. And so that's a grace, Samuel, that he's giving you to persevere in faith, in the relationship with the Lord, despite not having the physical effects of the emotional consolation and maybe even the effects of peace within the home. Concerning those issues. Concerning those issues, I would recommend to inquire with your diocesan office to maybe try and find the diocesan exorcist to come and pray an exorcism within your home, and that would take care of it. But the sacramentals, the acts of faith and prayer and the sacraments, those are all indeed having effects within you spiritually, Samuel, even though you might not be able to see the physical, sensible effects. So hopefully there's something in there that I said that can give you some hope to persevere moving forward in this difficult time of yours, Samuel.

[Thomas Graff]

Does that help you out?

[Samuel]

You said earlier that we can pray for souls in purgatory. But my question is, I was also told by the priest that ghost, which I never saw, but others did, but I felt an evil presence. I was told ghosts are released souls from purgatory of the two innocent people that were killed in the house.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Okay, all right. So let me. Well, let me just offer a few thoughts in response. So is it, here's the first question. Is it possible that departed souls by God's providence can visibly manifest themselves to people here on earth and even engage in conversation with them? Answer, Yes, I know Jimmy Akin. I can't remember the episode in his mysterious world, but I know Jimmy Akin has done some episodes for his podcast Mysterious World, Jimmy Akin's Mysterious World on this issue. But we also have the mystics throughout the Catholic tradition who have attested to this fact of departed souls appearing and engaging in conversations with some of the saints. So, yes, it is possible. Second question is, is it possible that the specific departed souls of those two individuals who died in the house are manifesting themselves? That's a possibility. But with regard to frivolous activity and such circumstances as this. Samuel, I'm not a demonologist, but it is my general understanding that such frivolous activity is normally and ordinarily due to some sort of demonic activity. This is why I said, Samuel, that you need to approach the diocesan office and begin inquiring to perhaps get an exorcist to come and pray an exorcism within your home. So that's how I would answer those questions pertaining to that issue. Is it can departed souls manifest themselves? Yes. Is this an instance of those deported souls manifesting themselves? I do not know, but my hunch is that is probably more of demonic activity rather than a departed soul trying to get your attention to pray for them. But with that said, regardless of what is the cause of this phenomenon within the home, Samuel, I would take it as a prompt to pray for the departed souls of those individuals. And that, Samuel, is yet another act of love, act of love of neighbor, which can help you grow in holiness, my friend.

[Thomas Graff]

Thank you very much for that call, Samuel. I hope we were able to help you out. And yeah, definitely take this up with your local priests and maybe with the Bishop's office as well. If it's getting as crazy as it sounds like it is. That's always good advice. But thank you for calling us. And please do call again if you have anything else that you'd like to hear from us that's going to take us to our first break. Before we go to that, I do want to let you know that we are having the ultimate Buy one Get one Flash sale this week. Tuesday through Thursday, Tuesdays, Today, Thursdays and two days through midnight on Thursday, November 20th. If you go to shop.catholic.com, you will find that we are literally giving resources away with this ultimate buy one get one sale. You visit the ultimate BOGO category on shop.catholic.com find over 450 of our resources available there. Shop around. You find any two items and place them in your cart and you will get the lower priced item for free. No promo code needed. Just shop around. Shop, shop shop. For every multiple of two that you get, half of those are free. Buy four items, you get two of them for free and on and on. That special will not last very long. Again, as I said, it's today, Tuesday through Thursday. Midnight on Thursday, November 20th. Shop the ultimate BOGO category at shop.catholic.com and take advantage of this huge sale. We will be right back to continue with more of which Catholic doctrine troubles you right after this.

[Announcer]

Your Questions Catholic Answers Live St. Carlo Acutis shared a dream in which Sister Lucia appeared to him, saying the First Saturday Devotion could change the destiny of the world. The Blue army of Our lady of Fatima invites you to practice this Devotion. Join a First Saturday virtual pilgrimage beginning December 6th. Experience spiritual meditations while traveling virtually through Portugal and Spain to 12 sacred sites tied to the Fatima story. Track your journey with a passport and stamps. Visit bluearmy.com and select First Saturday Pilgrimage to learn more. Sponsored by our Ladies Blue Army. Underwriting for Catholic Answers Live is provided.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

By Real Estate for Life.

[Announcer]

Real Estate for Life connects homebuyers and sellers to real estate agents while supporting pro life organizations. On the [e-mail].

[Thomas Graff]

This is Jim Pinto, director of EWTN Media Missionaries. Mother Angelica said the essence of evangelization is to tell everybody Jesus loves you. You can help EWTN share the good news by becoming a Media Missionary. Visit ewtnmissionaries.com today and join us in sharing the eternal word with the. Welcome back to Catholic Answers Live. We have all lines full right now. Lots of people want to call and tell us which Catholic doctrine troubles them. If a line opens up, then you might be able to slip in if you call 8883-187884-88831 Truth. And here with us to answer those questions and walk our callers through the Catholic doctrines that Trouble them is Dr. Carla Broussard, staff apologist, speaker and author. And for this next caller, quite appropriately enough, I would say Carlo is probably the biggest Thomist on staff. And our caller, Steven from North Carolina has a question about some of Thomas Aquinas theology. So Stephen, you are on the air. Go right ahead with your question.

[Stephen]

Hi, yeah, sorry, this is my first time calling in. I wanted to make sure you could hear me.

[Thomas Graff]

No worries, we got you.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Awesome.

[Stephen]

Perfect. Yeah. So I was, I was baptized Catholic and did my first communion and I left the Catholic Church for a while as a kid, came back and now I'm finally, you know, back in OCIA classes trying to delve deep into theology and learn more. I think the thing that's been bothering me sort of recently is I'm sort of struggling to understand the Thomas teaching, one of the acceptable Catholic Thomas teachings on predestination, especially the idea of it being ante provese merita, you know, being before seen merits. This seems to me at least in outline as close to Calvinist unconditional election. And the only distinction that I could see is that God merely passes over the reprobate rather than actively damning them to hell, which again, like, I'm just trying to understand that. I think I'm missing something because it just feels like fancy wording, like, oh, God doesn't directly send them to hell, but he does pass over them. And then, yeah, again, more with the, the Thomas idea of, well, everyone's given sufficient grace. Everyone is given the real power to accept God in the same way that a fire can cook something, but without efficacious grace, they can't truly accept God, which again, these things seem like unconditional election, limited atonement to me. So it just feels like a softer Calvinism. And I think I'm missing something because I can't understand how the Church could condemn Calvinism. And then in the Council of Orange and the Council of Trent, say that no one's predestined to hell and then have this like, same language. I just can't reconcile it quite.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah, so let's see if I can offer some help here. So with regard to Calvin's view of predestination, I'm sure, as you already know, the effect of damnation is going to be a direct result of, of the divine causality of God positively willing the individual to be damned, such that the effect of damnation is not a result only of the individual's sin, but rather primarily efficaciously, of God causing the individual to sin and thereby die in a reprobate state. Calvin articulates this idea of God positively causing the will even in sin in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 18. God bends them to execute his judgments, whereas in the Thomist view, the effect of damnation will be entirely due to the causality of the will choosing against divine charity and not in any way due to the divine causality. When we, as in the Thomas tradition, when we, when God, when we ask, well, what is God's role in this end result of somebody being damned? It is simply the permissive will of God where God permits. And this is based upon a prior understanding of the metaphysics of divinity. Stephen, where if there is being, if there is actuality, God's causing it, wherever there is no being, God's not causing it. So in order, God's permission is a sine qua non, that without which you cannot have sin to begin with. So that's where the Thomas is starting from. In order for there to even be an abuse of free will and directing away of one person from God as his divine in and rejecting charity and whatnot or mortal sin is if God permits it. Because on the prior metaphysics, if God does not permit it, he would be causing reality being goodness, which means the individual would be choosing God. And so it is true that from all eternity God will to permit some to end in final reprobation, which is not an injustice on the part of God, because the grace to die in final friendship with God is something over and above our nature which is not due to us. So there's no injustice on God's part to not give the gift of final perseverance. So for God to permit someone to die in a state of reprobation without the grace of final perseverance is in no way a mark against God's justice or goodness, because that grace is not due to anyone. And if someone dies in final perseverance in friendship with God, the Thomas view is articulating that in a way such that that is the result not only of the individual's will willing it, but also God causing it in a supernatural way through grace, such that the individual who dies in friendship with Christ cannot boast in himself, but only in the grace of God. And that paradigm of God's permission of some to die in a state of reprobation and God's willing some by grace to die in friendship with him is known from all eternity. And that is that permission of sin and even the causing of the goodness to die in friendship with God is prior to any sort of merit on the part of the individual concerning the good, the line of the good, and even prior to any sort of demerit in the line of the evil. And this, as Aquinas would say, is a great mystery to where we have to bow in humility and the knowledge of why God would will in this sort of providence to permit some to die in final impenitence, rather than having a universalist view or order of providence, and willing some to die in friendship and thereby go to heaven. That's in the mystery of the divine will, which we will not know the ratio or the reason for this order of providence until we get on the other side in the beatific vision. But the distinction here with Calvin is that the damnation in the Thomist view is a result solely of of the will of the individual rejecting God or committing mortal sin. Whereas in the Calvinist view, damnation is a result of not only the will rejecting God through mortal sin, but God positively causing the will to sin. Whereas in the Thomas tradition, that's merely God's permission, which is a sine qua non, that without which there could be no sin, and that is indeed known from all eternity. So there's overlap between the two positions. So I don't know, am I hitting the target here? Am I offering any bit of clarity? What are your thoughts?

[Stephen]

That starts to make a little sense. I mean, honestly, I think you seem very knowledgeable on it. It's an extremely complex topic, so I definitely have to continue reading more into it. Do you have any sort of, like, resources or anything that you would suggest. Yes, that might sort of.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Allow me.

[Stephen]

I understand that at some point there's. There's this sort of mystery to it that we're not going to understand, but I want to see how much I can get my head around it.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yes. So I'm trying to remember. Let's see if I can pull it up here. It's a title. It's God. It's God.

[Thomas Graff]

Are you looking for an article you might have on Catholic.com about. No, it's.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

It's a book. It's a book by man. I can't even remember the author's name. Okay, so here, here's the deal. I can't believe I can't remember. It's God. God, Providence and the permission of evil, I think. But I tell you what, go ahead and stay on the line, Stephen. We're going to get your address and contact info, maybe an email and we can reach out to you. And I'm going to send you a resource that I think would be very beneficial to this topic and. Oh, yeah, Taylor Patrick o'. Neill. There it is. Taylor Patrick o'. Neill. And the book, I think is entitled God, Providence and the Permission of Evil. But if you look up Taylor Patrick o' Neill predestination, it should come up. But still, I would like to correspond with you. Now I will say this one last point, Stephen. You brought up the idea of sufficient power to accept God. This. It is important to note that within the Thomas position it is true that in this order of providence, given the supposition that God has created us for a supernatural end, which is the beatific vision, there is an order that we have supernaturally to the supernatural end, which entails that God give all a real potency, to use the metaphysical language, a supernatural, real power to be able to achieve salvation. The question then becomes, is God bound to actualize that power for every single human being, such as the case of universalism, or is God not bound? And if God is not bound, well, then he would be perfectly just and it would be consistent with his goodness to at least. At least permit some to not actualize that power, that is to say, to permit some to choose in such a way that thwarts the directionality, the goal orientedness, the design of that sufficient grace, which is order toward heaven, so we can really thwart that order and impede us achieving heaven, such that God is not giving us the grace to actualize the power on account of us choosing against the sufficient grace. And so that's very important to get on the table here when we're articulating the Thomas position, because in that case, on that paradigm, this is why we can say that damnation is really truly a result of the individual choosing against God. The power to get to heaven was given to him, and he really uses will to thwart the directionality of that sufficient grace, which is salvation, and thereby damnation, not salvation being a result of his abuse of free will.

[Thomas Graff]

Stephen, thank you so much for that question and for that great conversation you kicked off. I do hope you call back again. And Carlo, I did a little Googling. I think the book you were trying to think of by Dr. O' Neill was titled Grace, Predestination and the Permission of Sin.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Is that the one? That's it, man. I couldn't get the theological concepts in order there. So thank you for doing that research for me.

[Thomas Graff]

That title's a mouthful. And yeah, you could play Mad Libs with all those nouns and swap in any other number of Catholic doctrines and have a whole other book. Grace, Predestination, the Permission of Sin is what you were talking about. And then also for Stephen and our listeners who want to maybe not quite go into a scholarly treatment like that one, if you do, just search predestination on Catholic.com that will pull up a whole lot of pieces of content about this, an inordinate number of which feature Dr. Carla Broussard talking about this. So these are kind of his stomping grounds on Catholic.com so again, yeah, just search Stephen and our listeners search predestination on Catholic.com if you want to hear Carlo go in even more detail about all this and some of our other apologists as well. That takes us to the halfway point of this hour of which Catholic doctrine troubles you. We will be back to take more of your questions right after this.

[Promotional Voice]

Why do Catholics pray to dead people, bow to statues, venerate relics? And where do we find any of this stuff in the Bible? In the delightful book the Saints pray for your, Dr. Carlo Broussard convincingly defends the ancient Christian belief rooted in Scripture, that the saints care for us that they are allies. Order your copy of the Saints Pray for your [e-mail] or ask for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you.

[Announcer]

What was the Church like in its infancy? In a word, Catholic, and Joe Heschmeyer has the receipts. In his bestselling book, the Early Church Was the Catholic Church. He gives you the details from the historical records of the first two centuries of Christianity. Right now, get a copy for just $10 plus free shipping. If you live in the continental United States, get more information and order the early Church was the Catholic church@the earlychurchwascatholic.com.

[Promotional Voice]

When the resurrected Jesus appeared to disciples on the road to Emmaus. They didn't recognize him until the breaking of the bread. The same is true today in the Holy Eucharist. We really meet Jesus in the Eucharist is really Jesus. Author Joe Heschmeyer explains how knowing Jesus in the Eucharist is the key to understanding all of Christian faith. Order your copy of the Eucharist Is Really Jesus today@shop catholic.com or get it at a good Catholic bookstore near you. Throughout history, some Catholics have been among the worst kind of villains, right? Or were they in cancelled? Historian Steve Weidenkopf digs into the lives and controversies of some of these Catholics whose reputations have been blackened, often unfairly. He takes on the anti Catholic versions of history and defends not only these figures, but the faith they represent. Order your copy of canceled [e-mail] or ask for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you.

[Thomas Graff]

Matt Swaim here. Tomorrow on the Sunrise Morning show, we'll talk to Bishop Frank Schuster from the Apostleship of the Sea, plus all the latest news, weather, sports and a whole lot more. Now back to CATHOLIC Answers Live. Welcome back to CATHOLIC Answers Live. We have two lines open for you to call us and tell us what Catholic doctrine troubles you. 888-318-7884 is the number to call. 888-318-7884. My name is Thomas Graff. I'm filling in for Cy Kellett, our normal host on this show. I'll be filling in for the rest of today and for tomorrow until Cy returns from his travels. Until then, you're stuck with me and fortunately we have callers who call Dr. Carlo Broussard and ask him questions and so he gets to answer them instead of me. So I will step out of the way for our next caller, calling from north of the border in British Columbia. Vince, you are on the air with Dr. Carlo Broussard, go ahead with your question.

[Vince]

Good evening, gentlemen. Thanks for taking my call.

[Thomas Graff]

Thanks for calling, Vince. Go ahead.

[Vince]

So I'm part of a. I'm part of a catechism group that involves quite a few societies, Pius X members, and it's really just beautiful people, all in love with their faith. Faith on snake stock. Though, a memo got sent out that we're praying a decade of the Rosary in reparation for the great dishonorment that happened to Mary with this little latest papal note from the Castry of Doctrine and Faith. So that prompted me to read the document, okay? And, man, this document just. I just thought, wow, this is amazing. This is what I want to give every Protestant that I know because it was just so glorifying to the Mother of God. So then I read The Society of St. Pius X website, and it says that this document dethrones Mary and makes her pretty much a commoner. And it's just this big scandal in the church. So how do I. How do I respond to these society people? I mean, and this is. The head of their order said last Sunday's Mass was all for this reparation and that everyone should pray for this reparation.

[Stephen]

It just.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Just.

[Vince]

It's just crazy to me.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah, yeah, Vince. So first of all, I sympathize with your frustration here and, like, what's going on, because as you've just explained, you read the document and it moved your heart, like you saw in the theological rationale of Our Lady's role within salvation history, a beautiful articulation of it, and it made you rejoice. So with regard to the practical strategies of talking to your SSPX friends, my only recommendation there, Vince, would be, first of all, to ask them, have you read the document? That was going to be my first question to you. I was going to ask you, did you read the document? By the way, for our listeners, we're talking about Mater Populi Fidelis, Mother of the faithful, People of God. And I'm sure everybody listening is familiar with what that document involves. So that would be my first. I think that would be my first recommendation. Just ask them, have you read the document? And if they say no, Then you can follow up and say, well, how about you go and read the document yourself, read it carefully and prayerfully, and then come back and we'll have a conversation about it. If they say, yes, I read the document, then just honestly ask them, okay, well, which parts did you have a problem with? Which parts of the document do you think, Quote unquote, the Dethrone Mary, or take away from her dignity and glory within this order of Providence. And only upon answering that question thence can you then have a conversation about the particular parts of the document, why they think it's problematic, why you think it's not problematic, and then having that exchange back and forth to see if you can gain any unity in the description, the differences there. So I think that would be my recommendations for strategic purposes or toward a strategic end in the conversation. But I do think perhaps one way to go about the conversation is, as you put it, to explain the theology in it, which is beautiful and oppose the dignity of Our lady and give reasons for that. And then also too to try and articulate what Holy Mother Church is doing here with regard to her hesitancy with using the terminology. Like, it's one thing to talk about the reality or the theology and another thing to talk about the terminology. And if your friends have read the document as you have, Vince, they will know without a doubt that Holy Mother Church is not denying any theology that has been articulated over the past centuries in the magisterial teaching about Our lady, but rather is making the judgment that because these titles, Co Redemptrix, media tricks of all Graces, are often used today in ways that create theological confusion and require tons amounts of explanation to try and avoid misconceptions. The Church has judged that we're not going to use the terminology anymore. And so if you can articulate and explain it in that way, perhaps they can come to see that the Holy Mother Church is just saying we're not going to use this lingo anymore because of the potential confusion it can create given our circumstances of the day. And if they have a problem with the Church exercising her motherly role to make judgments as to which terminology is going to be helpful and which terminology is not helpful, then there you have just more a manifestation of a deeper problem of submitting to and trusting the wisdom of Holy Mother Church. And there would be an invitation for us to pray about that, for myself and for others, as to whether I'm docile enough to look to Holy Mother Church and exercising that wisdom. And then of course, you know, just really pray over and study the parts where it's talking about CO Redemptrix. Like, why does the Church want to do away with the terminology of CO Redemptrix? Well, it says specifically because it risks obscuring Christ's unique salvific mediation and can therefore create confusion and an imbalance of the harmony of the truths of the Christian faith. Many people conceive or interpret that label or that title to mean that Mary is redeeming as Christ the unique mediator. But that's of course absurd because as 1st Timothy 2. 5 says, Christ is the one mediator. He is the God Man. Only through Christ can we have access to the throne of the Father. Only Christ the God man, can redeem the human race and reunite the human race back to God. Now, what's Mary's role? As the document articulates, Mary plays a role in that plan of redemption by saying yes to the Father's plan to conceive Jesus in her womb by submitting her son to the Father's will at the foot of the cross and uniting her suffering with Christ. In that sense, she participates in the most unique way in the role and plan of redemption. But she is not the mediator of redemption, redemption of the human race. And that's what the document articulates. And if your friends have a problem with that, well, then we're going to have to jump back to square one as to what the redemption is and who's the agent, cause and the efficient cause of such redemption, and what is required for such an efficient cause to bring about that effect of redemption. And then with regard to media tricks of all graces, as you know, Vince, the document explains it beautifully that, that. That has the potential to lead people to think that Mary can actually give grace. Well, as I understand it, I think the documents right here that Mary cannot give grace as an agent cause. Once you understand what grace is, whether sanctifying grace, a quality of the soul that makes us holy, or actual graces, which are movements, supernatural movements of the intellect and will. When you consider grace under those two categories, you come to the conclusion that, yes, only God the Creator can give grace as an agent calls, which means Mary, nor I, nor you could do that. So what's Mary's role in the communication of graces? That God wills to give graces directly by his primary causality on account of the intercessory prayer of Mary, which is involved in the communication of all graces. That is sound theology. The Church is just worried about the terminology being used.

[Thomas Graff]

Vince, thank you so much for that call and for that opportunity to discuss that document one more time. Really took over the Internet for a day or two there. And so I'm glad we were able to get Carlo to iron things out one more time. Thanks so much for that call, Vince. That opens up another line. That's four lines open now all of a sudden so 888-318-7884 is the number to call if there is a Catholic doctrine that troubles you. Carla Broussard is happy to help you out. Triple eight is the number to call. Let's go now to Vicki calling from Oshkosh, Wisconsin, watching us right here on YouTube. Vicki, how you doing? You're on the air.

[Stephen]

Well, I'm fine. Thank you for taking my call. There's been. Can you hear me okay?

[Thomas Graff]

Yes, we can.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yes, ma'. Am.

[Stephen]

Okay, good. There's been a lot of talk about purgatory, and this just kind of popped in my head. If Jesus comes tomorrow and establishes the new heaven and earth, what happens to the souls in purgatory at that time? And what happens to the souls on earth that are living, that are in friendship with God? Mm. But, you know, would have some change of sin.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah.

[Stephen]

To be resolved.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Excellent question.

[Stephen]

Vicki have an answer there?

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah. So I'll have an answer. Whether or not you like it and you accept it, That's a different question. So we'll see what happens here. I address this in my book, Purgatory is for Real. And first of all, it's important to note that what I'm going to say here is not part of definitive Church teaching. We're in the realm of speculative theology, making certain theological conclusions based upon other things that we would know by way of divine revelation, by way of Church teaching, et cetera. So you asked first about what happens to the souls in purgatory at the final coming of Christ and the establishment at the final coming of Christ and the final judgment. Well, those souls in purgatory would. Would come to a completion of their final purification at that moment, such that all souls in purgatory would no longer be undergoing the final purification. They would have their final purification completed. And, of course, those souls would rise from the dead, receiving their glorified bodies in the bodily resurrection. Okay. And then, of course, rising from the dead with everybody else concerning the question of the soul still alive on earth at the second coming, the final judgment, and the establishment of the new heaven and new earth, if such souls would have any remnants of sin that would need to be purified in order to receive the beatific vision in the soul, then they would be purified. But rather than having to undergo a duration of purification like it may very well be for other souls, like the souls in purgatory right now, for these souls, it would be instantaneous and instantaneous purification. Because, remember, Vicki, the Church doesn't give us any sort of specification as to the nature of that purification. The Church just simply teaches that those souls who don't die with the perfect holiness necessary for immediate entrance into heaven are purified. The Church doesn't tell us whether durational or instantaneous, but theologically, we can articulate the possibility of durational purification, but also instantaneous purification. So we're not bound to the durational view. It's possible that some souls in purgatory could be purified, instantaneous, not only at the end of time, at the final coming of Christ, but couldn't even if somebody dies and they're instantaneously purified and then going into the Beatific vision. So this instantaneous purification view would be applied or used to interpret what's going to happen to those souls still alive on earth who are in friendship with Christ at the coming of Christ, but yet still have some of those remnants of sin that would need to be purged before receiving the beatific vision. And then, of course, you might think, well, if it's instantaneous, that doesn't seem to be just for those who had to endure it durational. But remember, whatever is lacking in the duration of purification can be made up for in the intensity of purification. And so hopefully those are some thoughts that will be enlightening for you.

[Thomas Graff]

Vicki, thank you so much for that call with that does bring us to our final break of the hour. Thanks for calling, Vicky. Please do call again. And before we go to our final break, I want to remind you all one last time that the Ultimate Bogo flash sale we're having this week might be one of our most popular promotions to date, because we are literally giving resources away. So, for example, if you go to shop.catholic.com right now, visit the Ultimate Bogo category and put Carlo's book Purgatory is For Real into your cart. You can grab any other one of Carlo's books, like Baptism Now Saves you like Meeting the Protestant Challenge, Meeting the Protestant Response, and a whole lot of other resources. In fact, 450 total resources. Over 450 resources, you put any multiple of two into your cart, you're gonna get half of those for free. So this is buy one, get one, like on steroids. Basically, just find any two items, place them in your cart, you will get the lower price item for free. No promo code needed. And this works in multiples of two. Buy four items, you'll get two of them for free. On and on and on. Every two you choose, you get one for free. This special will not last long. It goes from today through Thursday, November 20th at midnight. So visit shop.catholic.com look through the ultimate BOGO category and take advantage of this tremendous deal. We will be right back to wrap up our final segment of which Catholic Doctrine Troubles you, right here on Catholic Answers Live right after this.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Hang on. CATHOLIC ANSWERS Live will return in a.

[Announcer]

Moment in Morse code. The sequence SOS is a distress call. It's been said that it stands for Save our Souls. Well, right now our world is in big trouble and we're putting out an SOS call for help. Will you answer that call? St. Paul Street Evangelization, a Catholic nonprofit, has hundreds of teams who share the good news with souls who don't know Jesus. Catholic Answers is supported in part by St. Paul Street Evangelization. Visit streetevangelization.com to get involved.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

The EWTN Radio listener Comment line is.

[Thomas Graff]

Open right now for you.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

If you've got a question or comment about what you hear on EWTN Radio, we'd love to hear it. Call 205-795-5773.

[Thomas Graff]

We'd also like to know how our.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Programming has impacted your life or the life of someone you know that number again, 205-795-5773. And thank you for listening to EWTN Radio.

[Thomas Graff]

Welcome back to CATHOLIC ANSWERS LIVE. It's Dr. Carla Broussard here taking your questions on what Catholic doctrine troubles you. The number to call with one line open is eight eight, eight. My name is Thomas Graff. I'm filling in for Cy Kellett for the rest of today and for all of tomorrow. And our next caller is AJ Calling from Quad Cities, Iowa, watching us on Twitch. AJ Go ahead with your call. You are on the air with Carla Broussard.

[Vince]

Hi, good evening, Dr. I'm an extremely logic minded Catholic and I periodically give myself crises of faith. So I'm really looking for really logical reasons to believe in Jesus's divinity that I can kind of tell myself when I have doubts. I know the argument that the apostles were sincere even during their own executions. But, you know, members of Heaven, the Heaven's Gate cult, were also sincere. So I'm just, I'm looking for, I don't know what you got in this, in this area.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah. So I'm sure you're familiar with the trilemma argument, right, of C.S. lewis, like Lord liar, lunatic kind of thing. Are you familiar with that? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I mean that, that would be my argument. Now. It is important that an assumption that has to be made or worked out in order for the trilemma argument to have its force and take off and get off the ground is the historical reliability of the New Testament document. Once we have that in place and that we can actually trust what these early Christians are telling us about what Jesus said about himself, namely that he's the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob made flesh, then we can begin running the trilemma argument. So you brought up the alternative explanation that he is liar, as opposed to him being who he says he is, namely Lord. And of course, you brought up one reason to reject that liar option, namely that we have evidence that the apostles were at least sincere in their belief that Jesus was who he says he was, not simply that they died for it, but that they were willing to die for it. And here's the key. When there was nothing to gain and everything to lose. So that's the key with regard to Jesus, with regard. I'm sorry, Jesus being willing to die. You brought up the apostles. That's my. Where My mind went there. So that has to do with why the apostles believe Jesus is Lord. But if we have the evidence that Jesus says he is Lord and that he was willing to die for what he knew to be a lie when he had nothing to gain and everything to lose, then that shows us that Jesus is at least is sincere and not a liar. But remember, AJ sincerity is not the only piece of the pie. It's not the only piece of the puzzle. In order for the conclusion to work, you also have to give reason why he's not a lunatic or a crazy man. Because it's one thing to say he knows his claim to be divine is false, which would make him a liar. But perhaps he doesn't know it's false, but in reality it is. And that would make him of course, a lunatic. So then the question becomes, do we have reason to think that he was a lunatic, or do we have reason to think that he was not a lunatic? I would argue we have reason to think he was not a lunatic. Even skeptics to Christianity will say he's at least a wise teacher of some sort, even if not God. But if there's enough historical evidence to lead us to the conclusion that Jesus is a wise teacher, well, then it logically follows that he's wise enough to know who he is. If he is so entrapped in a lunatic state of mind, he wouldn't be a wise man, he wouldn't be a wise teacher. So that would be one reason to reject the lunatic option. Secondly, assuming again that the Gospel portraits of Jesus are accurate and reliable. And Jesus taught in ways that captivated the minds of his audiences, saying to themselves, what man has taught with such authority like this before? And they were in awe at Jesus's teaching. That doesn't seem to be the earmark of a lunatic. And finally, AG I would argue Jesus beat the most intellectually sophisticated members of his community of his day at their intellectual games. Several times they tried to trap him him in an intellectual trap, a dilemma. You either go one way, you reject Moses, you go the other way, you're acting against Roman Empire and they're going to come and squash you. Several different times, the Pharisees tried to entrap him with their intellectual acuity and sophistication. And every single time, AJ Jesus slips out of the intellectual dilemma and is in no way impugned by what they're trying to impugn him for. And that tells me that Jesus ain't no lunar lunatic. Right? To use my best theological language, he is not a lunatic on account of those reasons. So if Jesus is not a lunatic, and we have good historical reasons to think this, and he is not a liar, and we have good historical reasons to make this claim, well, then it follows that his claim to be divine cannot be false, since those are the only two other explanations for the falsehood of his claims. And so therefore, we're left with the only option that his claim to be divine is true. So to summarize it, Jesus. We have the historical data that Jesus claimed to be God made flesh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That claim is either true or false. If it's false, then he's either a liar or lunatic. He's not a lunatic. He's not a liar. Therefore, the claim is not false, which means the claim is true. So that AJ Would be my way of thinking through the issue in order to provide some logical consistency and a ground for my ascent to Jesus to be who he says he is. And of course, the ultimate reason. A.J. you know, you brought up Jesus sincerity, the ultimate reason why we know Jesus is who he says he is, which I think eliminates both liar and lunatic together in one swell swoop. One fell swoop is, number one, his miracles, and then number two, the greatest miracle being his resurrection. If we have good historical grounds to conclude that Jesus performed the miracles that he did, including his resurrection, in direct association with his claim to be God, well, then he is who he says he is. But of course, much work would have to be done to defend the historicity of these miracle stories in order to make that conclusion. So that's how I think through it. What are your thoughts?

[Vince]

I appreciate it. I'll give it some mulling over, so.

[Thomas Graff]

Thank you very much.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Okay my friend. All right. God bless you.

[Thomas Graff]

Thank you for your call AJ we appreciate that a lot. Call back anytime you like with any more follow ups you have.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Thomas, Real quick, I gotta say for a resource for aj, I should have thought of this while he was on the phone. Check out A Case for Christ by Dr. Brant Petrie. Petrie does a great job in that book.

[Thomas Graff]

I will second that recommendation. I listened to it on Audiobook Forum recently and it is a tour de force in my opinion. I highly recommend that as well. AJ let's move now to Timothy calling from Vancouver, Washington, listening on modern day radio. Timothy, go ahead with Your question for Dr. Carlo and I will tell you we're getting close to the end of the hour, so if you could be as succinct as possible, that would be perfect.

[Stephen]

Okay.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

I was listening to the radio show.

[Vince]

Last week and I believe I heard that if you are aware of the.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Catholic Church but do not partake of.

[Samuel]

The Catholic Church, then you will go to hell.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

And I just want to clarify if.

[Samuel]

That is what I actually heard.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Okay, Timothy, I'm not sure what you heard, but I will address the way I address it the way you articulated it. It all depends on what you mean by aware of the Catholic Church. If that means just simply my Baptist neighbor knows about the Catholic Church, well then that doesn't mean he's automatically going to hell for not being a Catholic. But if by aware of the Catholic Church you mean somebody knows that the Catholic Church has been established by Jesus Christ and they make a positive act of the will to say, no, I will not belong, I will not submit, and they die in that rejection of what they know to be the truth of Jesus Christ, then hell will be their destiny happening. So again, it all depends on what you mean by aware of the Catholic Church. And furthermore, for those who aren't aware, it's going to depend upon whether they're responsible or not for that lack of awareness. Whether they're responsible for their ignorance that the Catholic Church is established by Jesus Christ. If they're not responsible for such ignorance, then God potentially, then God would not hold them accountable for that invincible lack of ignorance, lack of knowledge. But if they are responsible for their ignorance and lack of awareness that the Catholic Church was established by Jesus, maybe due to laziness or due to sin, then God will hold them accountable. So this is a very important issue. We want to clarify any confusion. We are not saying if you're not Catholic, you're going to hell, but with the proper nuancing and conditions met, we can have a proper understanding. Hopefully that's helpful.

[Thomas Graff]

Thank you very much for that call, Timothy. Thank you to everyone who called in with all of your questions. And thank you, Dr. Carla Broussard for two great hours today.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Hey, thank you, Thomas. I had a blast, man. It was fun geeking out with you today.

[Thomas Graff]

Me too. Me too. This was a good show that we had. And to anyone who called and did not get their question answered, do not fret because tomorrow it is two hours of Ask Me Anything with Joe Heshmeyer. You will have to endure my voice in between the questions and the answers. But Joe is a great, great apologist to listen to and have those questions answered for answered by. Thank you all for joining us today and we will see you right back here, God willing, on Catech Answers Live.