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#12465 Richard Dawkins Shook My Faith – Why Aren’t You Catholic? - Joe Heschmeyer
“Richard Dawkins Shook My Faith” This episode addresses concerns about doubt and belief, offering clarity on how to navigate challenges to your faith. Additionally, we explore how Jesus is the son of David and delve into the topic of papal succession, tracing the lineage from Peter to the current pope. Join the Catholic Answers Live Club Newsletter Invite our apologists to speak at your parish! Visit Catholicanswersspeakers.com Questions Covered: 06:55 – I just discovered Richard Dawkins and it has really shaken me. Can you help? 34:00 – My protestant friend asked me this. How is Jesus the son of David? 49:20 – Papal succession. How do you go from Peter to the current pope? Where do you see the beginning of the lineage?
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- [00:00]
A
Buying or selling your home. Real Estate for Life can connect you with a pro life real estate agent. When Real Estate for Life receives a referral fee, they donate 65% to Catholic Answers. Learn more at realestateforlife.org.
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B
Hello and welcome to Catholic Answers Live. So glad to be back with you on a Wednesday as we take you through two hours of why aren't you Catholic? That is the question for today. Why aren't you Catholic? The number to call is 8883-1878-8488-3180-7884. If you want to tell us why you're Catholic and have a conversation for us, we would love to have your call 888-318-7884. We prefer to take calls from non Catholics. On days like today, we will perhaps take a call on behalf of a non Catholic. If you are a Catholic wanting to ask that question, we'll take your call as well. But we want to hear from you non Catholics. We want to hear from you Protestants, atheists, Muslims, any belief system really that is listening and wants to tell us why they are not Catholic. Call 888-3186 if you disagree with us on social issues. Maybe you are a pro choice person who's not Catholic because of our stance on abortion. You can call us if you disagree with the Catholic Church's stance on things like homosexuality, in vitro fertilization, any kind of issue you can think of that is keeping you out of the Catholic Church. 888-318-7884 is the number to call and you will not be talking to me about that. I will bring you on the show. You will be talking to our guest instead. Our guest today is our very own staff apologist, speaker, author of books such as the Eucharist Is really Jesus. The early church was the Catholic Church, Pope Peter, and of course the host and proprietor of the podcast Shameless Popery. It is our very own Joe Heschmeyer. Joe, welcome back to the show.
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C
It's good to be here.
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B
Always good to have you, Joe. And by the way, for the listener's sake, you might be wondering why Cy Kellett's voice is not coming at you right now. That's because Sy is still traveling. He will be back here, I believe tomorrow or in the next few days, Sy will return to his normal place in the host chair. But my name is Thomas Graff. I usually run the social media around here at Catholic Answers. I'm taken today to guide you through this two hour show of why aren't you Catholic And Joe is ready to talk to you about all this.
- [02:44]
C
Yeah, I just realized I'm on video and I just spilled water on myself so it looks like there's a huge stain on my shirt. It's a new shirt. I haven't stained it yet. So off to a. If anyone wondering why I was suddenly. Yeah, look, I made for radio.
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B
It's okay, Joe. We're bringing you slowly into the new era of media. It just takes a little less carelessness with your water in order to really make it in this medium. But we'll get you there, Joe. We'll get you there.
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C
Thanks.
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B
Yeah. If that's why you're not Catholic is Joe's water stained shirt. Hey, you can call us too about that and we'll tell you why the sins of the church's should not keep you out. 888-318-7884 before we get to the calls, I have a very pressing question that I do want to ask. Joe, before we get into our non.
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C
Catholic callers, can I preface this by saying you announced you were going to ask a question during the show and have refused to tell me what the question is?
- [03:40]
B
Yes, yes, that's right. I think.
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C
Let's do it.
- [03:43]
B
The question is important enough that it bears a blind answer. And that question is, Joe, where do you get the nerve to make a podcast in which you say that your diocese is one of the best in the nation, and yet the diocese that Catholic answers your employer, I might add, resides in is one of the worst Catholic dioceses in the nation? Joe Hegemeier, where do you get the nerves?
- [04:09]
C
I didn't stress that in the video, but if the numbers speak for themselves, they do speak for themselves. Yeah, look, I'm very active in the Kansas City area on both the Missouri and Kansas side, speaking at parishes, and meanwhile you're in San Diego apparently doing nothing.
- [04:28]
B
Apparently doing nothing.
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C
Apparently doing nothing. The change begins at home. So I would say to everyone listening, regardless of how healthy your diocese is, start working on your local diocese, start working in the area you're planted and see if you can't help bring a few more people to a deeper relationship with Jesus Christ. And if enough people say yes to that call, in all seriousness, you will, you will see the kind of fruit. So for those who may be wondering the thing that Thomas is referring to here, I recently had an episode of Shameless Popery where I looked at the most recent numbers Catholic World Report had released. Looking from the official Catholic directory at the per capita rate of seminarians, baptisms, converts into the church, and Catholic weddings. And it showed that the Midwest and the south are doing very well spiritually, by the numbers, and that there are some other parts of the country that are struggling a little more. Now, you can come to any number of conclusions about why that is, but I think it is worth looking at what are some of the things going well in the diocese that appear to be really flourishing. So we can then copy those in.
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B
Other places and you can listen to that full episode on Joe's YouTube channel, Shameless Potpourri. It also also all the episodes post in audio only form to most, if not all podcast platforms, I believe. So just search Shameless Popery, Joe Heschmeyer and so on. That will be one of the recent episodes. And yeah, you know, I think number of Catholic apostolates dedicated to explaining and defending the faith inside the diocese borders should be a rather weighty metric. And by that measure, San Diego is clearing just about everyone else.
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C
Number of people in the diocese who own Catholic.
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B
Yes, precisely.
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C
That should be at least like a point or two.
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B
I think that's a massive, massively weighted metric. My defense of my home diocese rests there. And we will cease grilling Joe. At least I will. And we'll have our callers grill Joe instead. Joe, you ready to go to our callers?
- [06:37]
C
Let's do it.
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B
All right, number one, our first caller kicking off the day, it comes from Andrew in Kansas, right next door to Joe in Kansas City. Andrew, you are on the air. Go ahead with your question for Joe.
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D
Yeah, thank you guys for taking my question. So I for the first time just recently discovered Richard Dawkins. And it's. Yeah, I've specifically watched a few videos. One of them was a debate with or a discussion with Jordan Peterson. And it really shook me up. I guess there's. So there's two main questions specifically he referenced, you know, very matter of factly that the reason Mary's virginity is written in the Bible is due to a mistranslation. So I guess I'm curious if you have any insight specifically on that. But then I mean in general in terms of, I guess thinking through, you know, Dawkins arguments and new atheism in general, if you have any resources or recommendations or general thoughts that I to keep in mind as it relates to that.
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C
So, okay, the, the issue there is the Hebrew word alma in Isaiah 7 being translated as Parthenon into Greek. And you should know a few things. So alma. It's. He's right that it doesn't have to mean virgin. The word means something like maiden. And, you know, like the English word maiden can mean young woman or unmarried woman or Virginia, because once upon a time, this was usually the same thing that people waited until they were married, at least allegedly. And so you could use the same term for all three of those things, a young woman who is unmarried and has not had relations. And so the Hebrew word there, alma, can mean any of those things. And so it could mean that this is a prophecy that a lady is going to give birth to a baby, but that is not a particularly notable sort of thing. And so interpreting it that way, even though grammatically it could mean that contextually it doesn't mean that, or at least that's not the best or only translation, you'll find people who read Isaiah 7 as having what's called a double fulfillment because there are plenty of prophecies in Scripture where there's some immediate sense in which it seems to be fulfilled, and then later on, a much fuller sense in which it's fulfilled. Does that make sense?
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B
Does that make sense? Andrew yeah.
- [09:12]
C
Okay. So like for instance, in 2nd Samuel 7, God promises a throne to the son of David. And in an immediate literal sense, this looks like it's a prophecy about Solomon. But there's another sense in which it's ultimately a prophecy about the son of David, Jesus. So here, when it talks about an Alma giving birth, there is one immediate sense that could mean, you know, the birth of a king to come in the immediate timeline right there in Isaiah. But it clearly meant more than that. And so even prior to Christianity, when the Septuagint is translated into Greek, they translate this ambiguous word, alma, as virgin. Parthenon. So when Matthew quotes it in Matthew 1, he quotes the Greek version that a virgin will conceive and bear a son. But here's the thing. The Jews in the first century had both versions. They spoke Hebrew. And so it wasn't like they were all reading the Greek because they didn't realize what the Hebrew said. They knew both, and they understood that the Hebrew is a little more ambiguous, but contextually means Virginia. And the Greek just spells out explicitly what the Hebrew implies. And so then you end up with either way. However, you understand this, the Septuagint, well before the time of Christ is predicting a virgin birth. And then you have a virgin birth. So it doesn't matter in a certain sense whether that prophecy is from 200 years or 700 years before. Either way, you have this prophecy of a virgin birth clearly before the time of Christ because the Septuagint is older than the time of Christ predicting a virgin birth. And then one happens. Now you can raise this deeper question of how do we know it was really a virgin birth and all of this. There's a lot that goes into this. It's the kind of facile way that so Dawkins, as you say, he says things very authoritatively and assertively and if you've never explored the issue, he always acts like he's an expert on all of these things. I actually, I'm very glad you mentioned Dawkins because I just recorded an episode for tomorrow and there's a tweet. This tweet is 10 years old, but still newer than God delusion or in any of these books. In 2015 he tweeted Bible and Quran were the best that Bronze Age desert tribes could do. But we've moved on and even at the time others were doing it better. And the, the thing that makes that so absurd is, is the Bronze age is like 3300 BC to about 1200 BC. And meanwhile the New Testament is written in the first century. The Quran is written in the seventh century AD. So he's off by, you know, about 2000 years. And so to have like this level of confidence with this level of inaccuracy in your beliefs about the Bible or even the Quran in that case, shows kind of like the intellectual heft Dawkins has. He's very arrogant, he's very self assured and he's very good at convincing people who don't know a subject matter that he must be right. But when you actually explore the arguments, you find out like there's not nearly as much there as he would have you believe. And Dawkins has for the last 15 years run from debates with serious Christian thinkers like William Lane Craig. And his excuse is like, he finds Craig arrogant and it's like, well, you guys should be great in a room together. But he, like, he won't allow his ideas to be critically examined on the spot except by people who aren't coming from a traditional Christian standpoint and are not equipped to push back with the same kind of level of rigor. And so in a way he does come off as a bit of a charlatan. I don't know. What do you think, Andrew?
- [12:56]
D
No, that's helpful. Like I said, I probably being from Kansas, I just had never encountered him before and came across it and went down a rabbit hole and just had questions. So.
- [13:10]
C
Oh yeah, what is the. Alistair McGrath had a book called the Dawkins Delusion. There were a bunch of books that were written in response to Dawkins in the early 2000s when he first kind of came on the scene. And I think he, he largely got kind of laughed out of the room in terms of people who know philosophy and theology well. And he more or less took to like popular debates and Twitter after that. I haven't seen him do much even in the world of atheism in, I don't know, the better part of the last 10 years, because I don't think he has much to actually add to the conversation.
- [13:46]
B
Well, Andrew, does that help you out? I know you had more general, you were wondering more generally about how you can combat the thought of Dawkins and people like him, but does that help you out at least with your question regarding the virgin birth?
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D
Yeah, yeah, it does. Okay.
- [14:04]
B
Okay, great. Well, Joe mentioned one book by you, said Alistair McGrath, the Dawkins delusion that might be happening.
- [14:11]
C
Yeah, I just know it was like the first one that came to mind. In terms of many of the books.
- [14:14]
B
That were written in response, I can think of at least a few others that took Dawkins and the New Atheism movement to task directly. One of them is by Professor Edward Faser. It was called the Last Superstition. That one really went head on against the New Atheists. And then of course published by Catholic Answers Press is a couple books, one Answering Atheism by Trent Horne that does a pretty good thorough job on the popular level of taking down these atheist arguments. And then another is One Less God than you by the name is eluding me. I think it was, it might have been Mark DeRosa. One anyway. One less God than you.
- [14:52]
A
Yeah, it is John derosa.
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B
John derosa, that was the one.
- [14:54]
C
And John derosa. These are great recommendations. These are much better recommendations. I mean, that's not to knock Alison McGrath, but Faser was brilliant. John DeRosa is brilliant. Carlo Broussard is, you know, obviously brilliant. David Bentley Hart did a response called Atheist Delusions. And you know, David's controversial in his own right, but. Or, oh, John Lennox also did a reply looking specifically at the arguments from a scientific perspective, because John Lennox, brilliant mathematician and bioethicist, he, he has a great sit down with cosmic skeptic. What is his name? Alex o'.
- [15:39]
B
Connor.
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C
Yeah, so Alex o' Connor has this brilliant interview with Linux, who was one of the most formidable people that Dawkins did sit down with. And Linux is. Yeah, he is a force. And so you, you look at these people and you look at the arguments that they're wielding and it's like, okay, there's, there's actually a lot more here than Dawkins would have you believe. Like, Dawkins is great at answering a sort of unlearned, illiterate Christianity of because the Bible tells me so. If, like, if that's your, if that's it on your faith, that's all you can give for why you believe what you believe, people like Dawkins are going to be a real problem. But when you actually go deeper on these things, then it turns out there are answers to the questions that people like Dawkins are raising.
- [16:25]
B
Yeah. No offense, by the way, Andrew. Like, not saying that's why. Oh, no, not saying that's why you found it hard. But yeah, that is what Dawkins is good at arguing against, if he's good at arguing against anything. So, yeah, I would highly recommend all those books to you, Andrew. Check out if you want to dive deeper into this. That takes us to our first break. It's been a good hour so far of why aren't you Catholic? And we will come back for more from Joe Heschmeier right after this.
- [16:52]
C
Hang on. Catholic Answers Live will return in a moment.
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A
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B
In a year and Catechism in a year with Father Mike schmitz tonight at 10pm Eastern, 7pm Pacific on EWTN Radio. Welcome back to CATHOLIC ANSWERS Live. It's why aren't you Catholic With Joe Heschmeyer. I'm Thomas Graff's social media manager, sitting in for Cy Kellett as he's out today. I mentioned to our last caller, Andrew, who was asking about how to combat the ideas of the new atheism. I mentioned two books written by Catholic Answers Press 1 Answering Atheism by Trent Horne and the other one Less God Than Youn by John DeRosa. And I neglected to mention at that point, as I should have, that currently on shop.catholic.com you can get both of those books. You can get one of those books for free in our ultimate Buy one, Get one Flash sale. So the way it works is if you go to shop.catholic.com, the big banner that you'll see right away you can't miss. It says Ultimate Bogo Flash Sale. And you can scroll through over 450 resources from which to choose. You find any two items and place them in your cart and you will get the lower priced item for free with no promo code needed. So Andrew, if you're still listening, you can go get both answering Atheism and One Less God Than youn for a buy one get one price. That's one totally free. So again, you just go to shop.catholic.com click on that category shop around, find any two items and it goes by multiples of two. So if you buy four items, you get two for free and on and on. For every two you choose, you get one for free. But this does not last long. It lasts today through tomorrow midnight at Thursday, Midnight on Thursday, November 20th. The ultimate BOGO category sale is only available from now till Midnight on Thursday, November 20th. Visit shop.catholic.com to take advantage. Joe, are you ready to move on?
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C
I just realized in response to the last caller that I said Carlo Broussard was brilliant when I meant to say Trent Horn, although that is true of both of them. I did hear that Answering Atheism is of course a Trent Horn title.
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B
It is. I did hear that. I didn't want to correct you because Carlo is also brilliant.
- [20:24]
C
You know, I wasn't wrong. I was just irrelevant.
- [20:27]
B
That's right. That's right. But we'll see how relevant. You can stay with these next callers. Let's go on to Moses calling US From El Paso, Texas, Moses. Thank you for your patience.
- [20:36]
C
Stay in the way. Moses made El Paso through the Red Sea.
- [20:41]
B
Moses, that's what you're in for right now. So it's not too late to hang up if you want.
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D
No, no, I just dropped my phone. Sorry about that.
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C
No worries.
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B
No worries. Joe ate up the time for you.
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C
Yeah.
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D
So I do have a list. It goes basically from most important to me to least important. It would go poor leadership, lack of accountability. I worry that confession is used to hide sin instead of heal it. Authority without accountability is invalid, and development of traditions have made, like, Catholicism, impractical. I'll stop right there.
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C
Okay, sorry. Which end of that was the most important?
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D
From top to bottom.
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C
Okay. Just wanted to make sure. So with the leadership, just to make sure I understand where you're coming from. You believe Jesus came into the world, he gave us the disciples, etc. Is that fair? Yeah. Would you say they were all good leaders?
- [21:54]
D
Not thoroughly, no.
- [21:57]
C
Yeah, I mean, you've got Judas who betrays him. You've got the other 11 who abandoned him. They. They fight with each other. They do all sorts of things. They often feel, even after, you know, the death and resurrection of Christ, you have Paul needing to rebuke Peter for the. Not living out the gospel in Galatians 2 there, you know, so poor leadership, you're dead on the money. There has been poor leadership in the church for 2,000 years. But if poor leadership is a reason not to be Catholic, it would seemingly be a reason not to follow the apostles at all. Now, that doesn't mean poor leadership doesn't matter, but it does mean that it's not an invalidating question. That makes sense.
- [22:39]
D
Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. My issue is when it's like, it seems that the system that's been set up and is in, as far as I know, I'm not too educated on this topic, is dogmatized already. Is basically leading to more poor leadership. Like there's a bug in the system, is what I'm saying. And there's. Nobody's cleaning it up. Even though you guys have the vicar of Christ, Peter's descendant, you got the main guy who is supposed to be able to basically do whatever he wants, in my opinion. I mean, when you look into Leo's history, he dealt with certain things, like certain abuses in the church before. And I was hoping, because I'm a teacher, man, my whole thing is, like, the protection of the kids. I was hoping when he came in, he's gonna start flipping tables you know?
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C
Yeah.
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D
And like, start really, really looking for people. Because, I mean, in my lifetime, I've been in church my whole life, man. You know, and in my lifetime I've only ever heard of abuses cases where it's really, really bad when people are coming to us because they're coming from priests, you know.
- [23:56]
C
Yeah. So, I mean, there's an interesting amount of data on comparing teachers to clergy. So I would just say this. There has been historically a real problem with both abuse by priests and cover up by bishops. I think those problems have gotten significantly better and think we see that in the numbers in the last 22 years since the Dallas charter and since, you know, the kind of. The spotlight was shown, so to speak, on the church, that for a variety of reasons, people took the problem more seriously than they had before and it became less socially acceptable to cover up sins and crimes like that. And I'm grateful for, you know, the Boston Globe, I'm grateful for everyone who, who really did the work of bringing that filth to light in a way that it had to be dealt with rather than the buck just being passed without minimizing that in any way. I do think that it is worth acknowledging that this was not a uniquely or distinctly Catholic thing, that there are no stats showing the rates of abuse of like Catholic versus Protestant clergy because Protestants aren't part of an easy to sue, like, single denomination or body. But the little information we have looking at things like public schools shows that teachers were way more likely to offend and were just as likely to be kind of moved around when they offended, that other religious groups had horrible misconduct. The Jehovah's Witnesses, I believe it was, in Australia. There was a royal commission that investigated there, found over a thousand cases of suspected abuse. Not one of the abusers was ever moved or report. Excuse me, one of the abusers was ever reported to the police. So you have like, those kind of things. So were there real problems? Absolutely. Do those problems disprove Catholicism as a unique system? I don't think they do at all. They rather show that even a system ordained by God can be abused by sinful men.
- [25:58]
B
Moses, thank you for your call. I know you had a lot more questions that you wanted to get through and we just don't have time to get through to them right now. We got to go to this break, but please do call back again. We would love to continue this talk with you. We'll be right back with more why Aren't yout Catholic? Right after this.
- [26:14]
A
We hope that one of the things that we communicate here at Catholic Answers Live is that our Catholic faith allows us to be fully serious about all the problems we encounter in the church and in the world. But it also lets us have light hearts and maybe even mix in a bit of fun. And that is exactly what our good friend Joe Heschmeyer does in his popular podcast Shameless Potpourri. You should check it out@shelessjoe.com Joe's got a deep grasp of the faith, morals, the teachings of the Church, all that, but he's also got a witty conversational style. He entertains and he informs, but you will leave equipped to better answer the most common challenges, misconceptions and questions about the Catholic faith. He's got insightful guests he does on air debates, and he takes a close look into all the things that you want to know about as a Catholic living today. You'll walk away knowledgeable and filled with joy. Look for Joe on his YouTube channel. Check him out@shelessjoe.com or wherever you get your podcast. And if you like what you hear, become a patron.
- [27:15]
B
Throughout history, some Catholics have been among the worst kind of villains, right? Or were they? In Canceled, historian Steve Weidenkopf digs into the lives and controversies of some of these Catholics whose reputations have been blackened, often unfairly. He takes on the anti Catholic versions of history and defends not only these figures, but the faith they represent. Order your copy of canceled today@shop.catholic.com or.
- [27:42]
C
Ask for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you.
- [27:46]
A
What is the Catholic Church? Everybody seems to have an opinion, but the church never quite fits into the boxes people try to make for it in the family Faith Unboxed, author Andrew Petaprin looks at some of the most common boxes people put the Catholic Church in and explains why they don't fit in. Doing so, he brings us closer to what the church really is, the institution founded by Christ. Order the faith unboxed today@shop.catholic.com or ask for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you.
- [28:17]
B
Matt Swaim here.
- [28:18]
A
Tomorrow on the Sunrise Morning show, we'll get more. Make ahead recipes for Thanksgiving from Rita.
- [28:23]
B
Heichenfeld, plus news, weather, sports and a whole lot more. Now back to Catholic Answers live. Welcome back to CATHOLIC Answers live. We are asking you, why aren't you Catholic? And we are asking you to come on the air and tell us. 888-318-7884 is the number to call. The lines are all full, but you might want to call anyway in case some Lines open up here and there. 888-318-7884. We had to kind of wrap up quickly our discussion with Moses, our previous caller, because we were reaching a heartbreak and we had to go out. But, Joe, you were covering, you were covering some of the reasons why maybe things have gotten better on the abuse front as it pertains to the Catholic Church and the way that things have improved ever since the really despicable crimes were brought to light. But you were telling me there's a little bit of a bow you want to put on that, at least as it relates to whether Pope Leo is going to maybe be a little bit better than past popes in this regard.
- [29:33]
C
Because Moses asked, you know, he said he was hoping Poplio would just come in and start flipping tables and was disappointed that that hadn't happened yet. And I do think it's fair to ask what Pope Leo's American background is going to mean because he lived in the country that was first kind of the global epicenter of this conversation and saw a bunch of policies being put in place and has now lived in at least three different countries between the U.S. peru and Italy, and seen how, like, the implementation of those policies can change at a national level. And he was the head of the Augustinian order. So he, you know, he's seen all of this stuff kind of play out internationally in different contexts. But the US Bishops, I think, rightly have a sensitivity to this issue because they've, they've had to deal with it in a, in an acute way for the last 20 some odd years. So he was asked about the Father Rupnik scandal. Now, with long story short, this priest, who's an artist and his work was regularly featured by the Vatican, had been accused of inappropriate relationships, some of them sexually abusive relationships with 20 different women or more than 20 different women. These were not cases involving minors, but they were cases involving the abuse of spiritual authority, allegedly. And there was a question about, well, what was going to be done about this. And he said, I know it's very difficult for the victims to ask that they be patient, but the Church needs to respect the rights of all people. The principle of innocent until proven guilty is also true in the church. And hopefully this trial that is just beginning will be able to give some clarity and justice to all those involved. So to be clear, there is an ongoing, we're in the early stages of a canonical trial where the court will determine if these allegations are true. And we're in a situation where there have been in the past Priests have been falsely accused of things. You can't just immediately take an allegation as proof of guilt. But you also want to act in a way that is respectful of, of the legitimate grievances of victims and not leave predator priests in the midst of the flock. So it is. It's a tricky thing to handle in a way that is just towards everyone involved. But I was heartened by those words of him just saying, like, I get it, I take it seriously. Here's why I can't just come in and, you know, flip tables and, and just say, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. We have to actually look at the evidence. We have to actually, you know, find out. But we need to actually do the work of doing that. We can't just nod and wink towards the problem. And he's, he's saying all the right things on this. It's very early on. We'll see kind of how that plays out. But I think that there's reason to be, to be hopeful that he recognizes the severity and the gravity and he's going to do something about it.
- [32:24]
B
And most of all that, you know, in the end, the true end, no one is going to escape justice on this. If they don't see justice in this life, they will most certainly see justice in the next. For, yeah, you know, that's because one.
- [32:36]
C
Of the other things Moses had said on kind of his list of things that were grievances was authority without accountability is illegitimate. And the reality is there is no authority without accountability. Like, it just doesn't exist. Hebrews 13:17 says, Obey your leaders and submit to them for their keeping watch over your souls as men who will have to give account, let them do this joyfully and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. So we're told right there in Scripture where that accountability is going to come. Now, sometimes you'll see accountability in this life. You know, bad priests will be disciplined by his bishop, or a bad bishop will get in trouble with the pope or, you know, something like this. But frequently in this life, you don't see the full manifestation of the justice of God, but that justice will be meted out. Now, God is merciful as well, thanks be to God. We don't just have to rely on the justice of God, but we will all have to give account. And there's a special way in which we're reminded that our leaders will have to give account. And so there's no one who is going to have authority without accountability, because that accountability is coming.
- [33:44]
B
Whether you believe in him or not, there is a king of the universe, and I believe we're celebrating his feast this Sunday as well.
- [33:50]
C
Yes. Christ the King.
- [33:52]
B
As good a time as any to start thinking about that reckoning. In the meantime, let's go over to Houston, Texas, where Juan has been waiting patiently. Juan, you are next up on this hour with Joe Heschmeier. Go ahead with your question.
- [34:08]
D
Can you hear me?
- [34:09]
B
Yes, we can.
- [34:09]
C
Yep.
- [34:11]
D
Okay. No, thank you for taking my call. And I had a Protestant friend bring up the fact that Matthew and Luke have different genealogies for how Jesus would be the son of David. And he said that the Catholic Church and the catechism is false because it teaches that both of those genealogies are for Joseph. So he says that one of those genealogies has to be for Mary, especially the one in Luke, because then how would he be a son of David? And the only objection that I could bring up was that through a adoption.
- [34:50]
C
Yeah. Well, so legal adoption does create sonship in the Jewish genealogy. So he is a son of Adam biologically through Mary. He also appears to be a son of David through mary. In Luke 1, when the angel Gabriel greets Mary, he says to her, and behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great. And we called the son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David. And so we're not told there whether that's sonship biologically through Mary or sonship legally through Joseph. But what's important there, strangely enough, is actually legal sonship, that it was okay to adopt a son. So you have what's called levirate marriages. For instance, if your brother married a woman and then died, the brother would then marry her, and then the children born of that woman would be legally the son of the first husband. That makes sense, that they'd be biologically one man's child, but legally another. And so one of the explanations that's been offered for the two divergent genealogies between Matthew 1 and Luke 3 is that there's probably a levirate marriage in here where one of them is looking at biological and one of them is looking at legal. Both of them are explicitly genealogies going back through Joseph, though. So I think it is fair to say that there is a Davidic line through Mary and that this is probably pointed to by the angel Gabriel's words. But it is also the case that the biblical genealogies in both Matthew and Luke's Gospel are explicitly through Joseph. Now, the Gospels are very clear that Joseph is the son of David. This is important for this reason. So, for instance, in Matthew 1, verse 20, the angel refers to him as Joseph, son of David. And likewise with the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, we're told that he is born there because Joseph is of the house of David. So the Davidic line, both Matthew and Luke, are focused on the Davidic connection with Joseph. Luke 1, verse 27, refers to Mary as being betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph of the house of David. Now, a lot of people don't realize this. They are legally married at the time when the angel Gabriel comes. They are legally. Even though it says betrothed in our translation, under Jewish law, they're legally married. And so the child legally of the Davidic line. Make sense?
- [37:38]
D
Yeah, so. So whenever I want. Because his biggest objection was that it had to be through blood, I suppose. So I have to be able to refute it. I have through adoption. But the only other way I would be able to prove it through Mary would be through what the angel Gabriel says.
- [37:58]
C
Right. And the angel Gabriel doesn't explicitly even say that Mary's of the Davidic line. There is an old tradition that this was the case. But the one your friend says is the genealogy of Mary says in Luke 3, Jesus, when he began his ministry, is about 30 years of age being the son, as was supposed, of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Methat, and so on. It's explicitly a genealogy going from Joseph back, and it's looking at.
- [38:29]
D
Oh, sorry, sorry.
- [38:33]
C
It's very popular for people to say that one of these is Mary's genealogy. And that's not impossible, but it's not what the Bible actually says either.
- [38:41]
D
Okay, okay.
- [38:43]
C
Like the Bible presents both of these as Joseph's genealogies. It is not necessary that he be biologically Joseph's son to be his son legally.
- [38:53]
B
Does that help?
- [38:53]
C
Just like, by the way, you're. You're a son of God, you are not a son of God by nature. You're a son of God by adoption, and so you inherit all the promises of God. This is really central to the Christian theme. First, John 3, if you want that, like, we inherit all the promises of God even though we're not divine by nature.
- [39:15]
D
Okay, now that's perfect. That's a perfect way to put it.
- [39:19]
B
Great. Glad we were able to help you out with that, Juan. Thank you so much for your call. That's going to take us to our final break of the hour. And before we get you there, I do want to remind you once more that the ultimate buy one get one flash sale is taking place on shop.catholic.com it's your chance to cash in and take advantage of a truly tremendous deal. We are literally giving resources away. You don't need a promo code, excuse me, to take advantage of this. You just find any two items under the ultimate BOGO category on shop.catholic.com find any two items there. Place them in your cart. You will get the lower priced item for free. Again, no promo code needed. You go to shop.catholic.com visit the ultimate BOGO category. It's right there on the front. You can't miss it. And buy any two items. You get one for free, four items, two for free. It goes on and on. The special won't last long. It's only from today through Thursday, midnight tomorrow, November 20th. Go to shop.catholic.com to take advantage. Stay right there. We will be back to take more questions from non Catholic callers after this. Hang on. We'll be right back with more Catholic Answers Live.
- [40:27]
A
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- [40:59]
C
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B
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B
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- [41:14]
C
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- [41:39]
B
Welcome back to CATHOLIC Answers live. Why aren't you Catholic? Call and tell us about it at 888-318-7884. We will have a conversation with you. My name is Thomas Graf. I am the fill in host today for Sci Kellett, the normal host who will be back with you in short order. And our guest today is author, speaker, podcaster, staff apologist Joe Heschmeyer who is doing a great job with all these callers so far in spite of of the water that he spilled on his shirt at the start of the show. Turns out that that did not dampen his apologetic abilities one bit, however much it might dampen his shirt instead. I got the pun before you did, Joe. I'm so proud of myself.
- [42:19]
C
That was good.
- [42:19]
B
So proud of myself.
- [42:21]
C
Very pleased with that. Yes.
- [42:23]
B
Finally, the one thing I crave more than anything else is Joe Heschmeyer's approval on a dad joke. And so, now that my day is made, let's go to Donna in Baton Rouge and see if we can make her day. Donna, thank you for hanging on the line. Go ahead with your question for Joe Heschmeyer.
- [42:38]
E
Hi. How are y'?
- [42:39]
C
All?
- [42:40]
B
Excellent.
- [42:40]
C
How are you? Good. How are you?
- [42:42]
E
I'm good.
- [42:43]
C
Good.
- [42:43]
E
I have two little comments. First, before I get to my question, one, Joe, I was listening to your book, Pope Peter, on my way home from work today. I just started chapter seven. I'm enjoying it very much.
- [42:55]
C
Wonderful. It is available in audiobook form for anyone who wants to get it@shop.catholic.com There's a buy one, get one deal. Okay.
- [43:02]
B
Indeed there is.
- [43:02]
C
Go on, Donna.
- [43:04]
E
Okay. And my second comment is, my husband's Baptist, but he has been. He wants to research church history and independently, you know. And so he asked me the other. The other week, have you ever heard the name Polycarp?
- [43:21]
C
I have.
- [43:22]
E
Yeah.
- [43:24]
C
Oh, yes, do that. Sorry. Yes.
- [43:29]
E
And so last night, we watched two little documentaries on Polycarp and on. On St. Ignatius of Antioch.
- [43:36]
C
Beautiful Polycarpe Diem.
- [43:39]
E
Yes, yes. So anyway, my question with him is, we've been discussing Mary, and in adoration the other week, I was reading my Bible and I came across this verse, and for some reason, just Mary just. Just like popped in my head with it. And it's in First John, chapter three. It's actually verse nine with it. And I don't know, just if you want to read it or want me to, but you can read it.
- [44:06]
C
Yeah.
- [44:06]
E
It seems like it just speaks of Mary. It just says, and those who have been born of God do not sin, because God seed abides in them. They cannot sin because they had been born of God. And just I didn't know if this would be an appropriate verse I could maybe use to point in that direction of Mary. I mean, who else would have been more filled with God in her than Mary?
- [44:33]
C
Yeah. So I think, you know, this is. This is how I would use it. I don't think you want to use it as a simple slam dunk proof. Like, this verse proves Mary is without sin. But I think it is fair to point this out. Like, if God fills you with his grace such that you don't sin. One thing we should take from that is that that doesn't mean you don't need a Savior. Because one of the most common objections I hear from people is, well, Mary couldn't have been without sin because she refers to our Lord as her savior in Luke 1. But here's the thing. You can save people in two different ways. You can save them by drawing them out of the mess that they've gotten themselves into, or you can save them from keeping themselves from getting in the mess in the first place. You know, David praises our Lord for saving him from going down into the pit. Does that mean. Well, since David's not in the pit, he doesn't need a Savior? No, it means he's saved. That's what it means. Like, if you know the guardrails keeping you from going off the edge, you wouldn't say they're not saving you because you didn't fall off the edge. You would say they are saving you. And if they're the thing keeping you from going off the edge in the first place. And so the reason Mary's without sin isn't because she doesn't need a Savior. The reason she's without sin is because God's seed abides in her perfectly and quite literally. The Son of God abided in her. And Mary is described as being full of grace even before this. And being full of grace, there's no room for sin. So I think if you understand it in that way, this at least gets past one of the most common objections. I would then want to connect that to the idea that the Ark of the Covenant was this incredibly holy vessel for the presence of the Lord in the old covenant, and that Mary is presented very clearly in the new Covenant as the new Ark of the covenant because she carries our Lord in her very womb. And. And that she's also presented as the new Eve. That Eve was a sinless virgin until she had an angelic visitation with a fallen angel who tempts her in the Garden of eden. In Genesis 3, Mary is a sinless virgin who has an angelic visitation from Gabriel and says yes, and brings Jesus into the world. And the early Christians recognize this. So if you want. If your husband is really into reading the early Christians on this point, you should read what people like Justin Martyr and Saint Irenaeus had to say on Mary is the new Eve in the first century. Because it really is. I mean, it really is incredible. It really is remarkable to see how quickly the early Christians recognized this Fact, I did a video on shameless popery for this, and there's a transcript of it from last year on Catholic.com and the title is Just why the Early Church Thought Mary Was the New Eve. And it explores some of that more in depth. And then if you want, I've addressed this before and people have as well, but comparing 2nd Samuel 6, where David goes with the ark into the hill country of Judah for three months and says, how can the ark of the Lord come to me? And then comparing that to Luke 1, where Mary goes into the hill country of Judah for three months and Elizabeth says, how is it that the mother of my Lord comes to me? And the parallels between the two passages are really striking and seem to point to Mary being the new ark of the covenant. That makes sense, right?
- [48:11]
E
Yes. I mean, I was looking at it as like anybody can be if they're full of God, the Holy Spirit and all. Then, yeah, like you said, there's no room for sin. Well, you know, she was, like you said, full of grace. So to me, yeah, this helps to show how you can be and live with, you know, and not sin if you're full of the full of God's grace and accepting.
- [48:34]
C
And Mary is wanting to do his will, Mary's preserved in a unique way as well. There's a singular grace where, you know, we are all given divine, divine grace that can help us in moments of temptation and struggle. But Mary has this throughout her entire life in such a way that she's able to say yes to God and notice sin consistently, thoroughly, throughout the entirety of her life. Again, not because she didn't need God, but because she was completely reliant upon Him.
- [49:04]
B
Donna, thank you so much for that question. I'm sorry, but we do have to move on to get to as many callers as we can in this hour. But thank you so much for calling. Hope you do call again. Let's go now over to David listening in North Dakota. David, go ahead with your question for Joe Heschmeier.
- [49:22]
D
Thank you. My question has to do with papal succession. Joe, I've heard you explain the basis for Peter being the first pope. And, you know, for the purpose of this question, you know, be fine to treat that as a given. But if we have Peter as first pope, then how do we, you know, where do we get the passage of the papacy? I think the next pope after Peter is supposed to be Cletus. And then, you know, further on throughout history, I don't find it anywhere in Scripture. And so I'm Wondering, you know, where we get that authority.
- [50:04]
C
Yeah, wait, sorry, the authority or the list? Because, I mean, obviously the list isn't going to be in Scripture if you say, like, where do we find, you know, Leo XIV in Scripture or something.
- [50:15]
D
Yeah, the authority. So I guess I should rephrase the question. Like, how do we know that, you know, Peter passed the papacy on to Cletus or, you know, sort of, where's our, you know, our record, or might say in more secular terms, like a paper trail.
- [50:37]
C
Oh, sure. Okay, wonderful.
- [50:39]
D
To where I can say, like, I know that Cletus is the next pope, and I know that the authority, the papacy, you know, went to Cletus, you know, because of this. And then I know that it went to the next pope after Cletus for, you know, this reason. And then, you know, the same question, as far as I know, repeats itself for each time we. We get a new pope.
- [51:02]
B
Right. It goes. It goes all the way down the line. Okay, yeah, thank you.
- [51:07]
C
Thank you, David. Yeah, that's very clear. So a few things to know. The first person that we have who gives us an exhaustive list is also the first person who gives us the list of the four Gospels. That is Irenaeus, and he's written in about 180. He is a disciple of Polycarp, who you just heard in the prior call, and Polycarp was himself a disciple of the Apostle John. So Irenaeus is one of our earliest and most reliable witnesses to early Christianity. And we rely on him for a lot of things that we wouldn't be able to know simply from the Bible itself. And in fact, we rely on him for knowing things like which books belong in the Bible on issues like Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. But he describes how Peter and Paul built up the Church of Rome and that there was a succession of bishops down to his own day, and that it is a matter of necessity. These are his words. It is a matter of necessity that every church should agree with this church on account of its preeminent authority. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate of this Linus. Paul makes mention in the epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus, and after him, in the third place, from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. And then he goes on and he lists every bishop down to the year 180. And we have other records that seem to match up with, you know, some of the details that we can confirm. There's Something called the Moratorian fragment that mentions this as well. And then you also have shortly after this, right around the year 200, Tertullian talks about how all of the churches founded by apostles kept written records. So in terms of paper trails, all of the ones founded by apostles had a paper trail where they listed who ordained whom and what was the order of bishops going down to their own day. And he says, but if there are any, he means any heresies here which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say, let them produce the original records of their churches. Let them unfold the role of their bishops running down in due succession from the beginning. And he goes on from there. But the point there is, we see as early as 200 that one of the things Christians pointed out to heretics is we've got paper trails of apostolic succession and you don't. And so we can show where your church came from and it's not from the apostles. You know, like, if you're talking to somebody today and you can say, hey, I know your denomination started here. I know that the church body you're a part of, like, this was a confederation of a bunch of different churches, and it started there, you can disprove that this is the church founded by Jesus Christ because it was founded by somebody else at a later date, Martin Luther or whomever. What the. This is a very Christian way of arguing, because this is how the Christians disproved heresies in the earliest days of the church. We have a written record trail going back to the time of the apostles, and you don't.
- [54:26]
B
David, thank you so much for that call. As you can tell, the music is playing, and that means we are about to go out to our hard break to end the first hour. But thank you very much for that call. David, please do call again if you want to hear a little bit more. That opens up a second line. There are two lines open now. Why aren't you catholic? Call and take. Tell us why and get in those two lines. 888-318-7884 is the number to call. 883-187-884. If you are not Catholic, we want to hear from you. And Joe Heschmeyer wants to talk to you. 888-318-7884. We will be back after this to do a whole nother hour of why aren't you Catholic? Don't go anywhere and we'll.
- [55:08]
C
Sam.