#12466 Why Do We Need the Apostles, Mary, and the Saints? – Why Aren’t You Catholic? - Joe Heschmeyer

Summary

Catholic Answers Live #12466

Main Theme:
Why Do We Need the Apostles, Mary, and the Saints? — Why Aren't You Catholic?
Date: November 20, 2025
Host: Thomas Graff (filling in for Cy Kellett)
Guest: Joe Heschmeyer, Catholic Answers Staff Apologist

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Episode Overview

This episode of Catholic Answers Live is part of the recurring "Why Aren't You Catholic?" format, where callers—many exploring Catholicism or wrestling with Church teachings—present their stumbling blocks or questions to staff apologist Joe Heschmeyer. Key areas tackled in this hour include the biblical and theological foundations of apostolic authority, intercession of the saints and Mary, the practice of infant baptism, the relationship between religion and relationship, and scandals or weaknesses sometimes witnessed among Catholic clergy. The episode is alive with listener stories of conversion, struggles, and unexpected joys, including several moving stories about family, faith, and children.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Do We Need the Apostles? (Caller: John, Washington)

[04:58–11:23]

• Caller Question: After walking a coworker through the historical lineage of the Church, John was met with: "Who said we need the apostles?"
• Joe's Core Response:
  • Jesus Himself chose the apostles ("Didn't Jesus think he needed the apostles?" — Thomas, 06:11).
  • Scriptural Basis:
    • Ephesians 4: God gave the Church apostles, prophets, pastors, etc., to build up the body and protect from doctrinal error.
    • Acts 15: Early Church dealt with heresy and false teaching through apostolic authority.
    • Romans 10: “How can men preach unless they are sent?”
  • The Church is built "top-down"—we don’t vote for our bishops or pope, paralleling the biblical model.
  • Cites historical dangers of congregational or democratic models, referencing the mob choosing Barabbas over Christ.
• Notable Quote:
  • "We don't believe in that [bottom-up] model. And more importantly, Jesus Christ doesn't believe in that model. He gave us apostles so that the Church can protect us from being carried to and fro by every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness and deceitful wiles." (Joe, 09:20)

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2. Do Catholics Have to Pray to Mary and the Saints? (Caller: Keith, Virginia)

[15:41–19:36]

• Caller’s concern: Heard from a Catholic nun that "you shouldn't bother Jesus with easy prayers; that's what Mary and the saints are for." Is it required to pray to saints?
• Joe’s Core Response:
  • Definitively opposes the "offload small prayers" concept as erroneous and not Catholic teaching.
  • Lumen Gentium (Vatican II): The Church “admonishes and encourages” devotion to Mary and the saints but warns against both "gross exaggerations" and "petty narrowmindedness."
  • Prayer to saints is strongly encouraged but not a legalistic necessity for Catholics.
  • Direct relationship with Jesus is primary; saints/Mary are supporters, not substitutes.
• Notable Quote:
  • "Don’t go to Mary or the saints in lieu of also going directly to Jesus Christ. This is in addition. It isn’t something where the Church mandates it." (18:30)

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3. Religion Versus Relationship (Caller: Jerome, Georgia)

[20:04–25:22]

• Caller’s tension: From a Messianic Jewish background, Christian friends say "I prefer a relationship over a religion." Caller sees faith as both/and.
• Joe’s Core Response:
  • Biblical faith is fundamentally covenantal—which means relationship structured by religion.
  • Marriage analogy: Would never say "just a relationship, not a legal marriage." Structure is vital.
  • Cites 1 Timothy 3 and James 1: "Religion" used positively in Scripture.
  • Critique of modern notion (esp. among some Protestants) that "religion is negative."
  • Eucharist as the supreme expression of the relational/covenantal bond—central to understanding why Catholicism is both relationship and religion.
• Notable Quotes:
  • "The idea of having a relationship in a non-religious way with God is utterly nonsensical. The term for what we call a structured relationship with God is a covenant." (21:14)
  • "A healthy relationship has norms and rules and boundaries." (21:56)

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4. Infant Baptism and Grace (Caller: Brianna, Indiana)

[29:35–37:26]

• Caller’s story: Evangelical/Pentecostal background, husband just entered OCIA and left atheism. Caller (formerly anti-Mary) now wrestling with infant baptism: "How can a 3-month-old be a new creation—what have they 'left behind'?"

• Joe’s Core Response:

  • Baptism is not something we do for God, but what God does for us—“born again” by water and Spirit (John 3).
  • Strong early Christian support: Irenaeus (AD 180) speaks of infants being "born again to God."
  • "Repent and be baptized": Not a strict order; sometimes belief precedes repentance, sometimes vice-versa.
  • Baptism heals from original sin—it's about God's initiative, not human achievement or age.

• Notable Quotes:

  • "Baptism isn’t something we do for God. Baptism is something God does for us." (31:57)
  • "He doesn’t make you wait to sin first before you’re allowed to join the family." (36:53)

• Memorable Moment:

  • Brianna shares emotional news: after infertility, prayers to God and tentative Marian prayers, they got a positive pregnancy test (36:29). The hosts and audience rejoice.

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5. Scandal in the Church—What If Clergy Violate Church Morality? (Caller: Owen, Long Island, NY)

[43:01–48:41]

• Caller’s Dilemma: Son is Protestant and resists papal authority. He struggles to respond when priests (like Fr. James Martin) appear to publicly contradict Catholic teaching on sexuality and sacramental sponsorship.
• Joe’s Core Response:
  • Frank about the scandal ("the answer is very clearly no"—to a priest allowing same-sex married men to be sponsors).
  • Cites Catechism 1255 on the requirements for sponsors/godparents.
  • Discusses complexities in bishops’ responses, but affirms that such abuses from clergy are condemnable and not a reason to dismiss Catholic doctrine as a whole.
  • Larger principle: Scandals highlight the need for doctrinal and moral clarity—don’t let individual failings obscure the Church’s core teaching and structure.
• Quote:
  • "This is not going to be the fulcrum by which the Church’s sexual ethic is proved or disproved... But it is a case where a priest is giving public scandal. And it’s good that there are bishops who have spoken out." (48:13)

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6. The Biblical Roots of Confession (Caller: Ryder, Knoxville, TN)

[49:41–54:52]

• Caller’s Uncle objects: “The Bible says, 'confess to one another,' so why go to a priest?” Is there a direct link between the biblical injunctions and Catholic confession?
• Joe’s Core Response:
  • All sin is corporate—it wounds the Body of Christ, not just the individual.
  • James 5:16: Confess to one another and pray for each other—applies universally among Christians as mutual support.
  • John 20: Jesus gives the apostles (and their successors) specific authority to forgive or retain sins.
  • Distinction: We should share faults with fellow Christians, but the priest, by Christ's institution, acts with unique authority.
• Notable Quote:
  • "The priest has the power to forgive sins, so we go to them in a special way." (54:47)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Jesus chose the apostles. So that’s our first clue. I think your clearest answer to that..." (Joe, 06:14)
• "We don’t believe in that model. More importantly, Jesus Christ doesn’t believe in that model." (Joe, 09:20)
• "Don’t go to Mary or the saints in lieu of also going directly to Jesus Christ. This is in addition… it isn’t something where the Church mandates it." (Joe, 18:30)
• "The idea of having a relationship in a non-religious way with God is utterly nonsensical... The term for what we call a structured relationship with God is a covenant." (Joe, 21:14)
• "Baptism isn’t something we do for God. Baptism is something God does for us." (Joe, 31:57)
• "He doesn’t make you wait to sin first before you’re allowed to join the family." (Joe, 36:53)
• Emotional highlight: Brianna’s announcement of pregnancy after infertility and prayers (including her first prayers to Mary for intercession) (36:29–36:48)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:58–11:23] - Apostolic authority and Church structure (John, Washington)
• [15:41–19:36] - Prayer to saints and Marian devotion—what is (and isn’t) required (Keith, Virginia)
• [20:04–25:22] - “Religion vs Relationship”—Biblical and covenantal understanding (Jerome, Georgia)
• [29:35–37:26] - Infant Baptism: God’s initiative, early Christianity, and family faith (Brianna, Indiana)
• [43:01–48:41] - Clerical scandal and how to defend the Church amid public failings (Owen, NY)
• [49:41–54:52] - Confession to one another vs. confession to a priest (Ryder, TN)

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Tone and Style

The episode is friendly, encouraging, occasionally jocular, with genuine empathy, especially when callers share personal struggles or joys. Joe Heschmeyer teaches with a blend of scriptural depth, reference to Church documents, historical context, and practical pastoral sense, always careful to distinguish between Church teaching and popular misconceptions or exaggerations.

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Conclusion

In this episode, Joe Heschmeyer addresses perennial questions and misconceptions about the necessity of apostolic authority, the place of Mary and the saints, the meaning of “religion” in Christianity, infant baptism, proper responses to scandal within Church leadership, and the biblical basis for the sacrament of confession. The calls reveal the heart and breadth of struggles and discoveries on the journey to (or within) Catholicism, from intellectual objections to deeply personal hopes and wounds. The answers consistently frame Catholic teaching as both faithfully historic and personally transformative, always seeking the balance between structure and relationship, tradition and living faith.

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For further exploration: Joe references his books The Early Church Was the Catholic Church and The Eucharist Is Really Jesus for in-depth coverage on several of the episode's themes. Callers and listeners are invited to deepen their journey with these resources and encouraged to keep seeking, asking, and sharing as they explore Catholicism.

Transcript

[Announcer]

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[Joe Heschmeyer]

Foreign.

[Thomas Graff]

Welcome back to CATHOLIC ANSWERS Live. It's why aren't you Catholic? That's what we want to know. That's what we want to talk with you about. There's one line open right now, so call 8883-187884-88318-7884 if you want to have a conversation with us. My name is Thomas Graff. I am the fill in guest today today for Cy Kellett, who will be back with us soon, as soon as tomorrow, I believe. Haven't had that confirmed to me personally, but he'll probably be back sooner rather than later. Again, it's why aren't you Catholic? Today? Our guest engaging these questions, or rather these answers for why they aren't Catholic, is Joe Heschmeyer, Staff apologist, speaker, author of books like the Eucharist Is really Jesus. The early church was the Catholic Church, Pope Peter and several others that escape my mind right now because they're not sitting on the table in front of me. Joe, I hope you'll forgive me for that, but are you ready to dive into some more?

[Joe Heschmeyer]

I am.

[Thomas Graff]

Okay. And just before we get to our callers and thank you callers for our patience, for your patience, rather, we've mentioned one shameless Popery episode I kind of raked you over the coals for at the beginning of last hour, but people should still check it out anyway. It was about the most and least spiritual, spiritually healthy diocese in America. But the most recent episode of shameless Popery was actually it's related to the question today, why aren't you Catholic? Because, Joe, if I'm right, you were essentially responding to an orthodox answer to the question why not be Catholic? Is that correct?

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Yeah. I mean, to put the episode in a nutshell, you can watch it if you want more, but you'll sometimes hear the objection, oh, you know, Eastern Orthodoxy has remained unchanging. You'll, you'll even hear people refer to unchanging Orthodoxy. And look at all these Catholics are always trying to modernize and change things, etc. And look, I'm all for not changing things that don't need changing. I'm not saying we should go and change a bunch of stuff, but I do think that this objection is is not as historically or theologically well supported as A lot of people realize, because liturgically, while there is obviously this beautiful and rich patrimony that Orthodox and Catholics share, there have been a lot of liturgical changes in the history of Orthodoxy, which Orthodox sources are actually quite open and straightforward about. There have also been a lot of theological changes, and some of these are very troubling. So, for instance, permitting divorce and remarriage for second and third marriages, you can get divorced and remarried, so you can have three wives, all alive within Orthodoxy. That's very hard to harmonize with Jesus's teaching that whoever does that is guilty of adultery. The Church can't sanction adultery any more than the Church can sanction, say, fornication or homosexuality or something like this. And so you can't have, you know, a church approved homosexual relationship or a church approved fornicating relationship. The Church obviously meets sinners wherever they are. But I looked at this as one of the fairest instances of Orthodoxy actually compromising with society rather than holding the tough Christian line. And there are other examples as well. Most recently, the Orthodox Church is bending on things like contraception and ivf, and there are some alarming developments on all of those fronts. So anyone who is of the view of like, oh, I need to become Orthodox instead of Catholic because Catholics are wanting to change their teachings and Orthodox or holding firm, I think the reality is a lot more complicated than that. So that's more or less what I argue in the episode. And some people receive that very well and some push back. Some we'll say.

[Thomas Graff]

And if you want to hear how it's a little more complicated than all that, then check out that episode of Shameless Popery. YouTube. On YouTube. Joe's channel, Shameless Popery. You can also support [e-mail] and you can listen to the audio version anywhere you get your podcasts. Shameless Potpourri is the name of the show. The name of this show is Catholic Answers Live. And the Catholic answers we're giving are answers to people telling us why they are not Catholic. We will move on. We'll move right along to John calling us from Washington. John, thank you for waiting patiently with your question. Go ahead for Joe Heschmeyer.

[John (Caller)]

Hey, really appreciate you guys taking the time. Joe, I'm a huge fan of your book. The Early Church Was the Catholic Church. That was really helpful for me in my faith journey. So thank you so much for that.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Thank you very much. I'm happy to hear it.

[Thomas Graff]

Available on shop.catholic.com yeah, absolutely.

[John (Caller)]

Everyone should get it. Also, my wife really Wants me to say hi. So hello from her. We're very excited. Yeah, thank you. So my question was about my co worker. I'm a lifelong Catholic and your guys's books have been super helpful for me. I got really inspired by you guys. I wanted to talk to my most anti Catholic co worker, who is a good friend of mine actually, and started talking to her about the faith, about the church, about, you know, how we know that the church is the church. And I even made a timeline going all the way from, you know, the start of the church to where we are now, kind of showing the connection between the early church and the Catholic Church today. And I pretty much got her all the way to the point where I said, listen, this is what the apostles handed down. This is what we got to do. And her response to that was she said, who said we need the apostles? And I was blown away. I was like, I don't even know.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

How to respond to that.

[Thomas Graff]

Didn't Jesus think he needed the apostles?

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah, Jesus chose the apostles. So that's, that's our first clue. I think your clearest answer to that. So, okay, let's do this. First of all, I love the work that you're doing, sharing the faith with non Catholics. And if there's anything we can do to help that. If you want a free book after this, you just stand the line and the store is yours. Just choose a book that you think you can't tell them that I just told you the story is yours. Because, you know, they might tell me that I can't give away the whole store. But if you want to choose a book that you think would be helpful in sharing the faith with others, please do so. I don't know what you have and haven't gotten from the Catholic Answers catalog, but Ephesians, chapter 4. St. Paul addresses this head on when he's talking about the gifts of God. And he said, and his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ until we attain to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood and to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the cunning of men, by their craftiness and deceitful wiles. So let's unpack that. That one of the things God does when he comes into the world in the person of Jesus Christ is he doesn't just say, here's a book, you figure it out. Because if he did that, we would all come to different interpretations of the book. As happens with a lot of books, you read it and you think it means one thing and somebody else reads it and it means something else to them. I mean, surely you remember high school English class where people get in interminable debates about what the author did or didn't mean about some detail.

[Thomas Graff]

Yeah. You're still wrong about the Great Gatsby, Joe. You're still wrong.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Exactly. I think it's a recipe for how to have a fun party in the 20s. I didn't get any of the bleak undercurrent, so. But the reality is he doesn't do that. Instead Jesus says he's going to build the church. He says, upon this rock I will build my church. And he shows us this. He chooses the 12 and he doesn't ask anyone's consent to say, are these leaders you want everybody agree on this doesn't do that at all. It's top down from the beginning, this is how the family is set up. You don't choose your parents, this is how the church is set up. You don't choose your bishop, you don't choose your Pope. That's the model of the family of God from the beginning. That's the model in the Old Testament, that's the model in the New Testament. And so I think what your co worker is doing is showing the logical terminus of a certain kind of Protestantism where it's congregational. The flock chooses their shepherd, the body chooses their head. It's a total inversion of the Christian model of leadership. We don't believe in that model. And more importantly, Jesus Christ doesn't believe in that model. He gave us apostles so that the church can protect us from being carried to and fro by every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness and deceitful wiles, that if it's left to popular appeal, that means, number one, the masses are sometimes persuaded in the wrong direction. There's one instance where we see a mass vote in the Bible and that's when Pontius Pilate says, do you want me to release you, Jesus of Nazareth or Barabbas? And the one time people get to vote, they choose wrong. And so that's, I don't know, maybe a red flag that that's not a very effective form of governance. Or when Jesus says, who do men say the Son of man is. And they say, some say John the Baptist, some say Elijah or one of the prophets, that the people can't agree and they're wrong. Like all of their choices are wrong and they don't even agree in the direction they're wrong. There's a reason Jesus doesn't give us a democracy of God, the People's Republic of God. It's top down leadership because the Holy Spirit is going to lead the leaders to protect the church from every wind of doctrine, from the cunning of men, kind of a populist appeal to go in the wrong direction and from the craftiness and deceitful wiles. And we see this in practice in Acts 15. A group of guys go out and start preaching a false version of the gospel that you have to receive circumcision in order to be saved. And the institutional church condemns them both for preaching wrong doctrine and for going out without permission. And so St. Paul can say in Romans 10, how can men preach unless they are sent that? You see this whole structure of top down leadership built into the church, both implicitly but also in moments like Romans 10 and in Acts 15 explicitly. And we need this to be protected from every wind of doctrine. And I think the history of Catholicism, which has survived 2000 years and the history of a lot of low church Protestantism that gets carried away by every strange doctrine shows you in practice why that's needed. That makes sense.

[John (Caller)]

Yeah, that makes total sense. Thank you so much. And also if I could just quickly ask if you could pray for my wife and I who were having our first child within the next hours, days, I'm not quite sure. Soon. Oh, wow.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Lori. All right, you know, boy or girl?

[John (Caller)]

Yeah, we're very excited. Baby boy. We're thinking Charles for his name and first kid. So very excited, very nervous.

[Thomas Graff]

Nice.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

What's your wife's name?

[John (Caller)]

Emma.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Okay, so Keith, Emma and Charles, please, everybody.

[Thomas Graff]

John.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Pray for them.

[Thomas Graff]

John, Emma.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Oh, I'm sorry, John, I was looking at the wrong name on there. John, Emma. Charles. Pray for Keith too. He's the next guy we got.

[Thomas Graff]

Yeah, why not? Yeah, yeah. All right. Yeah. If all of our listeners could remember to keep John, Emma and Charles in their prayers today. And yeah, best of luck and all the grace to you in the world, John, that first childbirth is. You never forget it. And hopefully for all the right reasons, not the bad ones. I don't know. Ours went ok.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

It was a pleasantly ominous thing to tell someone before the birth of their first child.

[Thomas Graff]

Ours went okay. All right, so in 100% of my experiences. It's been great too. I guess if you count my own birth, I think that went pretty well too. It was successful anyway. All right, enough of that. This is getting weird. John, as Joe said, hang on the line and we would love to send you a free Catholic Answers book of your choice. Please do hang on the line. And for anyone listening who is interested in getting a free book themselves, there's a very simple way to do that and that's to go to shop.catholic.com and buy a book and you will get another book for free. In the ultimate Buy one, get one flash sale we're having this week, we are giving resources away with this buy one get one. No promo code needed. You shop around, find any two items on shop.catholic.com under the ultimate Bogo category and and you will get the lower priced item for free. If you buy four items, you get two of them for free. On and on and on in multiples of two. For every two you choose, you get one for free. This special will not last long. It's today through Thursday. Tomorrow, November 20th at midnight, this special offer ends. So go to shop.catholic.com, shop under the ultimate Bogo category and again with no promo code needed. For every two items you pick, you get one for free. We will be back to take more questions for Joe Heschmeyer right after this.

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[Thomas Graff]

Welcome back to CATHOLIC Answers live. My name is Thomas Graff. I am the fill in host today for Cy Kellett, who will be back with us soon. And our guest this hour is Joe Heschmeyer, staff apologist at Catholic Answers, and he is taking calls from people who are not Catholic or people calling on behalf of those who are not Catholic. Lines are all full right now, but you can call just in case someone drops off the line at 888-3186. Keith is listening in Clifton Virginia listening on Catholic.com Keith, you are next up with Joe Heschmeyer. Go ahead with your question.

[Keith (Caller)]

Thank you for taking my call. Joe, does your shirt have any holes.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

In does at the top and does for the buttons? It's got a couple by the arm sleeves.

[Keith (Caller)]

If it was just holy water that you spilled on you holy shirt.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Nice. That's good.

[Thomas Graff]

Now the shoes on the other foot. Joe, that's how all of us react whenever you make a casual. Nice to see that. Nice to see you. You react that way for once.

[Owen (Caller)]

Okay.

[Keith (Caller)]

I'm probably about 90% moving toward cast Catholicism. I'm in OCIA now, but I was raised LCMS Lutheran, which is the conservative group. I went two years, a little over two years of Concordia Seminary. The Lutheran Seminary in St. Louis. Yeah.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

It was Kendrick Lennon. We shared a parking lot with them for a while. Oh yeah.

[Keith (Caller)]

Yeah. Well, I dig into a little deeper the, the topics that they go through in ocia and so that kind of leads me to back in the mid teens, 20 teens, 2014, 2017. My daughter was on Team USA gymnastics team.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Wow.

[Keith (Caller)]

And yeah, and she had her Bella Carola said she had to practice in Rancho Santa Margarita, just the county north of you guys and St. And San Diego. And she, she attended JSerra Catholic High School. And one of the nuns told her in one of the classes that you don't need to pray. The, the, the issues to pray. Let me see if I can resay this. Don't, don't, don't bother Jesus so much with the easy prayers. That's why you have Mary and the saints to go to. And I know that cannot be Catholic.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Nope.

[Keith (Caller)]

And, and my, my view is, is Jesus capable of listening to all of our prayers and is he capable of answering them? I would hope we all say yes.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Right.

[Keith (Caller)]

So.

[Jerome (Caller)]

Why.

[Keith (Caller)]

So is it mandatory to become Catholic to pray to Mary and the saints? Do I have to pray the Mariana Saints to be Catholic?

[Joe Heschmeyer]

No. It's earnestly recommended. Lumen Gentium, Second Vatican Council, in paragraph 67 talks about how the church admonishes and encourages devotion to Mary in particular, but to all the saints to be generously fostered. But also exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God. In other words, preachers shouldn't downplay Mary. They shouldn't write her off, but they also don't want to say exaggerated things like don't go to God with your minor stuff. Give that stuff to Mary. That's the kind of stuff that the church is saying, don't do that. Like, that's, that is not true. And it's not helpful to give that view of like, so, so, yeah, all you should take away from that, I suppose, is number one, that what your daughter heard, if that's an accurate representation, is not what the church teaches or has ever taught on the relationship of Jesus and Mary with prayer. Mary's message, I mean, her last words in the Gospel of John are at the wedding feast of Cana where she says, do whatever he tells you. Mary wants us to have a greater devotion to her son. That's what she wanted on earth and that's surely what she wants in heaven as well. But even more than that, Jesus wants to have a personal relationship with us as well. So don't go to Mary or the saints in lieu of going to God. Don't go to Mary or the saints in lieu of also going directly to Jesus Christ. This is in addition, and if it's something worth a struggle for you, it isn't something where the church, you know, mandates it. Like, you are not required by some kind of Catholic law or something like this to pray the rosary. You're not required to have any prayers to Mary or the saints. Now, we think it's good, we encourage it, but it's not a make or break issue in terms of membership in the church.

[Thomas Graff]

Keith, thank you so much for that question. Appreciate you calling in. We do have a lot of callers on the line, so I am going to keep things moving. Now. Brianna is calling from Indiana, listening on YouTube. No, we just lost Brianna. Right. As I was saying that we lost her. I'm so sorry about that. Brianna, please do call back if that was a mistake. So instead we will go to Jerome calling from Atlanta, Georgia, watching on YouTube. Jerome, you are on the air now with Joe Heschmeier. Go ahead.

[Jerome (Caller)]

Hey, how are you guys doing tonight?

[Thomas Graff]

Great. How are you doing?

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Great.

[Keith (Caller)]

I'm hanging in there, man.

[Jerome (Caller)]

Thanks for asking.

[Thomas Graff]

Aren't we all?

[Jerome (Caller)]

Joe, I just wanted to say thank you so much for what you do, you and Trent. I'm actually looking at your guys books on my shelves. You guys really helped me coming into the church this past year on the Easter vigil. So I just wanted to say first and foremost, thank you.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

I'm happy to hear it. So thank you and welcome home. Congratulations. Wonderful.

[Jerome (Caller)]

Thank you so much. My question for you is I encounter it a lot with My customers in the line of work that I'm in, the whole, I prefer a relationship over a religion. And why do you focus on the religion? You just only ask for a relationship. And coming from a messianic Jewish household, I'm ethnically Jewish. I've always been taught the religion is the relationship. That's one of the only ways that we can have the relationship with the deity. But it seems like there was a shift in the definition of the word during the Enlightenment period. I'm not entirely sure. I was hoping you could give me a way to respond so I don't nerd out on my customers like I know I have a tendency to do.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Okay, first of all, I love the whole way you've already thought about this, and I think you're right. Coming from a Jewish background, the answer to this should be very clear. That the idea of having a relationship in a non religious way with God is utterly nonsensical. Like the term for what we call a structured relationship with God is a covenant, right? Like that's the biblical term. And that's so much the theme of what Christianity is about, that the term Testamentum in Latin is a rough translation of covenant. And we name the books the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, the Old Testament and the New Testament. Because the whole thing is God wants a relationship with his people. So it's true that we're called to a relationship with God, but a healthy relationship has norms and rules and boundaries. In the same way that if somebody said like, oh, why are you so worried about being married to your wife? It's the relationship that matters, not the, you know, not the legal stuff, you would find that hopefully to be an absurd juxtaposition, like, well, of course I want a relationship with my wife, but I also want one that is like healthy and properly structured before God. And the term for that in this case is a marriage. But that covenantal idea of having a structured, healthy relationship, this is all over scripture. So St. Paul speaks in first Timothy 3 of the mystery of our religion. James 1 says, if any man thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue, but deceives his heart, this man's religion is vain. My point, there is religion is used in the Bible in a positive way. And there's a whole generation of modern Protestants. It's not all Protestants. To be clear, there's a whole generation of modern Protestants who think of religion as a negative thing we need to be free of so we can have a relationship. Which shows a gross misunderstanding of Scripture. A gross misunderstanding of religion and a very unhealthy understanding of relationships. Like you can't even have a healthy relationship with your wife if you don't realize it's got rules and regulations and boundaries built in. Even like, look, this weekend I'm moving. And you know what I didn't do is ask a bunch of my 40 year old friends to come and help me move for pizza and beer. Because it would be an abuse of the current status of our relationship. Now, a lot of them would have said yes, but it felt wrong to impose on them in that way. Our relationship might have been different when we were 22 and had more free time and less money and all, you know, all of those things. A healthy relationship, a friendship, a family relationship, a marriage. Our relationship with God has boundaries. And the term for that biblically is a covenant with this exchange of persons. And that's what religion is. So I cover this in a much greater depth in chapter two of my book. The Eucharist is really Jesus. So I'm interested in hearing your response, but also if you want to stick on the line and give your name, then we'd be happy to give you a copy of the book as well.

[Jerome (Caller)]

Oh, man, I was actually about to say that's the only copy of one of your books I don't own.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Well, they see if you, if you'd read that, you wouldn't have.

[Thomas Graff]

To read it. And don't call again, Jerome.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Do your homework.

[Thomas Graff]

Just kidding.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

But yeah, I'm thrilled. So, yeah, Chapter two of that book, I talk about how if you want to understand Christianity, you need to understand the idea of covenant. And if you want to understand the idea of covenant, you need to understand the Eucharist. Because given how central covenant is to the story of Christianity, it's shocking that Jesus mentions the covenant exactly one time. And that's at the Last Supper when he holds up the chalice and declares it the new covenant in his blood. That this is the linchpin to understanding Christianity is getting covenant theology right. And the one thing Jesus wants us to understand that he mentions explicitly in connection with the covenant is the Eucharist. Because in that Eucharist we have the exchange of God and man. And this is where we see what a personal relationship with Jesus Christ looks like in its most intimate form. So it's relationship, it's religion, it's covenant. It's all wrapped up in one. That's what the Eucharistic communion is all about.

[Thomas Graff]

Joe. I'm sorry, not Joe. Jerome. Thank you very much for that call. And as Joe said, just hang on the line and give your information to Edgar and he will send you a copy of Joe's book the Eucharist is really Jesus and you will have completed the Joe Heschmeyer shelf on your bookshelf. You will have the full set, which is all that anyone could ask for. I'm also putting out a call right now to any college students in Joe Heschmeyer's area saying that he will feed you pizza and beer this weekend if you help him move. As a former college student myself, I know that there's there are few currencies more valuable than those two things he will card you. So no under 21 year olds show up expecting beer, but anyone can show up helping Joe Heschmeyer move his house. Joe Heschmeyer lives in Kansas City, which is such a great Catholic diocese, and we'll be back to hear more from him on why aren't you Catholic? Right after this.

[Announcer]

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[Announcer]

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[Thomas Graff]

Matt Swaim here. Tomorrow on the Sunrise Morning show, we'll get more make ahead recipes for Thanksgiving from Rita Heichenfeld, plus news, weather, sports and a whole lot more. Now back to CATHOLIC Answers. Welcome back to CATHOLIC ANSWERS Live. Thomas Graff, social media manager, filling in for Si Kellett. Today on why aren't you Catholic? 888-318-7884 is the number to call. I'm the social media manager and I'm also Joe's move manager, once again telling all college students in Joe's area to help him move this weekend because moving is terrible. He told me over the break it's only like five blocks. So, like you can get your steps in that way.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Yeah, that's not gonna be far. Yeah, exactly. Just carry boxes. Don't even put them on a truck, just carry them.

[Thomas Graff]

Just carry the boxes, get your steps and cardio in and then balance it all out. Play for the tie with the pizza and beer afterwards. Brianna in Indiana, we thought we didn't have you. We thought you dropped, but as it turned out, that was just a small mistake on our end. We do still have you, Brianna in Indiana, and you are listening on YouTube. And now you are on the air with Joe Heschmeyer. Sorry for the mix up earlier, but go ahead with your question now.

[Brianna (Caller)]

That's okay. Thank you for taking my question. So just a small amount of backstory. My husband is an OCIA and he was atheist for 29 years and he has now started a journey into Catholicism. I was raised even charismatic, evangelical, non denominational technically, but leaning more towards Pentecostal. So getting out of the ideas of like, like sola fide and like sola scriptura and all that, like, getting away from those ideas has been very scary for me. I was told I was, I mean, I was blatantly taught that the Catholic Church was evil. I myself, through conversations with my husband realized that I did not only not like it, I an intense hatred for Mary.

[Keith (Caller)]

Wow.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

But.

[Brianna (Caller)]

Yeah, and I said some very ridiculous things to him. Like, and my eyes have really been open to a lot. But something I struggle with a lot is infant baptism. And I would really like to fully understand infant baptism and why we do it, the things that I see because, like learning about the Eucharist, learning about the presence in the Eucharist was my husband explained it to a Way that made me see it whenever he was like, you know, the Bible literally says to eat my flesh and drink my blood. The Bible really says that. And then came I said, but the Bible also says to repent and be baptized. And in Acts it says that. And then in Corinthians, in second Corinthians it says, you know, like, you are a new creation, the old has passed away. And I just guess I just don't understand what a three month old has done to make that old them pass away and become a new creation.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Oh, what have any of us done to make the old us pass away? I think the answer would have to be nothing. That baptism isn't something we do for God. Baptism is something that God does for us. So in John 3, when Jesus is talking to Nicodemus, he compares it to the experience of being born. He says, you have to be born again or born from above of water and the Spirit. And the early Christians universally, unanimously recognized this as a reference to being baptized. That baptism is this union of water and spirit. And in First Peter 3, when we hear about Noah and his family being saved through water, Peter says in 1st Peter 3, 21, baptism which corresponds to this now saves you. So think about it this way. Think about all the animals on Noah's Ark, or the members of Noah's family who hadn't helped build the ark, any kids who might have been there. Think about children being born. What did any of them do to earn that? And the answer is nothing. Does that make sense?

[Brianna (Caller)]

Yes, yes, that does make sense. That makes a lot of sense that.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Jesus says, like, let the little children come unto me. But it's not because they've done anything to earn it. Like, baptism is, is the doorway into the church. It is the fulfillment of what had been done with circumcision. And that was certainly done for infants. And so the early Christians talk about this, you know, like with infant baptism specifically. So Irenaeus writing in about 180, again, the guy who gives us Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is the four gospels or like, is the first. He's the oldest source we have telling us that says that Christ came to save all through means of himself. All I say, who through him are born again to God? Infants and children and boys and youths and old men. And so it's this idea that being born again, which explicitly again, is tied to baptism in the writings of Irenaeus. And all the early Christians who talk about this, they recognize john3 is about being born by the power of God. And so like what, what does an infant have to do to repent of nothing in terms of personal sin, but they are healed of original sin, this original woundedness in the nature. And so repent and believe doesn't mean you have to repent before you can believe and repent and be baptized. Doesn't mean you have to repent before you can be baptized. Like, if you think about it, when Jesus says repent and believe, a lot of us repent because we believe, not the other way around. He's not giving you a chronological list saying you have to do A and then B. He's saying you have to do these two things. You have to repent and you have to believe. You might believe first and then repent. You might repent first and then believe. You got to do both. Well, similarly, you have to believe and be baptized. You might believe first and then be baptized or vice versa. But people trying to add a chronology in there that you're not allowed to be baptized until you first sin so that you can repent are imposing a very strange man made set of rules that is totally contrary to how the earliest Christians understood Jesus's instructions on baptism.

[Thomas Graff]

Brianna, does that help you out?

[Brianna (Caller)]

It does. I just wanted to add one comment. It's so ironic that you literally, you just talked about Irenaeus, because my husband, he's so into everything and he, we got a puppy and he said, I, we have to name this puppy a church father name. He gave me the options of Athanasius and Irenaeus and we named our puppy Irenaeus.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Beautiful.

[Brianna (Caller)]

I don't believe in coincidence at all. And for that to happen, for you to just bring that up, and that's two, two callers ahead of me was also talking about, you know, how they were about to have a child. My husband and I have suffered with infertility where we were diagnosed with infertility in 20, in 20, 23 and Saturday, I don't know. But I've been praying, I've been praying to God. And I've also been attempting to pray to Mary for intercession as well. And we got a positive pregnancy test.

[Thomas Graff]

Oh, glory to God.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Glorie, that's beautiful. I was hoping that's where you were going with that. Well, now you've already got a baby name. If it's a boy, you got Athanasius left over. The dog didn't take it.

[Thomas Graff]

That's right. That's right.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Sorry I'm crying.

[Brianna (Caller)]

That was just real work there in my life. So thank you so much for that.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Glory To God. Hey, Brianna, if you would. If you want to stay on the line and give your information. My book, the Early Church was the Catholic Church has a whole chapter in there talking about what the early Christians believed about baptism and why. And it has that line from Irenaeus about how Christ comes to redeem everybody, including babies. And this is one of the nice, clearest instances that we're all meant to be born again. Like, God wants everyone in his family, and he doesn't make you wait to sin first before you're allowed to join the family.

[Thomas Graff]

And, Brianna, by the way, there are a lot more church father names in that book, so a lot more names for dogs, kids, cats, fish, whatever else you bring into your household. A lot more name ideas.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

If you have a fish. Polycarp, because it's a carp.

[Thomas Graff]

Yep. Or if you have a lot of fish, then the whole tank is polycarp. There's many fish. The possibilities are endless. Brianna, I was going to ask if. Is your husband Catholic already? Because, like, I. I only know Catholic people who name their kids or their pets or whatever, something like Irenaeus or athletics. Yeah, I know, but I was gonna ask if he's Catholic already regardless, because again, I only know Catholic people who name their kids that. But that just means he's. That just means he's really going full bore into this with so much gusto.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

So I think he should be allowed to come in early. You can take this to the priest.

[Thomas Graff]

And say, that might be.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Somebody said on the radio.

[Thomas Graff]

Yeah, that might be.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Naming your dog after a church father is a good sign you're ready.

[Thomas Graff]

That's right. Well, thank you so much for that beautiful call, Brianna, and for sharing your joyous news with us and all our listeners. Please pray for Brianna and her husband and for their little one as well, that everything goes well with them. Thank you.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

I think you're probably talking to the two biggest pro baby members of the Catholic Answers team, at least on the male side of the staff.

[Thomas Graff]

There's an argument to be sure.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Yes.

[Thomas Graff]

Yes.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

I think you actually clearly have the number one spot. So before he had his own child, Thomas was famous around the office of going nuts. Anytime somebody showed pictures of their baby or, like, brought their baby into office.

[Thomas Graff]

I had to get a selfie.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Know that we're rejoicing with you, Brianna.

[Thomas Graff]

Yes. And now that I got my own baby, he's cuter than every other baby in existence. I just have to say that. So I've tempered down a little bit on my enthusiasm because I go home to him every night instead. So, yeah, thank you so much for that call, Brianna. That was a real grace to have you, to have you share those details of your life with us. That's going to take us to our final break. And before we get into that final break, I'm going to tell you one last time about the Ultimate Bogo Flash Sale. I'm going to keep telling you over and over again because it's just a massive, tremendous deal that you can take advantage of. There's over 450 resources you can choose from in the ultimate bogo category on shop.catholic.com you go to shop.catholic.com big old banner right away. You can't miss it. Ultimate Bogo category. Click there to go into that category and browse. As I said, Over 450 different resources we have available. Shop around, find any two items in that category, place them in your cart. You get the lower priced item for free. No promo code needed, just simple as that. Two items, one for free. It goes on and on for every multiple of two you put in today through Thursday. Tomorrow is the last day you can take advantage of this all the way until midnight tomorrow, Thursday, November 20th. Visit the Ultimate Bogo category on shop.catholic.com to take advantage of this tremendous deal. We will be back to wrap up this tremendous show right after this.

[Announcer]

You're listening to Catholic Answers Live. Underwriting for Catholic Answers Live is provided by Real Estate for Life. Real Estate for Life connects home buyers and sellers to real estate agents while supporting pro life organizations on the [e-mail] he is only one of four popes.

[Thomas Graff]

Honored as the great Matthew Bunsen and.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

The Doctors of the church.

[Announcer]

St Leo I was pope at a time when Roman civilization was being overrun by barbarian armies. He stood as a light in the darkness and even saved the city of Rome from destruction by Attila and the hunt.

[Thomas Graff]

Leo died in 461.

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[Announcer]

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[Thomas Graff]

Welcome back to Catholic Answers live. It's been a great almost two hours hanging with Joe Heschmeier, taking calls from a whole host of people, hearing a lot of great news about people having babies out there, especially those who thought that they wouldn't be able to anymore. It's always so glorious when we hear stories about people who are overcoming that cross of infertility. So once again, pray for Brianna and her family, who were our previous callers, that everything goes well with them. Joe Heschmeyer is our guest. He is the author of books like the Eucharist Is really Jesus, the Early Church Was the Catholic Church, and Pope Peter. He is the host of the Shameless Popery podcast. And the next person Joe will be talking to is Owen, who is listening from Long Island, Tennessee. Not Long Island, Tennessee. What in the world happened there? Long Island, New York is what it says on the document in front of me.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

It is a collar from Long island and a collar from Tennessee. They are actually separate people. Tennessee is vaguely shaped like a long Island. Yes. Think the surrounding area is water.

[Thomas Graff]

I think we've put it all together now as to what exactly went on in my brain when that happened. And Owen is listening. I'm going to get this right. He's listening on YouTube. And Owen, you are now finally on the air with Joe Heschmeyer. Go ahead with your question.

[Owen (Caller)]

Hi, guys. Thank you for taking my call. I do appreciate it. I love all the work you guys do.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Joanne, are you sure you're in Tennessee and not Long Island? I'm just hearing your accent.

[Thomas Graff]

This one is in Long Island.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Oh, okay. Sorry.

[Thomas Graff]

Yeah. Now Joe got it wrong.

[Owen (Caller)]

So like I said, I watched, I listened to Shameless Potpourri. I have your book right here. The first church was the Catholic Church. I guess, you know, I've been a lifelong Catholic, but I really came back strongly into my faith in the last couple of months. Going to Mass, confession, the rosary looking, reading the catechism. My question is, I, I was gonna make it a two part question, but I've been going through this in my head since, since I called in. My son's a Protestant. I have approached the situation with him about being a Catholic, but one of the things that I know that they don't accept is the Pope. I don't know. I know Peter was our first Pope, but like, I see things like the Pope meeting with Father James Martin and just recently Father James Martin in the Church St. Paul the Apostle in Manhattan. He officiated at the communion, the confirmation communion of two married men. And then Father Bishop Strickland brought it up at the United States Council of Catholic Bishops of, you know, they need to address that. So my thing is, if I was to do that, because I would like to preach my faith, but sometimes those questions will come up. How do you rationalize that and how do you explain that to people? Especially when the catechism says that that's not proper, it's a mortal sin. If I do a mortal sin, I have to go to confession before I receive Holy Eucharist. So I'm just trying to understand how would I approach that if someone questioned.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Me on that in terms of. I mean, you can just say this is not what's supposed to be happening. I mean, the fact that a bishop called it out, specifically at a national Catholic Bishops conference. Imagine a priest doing something so egregious that it gets called out in that way. So if the question is, should he have done that? The answer is very clearly no. Paragraph 1255 of the Catechism says for the grace of baptism to unfold the parents help is important. So too is the help of the godfather and godmother who must be firm believers, able and ready to help the newly baptized child or adult on the road of Christian life. The task is a truly ecclesial function officium. The whole ecclesial community bears some responsibility for the development and safeguarding of the grace given at baptism. That there is a sacred duty you take on in being a godparent or a sponsor. And so the idea that it's appropriate to take that role on to someone you're having an immoral sexual relationship with, with no intention of repentance, no intention of, you know, turning your life over to Christ in this radical way of saying we're not actually married to each other and all of that, like it. It is a, a gross violation of everything the church believes on this issue and it deserved the public rebuke that it got. That said, I think there is maybe a generational and broader cultural divide about how people view the ministry of Father James Martin. There are people I know and respect who think that he's really well intentioned and is, you know, trying to reach marginalized people and share the gospel with them. And there are people that think that he is a wolf in sheep's clothing and using this as kind of a veneer while undermining the Church's sexual teaching in both word and especially in deed. I think this most recent act was a provocation that points to the second of those. But I think that people who take the first one are being charitable and generous in their interpretation. Maybe not as discerning, maybe not as wise as serpents, but if you're going to fail to be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves, it's much better to fail at the serpent like part to, to be a little overly trusting. And so I don't think people who meet with Father James Martin are, you know, saying, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. We also want to destroy the Church's sexual teaching. You might find those. But I think in many cases it's, it's people who, who just say, hey, the people of same sex attraction are a marginalized community that needs the Gospel, they need Jesus, they need people ministering to them. And they're right about all that. I think it is fair to question some of the methods and approaches and things that Father Martin has said, but the idea of like, we should have outreach to people, same sex attraction. Right on. Like that. That's absolutely true. So that's what I would say to that. Like, this is not going to be the fulcrum by which the Church's sexual ethic is proved or disproved. This is not going to be the make or break issue that determines whether someone should or shouldn't be Catholic. But it is a case where a priest is giving public scandal. And it's good that there are bishops who have spoken out and said, this is inappropriate, this shouldn't be happening.

[Thomas Graff]

Owen, does that help you out?

[Owen (Caller)]

Yeah, it does, actually. I appreciate that very much because I saw when Father Strickland did it, Bishop Strickland did it at the council and no one said anything. So it was just like, it just took me back. And I know that if I ever need to defend my faith, I want to be able to do so and do it in the right way. So, yeah, I appreciate it.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Yeah. I think the particular way he did it was maybe it was in the. I believe, if I'm not mistaken, it was in the middle of another procedural thing. So I think a lot of bishops maybe didn't say anything because it was perceived as off topic, not as unimportant. I think in a different context, you might have had more bishops. He would speak up. And I think there's also a thought of this is probably most appropriate coming from his own bishop or the bishop of the diocese more than another bishop. Bishops tend to be a little cautious about publicly calling out bad priests in somebody else's diocese. In the same way, you might be a little careful about critiquing badly behaved kids in another Person's family.

[Thomas Graff]

Oh, and thank you so much for that call. We hope you do call again. Let's move on now because we're getting close to the end of the show. Let's move on now to Ryder, who is in Tennessee. Ryder is in Knoxville, Tennessee. He is also watching us on YouTube. Ryder, you are on the air with Joe Heschmeier. Go ahead with your question.

[Ryder (Caller)]

Hey, how are you guys doing?

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Doing great. How are you doing, Ryder?

[Ryder (Caller)]

Really good. I've had such an interesting time listening to John and Brianna, and I just wanted to say that I had a dream last night that I had an infant son, and I've never had a dream like that before. So I find it very coincidental that two previous callers have been talking about children.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Call back in a few months and let us know whether this was prophetic or not.

[Thomas Graff]

Yeah. Can I ask, are you married, Ryder?

[Ryder (Caller)]

I'm engaged to be married as of Halloween.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

All right, hopefully. Hopefully there's no pregnancies yet, but hopefully there will be very soon. Yep.

[Ryder (Caller)]

Not yet, but that's what I'm hoping for.

[Thomas Graff]

All right, I think there may be a little bit to this.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Funny. You guys are.

[Ryder (Caller)]

It's so funny. You guys are pro. You said you're the two most pro children.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

There might be some people who challenge us for that in the office, but we'll put up a fight.

[Thomas Graff]

I'm wear that badge proudly.

[Ryder (Caller)]

And another thing I just wanted to say, well, I'm praying for both John, his family, and Brianna. And also there are two kids at my parish. One is. Was born a couple years ago, and the other one is, like, four maybe, and their names are Irenaeus and Athanasius.

[Thomas Graff]

Get out. Get out of here.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

What? Love it.

[Ryder (Caller)]

I've been tickled listening to these callers.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

I'm loving it.

[Thomas Graff]

All right, what?

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Sorry, go ahead. No, I was going to ask you. Go ahead. What do you have as a question?

[Thomas Graff]

My mind is reeling right now. I'm, like, forgetting to host because of.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

The question before the show ends.

[Thomas Graff]

Yeah, that is the actual job here. What is the question?

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Okay, I'll go, but thank you.

[Ryder (Caller)]

So I have two questions. We probably won't be able to get to the second one, but I was talking to my uncle, like, an hour ago, and we were talking about the apostolic faith, and he said he thinks confession is kind of weird, and he's pretty sure it says in the Bible to confess your sins to one another. So also, I'm coming into the church. I'm going to be Catholic, So this is More of a question for him. But like, I did a cursory glance online of what people had to say about that, and I heard people using that, that biblical text as proof of confession, but not really like the distinction between what is James really talking about when he says confess to others and does that have to do with the sacrament of confession that we have now? Is there like a, is there a relationship, a direct relationship there?

[Joe Heschmeyer]

Got it. That's a very good question. And the answer is yes. But I think he's meaning something broader. So one of the things he's saying is, you know, you'll find people who say, oh, I can just go directly to God, and that's it. And by all means, you should go directly to God. If you sin, the first thing you should do is ask God for forgiveness. Before you go to confession, before you do anything else, go directly to God, ask for forgiveness. There are times also where your sin has really harmed somebody else. You'll know this pretty soon when you get married. And there's a real sense in which all of our sins harm others, including the entire body of Christ. When one part of the body suffers, the whole body suffers. St. Paul tells us in First Corinthians 12. And so, just as we can all benefit from the holy deeds of the saints, where the saints, even the saints on earth, the saints in heaven, the saints on earth, all of the good things build up the whole church. And we're told this explicitly in Scripture, like in Ephesians 4 when St. Paul talks about the building up of the church through the giving of all these different ministries. But the flip side to that is people who abuse that, people who act in a sinful way, even in so called like private sin, are harming the entire body of Christ, they're harming the entire church, even if nobody else finds out about your sin. So one of the reasons we go to other people when we sin is because we realize that all sin harms not only our relationship with Christ the head, but also with the church's body. So when James says in James 5:16, therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed, he's reminding us of two things. Number one, that all of our sin is corporate and so it should be taken to the body. And number two, that there is a power in intercessory prayer for one another, because he goes on in the next line to say the prayer of a righteousness man has great power and its effects. So we go to other people to pray for us. But here's the kicker. You should do that with everybody, with your neighbor, your brother and sister in Christ, but in a special way. You go to a priest because Jesus says in John 20, he breathes on the apostles and said peace be with you, as the Father have sent me. Even so I send you. Then breathing on them, he says, receive the Holy Spirit. If you if you forgive the sins of any, they're forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they're retained. So everyone we should go to with sins. The priest has the power to forgive sins, so we go to them in a special way.

[Thomas Graff]

Ryder, thanks so much for that call and for finishing us strong on today's show. Joe, thanks so much for two great hours.

[Joe Heschmeyer]

My pleasure. Congrats everybody. Having marriages and babies.

[Thomas Graff]

Everything I'm saying this show is brought to us by Saints Irenaeus and Athanasius and hopefully they come through strong for us again tomorrow right here, God willing on Catholic Answers Live.