Catholic Answers Live: What Does the Church Say About Psychedelics?

Episode #12467 | November 20, 2025
Guest: Steve Kramp | Host: Cy Kellett

Overview

This episode explores the Catholic Church's perspective on psychedelic drugs, their growing cultural and therapeutic significance, and the spiritual, moral, and societal implications of their use. Steve Kramp, Catholic writer, educator, and former Humanities department chair, joins host Cy Kellett for a candid, nuanced discussion that moves beyond simple prohibitions to consider history, psychology, spirituality, and Church teaching.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Has the Church Spoken on Psychedelics?

• The Catechism addresses drug use generally, primarily in paragraph 2291:
  • “The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct cooperation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.”
    • (Steve Kramp, reading Catechism, 07:00)
• Therapeutic Exception: Use is permitted only on “strictly therapeutic grounds”—not personal whim or self-diagnosis.
• The Church leaves space for development and further discussion as society and medicine evolve.

2. Society’s Rash Approach

• Society tends to rush major drug policy changes (e.g., legalization of marijuana) without full understanding of long-term consequences and deeper moral implications.
  • Quote:
    “We get one news report, and now all of a sudden, everybody's all in ... we just didn't think about them.”
    (Cy Kellett, 06:22)

3. What Are Psychedelics & What Do They Do?

• Classic Psychedelics: LSD, psilocybin (magic mushrooms), peyote, ayahuasca, iboga, Amanita muscaria (“fly agaric”).
• These drugs:

  • Are much more potent than cannabis.

  • Can result in permanent transformations of personality, beliefs, and personal purpose.

  • Often appeal to those dissatisfied or disconnected from themselves or society.

  • “Personal transformation is often the point ... there are these amazing, basically conversion experiences, except they're not ... oriented towards Christ ... it's instead oriented towards this drug and this experience.”
    (Steve Kramp, 11:57)

4. Cultural Context Matters

• In indigenous cultures, psychedelics are used within ritual and have a societal function (initiation, integration).
  • In the West, lacking this context, use often leads to isolation or spiritual disintegration rather than integration.
  • “It actually here serves as ... an anti-integration into society.”
    (Steve Kramp, 13:17)
• Attempting to import indigenous “spirituality” via psychedelics often results in disconnection, not authentic integration.

5. Therapeutic Use vs. “Spiritual Seeking”

• Therapeutic Potential: Evidence exists for benefits in treating certain conditions (e.g., PTSD, depression) under medical supervision.
• Spiritual Dangers:

  • Psychedelics can open “spiritual doors” without discernment, leading to encounters with unidentified spiritual entities or experiences.

  • Such pursuits may inadvertently violate the First Commandment by seeking godlike experiences apart from God.

  • "At the end of the day ... you’ve got a big turning away from God, you’ve got a big turning against God, and you’ve got an embrace of other gods."
    (Steve Kramp, 18:49)

6. Positive Experiences Are Not Necessarily Good

• A “good trip” may actually be more spiritually dangerous than a frightening one, as it can:

  • Induce attachment to spiritual states or experiences outside of God’s will.

  • Lead to seeking and sharing non-Christian beliefs.

  • Dangerously bypass authentic spiritual growth and virtue.

  • “The devil can appear as an angel of light.”
    (Steve Kramp, 31:11)

  • William Braden’s observation: “maybe the good trip is actually more dangerous than the bad trip...”

7. Celebrities, Scientists, and the ‘Psychedelic Renaissance’

• Not just “criminals and losers” advocate for these drugs; scientists, artists, and celebrities champion their use for creativity, healing, and enlightenment.

  • However, such advocacy often ignores spiritual discernment and Christian wisdom.

  • “What psychedelics offer is not what God wants for us. And they can lead to this massive inflation of the ego... we can be autonomous and we can become great by our own lights.”
    (Steve Kramp, 38:57)

8. Biblical and Catholic Principles

• The New Testament and Old Testament urge sobriety and reason as keys to spiritual health and discernment.

  • Reference to 1 Peter 5:8 (“be sober-minded”)

• Alcohol vs. Psychedelics:

  • Alcohol is biblically permitted and socially integrated, though there are warnings against excess.
  • Psychedelics lack this biblical or Catholic legacy of integration and pose unique dangers.
  • The societal and spiritual transformation that could result from widespread psychedelic use is “a whole other can of worms.” (Steve Kramp, 51:36)

9. Demonic Encounters and Spiritual Deception

• Some psychedelic experiences involve meetings with entities.
  • In some contexts (e.g. Iboga in Africa), direct ritual possession is sought.
  • “Online you can find all sorts of discussion forums ... where people are confused because their entities are turning mean.”
    (Steve Kramp, 46:15)
• Catholic spiritual tradition calls for discernment of spirits and warns against opening oneself indiscriminately to spiritual powers.

10. Historical Example: The Aztecs and Our Lady of Guadalupe

• The Aztec society, a “psychedelic drug cult” involving human sacrifice, was transformed after the Marian apparition at Guadalupe.
• Psychedelics were regarded as “flesh of the gods” and seen as superior to the Eucharist in native practice.
• Our Lady of Guadalupe’s intervention marked an end to this cultic drug use and sacrificial system:
  • “She appears in a society that’s not only a psychedelic taking drug cult … She puts an end to the human sacrifice and she puts an end to the psychedelic cult.”
    (Steve Kramp, 54:26)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Catechism & Therapeutic Use:
  “...their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense.”
  (06:59)

• On Societal Rush:
  “We tend to just rush in headlong... now we're all going, oh, there's like 50 things we should have thought about before we did that.”
  (Cy Kellett, 06:22)

• On the Dangers of “Spiritual” Seeking Through Drugs:
  “...it’s not so much just about the drug itself. It’s about opening a spiritual door.”
  (Cy Kellett, 15:25)

• On Encountering Entities:
  “People don’t know how to even figure out who these entities are ... some of the entities are even saying things like 'worship me.'”
  (Steve Kramp, 32:03)

• On Alcohol vs. Psychedelics:
  “Alcohol is a part of Western society. We figured out ways to live with it... It just doesn’t seem to have any of the aura or stigma that psychedelics have.”
  (Steve Kramp, 51:36)

• On Our Lady of Guadalupe:
  “She appears in a society that’s not only a psychedelic taking drug cult... she puts an end to the human sacrifice and she puts an end to the psychedelic cult.”
  (Steve Kramp, 54:26)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening & Introduction of Topic and Guest: 00:00–04:02
• What Does the Church Actually Say? 04:19–07:54
• Therapeutic Exception in Catechism: 06:59–07:54
• Types of Psychedelics and their Effects: 09:17–11:58
• Cultural Context: Indigenous Use vs. Western Use: 12:58–14:25
• Spiritual Dangers: Opening Doors 15:18–15:56; resumed at 18:09
• Therapeutic Promise & Trap of Suffering: 18:09–19:16
• First Commandment & New Religions: 18:48–23:23
• Religious Claims and Modern Mysticism 23:44–25:49
• Are Positive Experiences Good? 30:22–33:18
• Caller: Biblical Sobriety (John): 34:23–37:43
• Caller: Celebrity Glamorization (Patrick): 37:54–40:03
• Discernment & Demonic Entities: 45:10–48:48
• Alcohol vs. Psychedelics (Caller: Louise): 49:14–51:36
• Our Lady of Guadalupe and Psychedelic Cults: 51:39–54:26

Conclusion & The Church’s Prudence

• The Church urges great caution, warning of both physical dangers and deep spiritual peril from psychedelic use.
• Therapeutic use may be permissible under strict medical supervision; recreational or “spiritual seeking” uses are fraught and likely grave offenses.
• Catholic discernment is vital: Not all “spiritual experiences” are from God, and positive feelings can be profoundly deceptive.
• The Church calls Catholics to sobriety, reason, and a Christ-centered approach to healing and the spiritual life.
  • “It’s very dangerous for us spiritually ... to cling to an experience that isn’t of God.” (Steve Kramp, 33:20)

Further Reading

• Steve Kramp’s article on Catholics and Psychedelics at catholic.com (published the day after this episode).
• Dr. Tom Carroll, “The Psychedelic: A Catholic Perspective”
• William Braden, The Private Sea
• Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 2291

Tone:
Thoughtful, compassionate, distinctly Catholic but open to the scientific and cultural conversation. Emphasis on prudence, spiritual discernment, compassion for the suffering, and clear-eyed realism about history and the supernatural.