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#12468 Did the Miracle of the Sun Actually Happen? - Tim Staples - Catholic Answers Live | Wave AI Podcast Notes

#12468 Did the Miracle of the Sun Actually Happen? - Tim Staples

Fri Nov 21 2025

“Did the Miracle of the Sun actually happen?” This question opens a discussion on the authenticity of miraculous events in Catholic tradition. Other topics include the relationship between God’s will and personal manifestation, the nature of the Mass as a propitiatory sacrifice, and the significance of Ananias laying hands on St. Paul. Join the Catholic Answers Live Club Newsletter Invite our apologists to speak at your parish! Visit Catholicanswersspeakers.com Questions Covered: 02:35 – Did The Miracle of the Sun actually happen? 17:23 – Can we manifest what God will give us? 29:25 – If the mass is a Propitiatory sacrifice then how come mortal sin can’t be forgiven during mass? 45:00 – What was the significance of Ananias laying his hands on St. Paul? 50:23 – Josephus said James was Jesus’ brother. What is the Catholic response to that?

Summary

Catholic Answers Live – Episode #12468

Did the Miracle of the Sun Actually Happen? (November 21, 2025)

Host: Sy Kellett
Guest: Tim Staples (Senior Apologist, Catholic Answers)

Overview

This episode of Catholic Answers Live explores the famed "Miracle of the Sun" at Fatima: what happened on October 13, 1917, and whether Catholics are required to believe it actually occurred. Tim Staples addresses the evidence, historical records, Church teaching on private revelations, skeptics’ perspectives, and why the event remains so compelling. The episode also fields listener questions on various other Catholic topics.

The Miracle of the Sun at Fatima

What Is the Miracle?

Historical context: In 1917, in Fatima, Portugal, three shepherd children claimed to see apparitions of the Virgin Mary, culminating in a promised miracle on October 13.
The event: Tens of thousands gathered, including skeptics and government officials intending to debunk the event. Witnesses reported seeing the sun "dance in the sky," emit multicolored light, and plunge to treetop level before returning to its place. Despite downpours before, everyone and the ground were inexplicably dry after the event.

"We first have to clarify...the Church does not require faith in any private revelation or apparition or anything like this."
— Tim Staples, [03:22]

Are Catholics Required to Believe?

Not a dogma: Belief in the Fatima event is not a matter of "divine and Catholic faith" or required assent.
Church position: Church approval means the apparition is "worthy of pious belief," not obligatory.
Personal perspective: Staples’s seminary professor:

"You're not required to believe it, but you'd be crazy if you don't. Right. Because when the Church says it's worthy of pious belief, it's worthy of pious belief."
— Tim Staples (quoting Fr. Patrick Brannan), [04:37]

Evidence Cited

Eyewitnesses: An estimated 70,000 people saw the phenomenon, including atheists, communists, journalists, and government officials.
Media coverage: Photographs and newspaper coverage (even international — photos appeared in a Los Angeles newspaper) from both supporters and skeptics.
Physical effects: Ground and people were dry immediately after standing in hours of rain and mud.
Unconverted observers: Many present were skeptics who converted because of what they saw.

"You had people there that were not only skeptics, but were there to quash the thing. That is what makes this particularly believable."
— Tim Staples, [07:47]

Memorable Story

Staples recounts a personal anecdote: a friend's grandmother, not Catholic at the time, followed reports from the U.S., saw photos of the event, and converted as a result — leading to a large Catholic family descended from her ([08:45]).

What Actually Happened?

Not literal: Church does not teach the sun physically moved; rather, this was a supernatural sign, a phenomenon visible to many, not explainable by science.
Staples’s take: "God just gave a sign...it certainly appeared to all the onlookers that the sun came down to the point of treetop level...it was such an incredible miracle because after the sun comes down...everybody there was just dry as a bone. The dirt that had been inches of mud was pristine." ([09:51])

Historical and Conversion Impact

Governmental context: Portugal had a communist, anti-Catholic regime trying to suppress the faith.
Result: The miracle, intended as a public proof, instead convinced many skeptics and converted non-believers.

"Extraordinary numbers of conversions because of this inexplicable [event]."
— Tim Staples, [13:50]

Notable Witnesses and Reports

Avelino de Almeida: Noted journalist (O Seculo, a secular-leaning newspaper), present as a skeptic.
Alfonso Lopes Vieira: Portuguese poet who witnessed the event from afar.
Coverage in U.S.: Stories and photographs in international newspapers.
Converts: Many non-Catholics, including the relative in Staples’s anecdote, became Catholic after the event.

"My friend, her grandmother...saw the event. She was not Catholic when she saw it. She converted as a result of that miracle."
— Tim Staples, [16:15]

Notable Quotes

On Church requirement:
"The Church does not require faith in any private revelation or apparition or anything like this...But when the Church says it's worthy of pious belief, it's worthy of pious belief."
— Tim Staples, [03:22] & [04:27]
On conversions:
"There were folks that were there as skeptics...a whole lot of folks became believers as a result."
— Tim Staples, [15:45]
On skeptics and belief:
"To me, I'm impressed with people like St. Paul who set out to disprove it, and then they fully embrace it. To me, those are the most convincing witnesses. There’s a lot of those people at Fatima."
— Sy Kellett, [11:06]

Timestamps for Key Segments

Setting up the Miracle of the Sun Topic: [03:02-04:22]
Are Catholics required to believe it? [03:22-04:22]
Eyewitness evidence & details of the event: [04:22-11:06]
Impact on skeptics and conversions: [11:06-13:54]
Historical note about specific witnesses: [15:15-17:07]

Additional Notable Segments

(Other questions/topics covered after the Fatima discussion — key themes, not exhaustive.)

1. Danger of Health-and-Wealth/Prosperity Gospel

Staples addresses a caller's concerns about the "manifesting blessings" heresy, roots in bad theology, and the true Catholic understanding of suffering, prayer, and God's will ([17:18-25:59]).

2. Eucharist, Confession, and Forgiveness of Sins

Is the Mass propitiatory? Are mortal sins forgiven at Mass? When must one receive confession? Staples unpacks ordinary/extraordinary means of forgiveness and why Church discipline is structured as it is ([29:00-42:58]).

3. Sacraments in the Acts of the Apostles

What is happening with Ananias and his laying on of hands on St. Paul? Is it ordination, healing, or something else? Staple’s analysis of the passage and Church tradition ([44:48-50:03]).

4. Mary’s Perpetual Virginity and Josephus

How to respond when non-Catholics argue that "brothers of Jesus" in Josephus and elsewhere disproves the Church’s teaching. Staples explains Greek/Hebrew language, culture, and textual tradition ([50:20-54:39]).

Memorable Moments

On answering skeptics:
"I challenge this for my unbelieving friends. Check out the facts. Check it out."
— Tim Staples, [07:54]
On the aftermath for witnesses:
"When this massive fireball goes back up into the sky, everybody there was just dry as a bone. The dirt that had been inches of mud was pristine."
— Tim Staples, [09:51]
Personal family anecdote:
Describes the conversion of a U.S. woman who became Catholic and started a large Catholic family thanks to seeing coverage of Fatima.

Conclusion

Main takeaway: The Miracle of the Sun remains one of the best-documented alleged supernatural events in modern Catholic history, with ample eyewitness and journalistic support. While Catholics are not mandated to believe in private apparitions, Church approval declares such events "worthy of pious belief." The sheer number, credibility, and transformation of witnesses, many of whom went from skeptic to believer, makes dismissing the Miracle of the Sun a difficult proposition for reasonable skeptics.

For Further Listening/Reading

Tim Staples, “Behold Your Mother: A Biblical and Historical Defense of the Marian Doctrines”
Official Fatima documentation
Historical news reports from 1917

For timestamps and context, see above sections for easy reference to key arguments and evidence in the episode.

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Transcript

Sy Kellett (0:00)

Buying or selling your home. Real Estate for Life can connect you with a pro life real estate agent. When Real Estate for Life receives a referral fee, they donate 65% to Catholic Answers. Learn more at realestateforlife.org. Welcome back to Catholic Answers, live as advertised. Tim Staples, our guest this hour. It's an Ask me anything. 888-318-7884. Tim Making me turn his computer on while I'm trying to do the intro to this. No, I got it. Everybody stay seated. I will do two things at once. You will see. I can do two things at once. Ask me anything. 888318.

Tim Staples (0:49)

This thing is usually on already.

Sy Kellett (0:52)

Don't make me do three things. There you go. Is it what now you're gonna find it's at least.

Tim Staples (0:57)

There it is.

Sy Kellett (0:58)

888318. Set the top professionals. That's what we are here at Catholic Answers.

Tim Staples (1:04)

Come on.

Sy Kellett (1:04)

And if you got a question about the Catholic faith, we'd love to take it. And you don't have to be Catholic to call again. The number 888-318-7884. The way we play this game is I get to ask the opening question and then you get to ask all the questions after that. And I'll tell you right now, there's two lines open. We got four. Four lines full. Two lines open. So get in that queue if you've got a question for Tim. 888-318-7884. Tim Staples, senior apologist here at Catholic Answers. Been doing this longer than most of you have been alive. Let me just put it that way. I've been doing this longer than most of you been alive. Widely recognized, at least everywhere I go, as the very best, as the top dog, as the guy everybody wants to imitate in this business of Catholic apologetics. The author of Behold your A Biblical and Historical Defense of the Marian Doctrines. Hello. Tim Staples.

Tim Staples (1:52)

He. How are you?

Sy Kellett (1:53)

I'm good. Are you wearing a summer shirt? What is that that you're wearing?

Tim Staples (1:56)

That's not so nice and warm out today. Good Lord.

Sy Kellett (1:59)

It's been raining like crazy, but it's sunny today, though.

Tim Staples (2:02)

No, it was the thing that was in the front of my closet.

Tim Staples (4:22)

Right. But you're not required to believe it at all. But having said that, as my spiritual director and Greek and Latin professor in the seminary, Father Patrick Brannan, I miss him terribly. He has gone on to his reward. About eight or nine years ago, he used to say, you're not required to believe it, but you'd be crazy if you don't. Right. Because when the Church says it's worthy of pious belief, it's worthy of pious belief. And in this case with Our lady of Fatima, it was extraordinary in that for this final, you know, the promise had come over five months. And when the final apparition occurred and Our lady had promised the children and Sister Lucia had proclaimed it to the world that there would be a visible sign. We've had other pseudo apparitions that make similar claims and they don't claims and they don't happen. And that's a sure sign that there's shenanigans going on. Well, it happened on October 13th, and that's why the memorial is on October 13th. And folks, one of the many amazing things about this is there were 70,000 eyewitnesses. And just this is how Our lady works. This is how our Lord and Our lady work. You had a communist, a totalitarian government that was just cracking down, trying to basically eliminate the Catholic faith there. And not just in Fatima, but all of Portugal was, you know, they were under authoritarian rule and such. And so when this apparition happens and you start getting thousands of people, it was driving the government crazy. They were trying to quash the thing any way they could. And so here they had a perfect out, right? They could send in their government representatives with cameras, with. And the idea was they were going to debunk this thing because they said it was going to be a sign for all to see. And of course, it's not going to happen. Right, so we'll have the photos. Well, guess what happened. Of course it happened. And we're talking about a downpour of rain. And the children go out and kneel and begin to pray in obedience to Our Lady. And the crowds are getting restless, but the faithful were there in the tens of thousands. And again, you had people there that were not only skeptics, but. But we're there to quash the thing. Psy Kellett. That is what makes this particularly believable. And I challenge this for my unbelieving friends. Check out the facts. Check it out. And you know, si, I have an anecdotal situation with a dear friend of mine who is number five of 14 kids. Her name. And I'm sure she wouldn't mind me saying, Robin Norris. She worked with me for years at St. Joseph Communications 30 years ago, and a wonderful lady who was a Carmelite nun for, oh, Gosh, I think 11 years. And she was getting ready to make final vows and they basically dismissed her. But she has just continued. She's a prayerful, wonderful young woman. Well, her grandmother, was it grandmother or great grandmother? I think it was her grandmother who died with like 75 great grandkids and a zillion grandkids and, you know, a zillion kids. Well, she saw in the newspaper back in 1917, Cy Kellett, a story here in the United States written about this peculiar thing going on in Fatima, Portugal, where allegedly and the reports came out each month, and she couldn't wait for the paper to come. She was a little girl at the time, like a teenager, and she couldn't wait for the paper to come. And she finally gets to the fifth, the big shindig, I think it was five apparitions, as I recall, in successive months. Well, there was one month skipped due to some things that happened, and then the final was there on October 13, and she saw the photograph. And this is very important to remember, folks. There were photographs taken by friend and foe at this event when it happened. Downpour, the sky literally opens up, sunbeams shine down, and the miracle of the sun happens. Now, what the miracle of the sun was. Cy and I were talking about this before the broadcast. Nobody knows. It's not like the sun came from tens of millions of miles away down. But you know what? God just gave a sign, right, Sy? God gave a sign. It was miraculous. But it certainly appeared to all the onlookers that the sun came down to the point of treetop level. Now, it would have been some kind of fireball. And it was such an incredible miracle because after the sun comes down. And you can see photos now, imagine my friend's great grandmother, or grandmother.

Tim Staples (18:28)

Yeah, it. That's a really important question. You know, I. Of a Pentecostal background, and we were constantly infected with that health and wealth gospel. And in the Assemblies of God, we always struggled with that because we had folks that were the Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin types of extremists that were welcome in our denomination, and we had others who were much more balanced. But the problem was bad theology, because in our doctrine of the 16 fundamentals, that all Assemblies of God ministers had to promise that they believed in order to be ordained. One of those teachings was that the healing of all believers is in the atonement, just as our salvation is in the atonement. And so the idea was, if you can believe for your salvation, you can believe for your healing. And it was a horrible thing, John, because it would just torment so many who, you know, they would fall into that line. Of course, it's rooted in Isaiah 53, 5. By his stripes, we were healed. Quoted by St. Peter in 1st Peter 2. 24, right, where St. Peter quotes that text referring to Christ. By his stripes, we were healed. And Sy, we used to always say it, you know, in the assemblies and those that were in that health and wealth wing of the assemblies. And you had whole areas of the charismatic movement that bought into that that, you know, just as you didn't have to when you accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, you are saved. You don't have to wonder whether you're saved or not because you were saved 2000 years ago on the cross by his stripes, you were healed. So all you do is accept it and you are saved. Your sins are gone. Well, if that's True. And healing is in the atonement in the same way that salvation is. And that's what was being taught. Well, then you believe for your healing. And you don't have to wonder if you're saved. You are saved. And I can tell you, brother, I saw people. I had a dear friend who almost died from this false doctrine who stopped taking her insulin. Beautiful young girl, almost died. Later, she would end up becoming blind. She went into a diabetic coma because she didn't take her insulin. Well, why would I take an insulin? Sick people don't need to take insulin. And she fell into a diabetic coma. I, along with a whole bunch of folks, were with her one night at a crusade. And when it happened where she collapsed and I had to get her home, it was a terrible situation. But here's the bottom line, all right? The text of scripture they will go to. You know, like, there's quite a few, but some of the most famous are Mark 11:24. Jesus said, what things soever you desire, when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you shall have them. Si. Kill it. Of course, you need to give me a couple hundred bucks too. That'll help the process, brother. Is that all right?

Tim Staples (21:53)

Yes. Anyway, I don't mean to. Yeah, you do. Maybe I did mean the joke a little bit, but it is a dangerous doctrine. Of course, that is our blessed Lord talking about the confidence that we can have in God to know that God wills the best for us. But what you have to do with folks like that is encourage them. You have to take all of scripture, not just one scripture, out of context. And I always like to. To send people over to, for example, 1 John 5:14, where St. John quotes almost the same words of Jesus. He says, this is the confidence we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know he hears us, we have the things that we have petitioned of him. So notice St. John adds that little phrase if it's according to his will, and sometimes it is not. And you have the classic example of St. Paul in Second Corinthians, chapter 12, verses 6. And following the famous thorn in the side text, where Paul doesn't tell us what it is exactly, people speculate, but he had this thorn in the side. And one thing we know is he didn't want it. Right? Right. He said, I asked the Lord three times to remove it. And Jesus said, no, no, and no. Now, he didn't say it exactly like that what he said is, my grace is sufficient for thee, for in your weakness I am made strong. And St. Paul would say, I will therefore glory in my infirmities. That's sicknesses, weaknesses, right? I will glory in my infirmities that the power of Christ may dwell upon me or in me. So what St. Paul, and here's a guy who raised the dead, who healed many, you know, In Acts chapter 19, they were bringing handkerchiefs just to touch to his body. They would take to somebody else and they would be healed. He saw healings extraordinaire. But Paul also understood that God is sovereign and it's not always God's will to heal physically. In fact, God wills always the spiritual healing of all of us if we co and even there, if we cooperate with his grace. He's not going to force his grace on us if we don't want it. But we know that's always his will. But at times God wills for us. And I think I've experienced a little bit of that in my own life where I would have loved to have had the three strokes that I had kind of taken away, right? Because all three of them were bummers, especially that last one. But guess what? God has a plan. And he will use any and everything in our lives to bring us to what is most important. And that is a right relationship with Jesus Christ so that we can make heaven our home. That's what St. Paul was talking about there when he says, I will therefore for glory in my infirmities. Why not for the sake of the infirmity or the sickness or the weakness, but so that the power of Christ and he even, you know, God actually spoke to St. Paul and told him that he was doing this lest he be exalted through the abundance of revelations that he had received. He was doing this to humble St. Paul as well. And so St. Paul could see say thanks be to God. And I think St. Paul did pretty well, don't you? Psycheliata. Right. But I think, John, that's kind of the way that I like to approach it. There's a lot of different ways you can approach the thing, but unfortunately that health and wealth gospel is very dangerous. It leads to a lot of people with shipwrecked faith when the healings don't happen.

Tim Staples (30:19)

Right. Great question, Joe. And the answer first, we got to clarify one point here, and that is ordinarily speaking, the mortal sins are not forgiven through the holy sacrifice of the Mass. However, they can be if we make a perfect act of contrition and we are free. And this is a high bar psychellate. Right. If we are free from all attachments, we have to be sorry for our sins, of course, and free from all attachment to both mortal and venial sins. And of course we have to have that desire and intention to go to Mass. So in that instance, it's possible that even our mortal sins can be forgiven. However, the key is understanding that all sacraments are. And I remember talking to Father Hugh Barber about this years ago. You said all sacraments can be a source of healing for all of our sins if we meet the criterion that I just mentioned. And that's an important point. Why? And it's precisely because, Joe, that they are all a participation in the sacrifice of our blessed Lord 2000 years ago. But the ordinary means, right, and that's the key. The ordinary means because this is, you know, the church isn't going to function on extraordinary stuff like, well, he may have been forgiven. So we don't need confession. Right, because he may have been conviction they may get forgiven right there at Mass. No, Our blessed Lord gave us perfection when he gave us the seven sacraments. And so what we have is, yes, ordinarily speaking, we have the sacrament of baptism. That takes Away all sin, mortal, venial, and all punishment due for sin, which is our initiation into the body of Christ. In a unique way that baptism does that, so it in the ordinary way takes away all sins. But God gave us another sacrament for sins after baptism. Why? Because God wills for us to have an ongoing relationship, not just a one time baptism, you know, baptismal relationship with God. But what about post baptismal mortal sins? How do we deal with that? He gave us confession to be the ordinary way that we take away those, even though in extraordinary ways they can be taken away in other ways. That's the ordinary means. Why? So that we can get to heaven. And so now the Eucharist, ordinarily speaking, is the source and summit of our faith because it's not just a symbol of Christ though it is, but it is Christ. What better symbol than to have Christ actually present? And that is the greatest of all the sacraments, because it is Christ. Baptism is in fact ordered toward the Eucharist, as is all the sacraments. Even confirmation is directed toward us, giving our lives completely in the reception of the Eucharist, which is our ultimate healing. But ordinarily speaking, it is the food for those who are already in communion with Christ. It's like, you know, when my wife and I had our seven kids. No, she had the seven kids. I watched. I shouldn't say Val and I had seven kids. No, no, I put that on her. She had the kids. But you know, you don't, you don't just have a baby born and you say, wow, we did our job, we'll just leave them over here then. No, you got to feed them, don't you? Sigh. You know, in order for them to.

Tim Staples (34:28)

That is one of the rules. And I can tell you, all seven of them, it's a pain because I feed them over and over and over and they still want more. I know, but anyway, so in the spiritual life, of course, this is what Jesus prayed for us in what we call the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, 9. In Matthew's version, right? Give us this day. The modern Bibles will say daily bread. It's actually Epiusion in Greek, which means our super substantial bread. And the, the deeper meaning to that text is not talking about eggs and toast. This is talking about our daily sustenance. And think about it, in the life of a baby, the daily sustenance isn't there to bring them from non life to life the way birth, conception and then birth does. Rather, it's ordinarily meant to keep them alive. Now can again an extraordinary situations, sure. But that's the ordinary way that God established it. And really, you know, Joe, it really makes sense, doesn't it? Ordinarily speaking, it's the Eucharist that keeps us alive. So in that sense, it's our salvation. If Cy Kellett or Tim Staples were to reject the Eucharist and say, you know what? I'm not going to Mass anymore. I'm just, no, well, guess what? We would be lost because Jesus said, you know, ultimately God's in charge. He's the judge. I can't even judge my own soul, says St. Paul in First Corinthians, chapter four, verses three through six. He said, I can't even judge my own self. He says, I have confident, assurance, but I'm not the judge. God is. So we can't say. But hey, if objectively speaking, anyone rejects the Eucharist knowingly, or make that any infallible teaching of the Catholic Church, if you willingly, knowingly reject it, that itself is grave sin and it will cut you off from the life of God. So the Eucharist is essential so that we might have life in us. And that's its ordinary purpose, right? That's our Lord's ordinary purpose. He said it in John 6:53, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no Zoe in you. The divine life. Not bias, not natural life here. This is Zoe, that you have no life in you. That's the Eucharist. Does that make sense, brother?

Tim Staples (38:34)

Right? Well, under understand that no, you don't have to receive the Eucharist in order to be worthy of the Eucharist, right? You have to receive baptism. It's baptism. Think about the young. At least in the Latin rite. With my kids, they received first Communion when they were seven. They didn't have to have confession, even though in the Latin rite the law is you take them to first communion first unless they have mortal sin. Now in that instance, the Church does require that we take them to confession first. I guess the better analogy would be our Eastern brethren, who they don't go to confession first because they receive as little babies. That would be the better analogy, right? So you don't need to receive the Eucharist somehow first to be made worthy of receiving the Eucharist. You have to be baptized, and that makes you worthy to receive the Eucharist. And so for post baptismal sins, if you commit mortal sin, well, you can only be baptized once. And so this is why the Council of Trent talks about in session six on justification, how we need to be justified again when we fall into mortal sin. Now, the Church doesn't, and Jesus didn't establish it to where, okay, you're going to be baptized again each time you commit a mortal sin. No, as we talked about before, what Jesus instituted was the Sacrament of confession. And that brings you back to that state of grace so that you are indeed worthy to receive the Eucharist. And this is why, ordinarily speaking, the Church does not permit us by law to receive if we have a known mortal sin on our soul. We must go to confession before we can receive the Eucharist. But again, that's ordinarily speaking, because there are situations where for an extended period of time, priests are not available, which happens in, doesn't happen so much in the United States, but it does happen in other countries and such where priests are scarce. You can receive the Eucharist if you're not able to to get to confession for an extended period of time. But what does that tell you? It tells you that this law of the Church is not absolute. It's Holy Mother Church looking out for us and understanding that. Hey, St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11 and you alluded to this one Corinthians 11, 27, 29, if anyone eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, he shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. Let each man examine himself and so receive. And then he repeats, for if you eat this bread or drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, you eat and drink damnation to yourself. So again, ordinarily speaking, no, you cannot receive the Eucharist until you have been restored to communion with Christ because again, that you have to be in communion with Christ in order to receive communion with Christ. Otherwise you're lying. You're saying I'm in communion with Christ, but I'm actually in mortal sin. And if you do that, that's actually a worse sin. It's called sacrilege. But I mentioned that the church by her divine authority makes exceptions for that, and very strictly so in cases where someone cannot get to confession for an extraordinary period of time and therefore they go. But in order to receive, they must make what we call a perfect act of contrition. You never know if you've actually if you're free of all attachment to either venial or mortal sins this side of the veil. But you do the best you can and you have to have that intention to go to confession as soon as the opportunity avails. And so if you were to refuse that, then you got another sin on your hand right there, brother. Hopefully that helps, brother.

Tim Staples (45:24)

Right. That is something that scholars will disagree and the church has never given us anything definitive on that. But I can give you what is generally understood is that no, Ananias was not a bishop. And so what we have here is not St. Paul's ordination, but you know the text actually, and you find it both in Acts 9, 17 and, and two other places, especially Acts 2216 and a little bit earlier than that, Acts 22, but 14 and following there. And what is generally understood is he is an evangelist. He may well have been a deacon. We don't know for sure. But it appears that he baptized him, even though if you look at Acts 22:16, he doesn't say, I'm going to baptize you. He says, arise and be baptized and wash away your sins. And so most likely he did. But some people get real persnickety there. And so he may well have been a deacon. He may have been commissioned by an apostle to do what he was doing. And you also note that there's healing involved. Now, some will argue was this the sacrament of the anointing of the sick? And most would say no, this was a charismatic gift of laying on of hands and healing happening there. So this isn't something that the church has been dogmatic on. And so we do have some freedom there. But what we don't want to do is go too extreme on the thing like we have from some of our Protestant friends saying, see, this proves that you have a non bishop like ananias who's ordaining St. Paul. Now, St. Paul we believe as one Corinthians 15, St. Paul talks about he was as one born out of proper time. Right. He was called by Jesus Christ and ordained by Jesus Christ. Now, he had hands laid on him in Acts 13:1 2. But most Catholic scholars don't believe that was ordination either. That was more of a recognition of Jesus calling already in his life to be an apostle. And they're sending him out for the particular task of what we would later call his first missionary endeavor or his first missionary journey. So would Paul have had hands laid on him specially for ordination? Well, there would be no need for that any more than there would have been with Jesus calling the apostles because Jesus did it directly. It does appear that Jesus baptized them. That seems to be hinted at in John's gospel, chapter three, verse 22 and John 4:1 2, where in John 3:22, it's the only place in the scripture where it says Jesus baptized and there he baptized. But then in chapter four, verses one and two, it says he sent the apostles out to baptize. But he himself did not baptize only the apostles, which appears that he baptized the apostles and then sent them out to baptize. Right. But there's no record of him laying on of hands and ordaining. And so the ordaining appears to be with the apostles Jesus call to them and sending them out personally. Could he have laid hands on them? Yes, but that's not part of the tradition. So it would seem that would lend itself. I know we're getting into a little weeds here, but that would, that would lend itself to St. Paul also not needing the laying on of hands for ordination. But there was laying on the hands, a commissioning that was done. And that's probably what's going on here in Acts chapter 9. A Commissioning and certainly a baptism, but then the opening eyes of the eyes of St. Paul through a charismatic gift to Ananias. But does that help at all? I know, I hope I didn't confuse things.

Tim Staples (51:09)

Sure. Well, Josephus, number one, is not somebody you want to look to for Christian doctrine. What you look to Josephus and other historical writers like that is the confirmation of certain events and so forth. And that's, you know, fantastic. Pliny the Younger and Tacitus and Suetonius and so many others serve really, really well in that capacity. So, number one, you don't want to look for your doctrine with Josephus. However, if you actually read that's in a work called the Antiquity of the Jews. And if you look what he actually said, he. He simply calls him brother of the Lord, which is exactly what Scripture refers to James as. And yes, he uses the Greek word Adelphos. And by the way, the Greek word was around in the first century. It was around 300 years before the first century for cousin. And it's not that, you know, the New Testament, it only uses it once in Colossians, chapter 4, verse 10. The cousin of Barnabas there, Anabsias. But the key is understanding. When Joseph is saying brother of the Lord. Joseph would like any other Jew, understand that a delphos can mean brother, what we would call a uterine brother. It can mean half brother or it can mean an extended relative. It was commonly used as such. And you can see that in the Old Testament. I have lots. In fact, I'd like to send him my book. Behold your mother, if we could. I want to send you my book. Behold your mother. I have a whole section on this to where I go into great detail. You know, like in Genesis 14:14, where you have Abraham and Lot that are actually uncle and nephew by relation, but they call one another brother, you know, and all through the Old Testament, cousins, nephews, they call one another brother. And that was a. And it's true now when it comes to cousin, there wasn't a term for cousin in ancient Hebrew. There wasn't. And that may well have contributed to the commonality of saying a cousin is a brother or even an uncle and nephew. And so. But it kind of became a cultural thing, kind of like, you know, our African American brothers and sisters, right, they call each other brother. And that really goes back to their Christian heritage. And especially during the times of slavery in the United States, they had profound relationships as brothers, looking out for each other as the best they could in the horrible circumstances they were in. And it became a cultural thing to call one another brother, even though it's. It wasn't, hey, man, I'm your cousin. You can't call me brother. Right? No, it was a cultural thing, and that's what it was with the Jewish people. They commonly used brother in that extended way. And most likely that's what Josephus is doing there in the antiquities of the Jews. And of course, that's what St. Paul is doing in Galatians, chapter one, Jesus in Matthew 13:50 and Matthew 12:46 and following and so forth. But we're out of time. I hope that's helpful for you, brother.