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#12469 Why Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Considered Non-Christian? - Jimmy Akin
“Why are Jehovah’s Witnesses considered non-Christian?” This question leads to a discussion on the theological distinctions that set them apart from mainstream Christianity. Additionally, the conversation touches on the similarities and differences between angelic and ghost apparitions, the earliest evidence for the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception, and advice for new Catholics seeking community. Join the Catholic Answers Live Club Newsletter Invite our apologists to speak at your parish! Visit Catholicanswersspeakers.com Questions Covered: 01:40 – Similarities and differences between angelic and ghost apparitions 19:15 – Clarification on why Jehovah’s Witnesses are considered non-Christian 29:30 – Earliest evidence for the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception 43:30 – If Jesus appears fully in both species, why does Scripture say “body” for bread and “blood” for wine? 49:55 – Advice for a new Catholic struggling to connect with ...
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Edgar Lujano
Welcome to Catholic Answers Live. My name is Edgar Lujano, producer for the show and filling in for Psychella today on this wonderful Friday afternoon, at least here in California, it's good to be with you guys and to finish off the week. And we have two great hours for you, as per usual on Friday. We're here with Jimmy Akin. So we're going to two great hours of an Ask Me Anything on Catholicism. So if you have a question for Jimmy, you can go ahead and call us. You know what? I'm not even gonna get the phone number because the lines are already full, so. Look at that, Jimmy. So we're going to have plenty of material to work with here.
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Jimmy Akin
Yeah, that sounds good. And did you say you were filling in for Psych Helid at least here in California, as you do in the show elsewhere?
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Edgar Lujano
No, that's fair enough. Fair enough. I mean, it's a wonderful afternoon. At least the afternoon is here in California.
- [01:17]
Jimmy Akin
Okay, just messing with you.
- [01:19]
Edgar Lujano
Fair enough. Fair enough. All right, Well, I guess we should just jump in because lines are full. There's no need for the phone number. I wanted to ask you about angel apparitions. And we see them in scripture, obviously, with Mary, the angel Gabriel appearing to Mary, Zechariah and Joseph. But also in the Old Testament, in the book of Tobit, we have the apparition of the archangel Raphael. So we see a lot of biblical apparitions of angels in modern days. In today's world, you don't see a lot of. And you don't hear of a lot of angelic apparitions. You hear a lot of ghost apparitions. So I wanted to ask you kind of the similarities and differences with that. But before we get to that, I wanted to ask you if we can define some of these terms. What do we mean by angel? What do we mean by ghost, or even what do we mean by apparitions?
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Jimmy Akin
Okay, so let's start with the last, which is the category that embraces all of them. Apparitions. The term apparition comes from the word appear. So an apparition is where when a spirit appears in some way, it may appear to the sense of sight or to the sense of hearing or to any of the physical senses, or it can even just be a sense of knowing that there's A spirit present. So any kind of appearance of a spirit is an apparition. There are then commonly three different types of apparitions, although hypothetically there can be others. But there are angelic apparitions. Where an angel appears, the spirit's an angel. There are apparitions of saints, and there are apparitions that are commonly called ghosts also hypothetically. And we'll get to what ghosts are. But spoiler warning, it's basically souls in purgatory. There also can be apparitions of the damned and according to St. Thomas Aquinas, and also apparitions of demons. But those are a separate category. They're treated separately in terms of what, what the different spirits that appear are. The way the term angel is used in contemporary Christian theology, it refers to a created spirit that is not a human. So any spirit other than God who is uncreated, any spirit other than God that is not a human spirit, would be defined as an angel. The way that the term is used in contemporary theology, it's been used differently in the past, but that's how it's use today. The term angel means messenger. And the reason that that term has been used or has become prominent is because in the Bible, God is depicted as having a heavenly court where he's surrounded by different spirits in heaven. And we humans tend to interact with the lowest of them, the messengers, the ones who run errands for God to deliver messages and things like. There are other spirits, though, that are part of God's heavenly court. In the Bible, the high ranking ones are called the sons of God. There are also guardians of God's throne, which is what the seraphim in Isaiah are. There are also carriers of God's throne, which is what the cherubim in Ezekiel are. And God is also depicted as having an army. But in the early centuries of the Christian era, the term angel started to take off and basically embrace all of those. But what they all have in common is that they are created non human spirits. Saint is a term that can embrace both angelic and human spirits. Saint comes from the Latin word sanctus, which means holy. And so any spirit that's holy can be called a saint. And any person who's still alive that is holy can be called a saint, even if they're not canonized. Even when she was alive, Mother Teresa was regarded as a living saint. So there are holy angels, namely the good ones. And so they are saints. That's why we talk about Saint Michael, Saint Gabriel and Saint Raphael. But there are also human saints like Saint Peter and Saint Paul and so forth. The term ghost comes from. It's related to the German word geist, because English is a Germanic language. They have many vocabulary items in common, and it just means spirit. So in its broadest sense, any spirit could be called a ghost. That's why the Holy Spirit is also called the Holy Ghost. But the way the term ghost has evolved in the history of English, it's come to refer to human spirits. So we don't generally talk about, like, angelic ghosts. We talk about human ghosts, the ghosts of humans. And it's basically a disembodied human spirit. And it's also typically distinguished from Saints. So if St. Peter appears to you in a vision, it's not going to be that you had an apparition of a ghost, that we'd say you had an apparition of a saint. So the term ghost has tended to become restricted historically to souls that are not yet in heaven, that are still undergoing their purification prior to arriving in heaven. Or what you could also call purgatorial spirits, spirits in purgatory. So that's a basic sketch of those different categories and how they relate. And as you can see, there's overlap between them. Angel overlaps with saint, saint overlaps with a little kind of with ghost. But they're all apparitions.
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Edgar Lujano
Gotcha. So what do we know about their appearances when they appear to us?
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Jimmy Akin
Well, it substantially depends on what they're doing, what their mission is. Angels. The term means messengers. So one of the things that they often do is deliver messages from God. Like, that's what Gabriel is doing when he appears in the Gospel of Luke to Zechariah and to the Virgin Mary. He's delivering the message to Zechariah that he's gonna be the father of John the Baptist, and he's delivering the message to Mary that she's gonna be the mother of Jesus. So delivering messages is one of the principal things that angelic apparitions involve in the Bible. But they can also involve other things. God can task angels with doing other missions. Like when David inappropriately takes a census in the Old Testament, as punishment, God sends an angel that. That is delivering a plague on the city of Jerusalem. And this leads to the selection of the site where the temple will eventually be built. But this angel isn't delivering a message. He's delivering germs. So he's got a different mission. So angels, even though the term means messenger, they can do other things. When it comes to apparitions of saints, this actually does happen in the Bible? Not very much, because it wasn't until the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus that human souls started being admitted to heaven, at least on an ordinary basis. So you don't get a lot of saint apparitions or human saint apparitions in the Old Testament or in the Bible. But it does happen in second Maccabees. There is an appearance where Judah Maccabee, the Jewish rebel leader, is having a dream. And God sends him a vision in this dream of the deceased high priest Onias and the deceased prophet Jeremiah, and they deliver him a message of encouragement to share with his men that they're going to be able to conquer their enemies. So you do get some apparitional messages. And in later church history, saint apparitions tend to also be about delivering messages in one form or another. When it comes to ghostly apparitions, though, the ghost is often doing something else now, they may deliver a message. We don't really have apparitions of ghosts that are confirmed as such in the Bible. We do have some places. Like when the disciples see Jesus walking on the water, at first they think he's a ghost, and later when he's resurrected, at first they think he's a ghost, but. But in neither of those cases is really a ghostly apparition. If you look at the apparitions that are reported later that deal with ghosts in church history, since they are purgatorial spirits rather than saints who are already in heaven, they frequently will want things. We may just be aware of them because they're doing part of their penance. Part of their purification is being in a certain location. Like, I know of one story where there was a nun who had been inattentive in her prayers that she was supposed to do in chapel. And so as part of her purification, she manifested in the chapel. It's like, okay, you didn't do your prayers in the chapel when you were alive, so now you're gonna do them when you're dead. And that was part of her purification. They also, though, may request things. They may request prayers for them. They may request forgiveness, say, please forgive me for what I did to you when I was alive. They may. They may ask for masses to be said. That's something that St. Thomas Aquinas had with his sister. She appeared to him twice. The first time she appeared, she was in purgatory. And she said, hey, I'm in purgatory. Can you arrange for masses to be said for me? And he did. And then the second time, she Appeared. She said, it worked. And he said, great, what about my. My two brothers who have died, Reginald and Lando? And she says, well, Reginald's already in heaven, but Lando is still in purgatory. So I would imagine he then had some prayers and masses said for Landoff. Also, there is in. In modern times, you know, parapsychology studies, apparitions, and it in. One of the things that has been discovered is there are an enormous number of what are called after death communications. This happens in all countries. It happens all over the world, all through history. And according to current statistics, between 40 and 50%, half of the population reports having at least one after death communication with a loved one at some point during their life. And they also frequently bring messages, although it's not always, please pray for me. Sometimes it's, I'm fine, you don't need to worry about me. I'm happy, don't be sad, stuff like that. But very frequently after death communications have little short messages like that.
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Edgar Lujano
Okay, so we talked about the purposes of it. So whenever we have an appearance of a ghost or the appearance of an angel, what are some of the similarities and the differences amongst the appearances? Because again, there's a wide variety of reasons why they can do it, why they do it. What are some of the similarities or the differences?
- [13:24]
Jimmy Akin
Well, one difference is angelic spirits are more powerful than us, and so they can sometimes do things that we can't. Now, they don't natively have physical bodies, but they sometimes can do physical things. They can assume what looks like a physical form and then affect things. Like when the two angels go to Sodom to check it out in the book of Genesis, you know, the men of Sodom want to rape them. Lot goes out to talk to the men of Sodom, and the author of Genesis says they reached out their hands and grabbed Lot and drug him back into the house and then shut the door. So this makes it sound very much like they have assumed physical form. And medieval theologians said that's what they do, that sometimes when they interact with humans, they can assume physical forms. They referred to these at the time as aerial bodies. The idea was that they would condense air, you know, one of the four classical elements, and make bodies out of them. And then the bodies would disperse when, when they were no longer using them. That was, for example, how Thomas Aquinas explained them. Today we have a different theory of matter that relies on atoms rather than the four classical elements. But the same basic principle would work. If they're just, you know, grabbing matter and using it. So that's something that we don't really have evidence for. Human spirits being able to do that may be beyond our power, but it's something angelic spirits can do it. One thing that's common though, between both angelic and human apparitions is that you may not initially be able to tell that's what you're dealing with. Sometimes it is whether, whether you're seeing an angel or a human, you may not know that they're not a living person. That's why the book of Hebrews talks about how some have entertained angels without knowing it. And similarly with human spirits, there have been occasions where, you know, someone has an after death communication and they see us with their eyes, you know, this person, they hear the person's voice, they reach out, they give them a hug, they feel the person. So it's an illusion that is present to all of the human senses. They can also smell the person. You know, if they, if they've got perfume or something, they'll smell the perfume. And it's not until later that they realize that was an apparition. You know, maybe they, they see and even touch this person and talk to them and then the person vanishes and they therefore learn that, oh, I guess that person wasn't really here after all. So that's a difference, that's a similarity between angelic and human apparitions. But in terms of the differences, well, an angel might appear like we commonly picture angels, you know, like a human with wings. That's not actually an image that's found in the Bible, but it is commonly used for, for angels. And so just like saints can appear in a way that fits with the visionary's cultural background, like the way Our lady of Guadalupe appears as an Indian maiden dressed like an Indian maiden, even though the Virgin Mary wouldn't have dressed like that. You know, angels can appear like we imagine them, like with wings, but human spirits tend not to. And if you're having an after death communication from someone you knew, they're likely to just appear like they did during life, although they tend to appear younger and healthier. When people see after death communications of their loved ones, they usually report them not looking like they did on their deathbed, but younger and healthier, but they otherwise look like the person they knew during life.
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Edgar Lujano
Perfect. Well, thank you for that, Jimmy. Really appreciate that. I'm going to go ahead to our first break and when we come back, we'll start taking some questions right here on Catholic Answers Live.
- [17:45]
Jimmy Akin
Catch Catholic Answers live anytime@catholic.com Are you a coffee drinker?
- [17:51]
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- [18:38]
Jimmy Akin
To learn more about Mother Angelica's life and the history of EWTN, visit ewtn.com motherangelica.
- [18:58]
Edgar Lujano
Welcome back. It's an Ask Me Anything with Jimmy Akin. So we're go straight to the calls. Let's go to Katie in Boise, Idaho, watching us on YouTube. Katie, welcome to the show. You're on the air.
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Katie
Hi. How are you doing?
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Edgar Lujano
Great. Go right ahead.
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Katie
Good. So I actually grew up as a Jehovah Witness. I left the organization when I was about 20 years old. I'm 38 now. And I want to say over the past few months, I have been very drone towards the Catholic faith. I don't know that much yet, but I'm trying to learn. And so while watching you, which, by the way, I've only watched you for about two days.
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Keith
Wow.
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Katie
Yeah. So while watching you guys, I heard someone talk about Jehovah Witness. And while listening, I heard a comment that the Jehovah Witness are not considered Christian. And honestly, it really surprised me because growing up, we did believe we were Christian. So I guess what I'm asking is why are the Jehovah Witnesses not considered Christian? And what are the key theological reasons for the distinction between Jehovah Witness and other religions like the Catholics?
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Jimmy Akin
Okay. Well, the answer to the question, first of all, there's no shade being thrown on Jehovah's Witnesses by saying they're not Christian. They sincerely regard themselves as Christian. They're trying to follow God as they believe they should. So no one's questioning, no one's questioning their, or at least I'm not questioning their sincerity and their desire to please God. The statement that they're not a Christian has to do with what is needed to objectively be a Christian. Someone may think they're following Christ the way he wants, but that may not be the case. What exactly is required to be a Christian is going to depend on who you ask. There are people, for example, in the Protestant tradition who will say, if you don't understand the message of salvation exactly the way I articulate it, you are not a Christian. That, however, is not the Catholic view. The Catholic view is that if someone is professes the Christian faith and they are baptized, then they are Christian. They may be a good Christian, they may be a bad Christian, but as long as they profess the Christian faith and they're baptized validly, then they then they're a Christian. Now, in terms of do Jehovah's Witnesses profess the Christian faith? Well, they certainly don't understand it the way other people who embrace the Christian faith do. They do not, for example, believe that Jesus is literally a person, one of the persons of God, and they don't believe the Holy Spirit is one of the persons of God. So they don't believe in the Trinity. And the Trinity is something that basically all Christians down through history have agreed upon. There are, and some of these passages have been obscured in the Jehovah's Witness New World translation. But there are passages that indicate there is one God and that the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God and the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not each other. They're distinct persons. And so from that we can deduce that the one God is also three distinct persons. And that's what the doctrine of the Trinity is. And Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe that. Now would that. And so Catholics would say, well, they misunderstand the nature of God in this way. Would that stop them from being Christian? Well, there's an argument that that would not stop them from being Christian because Jehovah's Witness beliefs are similar to a movement, it's regarded as a heresy, but to a movement that was around in the 4th century called Arianism. And Arians had basically the same view of God that Jehovah's Witnesses do. But at the time Arians were regarded as Christians, Christians with a defective understanding of God, but nevertheless as Christians. And so you could argue that even though Jehovah's Witnesses don't understand the Christian faith properly, they understand it well enough that it wouldn't be a block to, to them being Christians. The real problem from a Catholic perspective for why Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians is because of their baptism. Now, as you know, Jehovah's Witnesses do practice baptism, but they don't practice it the way that it is taught in The Bible. Jesus says to baptize people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. And so the Christian church has always understood that in addition to applying water to people in baptism, you also need to use words. Classically, this has been referred to as the words have been called the form of the sacrament of baptism. And the application of water is the matter of the sacrament of baptism. And you could use other terms for them, but basically both the words and the water are needed to have the sacrament work. And Jehovah's Witnesses don't use the words. And not only do they not use the words that Jesus says to use, they don't use any words. They just apply water to people without using any baptismal formula. And so from a Catholic perspective, that means that even though they're sincerely trying to follow God by being baptized objectively, they're not doing what they need to do in order for Christ's promise in baptism to work. So because they're not properly baptized, that's why you can say from a Catholic perspective that Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians. Doesn't mean they're not sincere in their beliefs. Doesn't mean they're not trying to please God. Doesn't mean they're not following God as they understand Him. A Catholic would say they don't understand him the right way because they don't believe in the Trinity. And there are other problems with Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs, but the fundamental reason from a Catholic perspective is they're not Christian because they're not actually baptized.
- [25:53]
Edgar Lujano
Katie, thank you so much for your call. If you hang on the line, we want to go ahead and give you a free book. It's called why We're Catholic. It'll give you a nice little understanding of what Catholics believe. And so hang on the line. John will pick up the phone and take your information. And please give us a call again. I know it's only been two days since you've listened to us, but we're going to be here Monday through Friday.
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- [27:15]
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- [27:46]
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- [28:26]
Edgar Lujano
Welcome back, Catholic Answers Live. Edgar Lujano filling in for Sy Kellets. He will be back on Monday, so no need to fear. Let's go back to the calls if we go over to Key Keith in Clifton, Virginia, listening us on the Catholic Answers app. Keith, welcome to the show.
- [28:44]
Keith
Thank y' all for taking my call.
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Edgar Lujano
Of course.
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Keith
I grew up and hello Jimmy. I grew up in Southeast Tennessee when they had one Catholic, one Episcopal and one Lutheran Church and then a ton of Baptists in Church of God of Prophecy Church, so. And by the way, Jimmy, I found you on a podcast one time and you're the reason why. Well, the Holy Spirit has worked through you to get me to becoming Catholic and I'm at now.
- [29:15]
Edgar Lujano
Wow.
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Jimmy Akin
Oh, praise God. Yeah. Thank you.
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Keith
So here's the thing I'm going through right now is having Sola Scriptura ingrained in me for, you know, 100 years. I'm having a hard time with the Marian Dogmas for theologies. I know there's four of them. And I don't have a problem with Theotokos. I don't have a problem. The problems I'm having with is the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. And I can't find anything in the very early church or the early church and I don't know how to describe it other than the first three or four centuries. I can't really find anything that shows that the, that the church believed in these, those two things. And so I'm trying to find us. I heard, I think Dr. Albrecht or Father Albrecht or just William and he had mentioned one, one person. But I'm just trying to find some, some. What's the word? I'm trying to find some, some works that was done showing that, that the early early Christian church believe that and it was passed on and then eventually it was made dogma. But if it was just made dog mud out of, out of the last few, you know, five, 600 years, I don't really know how to. We had some really bad popes back in. And you know, six, 700 years ago.
- [30:52]
Jimmy Akin
Oh, even longer.
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Keith
Yeah. So like St. Peter, I know God can write straight with crooked, with crooked lines, but I'm trying to, I'm trying to find a, I'm trying to find references to the early, early churches believing in those, those two dogmas. And I've not been able to find that yet. Okay, I'm sorry, but you know, that's.
- [31:22]
Jimmy Akin
Where we have no need to feel sorry for that. I have a Southern accent myself, although a little bit different than Tennessee. But we're both here in the, in the mid south in terms of the issues that you're looking at. So I'm glad that you have no problem with the Atelcos because even many Protestant theologians acknowledge. Yeah, she can be validly described as the Mother of God when it comes to the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. Now you didn't mention her perpetual virginity, but we do have very early indications of that. I think you can basically deduce that from the New Testament. And we have second century sources that talk about her being a. Of part perpetual virgin. And it just goes forward from there. It becomes explicit in the second century when it comes to the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. You will. There are some fairly early references to the Assumption. Unfortunately our records are, you know, they're not as strong as we would like, but we have references, I believe in the third century to the Assumption and that's close enough that, to the, to the New Testament era, that historical memories of what happened at the end of Mary's earthly life can easily be preserved that long. The one that is going to be more difficult to document is the Immaculate Conception. And the reason is the language didn't exist to express what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is in modern terms for a few centuries. In Latin, the word macula means stain. And so to say Mary is immaculate means she is stainless. The question is, what is the stain that she doesn't have? And the answer is, she doesn't have the stain of original sin. And the concept of original sin didn't receive a name for several centuries until about the fifth century. So you're not gonna find people able to articulate Mary's holiness in the modern way, using the concept of original sin for several centuries. But that doesn't mean that they didn't understand that she was holy. In fact, there are even very early sources that describe her as stainless or immaculate. It's just the concept of original sin hadn't been named yet. And so you won't find precise statements of it, but you will find very early understandings that Mary had holiness, that she had holiness in a way. She had a special form of holiness that not just everybody had. That's why sometimes, like, for example, our Eastern Christians will refer to her as Panagia or the all holy, because she had this unique holiness. And eventually the concept of original sin got its name, and it became possible to express the precise nature of Mary's holiness in a way that it hadn't been possible. There was still a recognition that she's holy, but. But it wasn't expressed as precisely as it later came to be. So this is an example of what Catholics call doctrinal development, where a concept is present early on and then it gradually, over time, the Holy Spirit leads the Church to be able to articulate it more clearly and more precisely. And, of course, that happened through the magisterium of the Church or, you know, the leadership of the Church, its bishops teaching in union with the pope. And you're right, we have had some bad popes going all the way back to the first with St. Peter. But even though St. Peter denied Christ three times, that didn't stop him from writing two completely infallible letters or encyclicals. And they actually are encyclicals. They're meant to be circulated, and they're in the back of your New Testament. They're called First Peter and two Peter. So we can have a really bad pope, but God can still use him to articulate Christian teaching in an infallible way. And in recent times, two popes, Pius IX and Pius xii, articulated the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary using that charism or gift of infallibility. And so even if they were bad people, which, you know, they weren't, but even if they had been, God can still guide them to teach infallibly the same way he used St. Peter to teach infallibly after his fall. So that's kind of a sketch of what I would have to say on this. You'll notice I haven't mentioned specific passages. And the reason is, if I were to do that, A, I'd have to look them up to make sure I had the sources exactly correct, and B, it would take a lot of time. So what I'd like to do instead is have a copy of my book, the Fathers Know Best, sent to you. I did this book a number of years ago where I went through the Church Fathers on, like, almost 50 topics, including the Virgin Mary and including her perpetual virginity and her immaculate conception and Assumption. And in each chapter I go through quotations from the early Church Fathers, starting with the earliest references and then proceeding to later ones. So you can see how a concept was present and how it developed over the course of time. And that should give you the kinds of references you're looking for. So, Edgar, if we can have Keith hang on the line, we'll send him a free copy of the Fathers Know Best and that should help you out. Does that sound good, Keith?
- [37:51]
Keith
It sounds pretty good, but I've already got that book. I just hadn't got to that part yet.
- [37:55]
Jimmy Akin
Oh, well, then keep reading it. Why don't we then send you another book? Do you have a daily defense?
- [38:03]
Keith
No, I don't.
- [38:04]
Jimmy Akin
Okay, well, that's a 365 day book that I did. Each day is a different challenge to either faith or the Christian faith or the Catholic faith, and I then defend against them. And as someone who's in the process of becoming Catholic, it's the kind of thing that could help, you know, deal with objections you may have encountered or you may yet encounter on your journey to the Church. Okay.
- [38:34]
Keith
All right. That sounds great.
- [38:35]
Jimmy Akin
Yeah.
- [38:36]
Edgar Lujano
All right, great. Thanks, Keith. Yeah, hang on the line and we'll go ahead and get that book out to you absolutely free. We're going to take our last break for the hour. When we come back, more questions with Jimmy Akin.
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Edgar Lujano
Go to Mass is because if you look in the catechism, you will see the fruits of Holy Communion. And these are remarkable things that we can receive at every Mass that we attend. We encounter the risen Lord and he shares something of his divine life and love with us.
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Promotional Announcer
The holy sacrifice of the Mass. Live from the EWTN Chapel every morning, 8 Eastern on EWTN radio and television.
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Edgar Lujano
Did you know that@shop.catholic.com every day is like Black Friday. We've gone and lowered prices. Store wide on the very, very, very best books you can give to any Catholic or more importantly, someone who is considering the Catholic Church. So come to shop.catholic.com now and check out these deals. We've got plenty of them. From five books for $30. There's 26 different bundles. You can get Bibles and catechisms. Great gifts. Catholic gifts for everyone on your list. So what are you waiting for? Run, do not walk to shop catholic.com or I guess you can't run or walk to the Internet, can you, Jimmy? So it makes no sense.
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Jimmy Akin
Metaphorically.
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Edgar Lujano
Metaphorically run, don't walk the shop.catholic.com today and load up on a great bargain store wide. Let's go over to Alba and Anna, both of them calling from Honduras, listening to us on YouTube. Welcome to the show Alba and Anna.
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Keith
Hello.
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Edgar Lujano
Hi there. Go right ahead.
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Katie
So my question is, does Jesus sleep in heaven?
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Jimmy Akin
Okay. Does Jesus sleep in heaven? Well, the church does not have a teaching on this, so this is something that we have to speculate about. Just do our best to try to figure it out. So I'll tell you my opinion on this. Even though we don't have any statement in the even though the Bible never talks about sleeping in heaven or it just never talks about that one way or the other, it does talk about how we're not going to be doing in heaven. Some things that we do in this life. Like we won't need to eat, for example. St. Paul mentions that. And so I would say if we don't have bodily needs like eating, then we probably also won't have bodily needs like sleeping. So my opinion is that Jesus does not sleep in heaven, that he is always awake and he never gets tired.
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Edgar Lujano
How's that, Ana?
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Katie
Okay. Thank you.
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Edgar Lujano
Thank you, Ana. Yeah. Thank you for your call. Well, Jimmy, we have plenty of lines open, so if anybody has a question, we can take your question. 888-31-87884. That's 8831. Truth to ask a question.
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Jimmy Akin
I think that's the first time you've given the phone number this al.
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Edgar Lujano
It is. It only took about 43 and a half minutes. It's great. Perfect. All right. I'm going to have to set a timer or let's see, a whiteboard with all the. See how long we can wait before we actually give the number. So, so far, Jimmy, you have the record, mainly because this is the first time we're testing it. So. All right, let's go over to see here. Who do we have? We're going to go over to Brian in Stanton, Virginia. I think Michael dropped off there. So, Brian in Stanton, Virginia, listening to us on Sirius XM satellite Radio. Brian, welcome to the show. Go. Right. Well, hold on a second. I got to hit the button. Go ahead, Brian. Hi there.
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Brian
Thanks for taking my call. So I came through RCIA probably 12 or more years ago. And I guess the question I have is, I believe at that time I learned that both the consecrated host and the consecrated wine were the body and blood of Jesus. But they call them different species. But in the Gospel, Jesus breaks the bread and says, this is my body, and then holds a chalice up and says, this is my blood. And the Catholic Church seems to take this pretty literally. So I just wanted to know, are the consecrated host and wine both the body and blood of Jesus? Or are they different? Or one the body and one the blood?
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Jimmy Akin
Okay, so there are several aspects to this question. Let me see if I can go through them fairly expeditiously. The first thing is Jesus says, this is my body, and this is my blood. And St. Paul confirms that when we receive the body and blood of Christ, that we really are participating in the body and blood of Christ. He doesn't say these are symbols. Jesus doesn't say they're symbols. Paul positively says that they are a participation in the body and blood of Christ. And so the vast majority of Christians down through history have always understood that Christ is really present. Now, what we're inquiring about here, and the church teaches that Christ is really present. What we're Inquiring about here is the way in which he's present. Now, there is no doubt that in the Gospels, Jesus, with regard to the bread that he's consecrating, he says, this is my body. And with regard to the chalice he's holding, he says, this is my blood. And. And he hasn't put the chalice in. He hasn't put the bread in the chalice. So they are depicted separately. And the classic understanding for why that is is because it prefigures what he's going to do the next day on the cross. His body and blood are going to be separated in death on the cross, and that's why he depicts them separately at the Last Supper. Now, even then, even when they are literally separated on the cross, you know, they nailed him up and blood came out and everything like that. And then they speared him in the side and his blood came out. So Jesus's blood is on the ground, you know, it's separated from his flesh, but even then it's not 100% of his blood. Even when they try to to. The technical term for removing someone's blood is exsanguination. And even when they try to totally exsanguinate someone, they never get all the blood out. So even when there was a literal separation between his body and blood, it wasn't a total separation. There was still some in there. The question is, what about now are his body and blood separated it now? And the Church understands that he is really present in the Eucharist, but there's not like a time warp here back to AD33. Instead, it's his heavenly body that becomes present in the elements of the Eucharist. And so today in heaven, his body and blood are not separate. And that's why both the appearance of bread and the appearance of wine have both his body and blood under them, because literally they're not separate anymore. His body contains his blood in heaven, and so that's what becomes present under the appearance of bread. In the same way, his blood is contained within his body, and so that's what becomes present under the appearance of wine. Now, theologians will commonly say there is a difference in that the appearance of bread, properly speaking, connects to his body, and his blood is also there. But the appearance of bread, properly speaking, connects to his body, and the appearance of wine, properly speaking, connects to his blood, but his body is also there. The fancy term for that also being there is concomitance. So the way you'd say it is the appearance of bread. Sometimes the term Species is used, although that has some philosophical baggage. That's not actually part of what the Church teaches. That's why I tend to use appearance, which is another term the Magisterium uses. But properly speaking, the appearance of bread contains the body of Christ, and his blood is present by concomitants. And the appearance of wine, properly speaking, contains his blood, and his body is also thereby concomitant. So there is a difference in that the appearance of bread is properly, most directly connected to his body, and the appearance of wine is properly, most directly connected to his blood. It's just that because his body and blood are united in heaven, the other is also there in both cases.
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Brian
Okay, I guess.
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Jimmy Akin
Yeah.
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Brian
The heavenly him being in heaven in his heavenly body. I think that was a missing piece there. Yeah, that was a great explanation, though.
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Jimmy Akin
Yeah, no problem.
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Edgar Lujano
Thanks.
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Jimmy Akin
Thank you.
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Edgar Lujano
Thank you, Brian. Thank you for your question.
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Brian
Yeah, thanks very much.
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Edgar Lujano
You're very welcome. God bless you, Brian. Let's go over to Andrew in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. Andrew, go right ahead with your question.
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Andrew
Hello, Jimmy. So, yeah, my name is Andrew. I'll go ahead and get. Yeah, I'll go ahead and get right to my question. So I just went through OCIA this year about six months ago, and my question is it's kind of about parish life. So. So I would say I've got the head knowledge portion of Catholicism covered. Like, I can recognize from history the, you know, this or that fact, and I can say it checks out. But my question is, pretty much, what advice would you offer to a young Catholic who doesn't feel any community with the young men at his parish? I could go on, on that if you'd like me to.
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Jimmy Akin
Well, let me take a stab at it, because we're getting close to the end of the hour, and I don't want to get you cut off. First of all, congratulations on coming into the church. And your experience is not unique. You know, different church and people's experience varies from parish to parish. What I would say is, look. Look at your parish bulletin or talk to one of your parish priests and say, hey, I'd like to meet some more young Catholic men. Where can I do that one? Now, some parishes have a youth group, and you might check that out. You might go to some meetings and see if that's what you're interested in. Other parishes have Bible studies. You might go to a Bible study and see if you meet people there that you'd be interested in knowing. Another group that's in a lot of parishes is the Knights of Columbus. And you might, you know, investigate the Knights of Columbus. And that's a men's organization, so you'd meet exclusively men there. There are other possibilities, too. There are groups you might volunteer with in the parish, like, I don't know, the choir. Or maybe there's. Maybe there's a parish school that has sports and they need volunteer coaches. But I would simply take a look at the. At the parish bulletin and also talk to the parish priest or one of the parish priests or even the church secretary and just explain what you're interested in doing. Hey, I'd like to meet some. Some other men, preferably ones my age, and they can help you make connections. And if your parish doesn't have any such opportunities, then I would suggest two things. The first one is, well, now that you're Catholic, you could create such an opportunity. You could start a young men's group. You need permission to do that. But if there isn't one, you know, you can say, hey, I think it'd be a great idea for young people or young men to be able to get together. I'd like to start a group. And if they say no, or if there just aren't any, you know, young men to meet in your parish, you could take option two, which is find a new parish. Parish. I'm pretty sure that they have some other parishes within the vicinity of Murfreesboro. So, you know, looking around and seeing other Catholic groups, maybe you want to go to one parish, but attend a Bible study or a men's group or Knights of Columbus in another parish. So I would say there are quite a number of options here.
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Edgar Lujano
How's that, Andrew?
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Andrew
Yeah, I mean, it's good advice. It's stuff I've heard before, but I'll. I'll elaborate just a little bit, and I'll be quick. So.
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Jimmy Akin
Okay.
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Andrew
I have met real quick with the. Yeah, of course. Well, I have met with the young adult groups at my parish and. And so on. But I guess the difficulty is I like video games and board games and tabletop RPGs and all the other young adults at the parish like sports. And I'm. I don't mean this in a negative way. They like Normie things, and I've tried hosting, you know.
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Jimmy Akin
Okay.
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Andrew
And a couple.
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Jimmy Akin
Yeah, so I. I understand. I'm a fellow nerd, so it sounds like. And I only. I hate to interrupt, but we're right at the end of the hour. I would say, you know, keep hosting events like that, and maybe some of the people from your parish will develop an interest or invite people from other local parishes or even invite other people who aren't even Catholic. And you know, you might also look online for some people you might want to play games with online or you might meet them online and then invite them to your group if they're local. So that's how I would proceed in that kind of a circumstance.
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Edgar Lujano
Andrew, thank you so much for your question there. Hopefully that was helpful. That's going to be that's going to do it for us for this hour. But we do have a whole second hour and, and Jimmy, I'm not going to give the phone number out because the lines are full again, so.
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Jimmy Akin
Okay.
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Edgar Lujano
All right. So we'll leave it at that for this hour. So if you're on the line, stay on the line. Jonathan, Michael, Bernard, Sherry, hang on the line. We'll get to you in the second hour. And this is an Ask Me Anything Catholicism with Jimmy Akin right here on Catholic Answers Live.