#12473 Why Didn’t God Make Everyone Sinless? – Why Aren’t You Catholic? - Karlo Broussard

Summary

Catholic Answers Live — “Why Didn’t God Make Everyone Sinless? / Why Aren’t You Catholic?”

Host: Cy Kellett (A)
Apologist/Guest: Dr. Karlo Broussard (B)
Date: November 25, 2025
Episode #: 12473

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Episode Overview

This episode of Catholic Answers Live continues their engaging series “Why Aren’t You Catholic?”—an open invitation to non-Catholic callers to share their reasons for not joining the Catholic Church. Dr. Karlo Broussard, resident apologist and author, answers questions with charity and detail, focusing especially on the theological question: Why didn’t God make everyone sinless, as He did with Mary? The episode also features questions about the papacy, the nature of hell, community in Catholic parishes, and the role of faith and baptism in salvation.

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Key Discussion Points & Callers’ Questions

1. Why Didn’t God Make Everyone Sinless Like Mary? (05:18–14:30)

Caller: Isaiah (Kentucky)

Theological Challenge:

Isaiah, transitioning from Protestantism, asks:

• If God could make Mary sinless without removing her free will, why doesn’t He do so for everyone?
• He references Romans 9 and concerns about predestination/double predestination.

Dr. Broussard’s Response:

• God does not “choose” some for hell in the sense of positively willing it; damnation is only the result of dying in mortal sin, i.e., the abuse of free will. (06:09)
• God’s permission is necessary for sin to occur: “If God were not permitting the sin … there would be no sin because he would be moving the will to obey God's law.” (07:03)
• Mary’s sinlessness: She retained real, metaphysical free will, and could have sinned, but God’s grace moved her perfectly to choose the good. “She had a real potential to choose sin, but due to God's grace moving her to always conform to his will, she never in fact chose sin.” (07:46)
• Romans 9 (Honorable vs. Dishonorable Vessels):
  • God is not obliged to grant supernatural gifts (grace) to all, only what is owed to human nature. “He can give certain supernatural gifts more to some than to others... Paul in Romans 9 speaks of them as being honorable...” (09:41)
  • The permitted evil “contributes to the good of the order” in ways we may not yet understand. (11:31)
• Admits Mystery: There remains a “darkness of mystery” as to why God gives the “Marian grace” uniquely, but bows in humility. (13:53)
• Notable Quote:
  • “Damnation is a result of the abuse of free will alone...” (06:39, Broussard)

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2. Is God’s “Lack of Grace” the Reason Some Go to Hell? (12:23–14:31)

Caller: Isaiah (continued)

• Isaiah asks if those who go to hell do so because God withholds the grace He gave to Mary.

• Broussard: “No, it would not be the lack of grace that sends people to hell. It's the abuse of free will that sends people to hell.” (12:43)

  • God's permission is a condition for any act, good or evil.
  • The uniqueness of Mary’s grace is, in part, a mystery, though some theological explanations exist.

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3. Is Peter—or Jesus—the Rock of the Church? (17:30–23:59)

Caller: Mackenzie (Washington), Latter-Day Saint

Objection:

• LDS teaching rejects the doctrine that Peter is the foundation of the Church; the Church must belong to Christ, not Peter.

Broussard’s Response:

• Catholics agree: “The church is not Peter's; it's Jesus Christ's church. He says, 'I will build my church.'” (18:34)
• Delegated authority: Jesus appoints Peter as a visible, earthly foundation—just as an owner delegates leadership to a CEO, maintaining ultimate ownership.
• Jesus is the real foundation; Peter is his visible representative.
• Recommends reading Joe Heschmeyer’s “Pope Peter” for Scriptural arguments, and Eric Ibarra’s “The Papacy” for historical context.
  • “Just because you're a center leader...doesn't mean that group belongs to you if you have received delegated authority.” (19:13)
• Unity with Christ and Peter can coexist; “They’re not mutually exclusive.” (20:56)

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4. What’s the Nature of Hell? (24:35–38:14)

Caller: Fr. Pat (Columbus, Ohio)

Questions:

• Does hell have to be entirely punitive?
• Does God “respect our choice” for hell at the particular judgment? Is hell “eternal day at the pub” for someone who always chose that over God?
• Paul Thigpen’s “Gehenna” is cited.

Broussard’s Response:

• No new choice at the particular judgment: “That choice is irrevocable... The will is fixed.” (30:41)
• Punitive nature: Hell is necessarily punitive because the damned have chosen a lesser good over God—requiring “displeasure associated with it.” (34:00)
• Punishment/remediation: There may be some remediation—the damned come to know the truth (“sin does not make you happy”), which is a good but not one they can enjoy. (35:45)
  • “The intellect is dispelled of the false notion that sin makes you happy... but... they can’t enjoy the fruits of such an order to God.” (36:57)
• Notable Quote:
  • “For hell... it would be punitive in nature precisely because those numbered among the damned have made a positive act of the will to... will some gravely immoral behavior that's incompatible with divine love...” (34:31)
  • “They can't experience joy from that good or delight in that good because they're so engrossed [in their own sin]...” (37:55)

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5. Why Is Catholic Community So Lacking Compared to Protestant Churches? (38:30–43:45)

Caller: Seth (Tennessee)

Objection:

• Coming from vibrant Protestant community, finds Catholic parishes less welcoming; wants to know how Catholic community is lived, especially for newcomers.

Broussard’s Response:

• Candidly admits this is an unfortunate reality in many parishes, but not all. (39:28)
• The primary reason to be Catholic: Obedience to Christ, not community feeling—community is a fruit, not the root, of faith. (41:07)
• Be the change: Possibly the Holy Spirit is prompting convert-minded people (like Seth) to be the catalysts for community renewal in parishes. (41:59)
• “We as Catholics should be the ones with the most vibrant community, because we have the principle of life itself, Jesus in the Eucharist.” (39:34)
• Notable Quote:
  • “If you are one to see that there is a lack of communal experience... that could very well be a prompt of the Holy Spirit that God is calling you to do something about it, my friend.” (41:59)

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6. Isn’t Belief Enough? Why Do Catholics Add Baptism, Repentance, Etc.? (47:07–54:07)

Caller: Thomas (Omaha, Nebraska)

Concern:

• Gospel of John says “believe” for eternal life—no mention of Marian dogmas, sacraments, or needing the Church. Why does Catholic soteriology seem more complicated?

Broussard’s Response:

• Both/And approach: Faith and baptism.
  • “Belief is necessary for salvation... but part of that revelation is that baptism has been instituted by Christ as the ordinary way through which we receive the initial grace of salvation.” (48:55)
• Scripture supports both:
  • John 3:5 (born of water and spirit)
  • 1 Peter 3:21 (“Baptism now saves you”)
  • Romans 6:3-7 (justification through baptismal death)
  • Acts 2:38 (repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins)
• Faith brings us to baptism; baptism is the ordinary means by which we receive saving grace and the fuller theological virtues (faith, hope, charity).
• Responds to objection that Jesus in John simply tells people to “believe”:
  • “We agree Jesus goes around saying, 'you got to believe.' ... further instruction would be given to 'repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins'” (54:07)
• Notable Quote:
  • “Being Catholic is primarily about love of Jesus, love of Christ, insofar as we believe and are convinced that Christ started the Catholic Church.” (41:07)

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Notable Quotes & Highlights

• On Predestination & Sinlessness:
  “God is not bound to give us any graces that are over and above our nature... He can give certain supernatural gifts more to some than to others...” (09:44, Broussard)

• On Hell:
  “Hell must be punitive in nature precisely because those numbered among the damned have made a positive act of the will to either reject God outrightly or to will some gravely immoral behavior...” (34:31, Broussard)

• On Catholic Community:
  “If you are one to see that there is a lack of communal experience... that could very well be a prompt of the Holy Spirit that God is calling you to do something about it, my friend.” (41:59, Broussard)

• On Faith and Salvation:
  “Faith brings us to baptism; baptism is the ordinary means by which we receive saving grace and the fuller theological virtues (faith, hope, charity).” (51:50, paraphrased)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–04:45 — Thanksgiving banter and introductions
• 05:18–14:31 — Isaiah (Why aren’t we all made sinless?; Romans 9; Mary and predestination)
• 17:30–23:59 — Mackenzie (Papacy and authority: Peter as the rock vs. Christ)
• 24:35–38:14 — Fr. Pat (Nature of hell; punitive vs. remedial aspects; choice at judgment)
• 38:30–43:45 — Seth (Catholic parish community vs. Protestant)
• 47:07–54:07 — Thomas (Gospel of John: belief, baptism, and salvation)

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Memorable Moments

• Dr. Broussard’s humility in admitting theological mystery:
  “Let me just bow in humility and accept that darkness of mystery... as to why God ordered this order of Providence where he’s only given that grace to Mary in the way that he did.” (13:53)

• Friendly challenge to converts:
  “Do not let the lack of communal experience... be an impediment ... being Catholic is primarily about love of Jesus, love of Christ...” (41:07–41:28)

• Clear scriptural defense of Catholic doctrine, with rapid-fire citations and practical recommendations for further reading.

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Resources Mentioned

• Pope Peter by Joe Heschmeyer (on papal foundations)
• The Papacy by Eric Ibarra (history of the papacy)
• Baptism Now Saves You by Karlo Broussard

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Tone & Language

Dr. Broussard’s responses are pastoral, charitable, and philosophically rigorous, balancing doctrine and compassion (“I know that’s a lot, but you gave me three items there...” 11:44). The tone is both apologetic and inviting: callers are thanked, recommended resources, and encouraged to continue seeking and dialoguing.

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Summary for the Listener

Whether you're wrestling with the mystery of sin and grace, questioning papal authority, seeking a more welcoming church family, or pondering the precise nature of salvation, this episode thoughtfully examines major objections and struggles faced by inquirers and offers concrete, scripturally-rooted Catholic responses. Dr. Broussard demonstrates knowledge, patience, and openness to dialogue, making the Catholic worldview both accessible and intellectually honest—even where some mysteries must remain.

If you’re wondering why the Church teaches what it does—and what remains a divine mystery—you’ll find both clarity and humility in this episode.

Transcript

[A]

Buying or selling your home. Real Estate for Life can connect you with a pro life real estate agent. When Real Estate for Life receives a referral fee, they donate 65% to Catholic Answers. Learn more at realestateforlife.org. Hello and welcome to CATHOLIC ANSWERS Live. Turkey minus two days, I think where I think we're at Turkey minus two days, counting down Thanksgiving. Thanks very much for being here with us. Thanks for taking the time. And we're gonna have new shows Thursday and Friday. So check them out if you are of a mind, too. If you're Friday would be the perfect day because we're doing a leftover show and you're gonna be eating leftovers, and I'm gonna be eating leftovers, and everybody else in America is going to be eating leftovers. So join us Friday for the Leftover show. But we got a great show today. We got Dr. Carlo Broussard here with us for both hours. And why aren't you Catholic? And as I've been saying to people, we've really been loving doing these why aren't you Catholic? Episodes. And I'll tell you why. First of all, we get a lot of great questions and conversations going with folks who are not Catholic. And if you are not and you'd like to call, the number is 888-3187-784. And the other reason is it's this really kind of blessed moment in the church. I don't know if you've been reading the papers, but there's more and more talk. I mean, when the New York Times does an article called when did Catholicism become cool? You know, something's happening. People are interested in the Catholic faith. And so we've got to answer the questions that or meet the challenges, as Carlo does with those who are not Catholic. So 888-318-7884. Why aren't you Catholic if you're not Catholic and you're willing to talk it? We would love to take the time with you. 888-318-7884. Dr. Carla Broussard is apologist here at Catholic Answers. Prepare the Way. Overcoming obstacles to God, the Gospel and His Church. The two meeting the Protestant books. One is meeting the Protestant challenge, the other one meeting the Protestant response. Purgatory. Purgatory. Purgatory. I can't even I haven't even had any turkey yet. Purgatory is for real. The saints pray for you, and baptism now saves you. And with that book, his library officially became a pile of books. He's got A pile of books out there. That was the one that put him over the top. Welcome. Dr. Carlo Broussard.

[B]

Cy Kellett. Thanks for having me, pal. It's great to be on with you. Happy Thanksgiving week, I should say.

[A]

Thank you. Yeah, Thanksgiving week, your family getting ready?

[B]

We're getting ready, man. Actually, my mother in law and Jacqueline's stepfather will be arriving at the house probably right about right now. So they're coming in from Arizona to spend some time with us for Thanksgiving. So we're grateful for that. To have some family over and create some holiday vibe.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And so we're looking forward to the good food and fellowship and conversation and hanging out and enjoying the holiday.

[A]

Who does the turkey in your family?

[B]

Who's my wife? My lovely wife Jacqueline. She cooks it and she does it. Pretty darn good job, man.

[A]

It's not easy to cook a turkey, man. The.

[B]

I admit, I admit I will lay my cards on the table. And for all my Cajun friends in Louisiana, I am a disgrace as a Cajun man who cannot cook. I apologize. I know, I'm sorry.

[A]

Goodness.

[B]

But it is what it is.

[A]

I never knew this. You know, you think you know somebody and then the dark side comes out. Like the real negative stuff comes out like, wow.

[B]

Well, listen, man, I mean, mom and dad just always cooked and it was so good. And I just.

[A]

You're like, somebody else is doing it. Why should I learn how to do it?

[B]

Exactly. I guess, I guess my 15 year old is more like me in more ways than none right now. Somebody else could do it. Why? Well, just let them do it. I'm not gonna rob them of their opportunity to manifest their skills and show charity and love for others.

[A]

Have you ever heard of the word rationalization? Have you ever heard that, that term.

[B]

Let me think about that one.

[A]

Have you ever seen or done, maybe not done because you don't cook, but seen when they fry a turkey, when they just heat up the. Have you seen it? I've never had that. I've never.

[B]

Yeah, I recall at some points in my childhood going to some family members houses where they fry a turkey. Not too often.

[A]

I wouldn't mind eating it, but I would never do it because I am not that kind of. I'm the guy where you see the film of, oh, this is when they had to take him to the hospital. You know, that looks so dangerous to me. All right, the number is 8883-1878-8488-8318-7884. Why aren't you Catholic. And we'll start in Kentucky. Isaiah is in Kentucky, watching on YouTube. Thanks for calling Isaiah. Why aren't you Catholic?

[C]

Yes. So I have an issue. And I'm not even opposed to Catholicism. I just have an issue because I'm coming out of Protestantism. But it's, it's, it's this specific thing, right? Mary is sinless. And I was asking apologists, a Catholic apologist specifically, I was asking him, okay, she's sinless, but does that not get rid of her free will? He said, no, it just allowed her to cooperate with the grace of God perfectly. I said, okay, so why doesn't God do that with everybody? Since God can.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[C]

If God wants everyone to be saved. But then I had an issue in Romans 9 as well when I cross referenced where he said he made people for honorable use and then dishonorable use. So my question is, if Mary is sinless, then does that not mean directly or indirectly that God chooses people to go to heaven or hell?

[B]

Okay, very good question. So I'm going to take that last part of the question first. When you stated the question as God choosing some to go to hell, we have to make sure we understand what we mean by that. If you mean by that that God positively wills somebody to go to hell in the sense that he orders them towards hell, like making them for the sake of hell as their ultimate destination, and or meaning that God positively moves their will to sin, as is the case, as I understand Calvin, John Calvin's writings, we would deny that God does not choose someone to go to hell. In those senses, hell is the result only of someone dying in mortal sin, which involves a rejection of God explicitly or at least rejecting God in some grave immoral behavior that's diametrically opposed to love of God. And so damnation is a result of the abuse of free will alone. Now, with that said, it is true that God's permission of someone to die in that state of mortal sin is what we call a sine qua non, that without which something cannot be. Because if God were not permitting the sin, a sin that I commit now, or the sin of dying in rejection of God, if God did not permit that, there would be no sin because he would be moving the will to obey God's law and choose the good. So whenever we do have the reality of sin, the abuse of free will against God, whether right now or at the moment of death, dying in that rejection of God, we know God must be permitting it. And it is true that from all eternity God knows whom he will permit to fall into that sin and abuse free will and thereby merit damnation. So that's my response to that last part of the question. Now, the first part of the question, Isaiah, which was a fantastic question with regard to Mary being sinless and whether or not she still has free will, I would agree with that apologist who gave you the answer. Yes, she still had free will. When God moves her will, when God moved her will throughout her entire life, moving her will to choose the good God, the Creator as Creator is able to preserve the real potential of her will to do otherwise. And insofar as Mary has that potential to do otherwise, like it were it was possible in reality for Mary to sin, metaphysically speaking, she had that potential to do otherwise. Her will was not necessitated to the good, like the blessed are in heaven right now. She had a real potential to choose sin, but due to God's grace moving her to always conform to his will, she never in fact chose sin. And so that would be at least one way to articulate how God preserved her free will. Metaphysically speaking, in reality, she had a real possibility to do otherwise and sin, but in fact she did not due to God's grace. Now finally, you mentioned Romans, chapter 9 with regard to those who are honorable and dishonorable. That's the text that refers to Jacob and Esau, hyperbolic languages used there, according to Old Testament, where God says, I hate Esau. That's a Hebrew idiom for not giving as many goods to Esau as He did to Jacob. So that raises the question, is it within the divine right, the divine prerogative, to give more goods to some than to others? Absolutely yes. God is not bound to give us any graces that are over and above our nature. He's only bound in justice to Himself to give us what belongs to our nature. And so for us, he creates us as human beings. When it comes to supernatural aid, such as grace, order toward our salvation, and the divine plan throughout all of salvation history, that's over and above our nature. So God is not bound to give us that. So he can give certain supernatural gifts more to some than to others, and so insofar as he gives more gifts to some. Paul in Romans 9 speaks of them as being honorable insofar as he permits some to fall into sin, not giving them the extra aid that is not even due to them. That's what Paul means as dishonorable. But even that permission of sin in some way, shape or form fits within the whole order of God's providential plan. Which contributes to the good of the order. We might not see that currently right now due to the limitations of our knowledge and our intellect, but we do know when all things are revealed at the end of time, Isaiah, that we will see intellectually the goodness of that ordered plan that has as a part in it fitting perfectly the divine permission of some sin and ultimate and even some sin unto death. Again, just because we can't see that the goodness of that ordered plan now doesn't mean it's not there. We know philosophically that there must be a good to the order that the permitted evil fits into, and even possibly there is a greater good for others that God orders the permitted evil toward. Now, I know that's a lot, but you gave me three items there on the table and I wanted to do justice to the legitimacy of the questions. These were very good, insightful questions and I appreciate them. So sigh. I don't know if you want to try to get a response from Isaiah, I'll leave it up to you.

[A]

I'll tell you what, Isaiah, we can do a quick one and then I've got to do a break. Do you have a quick response, Carlo, or go ahead.

[C]

I do have. I do have a very, very, very quick response. So what it would it be fair to say to make the claim that God isn't based on your response? God is not causing people to go to hell, but his lack of grace because the grace he gives to Mary he can also give to others, but he doesn't for whatever reason. Would it be his lack of grace that sends people to hell?

[B]

I guess no, it would not be the lack of grace that sends people hell to hell. It's the abuse of free will that sends people to hell. But God's permission of that abuse of free will, which also involves he's not giving the grace that is a condition for somebody to even abuse their free will and reject God. Just like God's divine causality, Isaiah is a condition for you to call me right now. God's divine causality is a condition for you to rejoice in the Lord and to experience supernatural movements of the heart and the mind that we call grace. Similarly, God's permission is a condition that must be present in order for there to even be sin. Because as I said earlier, if God were not permitting it, he would be causing us to do the good. So that there is sin that a condition for that to even be is God permitting it. And there is a bit of a mystery insofar as God willing this order of providence to in which you only have one creature who is moved by God's grace to always choose the good for whom he never permits to enter into sin, but everybody else he does. That is a bit of a mystery. Now, we could offer some theological explanations to shed a little bit of light within that darkness. But let me just bow in humility and accept that darkness of mystery there as to why God ordered this order of Providence where he's only given that grace to Mary in the way that he did, and not some other order of Providence where he gives everybody that quote unquote Marian grace. I do have some thoughts on that, but I think we need to stop right here because I know we got to go to a break.

[A]

Isaiah, thank you for the call. We will go to the break. It's why aren't you Catholic today? If you're not a Catholic for whatever reason, maybe you're not a believer, you don't believe in God at all. Maybe you're a Protestant Christian or an Orthodox Christian. Maybe no one's ever told you about the Catholic faith and so that's why you're whatever your reason is if you're not a Catholic. We'd love to talk with you today. 888-318-7884 Catholic Answers Live do you have.

[B]

A question but prefer to ask it privately? Catholic Questions can help. Go to CatholicQuestions.com to ask your question online. Email us, drop us a letter or give us a call.

[A]

Longtime Catholic Answers Live apologist and author.

[B]

Jim Blackburn or another Catholic Questions apologist will be happy to assist you. Catholic Questions proudly supports Catholic Answers Live, so Visit [e-mail] today. That's CatholicQuestions.com underwriting for Catholic Answers Live is provided by Magnificat. Published monthly, Magnificat features texts of daily Mass, prayers, articles, meditations, art commentaries and more in step with the liturgical rhythm of the church. On the [e-mail] EWTN Teaching the Truth well, I don't think we're like the.

[C]

Typical college students because we really hang.

[B]

Out at our campus ministry and everything. It's amazing about how much more connected you feel. We share really cool articles from actually you guys, EWTN and like what you were saying about evangelization, so that's really nice. EWTN Live Truth Live Catholic.

[A]

Welcome back to CATHOLIC Answers Live. It's Thanksgiving week and you know what's lurking at the end of that? Black Friday. But shop.catholic.com says let's not wait till Black Friday We've got the actual antidote to the annual hot Mess Express. I guess that's what we're calling Black Friday today. Treat yourself, your friends and the family and hit up shop.catholic.com for the My Black Friday sale. Promo code myblackfriday equals a whole cornucopia of deals because we're seasonal like that. Use promo code [e-mail] Dr. Carlo Broussard is our guest and we're talking to non Catholics today. We're asking, if you're not a Catholic for whatever reason, if you're willing to talk with us about it, why aren't you Catholic? So off we go to Pasco, Washington, where MACKENZIE is listening on 100.7 FM. Holy Spirit Sanctifier Radio. MacKenzie, welcome. Why aren't you Catholic?

[C]

Well, I am actually Latter Day Saint. And the reason I'm going to read a little something that's fairly short, but it will explain my question a little bit better.

[A]

If it's short, you can do it.

[C]

In the course of the. Huh?

[A]

If it's short, you can do it.

[C]

It is.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

In the course of the general apostasy following the ministry of the apostles, an erroneous doctrine was promulgated to the effect that Peter was the rock upon which the Church of Christ was founded. And the Bishop of Rome laid a claim to supreme authority as the alleged lineal successor to Peter. But it also goes on to say that if a church founded upon Peter or any other man would be that person's church and not Jesus Christ. But it also says that Peter was the presiding apostle is not questioned. However, the church was not his, but Christ.

[B]

Okay, well, mackenzie, we actually agree with the fact that the church is not Peter's. It's Jesus Christ's church. He says, I will build my church. But it doesn't follow from that that he cannot appoint some person to be the visible foundation of that church that he is building. So to say that Peter is the visible foundation, the rock of Jesus Church no more makes the church Peter's than the head of the Kansas City Chiefs when he went out and hired Patrick Mahomes and said, Patrick Mahomes, we're going to build this organization around you, man. Makes Patrick Mahomes the owner of the Chiefs. The Kansas City Chiefs. Right. You can. Just because you're a center leader of a particular group doesn't mean that group belongs to you if you have been appointed by and have received delegated authority from the person who originates and constitutes the group. So in the Catholic. On The Catholic view, MacKenzie, even though we affirm that Peter is the rock of the church, the foundation of the Church, that's only part of the story. The whole story is that we believe Peter was constituted by Jesus to be the visible foundation of his church here on earth. We believe Jesus is ultimately the foundation because it's his church. We profess with St. Paul in First Corinthians, chapter 10. I think it is actually First Corinthians, chapter 3, verse 10, that Jesus is the foundation of the church, ultimately speaking. But that doesn't mean he can't graft someone like Peter into himself to be a visible representative of him as the foundation, thereby making him a visible principle and source of unity for the Church that he, Jesus, builds on earth. So it's just simply a non sequitur. You cannot conclude the conclusion Peter is not the rock of the Church doesn't necessarily follow from the antecedent. And saying that the church belongs to Jesus, we can have both. We can have Peter being the visible rock of his church of Jesus church here on earth, and it still be Jesus's church. They're not mutually exclusive. So it seems to me that was the heart of the objection. What do you think of that, Mackenzie? Any thoughts in response?

[C]

Well, there were, you know, certain Protestant churches that were started by men who broke from the Catholic Church, hence the Protestant Reformation.

[B]

Yeah, we would agree with that.

[C]

Zwingli, Luther and the such.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

I mean, I don't know how they would, you know, the whole grafting thing when it would come to them, but it seems to me that what they did and how, I mean, how the leader of the Catholic Church itself, the spiritual, the person that, you know, God talks to and then relays his message to the rest of the church. Yeah, okay. Well, it really doesn't hold water with me.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would recommend a couple of resources for you, mackenzie. If you're concerned about reading about the historical testimony of our understanding of the St. Peter and the role that Christ gave him for his church and the succession of St Peter in the bishopric of Rome, which we believe is key to understanding the papacy and the leadership of the Bishop of Rome, I would recommend two resources for the biblical part of this view of our theology. I recommend Joe Heschmeyer's book, Pope Peter. That's published by us here at Catholic Answers, Catholic Answers Press. You can get [e-mail] and maybe if you stay on the line, MacKenzie, we can even send you a copy of that, that book. And then for The Historical case. I would recommend Eric Ibarra's book that's Y B A R R A. It's just called the Papacy Revisiting. I think it's the debate revisiting the debate between Catholics and orthodox. He does a great masterful job in presenting the historical case for the Bishop of Rome being the successor of St. Peter, having that spiritual leadership invested to that office by Christ to exercise leadership over the church, which ties into not only Matthew 16:18, but also MacKenzie, John 21. So just like Jesus tells Peter, feed my lambs, shepherd my sheep, all of his flock, that doesn't mean Jesus is not the shepherd of the flock. Jesus is ultimately the shepherd of his flock. But he appoints Peter, and we would argue by way of extension his successors, to represent Jesus, the ultimate shepherd here on earth in governing and leading the flock of Christ. And that's the same explanation that we would provide or the rationale behind how we view the papacy. So hopefully that answer is helpful and those resources can further help you go further in your research and inquiry. But thank you for the question and.

[A]

I would invite you to keep calling back. We'll send you the book. Maybe if you take a look at it, call and we'll continue the conversation. Conversation. Because it's an important conversation and I'm sure there are many LDS members who would also like to hear how a Catholic approaches these questions. So hang on. We'll send you Pope Peter the book from Joe Heschmeyer, if you just give us an address to send it to. Heading over to Columbus, Ohio, St. Gabriel Catholic Radio. Father Pat listening in Columbus, Ohio. I don't know why. I just have very warm feelings for the city of Columbus, Ohio. Father Pat, welcome.

[C]

Well, thank you very much. Grace and peace be with you and with your Savior.

[A]

Thank you, Father.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Carlo.

[C]

I loved your School of Apologetics course on Purgatory.

[B]

Oh, thank you, Father.

[C]

I'm looking forward to your next book, Hell Is for Real, the Mercy and Justice of God.

[B]

Father, I just gotta stop you right there. I hope and pray that Todd Aglieloro, our press director, is listening right now because, Father, you have read my thoughts in my soul. I have been thinking about this topic and wanting to do it and write something on it for quite some time. So I think this is a signal grace. So even though this is a show for non Catholics, we priests get, they're able to slip in because of divine providence. So thank you for sharing that with me. Father, I'm sorry I interrupted. Go forward with your question.

[A]

Go ahead Father.

[C]

Okay, my, my, my question is about the nature of hell.

[B]

Okay?

[C]

One proposition does there have to be a completely punitive nature to hell? And the second, at the particular judgment, God respects our choice, including, I guess, our choice for hell. Paul Thigpan, in his book Gehenna, described people in hell.

[A]

Hang on, Father I'm so sorry. You gotta hang on to the question. We'll be right back. Why do Catholics pray to dead people, bow to statues, venerate relics? And where do we find any of this stuff in the Bible? In the delightful book the Saints pray for your, Dr. Carla Broussard convincingly defends the ancient Christian belief, rooted in scripture, that the saints care for us, that they're our allies. Order your copy of the Saints Pray for your [e-mail] or ask for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you.

[B]

Why We're Catholic is the one book you can hand to anyone to invite them into or back to to the Catholic faith. With more than 400,000 copies sold, Trent Horne's book has had a number one ranking on Amazon.com for five years running. Now available in softcover book cases, ebook and on audible. Find out what the excitement is all about. Order your copies of why we're [e-mail] or visit whywearcatholic.com we hope that one.

[A]

Of the things that we communicate here at Catholic Answers Live is that our Catholic faith allows us to be fully serious about all the problems we encounter in the Church, Church and in the world. But it also lets us have light hearts and maybe even mix in a bit of fun. And that is exactly what our good friend Joe Heschmeyer does in his popular podcast Shameless Potpourri. You should check it [e-mail] Joe's got a deep grasp of the faith, morals, the teachings of the Church, all that. But he's also got a witty conversational style. He entertains and he informs, but you will leave equipped to to better answer the most common challenges, misconceptions and questions about the Catholic faith. He's got insightful guests he does on air debates, and he takes a close look into all the things that you want to know about as a Catholic living today. You'll walk away knowledgeable and filled with joy. Look for Joe on his YouTube channel. Check him [e-mail] or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you hear, become a patron. Welcome back to Catholic Answers Live. Dr. Carlo Broussard, our guest Father Pat on the Phone from Columbus, Ohio. And we have a policy. Any priest ever call from Columbus, Ohio, we let them on. It doesn't matter whether we know. We don't know if it's a priest from Columbus, Ohio. We let them on, but we usually treat him better. And I apologize, Father, I ran out of time. Heading right to the break there, so we're going to have to get.

[C]

Apology accepted.

[A]

Well, thank you, Father. Thank you. Would you mind running through the questions again on hell?

[C]

Yes, my question is about the nature of hell. One proposition has to deal with is hell a completely punitive situation.

[B]

And.

[C]

And the other deals with at the particular judgment, God would respect our choice, including our choice of hell. Paul Thigman in his book Gehenna, describes people in hell experiencing things they were addicted to in this life. So a correlation between our sins and the experience of hell. So consider a lifelong friend of mine who'd be about 80 now, 12 years, Catholic school, not practicing, dismissive of church authorities, still a good moral person. Prefers spending Sundays in the neighborhood pub, debating politics, complaining about the world, spreading conspiracy theories, etc. At the particular judgment, Jesus says, john, you have always chosen the pub over me. What do you choose now?

[B]

Okay.

[C]

If God gives them his choice, would his hell be an eternal day at the pub, never resolving anything? So, okay, how would I relate to God's justice and mercy?

[B]

Yeah. So with regard to the set, you. So you, you. There's. Those are two packed questions there, Father, and I'll see if I can do them justice in the short time that we have. So I'm going to take the second first with regard to the choice that one, so you suggest, could make when they stand before Christ. So it belongs to Catholic teaching, which we can know biblically by way of divine revelation. But also it would follow from the philosophical analysis of choices that we make within the incorporeal state that there is no choice to be made at the particular judgment. For that choice, for or against God ultimately can only be had on this side of the grave, on this side of the veil, such that when we die, whatever choice we're making, whether God is our ultimate life's goal or not, God is our ultimate's life goal. That choice is irrevocable. That is to say, the will is fixed and you cannot change that fundamental orientation of the soul. The particular judgment, Father, comes after death. According to Hebrews 9:27, it's appointed to every man to die once. Then the judgment. This is the day that Paul describes in First Corinthians 3, 11, 15, which is a classic text for purgatory. So there is no choice to be made at the particular judgment. So that's the first point that I wanted to make to offer that clarification. If somebody dies with the choice for God as their ultimate life's goal, Heaven is theirs. They're numbered among the elect. If someone dies not choosing God with God, not as their life's goal. In your scenario that you articulated, Father, choosing the pub in the place of God, such that the pub is the ultimate life's goal, or at least the physical pleasure associated with the publisher, then they're dying outside of friendship with God. And hell would be their lot now, as opposed. Whether or not their durational existence in the afterlife is like forever being in the pub, being sorrowful and stuff like that, I don't know. I mean, that's up for our imagination to think about. Which leads me to the first question that you brought up, which is very, very insightful, and it's a good question, Father. Does there have to be completely punitive? Does hell have to be completely punitive in nature? That's how I understood the question. Now, it depends upon what you're trying to emphasize here, Father. If the question has to be. If the question is whether hell must be punitive, I would answer yes. That is to say hell must be a punishment imposed upon the damned, rather than just simply lacking the beatific vision, like in the projected theological opinion of the limbo of the children, say those infants who die without baptism. And I underscore theological opinion in that scenario, in that proposed idea, there is no punishment in the sense of an imposed displeasure upon those individual souls. But for hell, Father, for the damned, it would be punitive in nature precisely because those numbered among the damned have made a positive act of the will to either reject God, God outrightly, explicitly, or to will some gravely immoral behavior that's incompatible with divine love or charity, such that they remain in their existence of that choice against God for the rest of their existence in hell, which merits an imposition of displeasure or punishment. Why? Because insofar, Father, as they chose some creaturely good evening in the place of the ultimate good God, they took pleasure where they ought not to have taken pleasure. They made. They engaged in a behavior and made a choice that requires displeasure associated with it. So insofar as they sinned and rejected God and died in that rejection of God, there is a disorder within the quote, unquote fabric of the divine economy. Pleasure was taken where there ought not to have been pleasure, and displeasure is Due to them, the damned. Consequently, hell must be punitive in nature. Now, finally, if the question is emphasizing completely punitive such that there's no room for any kind of remediation, I actually wrote on [e-mail] where I think there's a way to articulate the suffering of the damned in hell to involve at least some remediation. And it's this. The intellect is dispelled of the false notion that sin makes you happy. That's what they died thinking, sin would make them happy. But for the rest of their existence, that false idea is now dispelled and the mind will forever know the truth, that sin does not make you happy and only God makes you happy. I could articulate a few others, but that's at least one remediation that's not necessarily punitive in nature, but in some way, shape or form involves remediation. So if the question is emphasizing completely punitive without any sort of remediation, I would say no, perhaps there is this at least one form of remediation where the end of the damned come to know the truth about themselves, about God, and about the relationship between the two. It's just for the rest of their existence, they can't enjoy the fruits of such an order to God.

[A]

What do you think, Father?

[C]

Yeah, I was thinking that someplace along the line, I remember you saying something along the lines of the. In God's justice, there is even a good that they would experience.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. And the good. So assuming we're talking about the damned, the good, Father, that they would experience in damnation in hell is this very remediation that I was trying to articulate, namely, the intellect coming to know the truth that happiness does not lie in sin. That remediation of the mind, of coming to know what is true, that's a good. Right. And so we can say the damned experience that good. And then furthermore, the damned also experience the good of their very existence or being, which God, of course, is sustaining in being. That's a good. So again, completely punitive in the sense that there is no good experience. Well, I think we have to say no, not completely, because at least they have the good of knowing the truth now for the rest of their existence. And secondly, knowing the good of their existence. The problem, Father, is that for the damned, they can't experience joy from that good or delight in that good, but because they're so engrossed in, they cannot rejoice in the good, even though they come to know the good.

[A]

Father, I have to leave it there because we're going to keep moving on. But thank you very much. We appreciate the call. And on we go. Going to Tennessee. Jeff is in Tennessee, watching on YouTube. Jeff, thank you for your call. Why aren't you Catholic?

[C]

Yes, it's actually Seth.

[A]

Oh, hi, Seth.

[C]

You know, I. I actually don't have any qualms with the doctrine of Catholicism. In fact, you know, I recently was laid off in the tech world. The big layoffs a couple months ago, and I started diving.

[B]

I'm sorry to hear that.

[C]

My faith and we, we moved here to Tennessee and it was time to look for a church. Well, you know, you know, Holy Spirit was calling me to actually answer what's my theology. And the more I dove in, the more I saw the Catholic Church.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

However, I will say that, you know, God brought me here through plenty of Protestant churches that were heavy emphasis on. On community. And I gotta be honest, from a lived experience of. I've never really experienced that from the Catholic side now. So I just need to know some practical understanding of how that's lived out in a parish, especially for someone that would be brand new or. Or thinking of joining ocia.

[B]

All right, Seth. Man, oh man, oh, man. Brother. I just have to admit, unfortunately, it is a sad case among many Catholic churches throughout the country where that sense of community that you felt in the. At the Protestant church is just simply not had at a Catholic parish. And that is a sad fact, bro, precisely because we as Catholics should be the ones with the most vibrant community. Because we have the principle of life itself, Jesus in the Eucharist, man. And we have all of the sacraments to infuse the graces to bring about joy within our lives. Now, with that bad news said, two thoughts. Number one, there are some great Catholic parishes throughout the country who have vibrant communal life. What I mean by that is after Mass, there's actually coffee and donuts and fellowship people getting together. There are different ministries for the community throughout the week. Bible study, men's group, women's group, prayer groups, rosary groups on down the line. Many Catholic parishes throughout the country have those things. And that's the communal life that we all desire. We desire not only the fellowship of our. Our immediate family, but we like mother, father, children, wife, immediate family. We also desire the familial bond and experiencing the familial bond in relationship with other members in the mystical body of Christ. That's a movement of grace where God prompts us to desire that. Unfortunately, that desire is not met in some communities in Catholic churches, but others it is. So here's my second thought, Seth. Do not let the lack of communal experience of a particular Catholic parish be an impediment or keep you from becoming Catholic. And here's my simple reason. Because being Catholic is not primarily about having and experiencing that communal life with others. Being Catholic is primarily about love of Jesus, love of Christ, insofar as we believe and are convinced that Christ started the Catholic Church. That's why I need to be a member of the Catholic Church, because I want to obey Christ and be a part of the group that he started. Now, with that said, Seth, if you come into the church, my friend, you are being called by God. If you are one to see that there is a lack of communal experience and fellowship at a particular Catholic parish, that could very well be a prompt of the Holy Spirit that God is calling you to do something about it, my friend, to where God is moving you to be the solution to the problem. Because sometimes people just need to be woken up. They need to wake up. And sometimes that requires somebody to come in and say, hey, there's something missing here and we can make this better and here are some ways we can, we can do it. XYZ ABC and then you bring about that life, that communal life within the parish. So those are my thoughts to that. Hopefully that's helpful for you, my friend.

[C]

Oh, no, I think it's very helpful. I think you described it perfectly. Well, I'm, you know, the, the shock factor of, you know, you have Jesus in the moment in the flesh right there. And how is that not the most exciting thing on the plant to share with others? But thank you for your advice. I have, I have plenty of parishes to choose from around me, but yeah, I think this helps me in my discernment. So thank you.

[B]

You're welcome, my friend. And you know, I feel you, brother. Like, I think about this all the time. Like, why is it that we as Catholics, generally speaking, fall so short of that communal experience, but yet our Protestant friends in their communities have great communal experience? Now, you know, some people will often say, well, because they don't have the sacraments, they tend to focus their energy on the communal experience. And that's quote unquote, church for them. And there might be some truth to that, but that's no excuse, man, because we have the sacraments should be the reason why we have the most vibrant experience of communal life in the parishes. So thanks for the call again. Sigh.

[A]

I'll tell you what, Seth, if there's any Catholic Answers book that would be helpful to you, we'll be happy to send it to you. If there's one that you would like, just let Siobhan know. Siobhan's on the phones today, so you're talking to a big wig today. We got the big guns in here. If you let Siobhan know and give an address there in Tennessee, we'll send. I have to take a quick break. Right back with more. Why aren't you Catholic? At Catholic Answers Live, there's only one Catholic Answers Live.

[B]

Underwriting for Catholic Answers Live is provided by Real Estate for Life. Real Estate for Life connects home buyers and sellers to real estate agents while supporting pro life organizations.

[A]

On the [e-mail] one of the biggest mistakes a Christian can make is to try to do good without God's help. St Therese said, When we trust only ourselves and not God, our soul becomes incapable of virtue. Her remedy? Works of charity. And the greatest work of charity is to share the gospel. At St. Paul Street Evangelization, a Catholic nonprofit, we encourage you to share the gospel with someone who doesn't know Jesus. Catholic Answers is supported in part by St. Paul Street Evangelization. Streetevangelization.com.

[B]

Discover the beauty, truth and goodness of the church with the EWTN Online Learning Series. You can delve into the riches of the faith and grow closer to the Lord with free videos and study guides. Enroll in the EWTN Online Learning Series free courses today at learningseries.ewtn.com.

[A]

Welcome back, Catholic Answers Live. I am Cy kellett. Your host, Dr. Carlo Broussard is our guest. And I don't know how many years ago Prepare the Way, Overcoming Obstacles to God, the Gospel and the Church came out. That's got to be. I'm going to go with eight. I'm going to say eight years. Do you think that's about it?

[B]

Actually, it was 2015. We published it in 2015.

[A]

So that's 10 years. 10 years ago. And then meeting the Protestant Challenge, Meeting the Protestant response. Purgatory is for real. The saints pray for you about the communion of saints, A great book about the community of saints. And now the new book, Baptism Now Saves you, all [e-mail] that's a pile of books, Carl.

[B]

Yeah. You forgot one. The New Relativism.

[A]

Holy smokes. I forgot the New Relativism. I apologize because that.

[B]

That's all right.

[A]

Hey, man, I. Come on, Cyril, get your act together. I gotta be careful. I. I need to have better Self talk I gotta have. You know, you're supposed. Do you know what I'm saying, Jeff? You're supposed to have kind self talk. So you're not.

[B]

I'm sure ChatGPT will give you some consolation. Yeah, talk to GPT, Chat GPT.

[A]

Help me out with my problems. All right, let's go to Thomas in Omaha, Nebraska. And you know what happens if people are calling from Omaha, Nebraska? They're almost always listening on Spirit Catholic Radio, just one of the great Catholic radio networks. Hi, Thomas. Why aren't you Catholic?

[C]

Hey there. So thanks for taking my call. My issue is with, I guess, the Catholic Gospel or how to have eternal life. From my understanding, there's like three primary elements of space, repentance and baptism. And there's a lot more that goes into it. But from the Gospel of John, in John 20:31, yeah, he says these things I've written to you so that you may believe, and by believing, you have life in his name. And in Martha's confession, she just says, I believe, Lord. Yeah, And I feel like those things are not congruent because from my perspective, you know, there's nothing in the Gospel of John about Mary or about the Catholic Church. And if I don't sent to some of the things the Catholic Church has said, by their definition, I am not saved. So that's kind of where I. I run into issues.

[B]

All right, all right, so let's. Let me see if I can offer some thoughts and response and we'll get your feedback after. So first of all, you brought up this idea of believing and belief bringing about eternal life. And you brought up Mary, you know, our Lord, saying, do you believe? And Mary says, yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God. And that's in John, chapter 11, verses 25 through 27. We acknowledge 100%, Thomas, that belief is necessary for salvation. Not only the belief that precedes baptism, which is ordered toward the waters of baptism, but the very gift of faith that's given in baptism is that in virtue of which we are rightly ordered to God, animated by charity. So the belief that precedes baptism is the belief that we need to have to assent to what Jesus is revealing to us. And here's the key. We would argue that part of that revelation, Thomas, is that baptism has been instituted by Christ, given to us as the ordinary way through which we receive the initial grace of salvation or justification. So in order for me to be saved, I need to first believe with a gift of faith prior to baptism. We Call that the imperfect gift of faith. It's a gift from God, but we would argue it's not animated by charity. Yet it's akin to the faith that Cornelius had Thomas In Acts chapter 10, when he offered prayers to God, and it was received as God as a memorial prior to him receiving the salvific effect of justification or salvation from the Holy Spirit later in Acts chapter 10. So belief initially is necessary to receive Jesus and to believe on Jesus and the revelation that he has given us. But here's the key, Thomas. If it is part of that revelation that baptism is willed by Christ to be the means or the instrument through which the believer is going to receive that grace of salvation or justification, well, then the believer would need to do so to receive baptism in order to receive that salvation. And so we would argue, Thomas, as Catholics, that it's a matter of both. And given the revelation in Sacred Scripture, we see passages that speak of belief being necessary for salvation, and we see passages that speak of baptism being necessary for salvation. 1st Peter 3:21, Baptism now saves you. Romans 6:3,4. We die with Christ, we rise with Christ. Then in verse 7 of Romans 6, Paul says that through that baptismal death we are justified from sin. The Greek there is dikaio, justified from sin. John 3. 5, born again of water and spirit. I wrote a book on that, on that topic of baptism, and my whole first chapter is just on John 3. 5. And so we take all of those passages together, and whenever we synthesize them, we see what the Catholic Church teaches, that whenever the gospel is preached, when Jesus is revealed to us, we need to ascent, we need to believe. And that belief is a gift from God, as St. Thomas Aquinas would articulate. We would not be able to assent to that revelation if not moved by the Holy Spirit. But that belief in turn, is ordered toward receiving all of the revelation that Jesus has given to us, which we would argue includes the need to get baptized, to receive the second birth, the spiritual birth, from on high by water and spirit, and thereby receive the grace of justification, in virtue of which we are interiorly renewed and ordered to God as our ultimate life's supernatural goal. And so there you see, Thomas, this preceding faith is necessary, leading us to the waters of baptism, in which we receive the grace of justification, which also includes the supernatural gift of faith, where we believe God and everything that he has revealed to us, animated by charity. And that, Thomas, we would argue, is the faith that Paul talks about in virtue of which we are justified. Say in Romans 3:28 and in his letter to the Galatians. So in light of that biblical picture, we can affirm both the necessity of faith, both the preceding faith, the faith not animated by charity leading to the waters of baptism, and the theological gift of faith which is given in baptism, along with the theological virtues of hope and charity. What do you think in response, my friend?

[C]

I think that's a very good response. But. But when I look at how Jesus evangelizes, like in John 4 or in John 5, and he gives the example of believing, or really, in all of the chapters of John, he uses the word believe. And with the exception of John 3, which I would argue that's not talking about water baptism, but I'm sure you've researched that as well. But with the exception of John 3, he never tells anybody to get baptized. He's just telling them to believe and they would have life.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

All right, you look at that. Okay, go ahead.

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were finished. Go ahead and finish up there and I'll respond.

[C]

Yeah, so when we look at that, it's just that simple belief in his promise, gift of life. And it's at that moment that you believe, you receive that gift, and it will lead to a lot of love and acts of goodness.

[A]

Carlo, you only got a minute to respond, so you better.

[B]

Oh, yeah. We're coming up to the end of the show. Thomas. Notice there was an assumption in there where you said, whenever you believe, you immediately receive that life. That's where we would disagree. So we agree. Jesus goes around saying, you got to believe. The apostles go around saying, you got to believe. But then the question is going to become, what does that belief involve? And that's where further instruction would be given to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins. As St. Peter says on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38. Sorry we ran out of time, my friend.

[A]

I don't know. I can't remember if you said you have it already, but if you don't have Carlo's book, Baptism now saves you. I'd be happy to send it to you. Thomas, all you got to do is just hang on the phone and give us an address. You'll top down today. Siobhan is taking the calls for us today because Edgar's out. Give her an address. We'll send you. Baptism now saves how water and spirit give eternal life. Dr. Carla Broussard is our guest. We will continue with why Aren't you Catholic? On Catholic Answers Live right after this.