#12474 Why Is Missing Mass a Mortal Sin? – Why Aren’t You Catholic? - Karlo Broussard

Summary

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Catholic Answers Live

Episode #12474: Why Is Missing Mass a Mortal Sin? / Why Aren’t You Catholic?
Host: Cy Kellett
Guest Apologist: Dr. Karlo Broussard
Date: November 26, 2025

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Episode Overview

This engaging episode of Catholic Answers Live centers around two themes: the theological rationale behind why missing Sunday Mass is considered a mortal sin in the Catholic Church, and open-phone discussions with non-Catholic (or not-yet-Catholic) listeners who share their reasons for not being Catholic. Apologist Dr. Karlo Broussard takes live calls, offering both apologetics and pastoral counsel. The episode is marked by lighthearted Thanksgiving banter, in-depth catechetical explanations, and heartfelt, sometimes emotional conversations about faith, marriage, and salvation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Thanksgiving Banter & Community Warmth (00:00–05:00)

• The episode opens with lighthearted discussion about Thanksgiving food: turkey skepticism, cranberry sauce preferences, and how to pronounce “pecan.”
• Emphasizes the familial, accessible tone of the show—a mix of humor, cultural references, and faith.

2. Caller: Jonathan – Why Is Missing Mass a Mortal Sin? (07:00–11:56)

• Question: Why does the Catholic Church consider intentionally missing Sunday Mass a mortal sin, especially when daily Mass is available and “day of rest” could fall on any day?
• Dr. Broussard’s Explanation:
  • The Church has juridical authority (cf. Matthew 16:19, 18:18) given by Christ to bind or loose obligations.
  • To deliberately skip Sunday Mass rejects the authority of the Church, which is ultimately rejecting Christ’s authority.
  • Quotes Luke 10:16 (“Whoever rejects you rejects me…”)
  • Grave offense is present, qualifying as “serious matter”; mortal sin also requires full knowledge and deliberate consent.
  • “To deliberately say no to going to Mass on Sunday, you are making a choice to reject the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. And that’s a pretty grave situation.” – Dr. Broussard (13:08)
• Notable Quote:
  • “When an individual makes a positive act of the will to say no to following the precept of the Church…that individual is just rejecting implicitly and even sometimes explicitly the very authority of Holy Mother Church to bind us in this way…It’s a rejection that involves Christ.” – Dr. Karlo Broussard (07:30)
• Catechism Reference: CCC 2181, 2182
  • “Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin…The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice.” – Dr. Broussard (13:51)

3. Caller: Mustafa – Can Non-Christians Be Saved? Why Is Christianity Still Necessary? (19:38–24:50)

• Question: Can someone ignorant of the Gospel be saved? If so, what makes Christianity necessary?
• Dr. Broussard’s Explanation:
  • Yes, someone who has not heard the Gospel (through no fault of their own), yet sincerely seeks truth/goodness and lives according to their conscience, can be saved.
  • Salvation is still by Jesus Christ—“only through Jesus can we have access to the Father” (cf. John 14:6).
  • Those outside visible Christian communities may still receive Christ’s grace and be united to Him “mystically, invisibly.”
  • (“That individual is being saved by Jesus, but being saved outside the visible community of Christianity…") – Dr. Broussard (22:30)
• Resources Offered:
  • Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 848 and following.
  • Catholic.com keyword: “no salvation outside the Church.”
• Notable Quote:
  • “Why is Christianity necessary? Because there is no access to the Father without the Son of God made flesh, Jesus Christ.” – Dr. Karlo Broussard (20:19)

4. Caller: Sue – Journey Toward Catholicism, Spousal Fears & Church Unity (28:57–38:17)

• Situation: Evangelical fundamentalist, married to a devout Christian husband, feels drawn to convert to Catholicism after study and prayer. Their son’s suicide intensified her husband’s reluctance for further change.
• Concern: Fears “betraying” her husband and disrupting their shared ministry and family unity.
• Dr. Broussard’s Pastoral Advice:
  • Affirm Christ comes first: “Only in our love for Jesus will we be able to authentically love each other the way Christ wants us to.” (30:35)
  • Share your journey and heart first—focus the conversation on love for Jesus and the conviction that He founded the Catholic Church.
  • Becoming Catholic need not mean abandoning your shared ministries or participation in your husband’s faith journey.
  • If their evangelical community would reject her due to Catholicism, raise the question: “Why would they be exclusive of someone who loves Jesus?”
  • Encourages her not to presume her husband’s response—“You won’t know until you share your heart with him.”
• Notable Moments:
  • “My suggestion is, you won’t know until you try…don’t presume that he will not accept the movements of the Spirit in your heart.” – Dr. Broussard (35:55)
  • Moving, emotional exchange where the team offers prayers for Sue and her husband (37:42–38:17).

5. Caller: Mark – OCIA, Mixed Marriage & Sacramental Practicalities (42:56–46:47)

• Situation: Mark is in OCIA; his wife is a cradle Catholic from Nicaragua but lacks documentation of baptism, which complicates “sanctifying” (convalidating) their marriage.
• Dr. Broussard’s Practical Solution:
  • If no baptismal record exists, the church can perform a conditional baptism: “If you are not already baptized, I baptize you…”
  • This allows proper sacramental marriage without doubt or irregularity.

6. Caller: Eric – Does Changing Catholic Morality Prove It’s Not Divine? (49:26–54:57)

• Objection: Church’s moral standards evolve with culture (Jewish relations, death penalty, etc.), undermining divine authority—doesn’t this make Catholicism just another man-made religion?
• Dr. Broussard’s Response:
  • Even if popes/Church leaders err or change non-infallible teachings, it does not negate Christ’s founding of the Church—the guarantee is only on essential faith and morals.
  • Church never imputed collective guilt to all Jews for deicide.
  • Death penalty: Church’s teaching on its permissibility has not changed fundamentally, but disciplinary application can adapt based on times/cultures.
  • Overall, past misjudgments or policy changes do not disprove divine institution.
• Notable Quote:
  • “We don’t believe the leader of our church is going to be free from error in everything that he says…That wouldn’t undermine the Catholic Church being established by Jesus because Jesus makes only certain promises…” – Dr. Karlo Broussard (51:32–54:37)

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “To deliberately say no to going to Mass on Sunday…is to reject the very authority of Christ.” – Dr. Karlo Broussard (07:30)
• “The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice.” – Dr. Karlo Broussard quoting CCC (13:08)
• “Why is Christianity necessary? Because there is no access to the Father without the Son of God made flesh, Jesus Christ.” – Dr. Karlo Broussard (20:19)
• “You won’t know until you try…Don’t presume that he will not accept the movements of the Spirit in your heart.” – Dr. Karlo Broussard (35:55)
• “We don’t believe that the leader of our church is going to be free from error in everything that he says…That wouldn’t undermine the Catholic Church being established by Jesus…” – Dr. Karlo Broussard (51:32)

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Additional Memorable Moments

• Thanksgiving humor about turkey’s virtues (or lack thereof) and the eternal debate over “pecan” vs. “pecan” (00:00–05:00, 13:33–19:20).
• Chris Check drops by mid-episode to praise the charity and pastoral sensitivity of the apologists and to recount a moving prior call (16:15–18:07).
• Occasional technical difficulties and humorous confusion with phone lines, maintaining a welcoming, self-effacing tone.

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:00–05:00] Thanksgiving banter; team introductions
• [07:00–11:56] "Why is missing Mass a mortal sin?" – Jonathan
• [13:33–19:20] Flavorful discussion about food and Church family
• [19:38–24:50] "Can a non-Christian be saved?" – Mustafa
• [28:57–38:17] Pastoral advice for a spouse considering Catholicism – Sue
• [42:56–46:47] Mixed marriage, baptism records, OCIA – Mark
• [49:26–54:57] “Does changing Church morality prove it’s not divine?” – Eric

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

The episode alternates between lighthearted warmth (often around the Thanksgiving theme) and earnest, empathetic engagement with deep spiritual, theological, and practical struggles. Dr. Karlo Broussard exemplifies both rigorous apologetics and gentle pastoral care, offering clear explanations, Church references, and above all, encouragement for callers at all stages of faith.

Listeners leave with a richer understanding of:

• The Church’s theology of Sunday Mass obligation
• The doctrine on salvation for non-Christians
• How Catholicism regards unity of faith and marriage
• How to navigate Church discipline in contemporary family and faith life
• The limits of Church authority and the meaning of authentic doctrinal development

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For further resources, Karlo repeatedly recommends the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) and articles at Catholic.com.

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Transcript

[Cy Kellett]

Buying or selling your home. Real Estate for Life can connect you with a pro life real estate agent. When Real Estate for Life receives a referral fee, they donate 65% to Catholic Answers. Learn more at realestateforlife.org. Welcome back. Catholic Answers Live. Cy Kellett here with you. Mostly here with you. Partly just dreaming of turkey and stuffing, but mostly here. I would say I'm a good 63% here today. Tomorrow I will be here in body only. My spirit will be with the stuffing and the mashed potatoes and the gravy. Notice I'm not mentioning the turkey. I don't really believe in turkey. It doesn't seem like real food to me. I don't know what is in that bird, but it just doesn't, it seems. I have had people cook a turkey really well, but I must say, it's rare. And Carlos says his wife makes a good turkey. And good for you. Yes, you lucked out. You won the lottery.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Amen.

[Cy Kellett]

It's not easy to make a turkey taste good. The best way to make a turkey taste good is to bury it under cranberry sauce and stuffing.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

If you like cranberry sauce.

[Cy Kellett]

You don't like cranberry sauce?

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Not really, no.

[Cy Kellett]

Not too much. Not a big Cajun food, Cranberries. It's more of a New England thing.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah. I will say that mom and dad, they're going to be doing some cooking as well. And they're probably listening right now. So a shout out to them. They're going to have a house full with my other two sisters and my sister's extended family. And so I will be missing some good old mama cook in there. I will be missing that. But my wife, she does, like I said, she does a pretty darn good job. So although I miss Mama's cooking, I'm still satisfied and delighting in the great food that my wife is able to cook for us.

[Cy Kellett]

All right. Do you get. Does your wife make those little onions that come in the jar? You know the one I'm talking about, the tiny little pearl onions?

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

No, no, apparently not, because that might.

[Cy Kellett]

Be a New England thing, too. I don't know. I was like, those little. I could eat them all. I just eat the whole thing. Do you know what I'm talking about, Jeff? Do you know what a pearl onion is?

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Cy Kellett]

Like the martini onions, right? I didn't know we were gonna bring alcohol into it. Like, we're trying to do a family show here, man. I don't know what you're talking about. Martini onion. No, I don't know about that.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

But now and during the break, you asked me about pecan pie, or as you said it, pecan pie. We don't say it like that. We just say pecan pie, man.

[Cy Kellett]

I honestly don't have a pronunciation for it. I. Every time I have to say that word, I'm like, I'm just gonna throw something out there and see if it works.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

That's like niche or. Niche, right?

[Cy Kellett]

Yeah, right. Or try pronouncing any word around Chris. Check, and you'll be nervous about it.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

But. But you know what's interesting about pecan pie? Like, I love pecan pie, but without the pecans. So I love the peanut.

[Cy Kellett]

Try pecans. They're better. They're delicious.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

I. I love the filling and the crust. I could eat that all day long, man, just without the pecans. I love apple pie just without the apples. I could eat that.

[Cy Kellett]

No, that's not even a thing.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

That's all day, man.

[Cy Kellett]

Talking about, I love apple pie without the apples.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

I like carrot cake, but not with those crunchy carrots in there.

[Cy Kellett]

Do you know. Have you ever heard of the difference between essentials and accidents? I don't know if you've ever studied philosophy at all, but apples are essential to the apple pie. Those are not accidental to the apple pie.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Okay, so I like that. Which is close to an apple pie, but not, in essence, an apple pie.

[Chris Check]

Yeah.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

All right.

[Cy Kellett]

This is my contribution. I will tell you, and then I would like to hear your contribution to the. I know you don't do any cooking. My contribution. I whip the whipped cream. None of this whipped cream. No, no, no. I whip the whipped cream.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Whipping. Whipped cream is good.

[Chris Check]

Oh, absolutely good.

[Cy Kellett]

It's so good.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

And that does go well on that pumpkin pie from Costco, I must say.

[Cy Kellett]

Don't look at the calories, though. Do not look at the calories. Like you. You look like it's this little thing called whipping cream, Right? And you. It's.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

And you.

[Cy Kellett]

It says 1 million calories in this tiny little bucket. It's crazy how many calories. It's. It's one.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Sure is good going down.

[Cy Kellett]

Yeah, it is. Well, okay. So, Jeff, what do you. What do you make? What do you.

[Chris Check]

What do you.

[Cy Kellett]

What's your contribution? I do the bird and I'll do the turkey. And mashed potatoes and gravy with the bird and the turkey are the same thing. Oh, sorry. The bird and the gravy. The turkey and the gravy. I do the bird and the turkey wow. How many martinis do you have before you do the bird and the turkey? And Carlo does nothing. Carlo does the dishes. Do you even do the dishes? Do you do anything?

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

I do the dishes.

[Announcer]

Indeed.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

I do dishes that I can do.

[Cy Kellett]

The number here is 888-318-7884. There's two lines open, and they are open for people who are not Catholic. Jeff's a Catholic. Carlo's a Catholic. Siobhan's a Catholic. Luke's over there doing the video. He's a Catholic. I'm a Catholic. So you're calling a Catholic show a Catholic people. But we want to talk to non Catholics today. If you'd be gracious enough to call and tell us why you're not a Catholic, we would love to have that conversation with you. 8883-187884-88318-7884. All right, let's go to St. Louis, Missouri. Jonathan is not Catholic in St. Louis, Missouri. My image is that everyone in St. Louis is Catholic. Maybe I'm not fully understanding the city of St. Louis, but. Jonathan, welcome. Why aren't you Catholic? Oh, sorry, Hang on. Jonathan, I pushed the wrong button. Jonathan, why aren't you Catholic?

[Jonathan (Caller)]

Good evening. Thanks for having me. First off, let me agree on the turkey piece. I've never had a ham that made me wish I was eating a turkey.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

That's it. That's it. You completely agree.

[Cy Kellett]

Oh, that's gonna be the title of my next book right there. I'm gonna steal that. That's it. Thank you. I don't even remember what you said, but it was worded perfectly exactly right. We're all lying to ourselves about Turkey.

[Jonathan (Caller)]

We are. Yeah. So let me start off with the St. Louis non Catholic backstory. So I'm originally from Arkansas, so not a lot of Catholic footprint there. I was raised atheist, and then I'm a transplant here. Obviously a lot of Catholic influence here, history here. But I'm actually in ocia, so maybe I'm cheating by calling, but I'm in the very early.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

No, not at all, friend. We want OCIA people to give us a call today. Absolutely.

[Cy Kellett]

So carry on. Even though were you to die today, you would be counted among us. You are one of us as long as you're. But you are. Yeah. You're a perfect caller for us. Thank you.

[Mustafa (Caller)]

Good.

[Jonathan (Caller)]

You're just saying that because I said the thing about the ham. But that's okay.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah.

[Cy Kellett]

We need more people like you.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah.

[Jonathan (Caller)]

So my question is about mortal sin, and you Know, here a lot of the influence is either jaded, like cradle Catholics, or it's people that are like myself, they're like converting as an adult. So mortal sin, help me understand about not attending Mass. And if it's about it being the day of rest and Sunday, then why do we have Mass every day? And why is Sunday the most important day? And why is that considered a moral sin? So that's my question.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah, great question, Jonathan. So I think ultimately the answer to the question is that when an individual makes a positive act of the will to say no to following the precept of the Church, which is an obligation to go to Mass on that particular day of Sunday, bottom line is that the individual is just rejecting implicitly and even sometimes explicitly the very authority of Holy Mother Church to bind us in this way. And to reject that legitimate authority of Holy Mother Church to bind us in this way as to what day, which day to worship God on, is to reject the very authority of Christ. Because Christ is the one who told the apostles Peter by himself in Matthew 16:19, and then all the apostles in Matthew 18:18, whatever you bind and loose on earth is bound and loosed in heaven. With that terminology it has baked in speaking of thanksgiving within it, the idea of juridical authority or judicial authority, the authority to make certain precepts to to govern the life of the people of God and bind them to it. And so for someone to make a positive act of the will to reject that authority, which is wrapped up in and involved in the choice to not go to mass on Sunday intentionally, is in turn a rejection of Jesus Christ. And so the principle is found when our Lord tells the apostles, whoever rejects you rejects me, right in Luke 10:16. And he who rejects me rejects the Father who sent me. So insofar as somebody intentionally rejects me, rejects the judicial authority of the Church to bind us in this way, it's a rejection that involves Christ. It's a choice that involves the rejection of Christ and the authority that he invests within the Church. This is why, Jonathan, it is grave matter, a serious offense, to intentionally mismass on Sunday. Now, whether that grave offense brings about or has the effect of a mortal sin like destroying charity and sanctifying grace within the soul, that's going to be dependent on whether the individual had full knowledge and deliberate consent. So we have to be very careful when we use the language of mortal sin. If by mortal sin you're wondering whether this is a grave, serious offense, answer yes, and I gave you the reasons why. If by mortal sin. You mean, will this grave, serious offense have a spiritual mortal effect in the soul to destroy charity in the heart? Well, that's going to depend on whether the individual has full knowledge and deliberate consent in committing the grave offense. But I'm assuming here in our discussion that you mean, first of all, you're assuming that somebody is having full knowledge, deliberate consent, committing the grave offense, and then thereby meriting a cessation of charity within the soul. But as to the reason why, it's grave, as I said, the rejection of the legit judicial authority of the Church to bind us in this way entails a rejection of Christ who invested that authority in the Church. What do you think of that, my friends? That helpful?

[Jonathan (Caller)]

Yeah, very helpful. Thank you. That's a great response.

[Cy Kellett]

All right.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

And you know, I wanted to say this as well, sigh like there is also a layer and an element of the individual not choosing to worship God. Like often, not in every case, but often it is the case where the person is just not acknowledging the moral necessity to worship God and furthermore to worship God in the way that he wants, namely in the holy sacrifice of the Mass. Now, somebody could counter that and say, well, maybe it's not that. Maybe they're just kind of lazy that day, but they're going to worship God the next day. And then that's where my initial answer comes into play with regard to disobedience to the Church.

[Cy Kellett]

Jonathan, thank you for the call. We will take a quick break and we'll be right back with more why aren't you Catholic? With Dr. Carla Broussard, the number 888-318-7884. Your questions Catholic answers live. St. Carlo Acutis shared a dream in which Sister Lucia appeared to him, saying the First Saturday devotion could change the destiny of the world. The Blue army of Our lady of Fatima invites you to practice this Devotion. Join a First Saturday virtual pilgrimage beginning December 6th. Experience spiritual meditations while traveling virtually through Portugal and Spain to to 12 sacred sites tied to the Fatima story. Track your journey with a passport and stamps. Visit bluearmy.com and select First Saturday Pilgrimage to learn more. Sponsored by our Ladies Blue Army Underwriting for Catholic Answers Live is provided by.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Real Estate for Life.

[Cy Kellett]

Real Estate for Life connects home buyers and sellers to real estate agents while supporting pro life organizations on the Web at Realestate for Life.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

The most original Catholic content is on EWTN Radio. I read a sentence one time on a retreat and it said, you are.

[Chris Check]

What your thoughts are. See, our whole being is created by God, for God.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

And if I don't use everything that I am for that purpose, then it's going to show.

[Announcer]

Mother Angelica live classics tonight, 8 Eastern on EWTN television and radio.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Welcome back.

[Cy Kellett]

CATHOLIC ANSWERS Live. Carla, you wanted to give a citation to the catechism for that last question.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah. For Jonathan. With regard to missing Mass on Sundays and it being a mortal sin, the catechism deals with this in paragraphs 21, 8, 81 and following. And it states that those who deliberately fail in this obligation to attend Mass on Sunday commit a grave sin. And one of the reasons it gives is it states prior to that that the Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. So if you think about it s to deliberately say no to going to Mass on Sunday, you are making a choice to reject the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. And that's a pretty grave situation.

[Announcer]

Right.

[Cy Kellett]

But if you're sick, stay home.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Exactly. We're assuming here, no mitigating factors, etc. Yeah, I should have mentioned that. That's an important qualification.

[Cy Kellett]

Chris Check just stepped in, president of finances and he's here to support me. I'm so happy he's here to support me.

[Chris Check]

I just wanted to say sigh. I was coming back to the office and I caught the beginning of the second hour here. And you are absolutely right about turkey.

[Cy Kellett]

That's right.

[Chris Check]

I don't know what this is going to do to our fundraising here at Catholic Answers. I hope I'm not alarming people, but you're right. The only way to get it inside your body is to cover it with stuff.

[Cy Kellett]

Yeah. You got to slide. Or unless maybe Jacqueline cooks, I guess she's really good at cooking turkey.

[Chris Check]

I've heard that. But did you also brining helps.

[Cy Kellett]

I tried to brine a turkey one time and it was disgusting what I did. I don't know how you're supposed to do it, but whatever I did was not.

[Chris Check]

Brining helps.

[Cy Kellett]

Yeah, but I heard that brining poultry is that you're supposed to brine.

[Chris Check]

It does. It helps retain some of that moisture.

[Cy Kellett]

Can I say something else about Dr. Carlo Broussard?

[Chris Check]

I do want to say something about Dr. Carlo. Yeah. You were away last week.

[Cy Kellett]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Check]

And Jackie got a hip a week ago today. She has a brand new hip, so.

[Cy Kellett]

Well, she got one, but she also gave one up.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Well, she gave.

[Cy Kellett]

She's got the. She doesn't have three now.

[Chris Check]

Was not working as well. Yeah. But anyway, so I've been a little distracted with. With helping out My. My lovely wife.

[Cy Kellett]

Bless you.

[Chris Check]

Who's. Who's an invalid right now. The good kind. And. But. But I'm coming back from the hospital. I think it was Wednesday.

[Cy Kellett]

Yeah.

[Chris Check]

Or no, must have been last Tuesday. I think it was. It was Tuesday. And what's his name? Thomas. Thomas the TikTok.

[Cy Kellett]

Thomas Tick tock.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Right.

[Chris Check]

He was the guy that wears the beanie who works for us.

[Cy Kellett]

Well, I know who Thomas is.

[Announcer]

Yes.

[Chris Check]

The guy who wears his hat indoors.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah.

[Chris Check]

So Thomas is the host. And these are my favorite kinds of calls, because we get calls of people asking questions. And the apologists do great. Explain the doctrine, and here's the scripture and here's what the Father said, and here's philosophically what makes sense. But my favorite calls are, Carlo, you remember this? I know a fellow called. I remember where he was from. And he said, I've been a lifelong Catholic and I'll defend the church up one side, down the other. And then you can tell he's in pain. And he says, I no longer believe in the efficacy of the sacrament.

[Cy Kellett]

Well, that's a stunner, Carlo.

[Chris Check]

I mean, I was. When you hear that, that's a terrifying thing.

[Cy Kellett]

Yeah. What do you say to that, Carlo?

[Chris Check]

My friends, I encourage you to go back to last Tuesday show and listen to Carlo take care of this soul. It's so beautiful. It's so beautiful.

[Cy Kellett]

Carlos.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah. He was struggling. I remember him vividly. He was in tears. On the airplane.

[Cy Kellett]

He was.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

We gotta pray for him.

[Chris Check]

Yeah, we do. We do. But Carlo, Carlo set him back on the right path. And if you're listening now, my friend, please call anytime. But when I think about Catholic answers Live, like I say, it's a lot of fun and it's very engaging to hear. When we get an involved theological question or something like that, and these apologists manage it with so much skill. But those broken souls and those people really longing for some spiritual consolation, and we're able to help. Those are the calls I most give thanks for.

[Cy Kellett]

Yeah. That we have people like Carlo to answer them.

[Chris Check]

And it shows. These guys, they're not just technicians. They are real human persons who love Jesus. And that's where the work starts in the interior life.

[Cy Kellett]

One thing I've noticed with Jimmy, for example, if he sees one of those questions, he'll go, move that up to the top. I don't want that person in.

[Chris Check]

It's true. I remember being on it. A call or a show. Good number of years ago, I was hosting and there was a homeless person from Los Angeles who called? Jimmy's walking him through his challenges.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah.

[Cy Kellett]

Did you hear the part of the show where I said I don't know how to pronounce pecan or pe? Can or pecan?

[Chris Check]

It depends what part of the country you live in. Carlo points.

[Cy Kellett]

I knew you would know the answer.

[Chris Check]

Does Carlo say pecan?

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

No, man, in Lafayette, we never said that. We always just said pecan.

[Chris Check]

Pecan.

[Cy Kellett]

Pecan.

[Chris Check]

So you have to be in Texas to say pecan.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

I guess I really don't know what region it's coming from.

[Cy Kellett]

Pecan. Pecan. There's another one. There's a third one, but. All right, so I had a friend.

[Chris Check]

In college who had a pecan tree.

[Cy Kellett]

In her backyard, and she said pecan.

[Chris Check]

I don't remember.

[Cy Kellett]

All right, well, how do you say it? You say.

[Chris Check]

I say pecan. Yeah, I say pecan.

[Cy Kellett]

Do you say potato or potato? See, I don't believe that song.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

No, but that song is.

[Cy Kellett]

No, but who says potaho? Nobody says potahto. That's a fake song.

[Chris Check]

Nobody says to fake news.

[Cy Kellett]

Fake news.

[Chris Check]

Some people say tomano, Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. Right?

[Cy Kellett]

They say potato.

[Chris Check]

No, that's what. That's the song. All right. Yeah.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

All right.

[Chris Check]

You guys are doing great work.

[Cy Kellett]

Well, let's. We'll some more non Catholics then.

[Chris Check]

I'm thankful for both of you. All right.

[Cy Kellett]

Thank God Jackie's doing well.

[Chris Check]

Yeah, thank you.

[Cy Kellett]

All right, Mustafa in Pennsylvania, watching on YouTube. Mustafa, welcome. Why aren't you Catholic?

[Mustafa (Caller)]

I am not Catholic because I am from another religion. I'm born in another religion. I'm from a Muslim family, a Sunni family, of course.

[Cy Kellett]

Okay.

[Mustafa (Caller)]

And I have been studying Christianity for, like, years, and I've been talking to, like, a lot of Christians on the Internet about the topic of the Christian faith.

[Cy Kellett]

Okay, well, we're glad to have you here.

[Mustafa (Caller)]

Simple. Thank you so much. And you know, I talk to the priests, the bishops, some of the bishops from other. Other churches. So I have, like, a question. Can a person who never hears the gospel be saved? As in, and if so, what makes Christianity necessary? I hope for clarification.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah. Two excellent questions, Mustafa. First of all, let me just comment on your voice. That is a very cool, slick voice you got going on. And then now to your first question. Is it possible for such a person to be saved? The answer is yes to your second question. Why is Christianity necessary? Because there is no access to the Father without the son of God made flesh. Jesus Christ. Now, those are short answers. Let me do my best. Ustafa. To unpack it a little bit here. So we given the revelation of Jesus and who he is as the God man, assuming that is the case, and we have historical verification of that and reason to believe that he is who he says he is as the God man, he teaches us that no one has access to the Father. This is in John chapter 14, verse 6. Except through him, like only he can allow somebody, give somebody the power to be able to enter into the perfect union of friendship with God the Father Himself, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Okay, now, insofar as we say it's possible for someone to be saved when they've never heard of Jesus, the question arises, well, why is that so? And how do we explain that? Well, here's the answer, Ustafa for somebody who's. Let's assume that the person who's never heard of Jesus, that they're not responsible for their lack of knowledge about what Jesus has taught and what he has revealed. And let's further assume that this individual is seeking the truth honestly in the ways that he knows how and is actually living in accord with with whatever truths he comes to know and doing his best to try and live in accord with the order of good that he comes to know inscribed within his human nature. We call that the natural moral law. If that individual has such a fundamental orientation towards truth and goodness and beauty, and he's not responsible for his lack of knowledge concerning Jesus, then he is disposed in a way to receive from Jesus the power that is needed for that individual to be quote unquote saved and enter into what we call heaven. Now notice in that articulation, Mustafa, that quote unquote non Christian, at least visibly non Christian, is not being saved by some other person or some other thing. Rather, that individual is being saved by Jesus, but being saved outside the visible community of Christianity precisely because that individual receives this power from Jesus. We call that grace which at least unites the individual to Jesus in a mystical, invisible way, such that his inner friendship with Christ with that grace that Jesus is going to give him, is that in virtue of which he can spend the rest of his existence with Jesus the Father and the Holy Spirit in what we call heaven. So why is Christianity necessary? It is necessary because only through Jesus we have access to the Father, but that Jesus can give his grace of salvation to people who are not responsible for their lack of visible unity with the Christian community, who are not responsible for their lack of knowledge about Jesus and what he has come to teach us. So this is why we can affirm those two truths. Yes, Jesus is necessary to enter heaven. And at the same time, it is possible for someone who's not a Christian to be saved with those certain assumptions in place. Any thoughts in response? Gustava?

[Mustafa (Caller)]

First of all, the answer to the question is very helpful. So it was an honor that I contacted this program and this is my first time contacting. And by the way, I've been trying for like a long time, but I'm very, very, very happy that I took the chance. And God willing, if I have more questions, I will participate with you the next episode. So thank you very much for the answer. It's very beneficial and very helpful than.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

All right, you're welcome, my friend. Thank you for calling and trusting us. And so here's something you might want to check out. So there's this. I don't know if you know what this is or not, but we have sort of a doctrinal manual book as Catholics called the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You can access it for free online. If you type in and search Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 848, you can you can read paragraphs 848 and following and the Catechism you stafa gives a nice summary or a synopsis of everything that I just articulated for you here on the air and then goes a little bit further beyond what I shared with you. So I would recommend you read that part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and then also visit our [e-mail] and you can type in the search engine no salvation outside the Church. And then you're going to get a plethora of resources where you can further your research in video format, audio format and written format. So thanks again, Yustafa. God bless you, my friend, and thank you.

[Cy Kellett]

I hope we do get to speak with you again. Sorry you had difficulty getting through to us. Carlo is very popular. It's hard to get on when Carlo's here. But look at that, two lines are open. So 888-318-7884. We'll continue asking callers, why aren't you Catholic? When we come back on Catholic Answers live.

[Announcer]

Why do Catholics pray to dead people, bow to statues, venerate relics? And where do we find any of this stuff in the Bible? In the delightful book the Saints pray for your, Dr. Carlo Broussard convincingly defends the ancient Christian belief rooted in scripture, that the saints care for us, that they are allies. Order your copy of the Saints Pray for you [e-mail] or ask for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you.

[Cy Kellett]

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[Announcer]

When the resurrected Jesus appeared to disciples on the road to Emmaus. They didn't recognize him until the breaking of the bread. The same is true today. In the Holy Eucharist we really meet Jesus in the Eucharist is really Jesus. Author Joe Heschmeyer explains how knowing Jesus in the Eucharist is the key to understanding all of Christian faith. Order your copy of the Eucharist is Really Jesus today@shop catholic.com or get it at a good Catholic bookstore near you. Throughout history, some Catholics have been among the worst kind of villains, right? Or were they in Cancelled? Historian Steve Weidenkopf digs into the lives and controversies of some of these Catholics whose reputations have been blackened, often unfairly. He takes on the anti Catholic versions of history and defends not only these figures, but the faith they represent. Order your copy of cancelled [e-mail] or ask for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you.

[Cy Kellett]

Welcome back to CATHOLIC Answers live. I try to keep getting folks on with Carlo if you've got a question. No, actually, if you want to tell us why you're not Catholic, you can call 888-318-7884. There's three callers on. I'm definitely going to get to all the folks that are on here so there'll be room for more if you'd like to get in that list. 888-318-7884. Sue is in Michigan listening on our website. Glad to have you here, Sue. Go ahead with your question.

[Sue (Caller)]

Thank you for having me. I have been on a journey for quite some time. I'm a history buff, but I'm also an evangelical fundamentalist married to a husband who is absolutely love in love with Jesus like I am. And we've been on a spiritual journey for all of our married life for over 30 years. He will be devastated to learn that I have started studying again. And I say started again because he knew I was studying. He endorsed my joining a Lenten ladies group when we studied Santa Lisieux and it was a wonderful study. But when our son committed suicide three years ago, he begged me to stop studying. He said he couldn't handle another stress in his life. And so I feel like I'm betraying him and heading closer and closer to wanting to become Catholic. But then I think about Dr. Thomas Howard, the author of Evangelicals Not Enough. He was the very first gentleman ever on EWTN's Journey Home episode. And he. He was asked this hard question, too. And I'll never forget his quote. He said, even the scandal or offense of the cross does not give a dominical warrant from our Lord to rend or tear the sacramental fabric of the marriage covenant. So I feel so torn. I know I'm going to devastate my husband, and I know it's going to change his social life, it's going to change his church life, it's going to change our family ministry by me becoming Catholic. All of those things will need to grind to a halt. So I would be affecting not just myself, but him as well.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Sure. All right. So, sue, first of all, I'm sorry to hear about your son. My condolences to you and your husband, and prayers for the repose of the soul of your son. That is indeed a cross. And even the situation that you find yourself in is indeed a cross. And I sympathize with you. I feel the tension. My first thought in response, sue, and this thought is going to govern the sort of conversation, hopefully, that you can have with your husband, is love of Jesus comes first. And it is only when love of Christ is in its proper place can our love for others be properly ordered and authentic and real and healthy. Now we know that theologically Christ comes first, everything else comes second. Jesus himself teaches us this. He who loves mother or father more than me is not worthy of me. Christ comes first. But whenever you have this conversation with your husband, my suggestion to you is to try to present to him, to share with him your heart and your mind and say, look, I love Jesus. And given what you've told me already about the ministry that both you and your husband have participated in, he loves Jesus, too. He said he loves Christ. And so you can share with him that love and say, hey, look, I love Christ. And you agree with me that we should love Christ even above each other, and that only in our love for Jesus will we be able to authentically love each other the way Christ wants us to. Now in my journey, the conversation continues. I have come to the conclusion that Jesus started the Catholic Church and out of love for Christ. I want to belong to that church that he established. And so notice you're starting off by telling him your heart, your story. How is God moving in your heart? And what does the love of Christ imply for you? And that is belonging to the church he started. Now the question becomes, what are the implications of that love for Christ, for my family? And that's where the rubber hits the road, and that's where it gets difficult. And my suggestion to you, sue, is to assure your husband that although you have come to that conclusion that Jesus started the Catholic Church, you in no way are expecting your husband to see that right now, nor are you expecting him to accept that conclusion right now, because he just simply doesn't. And you can respect that in God's providence of why God's not allowing him to see what you're seeing. And then once you settle that and want you to share that thought with him, like, I'm not threatening you. I'm not demanding that you become Catholic right now, maybe perhaps that might quell some of the emotional negative responses. And then you can follow that up with saying, okay, well, look, honey, and even though I become Catholic, I can still participate in these Christian ministries that we've already been participating. Sue, keep in mind that by you becoming Catholic, that doesn't mean you have to stop participating in ministry for Jesus, that you have been within Protestant communities. There's nothing about being Catholic that forbids you to engage in Protestant ministry like ministry with Protestants, because they're fellow members of the mystical body of Christ. There are brothers and sisters, although separated, but nevertheless brothers and sisters. So whatever Christian ministry that you're participating in with your husband, you can still continue to do. Furthermore, sue, you can assure your husband that you. You could even participate with him in attending the Protestant services, assuming that if you become Catholic, you go to Catholic Mass, maybe early in the morning or the Saturday vigil, and then you share with them, hey, I can still attend with the family and the kids the Protestant service. Now, a little nuancing there. You're not going to be able to participate in their communion and stuff, but you can still be there to support him in his journey and walk with the Lord. And so these are the thoughts that are coming to mind right now. Sue, I recognize these are some troubled waters, but I think if you start off by sharing your heart, focusing on your love for Jesus, and then assuring him that the implications of that love, it's not going to undermine or negate or change many of the things that you already Share in Christ. And hopefully, sue, that message can soften his heart to where he can be acceptable of the movements of the Spirit within your heart for you to become Catholic.

[Sue (Caller)]

Thank you.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Now, I know that's easier said. Yeah, I know that's easier said than done. But my suggestion is you won't know until you try. Like, don't presume that he will not accept the movements of the Spirit in your heart. Don't presume that you won't know until you share your heart with him.

[Sue (Caller)]

I can say the ministries we are involved with because they are church endorsed. The church would never allow them to continue because there's enough of an anti Catholic sentiment that it would be an absolutely no deal. And yet I can see my husband still wanting to serve with me. And so we'll have to cross that road when it comes.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah. Now. Yeah. So if the community itself, they come to know you're a Catholic and it's no Catholics allowed. Well, sue, that would be unfortunate, first of all, but perhaps that would be a good opportunity for you to have a conversation with your husband and say, well, wait a minute, why is it that they're excluding me who loves Jesus? I thought they loved Jesus. And shouldn't we want to be together as lovers of Jesus? Like, isn't that what the Christian family is all about? And you can gently pose that to your, your husband and say, like, why is it that. Why would we even want to belong to a community that's going to exclude from serving the poor, say, or helping out at the parish at the communal festival or something at the little church festival, whatever the ministry may be, why would they be exclusive of somebody who loves Jesus? And if they are, do we really want to participate in that group? That's a good, honest question that you could ask from your heart.

[Sue (Caller)]

Yes, it would be. Yeah.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah.

[Sue (Caller)]

Those are great starting points for conversation that I have been dreading and putting off because of the pain we're still going through as a family. But I don't want to inflict more pain in his life. And it's going to be absolutely devastating. But it is time, so thank you.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah, sue. And I get it. And I'm sorry you're in that situation. I tell you what, we're going to offer up a prayer for you this evening, sue, that the Lord will soften the heart of your husband so that he can be receptive to what God is doing in your own heart.

[Sue (Caller)]

Thank you. I really appreciate that.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Okay, Sue.

[Cy Kellett]

Thanks, Sue. Call again if you'd like. Call again and we'll talk again. You've brought us right to the break, so I'm going to take the break. I do want to encourage folks we can still get one or two calls on. We've got Eric in Phoenix coming up. And then lines are open for you. 88831-87884. Why aren't you Catholic?

[Chris Check]

Hang on.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Catholic Answers Live will return in a.

[Cy Kellett]

Moment in Morse code. The sequence SOS is a distress call. It's been said that it stands for Save Our Souls. Well, right now our world is in big trouble and we're putting out an SOS call for help. Will you answer that call? St. Paul Street Evangelization, a Catholic nonprofit, has hundreds of teams who share the good news with souls who don't know Jesus. Catholic Answers is supported in part by St. Paul Street Evangelization. Visit streetevangelization.com to get involved.

[Announcer]

The Wisdom of Mother Angelica don't you.

[Chris Check]

Feel sometime like there's so many people in the world? How does he hear your prayer? Never think of that, huh?

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Everybody thinks it.

[Chris Check]

I'm only a little grain of sand on the seashore.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Oh, but that's not true.

[Chris Check]

See, God is God, and you and I have to let God be God. I don't know how he does it. He's God.

[Announcer]

For more information on Mother Angelica, visit Religious [e-mail].

[Cy Kellett]

Welcome back. Catholic Answers Live, 888-318-7884. Dr. Carlo Broussard, our guest. Why aren't you Catholic? Is our question for callers. If you're not a Catholic and you're willing to call, we'd be grateful for that conversation. I try not to bring my phone into the studio because it'll go off. I'm just not good at turning it off or knowing where I put it. But I see you checking a message there on your phone. What are you doing, Carlo, checking a message on your phone during the show?

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah, I got chastised by my daddy, man. He texted me and said, darn, son, you must have forgot about me frying turkey throughout the years.

[Cy Kellett]

So you're like, nah, yeah, I probably had seen a turkey. You didn't remember that your dad regularly fried a turkey.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Now that he says it, it jogged the memory. Listen, I have a horrible long term memory, man. My wife will tell you there are only bits and pieces that I remember long term. And so once he said it, it kind of jogged the mem, him frying turkeys and frying it, deep frying and stuff. So. Well, let me Ask you this, I have to repent of that. And here's a lesson. Sigh. You know, this is an important lesson, man. You never stop being a parent.

[Cy Kellett]

No.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

So even me at 43 year old.

[Cy Kellett]

I'm sorry, man. Yeah, that's right. Do you remember your father ever burning the house down? Because people have done that. Do you have any recollection of that?

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

No, he's, he's. I tell you what, as I said before, both mom and dad are heck of. They're, they're heck of good cooks. I had to catch myself there. I was about to say something else, but they are definitely good cooks. They can both cook, man. I'm telling you, they're just phenomenal.

[Cy Kellett]

Well, keep buttering them up. Your dad's mad at you, so they.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Better get ready because when we were actually going for a week, I have a mission to do down in the Latvia diocese for Advent at the Nativity of Our lady in New Iberia. And so we're going to be spending a week with mom and dad. So I'm looking forward to some of that good cooking.

[Cy Kellett]

All right, try to remember it when you come back.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

I will.

[Cy Kellett]

318-7884 is the number here. Let's go to Eric in Phoenix, Arizona. Eric, wait, wait. Am I going the right place? Eric, it says line four and I've only got a line five. Am I. Do we, do we have an Eric? Is there an Eric on the line right now? No, we don't. I got, I'm all confused. All right, I got to go to line one, then. You guys gonna help me out? Is anyone listening to me? Does anybody out here? We're doing a radio show. What are you guys doing in there? Are you exchanging cooking tips? I don't know what line to go to. I'm gonna go to line one. I'm gonna go to Mark in Niles, Ohio, listening on ewtn. Mark, are you a real person?

[Jonathan (Caller)]

Yes.

[Cy Kellett]

Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad. Someone who will talk to me. Why aren't you Catholic, Mark?

[Mark (Caller)]

Well, I'm in OCIA right now, actually.

[Cy Kellett]

Congratulations.

[Mark (Caller)]

Thanks to you guys and, wow, praise God, Mike. And actually, my, my first OCIA class was the night that you had Father Mike on. And I called in after my class, but he was already gone, so.

[Cy Kellett]

Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, that's what we, that's that we really were a big deal that day. You, you, you know, when you get Father Mike on, you're a big deal. So sorry you missed him.

[Mark (Caller)]

Well, he was Already gone, so. But yeah, thanks to you guys for that. Like, you guys are a big part of why I'm becoming Catholic. But I wanted to actually throw back on the. A couple callers ago when she said that she's becoming Catholic and her husband's Protestant. I'm having a little trouble right now because my wife's Catholic, but we were actually having trouble tracking down her baptism record. And how would. How would she become Catholic without her husband becoming Catholic?

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Okay, so there seems to be two parts of that question. Let me just latch on to the second part of that question. How could someone become Catholic when the spouse is not Catholic? Well, because the church allows it. Like, there's nothing about having a non Catholic spouse that would impede you, a non Catholic, from becoming Catholic. As I said in the previous call, Jesus is the truth. He's first and foremost. Everything else is secondary and must be ordered toward our relationship with Jesus. So that's what matters most. So the Catholic Church, following what Jesus teaches us about himself being the way, the truth and the life, and before all things, the Catholic Church says, hey, you want to join the church that Jesus established, even if your spouse is not a Catholic, then we will receive you. Now, with regard to, as I put it, your wife, as you said, your wife is Catholic but having trouble tracking down her baptism. Am I assuming correctly that she needs her baptismal certificate because she's seeking confirmation in oci? Is that true, or am I missing something here?

[Mark (Caller)]

Well, no, I. I'm in ocia.

[Jonathan (Caller)]

She's.

[Mark (Caller)]

She's a cradle Catholic, but she's in Nicaragua. And that's actually why we're having trouble with the. The baptismal records.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Okay. All right.

[Mark (Caller)]

Well, we were gonna sanctify the marriage, you know.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Oh, I get it. Got it.

[Mark (Caller)]

You know, before. Before I would be baptized.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Okay, I understand now. Okay, so here's one easy solution. So the current church that's involved with bringing you guys together in the sacrament of holy matrimony, et cetera. So if they're uncertain as to whether your wife was baptized, really what they can do is just simple. A simple conditional baptism mark, which is basically, if you're not already baptized, I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit. And then they would know for sure from that point forward that she is validly baptized. And so by you becoming baptized and professing your vows, that would become, as you put it, sanctifying the marriage, that would become a sacramental marriage because y' all would both be baptized. So that's one possible route. Like if they come to the point to where they say, you know what, we just don't have any evidence, then they just do a conditional baptism. So there's no problem there. Great.

[Mark (Caller)]

Thank you very much.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Yeah. And you might talk to your pastor about that, man.

[Mark (Caller)]

Okay, great.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Thank you.

[Cy Kellett]

All right, I'll tell you what. If you'd like one of Carlo's books. Hang on. You can talk with Siobhan and don't be intimidated just because she's a big deal around here. Just give her an address and tell her which of Carlo's books that you'd like and we will send it. We'll send it to you there in Phoenix, Arizona. Thank you very much for the call. On we go, I think. Where am I going? I'm very confused with the numbering system today. I'm going to go to Lenny in Cleveland, Ohio. Is that what I'm supposed to do? All right, well, now I've said Lenny in Cleveland, Ohio. So how bad would it hurt Lenny's feelings if I didn't go to him? Try to make this quick though, Carlo, because I'm cheating somebody else. If I. Lenny in Cleveland. Welcome.

[Mark (Caller)]

Yes, I am here.

[Cy Kellett]

We're glad to have you.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

I have.

[Mark (Caller)]

I'm glad to be here to talking to you. This is encouraging words for Sue. Okay, I'm Catholic, been Catholic since I was born. But that's not the reason I'm calling. I'm calling. I hope that she can get in touch with Scott Hahn for Dr. David Anders now. David Anders is on 2:00pm Eastern, Eastern standard time, Monday through Friday. Okay, got Hahn. You could be reached at Franciscan University at Steubenville. Now they both are going through or went through the same thing suited. Yeah, both Protestant. They were both married and they both converted to become Catholic. And now they're, you know, they're. They're Catholic, a, you know, when it comes to apologetics. But they experiencing the same thing that she wants to possibly experience.

[Cy Kellett]

Well, you know what, Lenny? Actually, David Anders wrote a book called how the Catholic Church Saved My Marriage and that might actually. Oh, wow. Which is kind of a testimony to what happened there. Lenny, you gave them both an A. And I don't know how many of those A pluses you gave out, but I have to agree with both of those. Lenny, thank you for your help for Sue. I'm sure that that is helpful to Sue. Now I have someone on the line who I have because I kept messing up the phones. I'm taking the blame for this one. Don't you guys worry about it. I'm taking the hit out here. I kept messing up the phones. I got to get to Eric in Phoenix, Arizona listening on the radio. Hi Eric. Why aren't you Catholic?

[Eric (Caller)]

Hi Dr. Carlos, Eric here. A friend of mine asked me to call in form. He's. The issue is that the question is about not being Catholic. And I'm not seeing any evidence in the way that the Catholic Church is presenting itself to be divinely inspired and based and being led. Because your spirit, your morality shifts over time culturally. So that makes it not seem to be man made religion just like any other man made cultural religion is. And I'm not dismissing the value of religious ceremony, of the importance of that in culture. But I'm not seeing anything in special about your church that seems to be divinely inspired with your morality because you keep shifting it and redefining your morality based on the culture and the time period of the day just to maintain your geopolitical stability.

[Cy Kellett]

Can you give an example? I would be. I'm sorry, Carlo, that was going to.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Be my first question.

[Chris Check]

What did we.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

What.

[Cy Kellett]

What got changed morally?

[Eric (Caller)]

Well, a couple of examples would be Second Vatican Council you declared not to no longer to demonize the entire Jewish people of deicide. And secular courts cleared that 30 years before you guys even caught up to it. You guys, you claim to be against the death penalty, but historically we all know that you used to burn people at the stake just for heresy. And your Pope also doubled down on the fascist Muslim leadership the put out a death sentence for Salman Rushdie.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

Okay.

[Eric (Caller)]

And so all this stuff is just placating the times of the people. So you're. I don't see anything that's divinely inspired here in your morality because you're just being is no different than historically than any other man made religion. And I'm not denigrating religion. Religion is very important for ceremony. Of course it is. Yeah, but you're no different than than any other man made religion the way that you practice.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

All right, all right. Well those are many assertions that would require further conversation to go back and forth. Obviously my first thought is this, Eric. Let's just assume for argument's sake that the things that you listed were true and that, you know, current popes have been messing up on these things. Well, here's the thing, Eric, that would not undermine or nullify the Catholic Church being established by Jesus because we don't believe that the leader of our church is going to be free from error in everything that he says, and in every Church teaching that he officiates in, that's just not what we believe. We can allow for there to be error in some forms of teaching of our leader, the Pope, and even in regard to moralities, he could get some stuff wrong, but that wouldn't undermine the Catholic Church being established by Jesus because Jesus makes only certain promises that when it comes to the very identity of the Church and what must be believed to be a part of that Church, then it's going to be protected by the Holy Spirit. That's a thing we call infallibility. Of course, that requires further conversation as well. But I'm just saying here for argument's sake, the things that you listed when worked out and thought through, would not be evidence against the Catholic Church being, as you put it, divinely inspired in the sense of being divinely established by Jesus Christ, who we believe to be the God Man. Now, with regard to the examples, at least a few of them, that you gave with regard to Vatican II not demonizing the entire Jewish people of deicide, well, that presumes that before Vatican II the Church was doing that. Well, that's a contestable claim. We would argue that the Church did not do that. Did the Church pray for the Jewish people? Yes. Does the Church acknowledge the historical fact that there were some Jewish leaders who put Jesus to death? Yes. But the Church has not said that, never said that that particular sin of putting Jesus on the cross was imputed to the entire Jewish people, as you put it. And then secondly, with regard to the claim to be against the penalty, you're assuming that the Church is against the death penalty because it is intrinsically evil. But that's not the Church's teaching. Can the Church approve a particular form of punishment at in some periods of history and then in certain later periods of history, the Church now say we're not going to use that form of punishment for some other reason. Of course, I as a father used to punish my children when they were two years old in ways way different than I would punish them now at 15 and 18 years old, still living under my roof. So that can change. But the Church and her teaching about the death penalty being a legitimate form of punishment, that remains the same.

[Cy Kellett]

I wish we hadn't got more time, but I am glad that we got you on. Thank you very, very much for the call that you can hear. The music will do it for us. Dr. Carlo Broussard, enjoy your non fried turkey for Thanksgiving.

[Dr. Carlo Broussard]

I sure will, Si. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family and to everybody listening.

[Cy Kellett]

Thank you, Carlo. We're gonna do this again. As a matter of fact, we've got new shows for you all week. And we'll do this again tomorrow, God willing, right here on Catholic Answers.