Catholic Answers Live - Episode #12476

"What Makes Mormons Not Christian? Grace and Disagreement" – Joe Heschmeyer

Date: November 27, 2025
Host: Catholic Answers (Si)
Guest: Joe Heschmeyer

Overview

This episode of Catholic Answers Live centers around the challenging question of what makes certain groups, specifically Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, not Christian according to Catholic theology. Apologist Joe Heschmeyer joins to field listener questions on a wide array of topics: the liturgical dimensions of Scripture, Marian doctrines, and how to appropriately disagree with Church authority. Throughout, the tone is congenially academic with Thanksgiving humor and brotherly banter.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Lighthearted Opening & Thanksgiving Banter (00:30–14:00)

• Thanksgiving Spirit: The hosts joke about holiday moods and historical trivia, highlighting Thanksgiving's Catholic connections and lesser-known facts about early American colonies. Chris Check and Joe recount aspects of Catholic and Protestant history and their implications for the concept of "religious freedom."
• Historical Context: The discussion covers the role of various Catholic and Protestant communities in early North American history, touching on misconceptions around Thanksgiving, Squanto, and European settlers.
  • "It is a lie that the Pilgrims came here seeking religious freedom... They did not come here seeking religious freedom. They came here to have a place where they could kick everyone else out that disagreed." — Si (B) (05:34)
• Travel & Pilgrimage Promotions: There is talk about upcoming Catholic river cruises highlighting the Christianization of Europe, especially Germanic lands, and the spiritual heritage of places like Aachen, Cologne, and the Rhine Valley.

Call #1: Scripture & Liturgy Connections for Protestants (15:18–26:14)

Caller (Austin, Mobile, AL): How can he help his Baptist/Lutheran friend see the Mass in light of Scripture, especially Revelation?

Joe’s Answer:

• Book of Revelation as Liturgical: Hahn’s The Lamb’s Supper is recommended as a resource; the Book of Revelation is interpreted through a liturgical, not just prophetic, lens. (16:43)
• Early Christian Understanding: Church Fathers saw the four living creatures (Revelation 4:6-8) as symbols for the Gospels. Revelation is filled with references to Eucharist and liturgy—incense, "Holy Holy Holy,” menorah imagery, etc.
  • "Scott Hahn describes this experience of going to Mass after having studied the Book of Revelation and being just kind of dumbstruck at the number of references between Revelation and the structure of the Mass." — Joe (C) (18:02)
• Justin Martyr’s First Apology: Early writings (chapters 65-67) demonstrate early Christian worship looked like Mass, not a later invention.
• Luke 24 – The Road to Emmaus: Explains Mass’s structure via Scripture, culminating in recognition of Christ "in the breaking of the bread."
• Summary: Understanding liturgical connections in Scripture helps Protestants grasp Catholic worship as biblically grounded, not extraneous tradition.

Call #2: What Makes Mormons & Jehovah's Witnesses Not Christian? (28:26–34:41)

Caller (Colin, NC): Why aren't Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses Christians, while Protestants, Orthodox, and Catholics are?

Joe’s Answer:

• Criterion: Trinitarian Baptism — Church membership is based on valid baptism (Acts 2, 19), not merely belief or affection for Jesus.
  • "If Christianity was just an idea, then making sure your idea...matched...your neighbor might be the way you became a Christian. But Christianity is much more than that. Christianity is a relationship, but it’s also a covenant, a structured relationship." — Joe (C) (29:57)
• Baptismal Differences: While Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses perform baptisms, they explicitly deny the Trinity; this results in invalid baptism in the eyes of the Church.
• Historical Precedent: Early Christians distinguished between John’s baptism and Christian, Trinitarian baptism (Acts 19).
  • "Paul gives them [Ephesians] that [Trinitarian baptism], that brings them into the Christian family in the full sense." — Joe (C) (31:24)
• Pastoral Tone: The intent isn't to be exclusionary, but to explain the sacramental theological reality that bonds Christians sacramentally and theologically.

Caller Follow-up: Marian Doctrines & Arguments with Friends (34:41–36:52)

• Mary’s Perpetual Virginity & Sinlessness:
  • The perpetual virginity and sinlessness of Mary were believed by early Christians.
  • The argument about other children is rebutted: at the Cross, Jesus entrusts Mary to John, which would be unthinkable if she had other children.
  • "Not one [alleged sibling] cares for her in her old age...it's worth calling out just the implausibility of it." — Joe (C) (36:21)
• Historical Silence on ‘Jesus’ Nieces & Nephews: The absence of any mention of such relatives further supports the Church’s position.

Call #3: How to Disagree with Church Authority (39:42–46:36)

Caller (John, OK): “Is there a way to properly disagree with a priest, bishop, or the Pope without risking excommunication?”

Joe’s Answer:

• Distinctions:
  • Disagreeing with Church teaching vs. Church discipline
  • Disagreeing as an authority or layperson
• Canon Law (Canon 212):
  • Christians are bound to obey matters declared as doctrine or law, but
  • Section 2: Are free to make known their spiritual needs and desires to pastors
  • Section 3: Have the right, at times even a duty, to voice opinions “with reverence” and in a way that serves the good of the Church without harming faith/morals or dignity.
• On Discretion:
  • Consider knowledge, competence, and standing
  • "You should do that in a way that is non prejudicial to the integrity of faith and morals. So don’t be undermining church teaching. You should do it in a way that is reverent toward their pastors." — Joe (C) (44:42)
• Analogy: Like respectfully disagreeing with parents or employers—intent and manner matter.

Call #4: Why Didn’t God Give All the Same Grace as Mary? (49:50–54:47)

Caller (Augustine, Mexico): Why wasn’t everyone given the ‘special’ grace of sinlessness like Mary?

Joe’s Answer:

• Inequality of Grace Is Not Unjust:
  • God grants different gifts to different people (cf. spiritual gifts, choirs of angels, natural world diversity).
  • "The gifts we have are meant...for the upbuilding of the body of Christ."
• Justice in Judgment:
  • Those who receive more (like Mary) are judged for what they do with more (cf. Parable of Talents, Luke 12:48).
• Mary's Unique Role:
  • Mary’s graces equipped her to give a free and uncoerced 'yes' to God's plan, as Mother of Jesus.
  • For more, listen to Trent Horn’s “I Was Wrong. Worse, Trent Horn was right.” (54:30)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It is a lie that...the Pilgrims came here seeking religious freedom. They...came here to have a place where they could kick everyone else out that disagreed." — Si (B) (05:34)
• "Christianity is a relationship, but it's also a covenant, a structured relationship." — Joe (C) (29:57)
• "The gifts we have are meant...for the upbuilding of the body of Christ." — Joe (C) (53:15)
• "There is an inequality in what he gives, but an equality in the sense that the one who has more is judged for what he did with more." — Joe (C) (54:05)

Key Timestamps for Segments

• Thanksgiving and Church History Banter: 00:30–14:00
• Revelation & the Mass/Scripture-Liturgy Connections: 15:18–26:14
• Mormons/Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christian Identity: 28:26–34:41
• Mary’s Virginity/Sinlessness Arguments: 34:41–36:52
• Properly Disagreeing with Church Authority: 39:42–46:36
• Grace and Marian Privileges: 49:50–54:47

Tone

The episode blends academic apologetics with accessible explanations, interspersed with Thanksgiving jokes and relaxed humor. The hosts maintain a friendly, fraternal style—even when discussing serious doctrinal points.

Concluding Thoughts

Joe Heschmeyer provides clear and nuanced Catholic answers to complex questions about Christian identity, liturgy, authority, and grace. Listeners are encouraged to approach theological disagreements thoughtfully and respectfully, always with an eye toward unity, fidelity, and charity in the Church.