#12476 What Makes Mormons Not Christian? Grace and Disagreement - Joe Heschmeyer

Summary

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Catholic Answers Live - Episode #12476

"What Makes Mormons Not Christian? Grace and Disagreement" – Joe Heschmeyer

Date: November 27, 2025
Host: Catholic Answers (Si)
Guest: Joe Heschmeyer

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Overview

This episode of Catholic Answers Live centers around the challenging question of what makes certain groups, specifically Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, not Christian according to Catholic theology. Apologist Joe Heschmeyer joins to field listener questions on a wide array of topics: the liturgical dimensions of Scripture, Marian doctrines, and how to appropriately disagree with Church authority. Throughout, the tone is congenially academic with Thanksgiving humor and brotherly banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Lighthearted Opening & Thanksgiving Banter (00:30–14:00)

• Thanksgiving Spirit: The hosts joke about holiday moods and historical trivia, highlighting Thanksgiving's Catholic connections and lesser-known facts about early American colonies. Chris Check and Joe recount aspects of Catholic and Protestant history and their implications for the concept of "religious freedom."
• Historical Context: The discussion covers the role of various Catholic and Protestant communities in early North American history, touching on misconceptions around Thanksgiving, Squanto, and European settlers.
  • "It is a lie that the Pilgrims came here seeking religious freedom... They did not come here seeking religious freedom. They came here to have a place where they could kick everyone else out that disagreed." — Si (B) (05:34)
• Travel & Pilgrimage Promotions: There is talk about upcoming Catholic river cruises highlighting the Christianization of Europe, especially Germanic lands, and the spiritual heritage of places like Aachen, Cologne, and the Rhine Valley.

Call #1: Scripture & Liturgy Connections for Protestants (15:18–26:14)

Caller (Austin, Mobile, AL): How can he help his Baptist/Lutheran friend see the Mass in light of Scripture, especially Revelation?

Joe’s Answer:

• Book of Revelation as Liturgical: Hahn’s The Lamb’s Supper is recommended as a resource; the Book of Revelation is interpreted through a liturgical, not just prophetic, lens. (16:43)
• Early Christian Understanding: Church Fathers saw the four living creatures (Revelation 4:6-8) as symbols for the Gospels. Revelation is filled with references to Eucharist and liturgy—incense, "Holy Holy Holy,” menorah imagery, etc.
  • "Scott Hahn describes this experience of going to Mass after having studied the Book of Revelation and being just kind of dumbstruck at the number of references between Revelation and the structure of the Mass." — Joe (C) (18:02)
• Justin Martyr’s First Apology: Early writings (chapters 65-67) demonstrate early Christian worship looked like Mass, not a later invention.
• Luke 24 – The Road to Emmaus: Explains Mass’s structure via Scripture, culminating in recognition of Christ "in the breaking of the bread."
• Summary: Understanding liturgical connections in Scripture helps Protestants grasp Catholic worship as biblically grounded, not extraneous tradition.

Call #2: What Makes Mormons & Jehovah's Witnesses Not Christian? (28:26–34:41)

Caller (Colin, NC): Why aren't Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses Christians, while Protestants, Orthodox, and Catholics are?

Joe’s Answer:

• Criterion: Trinitarian Baptism — Church membership is based on valid baptism (Acts 2, 19), not merely belief or affection for Jesus.
  • "If Christianity was just an idea, then making sure your idea...matched...your neighbor might be the way you became a Christian. But Christianity is much more than that. Christianity is a relationship, but it’s also a covenant, a structured relationship." — Joe (C) (29:57)
• Baptismal Differences: While Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses perform baptisms, they explicitly deny the Trinity; this results in invalid baptism in the eyes of the Church.
• Historical Precedent: Early Christians distinguished between John’s baptism and Christian, Trinitarian baptism (Acts 19).
  • "Paul gives them [Ephesians] that [Trinitarian baptism], that brings them into the Christian family in the full sense." — Joe (C) (31:24)
• Pastoral Tone: The intent isn't to be exclusionary, but to explain the sacramental theological reality that bonds Christians sacramentally and theologically.

Caller Follow-up: Marian Doctrines & Arguments with Friends (34:41–36:52)

• Mary’s Perpetual Virginity & Sinlessness:
  • The perpetual virginity and sinlessness of Mary were believed by early Christians.
  • The argument about other children is rebutted: at the Cross, Jesus entrusts Mary to John, which would be unthinkable if she had other children.
  • "Not one [alleged sibling] cares for her in her old age...it's worth calling out just the implausibility of it." — Joe (C) (36:21)
• Historical Silence on ‘Jesus’ Nieces & Nephews: The absence of any mention of such relatives further supports the Church’s position.

Call #3: How to Disagree with Church Authority (39:42–46:36)

Caller (John, OK): “Is there a way to properly disagree with a priest, bishop, or the Pope without risking excommunication?”

Joe’s Answer:

• Distinctions:
  • Disagreeing with Church teaching vs. Church discipline
  • Disagreeing as an authority or layperson
• Canon Law (Canon 212):
  • Christians are bound to obey matters declared as doctrine or law, but
  • Section 2: Are free to make known their spiritual needs and desires to pastors
  • Section 3: Have the right, at times even a duty, to voice opinions “with reverence” and in a way that serves the good of the Church without harming faith/morals or dignity.
• On Discretion:
  • Consider knowledge, competence, and standing
  • "You should do that in a way that is non prejudicial to the integrity of faith and morals. So don’t be undermining church teaching. You should do it in a way that is reverent toward their pastors." — Joe (C) (44:42)
• Analogy: Like respectfully disagreeing with parents or employers—intent and manner matter.

Call #4: Why Didn’t God Give All the Same Grace as Mary? (49:50–54:47)

Caller (Augustine, Mexico): Why wasn’t everyone given the ‘special’ grace of sinlessness like Mary?

Joe’s Answer:

• Inequality of Grace Is Not Unjust:
  • God grants different gifts to different people (cf. spiritual gifts, choirs of angels, natural world diversity).
  • "The gifts we have are meant...for the upbuilding of the body of Christ."
• Justice in Judgment:
  • Those who receive more (like Mary) are judged for what they do with more (cf. Parable of Talents, Luke 12:48).
• Mary's Unique Role:
  • Mary’s graces equipped her to give a free and uncoerced 'yes' to God's plan, as Mother of Jesus.
  • For more, listen to Trent Horn’s “I Was Wrong. Worse, Trent Horn was right.” (54:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It is a lie that...the Pilgrims came here seeking religious freedom. They...came here to have a place where they could kick everyone else out that disagreed." — Si (B) (05:34)
• "Christianity is a relationship, but it's also a covenant, a structured relationship." — Joe (C) (29:57)
• "The gifts we have are meant...for the upbuilding of the body of Christ." — Joe (C) (53:15)
• "There is an inequality in what he gives, but an equality in the sense that the one who has more is judged for what he did with more." — Joe (C) (54:05)

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Key Timestamps for Segments

• Thanksgiving and Church History Banter: 00:30–14:00
• Revelation & the Mass/Scripture-Liturgy Connections: 15:18–26:14
• Mormons/Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christian Identity: 28:26–34:41
• Mary’s Virginity/Sinlessness Arguments: 34:41–36:52
• Properly Disagreeing with Church Authority: 39:42–46:36
• Grace and Marian Privileges: 49:50–54:47

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Tone

The episode blends academic apologetics with accessible explanations, interspersed with Thanksgiving jokes and relaxed humor. The hosts maintain a friendly, fraternal style—even when discussing serious doctrinal points.

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Concluding Thoughts

Joe Heschmeyer provides clear and nuanced Catholic answers to complex questions about Christian identity, liturgy, authority, and grace. Listeners are encouraged to approach theological disagreements thoughtfully and respectfully, always with an eye toward unity, fidelity, and charity in the Church.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Welcome back, Catholic Answers Live. It's not Thanksgiving yet, but it's getting closer and closer. I'm already in the Thanksgiving spirit. I just invented that Thanksgiving spirit. It's the spirit of really wanting whipped cream on pumpkin pie. I think I feel very relaxed and casual today. And somebody made a comment. Somebody who was watching the show said, cy seems angry at Joe today. I think my relaxed demeanor is coming across as bitterness or something, Joe. And I apologize for that.

[C]

I think you have a nice professional veneer, but then the horrible, bitter core comes out in your more relaxed moments.

[B]

What I was saying is I felt like I was hiding the bitterness that I feel towards you that I harbor. I'm not mad at you at all, Joe Heschmeyer. I have no feeling. But somebody said they think I'm mad at you again.

[C]

I think these people don't have brothers. But I didn't.

[B]

Was I even. Oh, I said. Made some jokes about you and your puns. But, I mean, objectively speaking, your puns.

[C]

You've also been doing karate during answers, which I think people need to know.

[B]

That had to do with the people.

[C]

I'm a.

[B]

That's a private thing between me and the YouTube audience.

[C]

All right.

[B]

That's got nothing to do with you. I do want to ask you, though, to do a better job this hour because things have changed a little bit around here. Chris Check is in the building. All right. President of Catholic Answers.

[D]

It's a rare moment.

[B]

Chris Check is in the building. Do your job better, Joe. Just work a little harder.

[D]

Well, I caught the end of the first hour as I was driving over here.

[B]

Did you hear Ava?

[D]

I did.

[B]

Isn't she great?

[D]

I did, but it was the call before that troubles me.

[B]

What was it?

[D]

The woman who was confused about when was Thanksgiving Catholic or not? And when it started.

[B]

Oh, and he said.

[D]

And Joe said the first mass of Thanksgiving was in St. Augustine, Florida.

[B]

Yeah, they don't say St. Augustine.

[D]

No, but it's not the pronunciation that troubles me there, though. That does trouble me a lot. Troubles you?

[B]

Chris, you gotta relax, man.

[D]

No, see, I have more bitterness than you. Si. But no. What about 1492? Cause Joe said in the New World.

[C]

Oh, yeah, sorry. In America. Excuse me, I don't write.

[D]

Okay. Mexico's not a Mexico.

[C]

Or Canada.

[D]

Oh.

[B]

But I think the first Mass in Barbados, was it?

[D]

Okay, all right, but how about Vera Cruz 1517?

[B]

Was that out here?

[D]

That's North America. Mexico is North America. I just.

[C]

But it's not America. I meant to say America, not the new word. Okay.

[D]

I just want to say I'm very ecumenical on this and I think Mexico is part of North America.

[B]

Well, we, as a matter of fact.

[C]

I believe we part of America.

[B]

We recently renamed something that used to be had the name Mexico and now has the name America.

[D]

The other thing to underscore the good points that Joe were making, long before the separatists, exclusionists, Puritans set themselves up to practice religious intolerance in Massachusetts. That's right, yes, The Catholics.

[B]

Ask Roger Williams about that.

[D]

The French Catholics settled Acadia, what we now call Nova Scotia. Long before. Before Jamestown. Before Jamestown there was Acadia.

[B]

But what do you think about that Squanto story? Isn't that a wild thing?

[D]

Squanto is a funny story, though I kind of take exception to one part of it.

[B]

What, that he was Cathol?

[D]

No, that the Pilgrims were so incompetent they didn't know how to grow anything. I mean that whole bit about they.

[C]

Didn'T know how to grow the crops native to the New World.

[D]

Okay, I'm willing to probably believe that's a possibility, but these are the.

[C]

I'm giving a heavily censored version of how bad those winters got. No, it was bad.

[D]

No, most people died. Jamestown too.

[B]

And Acadia. Yeah.

[C]

That's. No, dug up graves to try to get things to eat.

[B]

Yeah, that's actually one of the first things the Pilgrims did was dig up graves.

[C]

That's true.

[B]

They did that on Cape Cod before they ever even got to Plymouth. Yeah.

[D]

So how come you didn't. I didn't learn that in kindergarten.

[B]

No, they forget to tell you that. Oh yeah, and the Pilgrims accidentally bumped into Cape Codden.

[C]

I'm happy to say, in their Catholic Montessori learned about Squanto and came home happy to talk about it. Yeah.

[D]

No, the Squanto story is extraordinary and he is a Catholic. He's back.

[B]

But everybody oversimplifies the story. Like people go, oh, you need to hear the true story of the oppression of the. Look, both sides are oversimplifying the story. It's a fascinating multifaceted story. Esquanto story testifies to that. It's just, it's so multi layered.

[C]

Not least of which is one detail like the reason that there were Wampanoag. I think it was Wampanoag. At the first Thanksgiving. And, you know, the pilgrim one is because they had been excitingly shooting their guns in the air and they thought there was a conflict, and they came to go help fight.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And so it was only men who showed up, and then they realized it was happy shooting, and they're like, oh, yeah, sure, we'll come meet. So that's just a different than the picture. All right.

[B]

You know what?

[D]

Also to Joe's point, it is the Catholics who are the universalists here, the good kind of universalists.

[B]

Well, yes, that's true. I mean, it is a lie that we have that the Pilgrims came here seeking religious freedom.

[D]

No, they came here.

[B]

They did not come here seeking religious freedom. They came here to have a place where they could kick everyone else out that disagreed.

[D]

Bizarre. Yeah.

[C]

Including the Wampanoag, by the way, about King Philip's war and everything else.

[B]

Well, that's a bit later, though. King Philip's war.

[C]

It's the next generation.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

I mean, it's 1675, so. Yeah, it's like 40 years later, so. Yeah, but Philip is the son of the chief who's president the first Thanksgiving.

[B]

Oh, he is, Massaso.

[C]

I think he is.

[B]

He's the son. Philip is the son.

[C]

Or I may be wrong about that, but I believe that is the case. All right. Yeah, he is. I just checked. He's the second.

[D]

Joe is remarkably literate in New England history for someone from.

[B]

He's from Kansas City. It's right next to New England, isn't it, Joe?

[C]

My favorite part is being on the east coast recently, which. I mean, last hour.

[B]

How am I supposed to know where Kansas City is?

[D]

I understand you.

[C]

You.

[D]

Your literacy. You grew up there. Yeah, sort of. Well, no.

[B]

No. I mean, half my life.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, half of my childhood was.

[D]

Eastern among the Wampanoag. You lived among them.

[B]

I did not live among. I suppose I did live among them. I just didn't know that they were around.

[C]

Thanks be to God. You didn't dig up their graves?

[B]

No, not to my recollection. I don't recall ever digging up any Indian graves in Massachusetts. I want to talk to you about a different kind of history, though. A different. A little bit earlier history. The history of.

[C]

Sorry, can I say one final thing?

[D]

Please, Joe.

[B]

This is only the fifth time.

[C]

Thanksgiving Eve.

[B]

It's Thanksgiving asoyed.

[C]

If you go to his Wikipedia page, I just discovered this. The picture is a sculpture from Kansas City, Missouri. Only reinforcing this deep connection.

[B]

Is this the one with his hands up like Is he? Does he?

[C]

No.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[C]

He's gazing off into the distance.

[B]

He was a gazer, that ness.

[C]

Sawyer.

[D]

What's the Kansas City connection?

[A]

I have no idea.

[C]

He visited Kansas City.

[B]

No, he did not. He definitely did not visit Kansas City.

[D]

Did you like the barbecue?

[B]

Okay, look, I want to talk about the Christianizing of Europe. What we should do is some kind of river cruise where we go by the great sights in the doorway. The gateway to the Germanic people for Christianity. We should do that.

[D]

I think it's important you bring up the Germans here. Sah. Because when we think about the growth of Christendom, we think about revelation to the Jews, we think about Greek thought and we think about Roman political order. But the people who put Christendom into action are the Germans.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Boniface. And then he's British, isn't he? Well, he does. He is. His real name is Winfried or Winifred. Yeah, it depends how you spell it.

[B]

Old English names.

[D]

Yeah. Well, like, Patrick wasn't Irish. He was British either, also, but. And then of course, Charlemagne is the central figure here, right? And Hildegard and this whole Rhine river valley that we're gonna go visit in May is the place to learn the story of how Christendom, how Christendom came to be.

[B]

And I get to.

[D]

Did I say that? Okay, yeah, you did that.

[B]

And Christendom, the Holy Roman Emperor Empire, which was completely German fabrication.

[D]

And if you're Voltaire, it's a fabrication. It's a real thing.

[B]

I didn't mean fabrication in the negative sense.

[C]

I just mean.

[D]

Yes, they made it.

[B]

They made it. I don't mean like it's a lie or something, but I guess that is what fabrication means, though. But you can come with us. Just go to Catholic Cruise.

[D]

No Cruise. Catholic Cruise.

[B]

CatholicCruise.com Go to Catholic Cruise.

[D]

There's only. I think there are 10 or 11 cabins.

[B]

10 or 11 left with us. It's a magnificent boat. It's one of the. The finest ships sailing in Europe. And we'll have the whole thing to ourselves. So come with us. CatholicCruise.com Jo's going to be there. I was just going to say I get to give a talk on one of the greatest women in history, Hildegard Bingen. There ain't nobody like her.

[D]

Our friend Father Sebastian Walsh from St. Michael's Abbey is going to serve as our chaplain. And there's Mary, May, the month of Mary. Right. So he's gonna give us a lot of good conferences on our mother.

[B]

Some people who knew Mary Are there?

[D]

Yeah. The Three Kings.

[B]

Oh, I didn't know if you would know who I was talking about.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

They met Mary.

[B]

They met Mary.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

And they are in Cologne.

[A]

They gave her gifts?

[B]

As a matter of fact.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

I'm aching to see the Palatine Chapel.

[D]

Aachen.

[C]

I'm aachen to see the Palatine Chapel. It doesn't work if you do it that way.

[D]

That's how they would say it in Massachusetts. I'm aachen to see.

[C]

I'm Aachin to see the Palatine Chapel.

[B]

You cannot do a new. That was terrible.

[C]

I can't do any accents. I can't do any accents at all. I can barely do this one.

[D]

Hawkins. An important place to get around the imagination of Charlemagne. Because as Joe brings up the Palatine Chapel, he really understands himself as.

[C]

In.

[D]

The legacy or in the patrimony of King David.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, You've mentioned that before. And I gotta learn more about Charlemagne.

[D]

He's an extraordinary guy. A guy not without his own, you know, difficulties, like all of us.

[B]

But as Pope Francis said. Do you know something? Whenever you say as Pope Francis said, everybody knows what sentence you're gonna say.

[D]

Let's make some.

[B]

No one is ever confused about what you're gonna say next.

[D]

Yeah. Let's make some kind of incentive for people to come on to. To come on this.

[B]

All right, Joe Heschmeyer's going to be there. How's that for an indie? You get to spend partial indulgences. Why not a plenary selling indulgences? Joe, we've got enough trouble with the Protestants already.

[C]

That's a good point. We won't do that. Why don't we give a discount instead?

[D]

Yes, let's do.

[B]

All right, tell me about the discount.

[D]

I don't know what it is.

[B]

All right, so tell you what. This is what it is. Cool. There's a second piece of paper here for me to read. Go to kathakruz.com and use the promo code CARADIO2026. We decided not to give you an easy promo code, one that you would need to actually.

[C]

What is this?

[D]

That's a terrible promo code.

[B]

Jennifer Caradio, 2026. Who's gonna remember that.

[D]

If you forget the promo code?

[B]

300 bucks off a person, though, so it's worth it.

[C]

If you get it wrong, it's an extra 300.

[B]

You're right. If you don't remember it, you gotta pay it extra.

[D]

If you forget the promo code, send an email to radioatholic.com or call J. Jennifer.

[B]

Just call up and go. Jennifer. You made a ridiculous promo code. And I just need the. I need the 300 off. Go to CatholicCruise.com, use the promo code Caradio 2026. Sign up for our May 3rd. No, 2nd through 14th cruise up the Rhine. We will start in Amsterdam. We will finish in Basel. We'll go through Aachen, Cologne. We'll see the home country of the great Hildegard of Bingen and Charlemagne. We'll see where the Three Kings ended, and we'll talk about how the Three Kings ended up there. Caradio. No, Caradio 2026 is the promo code. Use [e-mail] Are you.

[D]

Are you and Joe going on to lecture or to talk to the.

[B]

We're supposed to go to Germany.

[D]

Yeah, to the active duty armed forces.

[B]

I have not seen anything to sign yet. Nobody. I don't know that anybody's signed up.

[D]

We are dealing with the government here.

[B]

But is it.

[D]

No, it's the Department of Defense.

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

I think it's just the Catholic community in Germany there that. Serving the American service members overseas. And I'm hoping that we go because.

[C]

It seems like everything is coming together. Well, I spoke to Jennifer yesterday and she was talking about return flights, assuming it was going to happen.

[B]

So we'll find out about it, I guess. Joe and I will be there in Germany May 15th and 16th then, because I know I'm going to be on an airplane on the 17th because I'm going to be on the air here on the 18th. I better be on a plane.

[D]

You're a man of steel. Si.

[B]

Oh, no. I'm gonna be terrible that day. I'm gonna be horrible.

[D]

You mean worse than usual? I was channeling Joe Heschmeyer there, but.

[B]

It'S different when Joe does it. It's different I expected from Joe. Chris.

[D]

I'm sorry. Sorry.

[B]

All right, let me just wipe the tears away.

[D]

All right, back we'll go CatholicCruise.com use.

[B]

The promo code Caradio2026 to save $300 per person.

[D]

It's gonna be so fun, the three of us. We're a fun group.

[C]

We are.

[B]

Fun group.

[C]

Yep. Yeah.

[B]

Particularly Joe. Just ask him. All right, let's take a quick break. Right. Back to the phones when we come back.

[A]

Stay with us for more Catholic Answers Live.

[E]

Underwriting for Catholic Answers Live is provided by Magnificat. Published monthly, Magnificat features texts of daily Mass, prayers, articles, meditations, art commentaries and more. In step with the liturgical rhythm of the church on the [e-mail] Mother Angelica had a simple goal when she began EWTN to reach the world with the gospel. EWTN radio services transmit 24. 7 on over 500 domestic and international AM&FM radio affiliates, satellite radio and web streaming. We've never wavered from our mandate to proclaim the truth and majesty of the Catholic faith. Thank you for joining EWTN in this Ms.

[B]

Welcome back. Catholic Answers Live. Ask Me Anything with Joe Heschmeyer, 888-318-7884. Joe, I'm go directly to the phones. I don't want to keep people waiting anymore. But Chris has left so you can go back to your usual low energy work effort. Okay. Austin in Mobile, Alabama, watching on YouTube. Thanks for waiting, Austin. We're glad you're here.

[F]

Absolutely.

[G]

Nice to talk to you guys.

[B]

You too. Oh, you're on. You go ahead with the question though. You got something?

[C]

Yeah.

[G]

So yeah, big fan by the way. I just, I just finished Pope Peter. It was amazing. My question, Me and my now fiance are in Ocia in our local parish and we've got a Baptist friend who was raised Lutheran and he's really considering the, I guess digging into the arguments for the Catholic faith and he wants to come to a Mass with us. And I've read Scott Han's the Last Supper and the Fourth Cup a few times. You know, it's a lot to get but I, I want, I want to get some, some references, some chapters to kind of point him towards in especially I guess Revelation to really help him see the Mass come alive. Kind of like I get to now after reading it. So just your thoughts on that?

[C]

Yeah, I think you've started at exactly the right place. I think Scott Hahn's book the Lamb's Supper is a fantastic resource for coming to see the Book of Revelation in a new light, seeing it as a liturgical book rather than simply like a prophecy of the future. And you can see from the writings of the early Christians this is how they understood the Book of Revelation as well. So to give you just one example, think about like the, the four living creatures in the Book of Revelation. Do you remember this part? There's four living creatures. One looks like a lion, one looks like an ox, one looks like a man, and one looks like an eagle. The Church Father. This is Revelation 4:6 to 8. The church fathers were really clear that they believed that these represented the four Gospels. So they didn't think this meant some like, you know, strange looking four headed creature or four different creatures. Or anything like this. They understood this instead as a reference to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, that they were reading it in a liturgical way. And at first, that might sound very confusing for people who've never, you know, read Scripture in this way, but let's see if we can unpack each one. So you have the eagle is the Gospel of John. That's the fourth of the four. And the eagle soars above. There's kind of like the mystic heights. And this is also an image of God's glory. And how does the Gospel of John begin? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word is with God, and the Word was God. That it starts from this, the cosmic level, and then moves down to earth very quickly with John the Baptist. Or you have the crying out of the voice of John the Baptist, like a voice crying out in the wilderness, which is associated with the roaring of the lion. And so the Gospel of Mark, which begins this way, is connected to the first of the four living creatures. The second, the ox, is the image of priestly sacrifice, because an ox was one of the sacrificial animals. And the Gospel of Luke opens on the priest Zechariah in the temple. And then you have the face of a man that you have the Gospel of Matthew, which begins with the human genealogy of Christ. So they and different church fathers associated these four in different ways. But even when they disagreed about which ones were which, there was a general consensus that the four living creatures were the four Gospels. So that's an important interpretive clue. Like, they don't deny that there are things prefigured about the future as well, but they understood it in a liturgical way. They understood it in a way that this is about the structure of worship. And I guess a similar way to approach it would be to say, okay, when Jesus talks about the abomination of desolation, is that a reference to the future, or is that a reference to desecrating divine worship? And the answer would be, well, both. This is about, you know, the Romans coming in and desecrating the temple in the year 70. And it's drawing on imagery of when the same thing happened under Greek rule before the time of Christ. So you can see it's liturgical as well as prophetic. Well, similarly, the Book of Revelation is liturgical as well as prophetic. And many Protestants who have never encountered the beauty of the Mass or high liturgy in this way are unfamiliar with these kind of liturgical dimensions to the book. And so you have the, you know, you have the offering of incense, you have the Holy Holy. Holy. It's right there in the book if one after another of these things. And so Scott Hahn describes this experience of going to Mass after having studied the Book of Revelation and being just kind of dumbstruck at the number of references between Revelation and the structure of the Mass, that the Mass is consciously echoing the Heavenly Liturgy that we see in the Book of Revelation. And if you read it in that way, you start to notice, like, oh, wow, there is an awful lot of liturgical imagery here. Even like the seven churches are represented with the seven candles in the lampstand, which is a liturgical image, the seven candled Menorah. And so the entire book is structured in this deeply liturgical kind of way. So that's one part I would encourage you as well, if you don't mind doing a little more reading. Although if you've already read the Lamb's Supper, you clearly don't mind doing a little bit of reading to read, or ideally even get your friend to read the relevant sections of First Apology by Saint Justin Martyr, because it'd be easy to imagine that this was all like some newfangled thing that, you know, in the 20th century or something, Catholics started celebrating the Mass in this way that sounded like the Book of Revelation. But the reality is, as far back as we find Christian worship, we find Christians worshiping in this way that looks and sounds like the Mass. So if you read the first apology from the mid-1100s, beginning specifically around chapter 65 and then 66, 67, those three chapters, and they're really paragraphs more than chapters. You see the structure of what worship looks like, and you see a beautiful description of the Eucharist. You see, like, the kiss of peace. You see, like, the whole structure of they've got the readings, they've got preaching, they have a collection, they've got the sign of peace, they have the Eucharist, they receive Communion, then there's a dismissal, and the whole thing looks and sounds again, astonishingly a, liturgical B, like the Mass today, and C, you can then read backwards and say, well, where else do we find this basic pattern? So you've got Revelation, you got first apology. The extra clue I want to add here is the road to Emmaus. In Luke 24, Jesus is on the road to Emmaus with the two disciples. And it's structured in this very demarcated way, the first half, you have a kind of Liturgy of the Word. They're reading Scripture, or rather they're talking about Scripture, and Jesus is opening the law and the prophets and showing how it points to him. So you've got the unpacking of Scripture. Then they arrive in Emmaus. They then invite him in, and he eats with them, or rather he goes to table with them. And then we're told in verse 30, when he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them. And we're told after that, in verse 35, that they went back and told the apostles what had happened on the road and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread. But they don't know who Jesus is during this kind of Liturgy of the Word. They recognize him in the Liturgy of the Eucharist, that in the Eucharist, they understand who he is. And that language, taking blessing, breaking and giving is, again, very liturgical. And the reference to the breaking of the bread is how Luke also describes the early Christian eucharist. In Acts 2, for instance, we're told that the early Christians devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So I mention all of that to say, show him those pieces. And I think things might start to come together. It's not like you're going to see one silver bullet where he just says, aha. That verse is used in the Bible, and therefore I'm going to become Catholic. But learning to read things like the Road to Emmaus, learning to read things like the Book of Revelation in this liturgical way with an eye towards what the earliest Christian liturgy looked like, should prepare him to understand the Mass at a deeper level. That makes sense.

[G]

It absolutely does. And funnily enough, one of his next readings, he wanted to read Justin Martyr. So that would be perfect.

[B]

Worked out perfect.

[C]

You know what, Austin? Let me do this for you. If you want to stick around and give your name and address and all that stuff, they can send you a copy of my book. The Eucharist is really Jesus, and there's, I think, some helpful things there to help do a deep dive on this question.

[B]

All you got to do is, yeah.

[G]

No, I'd love to. I appreciate it.

[B]

All right, very good. Siobhan is on the phones. Be respectful. She's a big deal around here. She far outranks all of us. So she has humbled herself to come among the radio department. And if you just give her your address, we will send it off to Mobile, Alabama. And thank you very much, Austin, for the call. The number here is 888-318-7884. Hey, if you're on the line, hang on. We're gonna get to you when we come back. All of our tomfoolery is over. We will get right into the meat of it between now and then.

[C]

We're done talking turkey. We're ready for the meat of the.

[B]

That'S right, we are ready to dig in, even though turkey meat is disgusting and nobody likes it. We'll be right back with you. Don't agree, Joe?

[C]

Oh, we'll just say that don't know how to cook turkey.

[B]

I don't. We'll be right back.

[A]

Have you ever wondered about the mysterious, even obscure aspects of the Catholic faith? Dive into the Jimmy Akin Podcast, where Jimmy brings together information from many fields as he pushes the boundaries of of apologetics. Tune in today to the Jimmy Akin Podcast Mysteries of the Faith, a highly entertaining, informative and at times humorous show that will help you grow in your faith. Visit jimmyakinpodcast.com today to subscribe.

[E]

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[A]

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[E]

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[D]

Welcome back.

[B]

Catholic Answers live. Yeah, I'm a little bit in a holiday mood today, so maybe I'm going slower than usual and having a little more fun than usual. But there's a lot of folks on the line, so I'm just going to get to the Phones and let Joe talk with them. Colin is in North Carolina watching on YouTube. Welcome, Colin. Go ahead with your question.

[F]

Hello.

[C]

How are y'? All?

[B]

Very well, thank you.

[C]

Great. How are you? Good.

[H]

I'm doing all right. So, yeah, I have a question. So I'm Catholic, and I have three friends. Friends. Two of them are brothers and they're Mormon, and one of them is a Jehovah Witness. And one of the brothers keeps on saying that they're Christian. And I keep on saying, you know, like, no, not really, you guys aren't. Because, you know, y' all believe that, you know, God was once man to earn his way into godhood, and that us man can even earn our way into godhood. And I even mentioned about the Eucharist, and then he mentioned about, like, oh, well, Protestants don't believe you, Chris. And so I sort of want to ask, like, why? What makes Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons not Christians? Whereas for, you know, Protestants, Orthodox Catholics, you know, are considered Christians?

[C]

Yeah, great question. The key is baptism, Trinitarian baptism. So if you go back to Acts chapter two, when St. Peter's preaching on Pentecost, the crowd is cut to the heart, and they say to Peter and the rest of the apostles, brethren, what shall we do? And Peter said to them, repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And then we're told, so those who received his word were baptized. And there were added that day about 3,000 souls. Well, added that day to what? Added to the church? That the entrance into the church is through baptism. And so the way someone becomes a Christian isn't simply a matter of having, like, the right ideas in their head or something like that. If Christianity was just an idea, then making sure your idea, the kind of mental map matched the mental map of your neighbor might be the way that you became a Christian. This is how ideas often work. Like, what does it mean to be a capitalist or a communist or a whatever. Ist. Ism. It's to have a certain set of ideas, to believe a certain set of things. But Christianity is much more than that. Christianity is a relationship, but it's also a covenant, a structured relationship. And so to be part of the Christian family is a little bit like saying, what does it mean to be married? It isn't just to, like, be totally in love with your spouse. That's an idea. And so if someone said, well, yeah, I'm married. I really love the girl, I'M dating, you would say, well, that doesn't make you married. I mean, it's great that you love the girl you're dating, it's great that you're devoted, but are you in an actual covenant union with her? And if so, you are married, and if not, you're not? Well, likewise, loving the person of Jesus Christ is really wonderful, but that is not what actually makes someone a Christian. That there were a lot of people in the time of Jesus who found Jesus fascinating, who might have really loved him in many ways that didn't make them Christians. The way you become a Christian and the way you've always been understood to become a Christian is through baptism. Now Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons will say that they believe in baptism, but they deny explicitly. In both cases they denied the Trinity. And so doing another kind of baptism isn't good enough. Like that, that's not enough. And we see this really clearly in Acts chapter 19, because there was another kind of baptism that existed at the time of Christ and it was the baptism of John. Now the baptism of John was not bad, but the baptism of John was just a symbol. It was a baptism for the repentance of sins in the sense that you, you made a public kind of acknowledgment that you'd send and you were giving your life to God. And this is what many Christians of kind of a low church variety Baptist, non denominational think Christian baptism is, but it's not. It never has been. Christian baptism is something God does for us rather than something we do for God. And the easiest way to see this is to see in Acts 19, Paul is in Ephesus. He finds some disciples there and he says, did you receive the Holy Spirit when you were about, when you believed? And they said, no, we've never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit. And he says, into what then were you baptized? They said, into John's baptism. And that's not good enough. You need an actual Christian baptism. Paul said, john baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who is to come after him, that is Jesus. On hearing this, they are then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them. And they spoke with tongues and prophesied. There were about 12 of them in all. So notice, even though in some sense they're already disciples, they haven't received a trinitarian baptism. They've never even heard of the Holy Spirit. Paul offers them and notice Paul's confusion, like, how can you be baptized and never heard of the Holy Spirit? And then it turns out because they haven't received trinitarian baptism. So Paul gives them that, that brings them into the Christian family in the full sense. So we can affirm a lot that we have in common with Jehovah's Witnesses and with Mormons, but we can't in good conscience claim that they're baptized Christians when they're not. And we can't claim that something else makes you a Christian when it doesn't. So when we say they're not Christian, we don't say that to be rude or mean. We say that to be faithful to the reality of baptism as a sacrament that brings you into the body of Christ, the Church. That makes sense, Colin. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, you bet.

[H]

Definitely makes sense.

[C]

Yeah.

[H]

Because we've gotten to like some arguments sometimes and they always mention about, oh, well, why didn't Mary, why did Mary stay a virgin? Well, you know, she was removed from sin when she was conceived and she's the new Eve while Jesus is the.

[C]

New Adam, if I'm correct. Yeah. And this is pointing to a lot with Mary. The early Christians believed both that she was without sin and perpetually a virgin. Now, there's a lot more that we could say in regard to that one small point I want to make sure I and as I'd love it if you call in again, we can do more conversation on this, but I want to get to some of the other callers, but I do want to give you one piece there. So when we're talking about, you know, Mary not having any other children, one of the clearest places you can see this is in John 19 at the cross, when Mary's entrusted to John. Now, the commandment and the Ten Commandments honor your father and mother. We think of it today as something they'll tell like little kids, but it's not written. The Ten Commandments are not written primarily to little kids. Like, we're not telling little kids, do not commit adultery. These were commandments principally to adults. Now, kids don't commit adultery either, but these are commandments particularly to adults. And honor father and mother meant taking care of them in their old age. And you can find plenty of Jewish stuff written about this. You can also find Christian stuff like in the New Testament, where we're told the person who doesn't care for their own family is worse than an unbeliever. So the idea that many Protestants have that Mary has a bunch of Other kids, and not one of them follows the ten Commandments. Not one of them cares for her in her old age. And so she has to be entrusted to a non relative is such an outrageous sort of theory that it's worth calling out just the implausibility of it. That and the fact that, you know, the early Christians are completely unaware of these other kids and their family. Nobody talks about Jesus nieces and nephews, which you would think would be a big deal in the early Christian community, but they don't exist.

[B]

Colin, thank you for the call. It sounds like you are engaged in longer term apologetics, so I'd like to send you our big book of Catholic answers. We've got a big Book of Catholic answers and a Big book of Catholic Answers, Volume 2. Either one, whichever one you want, just tell Siobhan, give her an address, we'll send it to you there in North Carolina. We'd love you to have it. All right, back to Oklahoma we go for our friend, the John in Oklahoma. John, welcome.

[F]

Hey. Hey, Si. Happy Thanksgiving and Happy Advent to everybody.

[B]

Oh, thank you for saying that. Thank you, John, for reminding us. We are on the cusp now. We're getting closer and closer to the big feast day. So yeah, time to start celebrating adventure. Thank you, John.

[F]

Well, in sigh us quote unquote, old guys need to stick together. Especially when these young guys seem to get a little uppity and think they got one on us. Now, at the beginning of the show, Joe said, you know when you said, wait, but wait, there's more. He said, nobody ever came up with that and said that. And I have to correct him because I. Originally from Florida. Yeah, okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[F]

And this, this guy was a. Was a rock star around Florida and it was the great Ron Popeil. Oh, Ron Popeil of Infomercial.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Was the one who coined Pocket Fisherman.

[F]

Ron Popeil Hairspray, the spray on hair.

[B]

Yeah, I don't like to talk about that.

[C]

People, I would be really interested if you could do me a favor after this, see if you can find him actually saying that.

[B]

Ron Popeil.

[F]

Yeah, yeah. It's part of Google. And he also coined the phrase.

[C]

Yeah, no, no. Find a video of him. You can find people saying he said it. Find a video of him.

[B]

Actually, Joe is just not laying down here. He's got. He's gonna fight you on this.

[C]

Trust me on this. It's gonna be a lively Google search.

[F]

All right, all right. Well, I have a task and I do have your. Your Facebook messenger. We're on Facebook. So I will send it to you.

[C]

Okay, we're gonna.

[B]

You know what? If you have any trouble, we'll work on this together. Ron Popeil said.

[C]

Awesome.

[B]

But wait, there's more. Just set it and forget it, all right? Joe doesn't even remember the Pocket Fisherman. This is before Joe's time.

[F]

Old enough to remember Ron Popeil.

[B]

No, I don't think so. I don't think so.

[C]

I know who he is. I watched documentary on him once.

[B]

Yeah, but there's. If you're a certain age, Ron Popeil is part of your life, all right.

[F]

In central Florida, we knew him.

[B]

All right, you better give Joe your question, though.

[F]

Okay, here it is. Okay, so I need to know, is there a proper way to disagree with a priest, a bishop, and the Pope without falling into possible, you know, getting thrown out of the Catholic Church? Now, we've seen recently that there's been even a couple bishops, and I think. Yeah, I think bishops, if not cardinals also, that have gone about it apparently the wrong way and have been excommunicated.

[C]

Or criticizing the Catholic Church.

[F]

No, like criticizing a priest or criticizing the bishop or criticizing the Pope. Is there a proper way to do it? Because I know that we don't have to blindly, you know, believe everything they say we. And we can disagree at times. And is there a proper way to disagree with them?

[C]

Yeah, there is. So let's start with really separate questions, like disagreeing with your pastor as opposed to disagreeing with the Pope. And are you disagreeing with, like, a church teaching, or are you just disagreeing with, like, the way the Pope is. Pope said something, like in an interview or off the cuff. Because not everything the Pope says is automatically church teaching. It doesn't work like that. Just like, you know, not everything the president tweets is automatically US Law. Similarly, if you ask the Pope a question, he answers, that doesn't just make it church teaching by virtue of that fact. So canon 212 of the Code of Canon Law says in section one, conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, in as much as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church. Now, notice those two categories. There can be church law where they say, we're going to do things this way. They're not claiming, you know, Jesus always thought we were going to, you know, do Meatless Fridays or something. They're just setting church law. There's a certain amount of. You have to set. Even people who don't Think of it in that way. Do this as well. If you say, you know, our church meets at such and such a time. There you go. That's a little bit of church law. So there's. For the good of the order, sometimes you need church law. And so we should respect and obey that. And similarly, we should respect and obey when things are declared as part of the faith. But notice this is declared not just like them saying something off the cuff. This is an actual declaration with the actual establishing rules. Section 2. The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the church needs, especially spiritual ones and their desires, that it is a misunderstanding of submission. To imagine it means pay, pray and obey. And that's it. That there is. So I'm actually, I've got a video coming out on Tuesday looking at male headship. And one of the ways male headship is misunderstood within marriage is the idea that it just means wives have to, like, shut up and agree with everything their husband says. That's not true. And one of the easiest ways to see that that's not true is that all of us are called to submit to God, but we're still called to pray. Even though God knows what we want before we're going to ask him, we're still called to make our thoughts and opinions and preferences and desires known. And that's to God, who knows everything and is perfect. To a person who doesn't know everything, who can't read your mind, who isn't perfect, who may have some bad plans. It's really important that you make your needs, especially your spiritual needs known as well as your desires. So it's perfectly okay to say, bishop, I'd really like you to do X. Hopefully I'd really like you to do Y. That's completely within your right. As. As a Catholic. Even if you're saying, I'd really like it if we didn't go this way, we went this way instead. That's great. You can do that. Section three. According to the. And these are important details. According to the knowledge, competence and prestige what they possess, they, the Christian faithful have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to the common advantage and the dignity of persons. There's a lot there. There's a few things to consider. Number one, if you don't like the direction something's going, you should take a good hard look at what is your actual level of knowledge, competence and prestige. Like somebody who's really prominent within the church. Staying silent on a thing has a certain implication in the way that somebody just like an ordinary person in the pews doesn't. That doesn't mean an ordinary person in the pews can't speak out, but you might have more of a duty to speak out if you have a kind of prominence. Similarly, it's important to have knowledge and competence. So on an issue of say, bioethics doctors saying we could really use more guidance in this area, or the church's guidance here is not, you know, it's not sufficiently precise, something like that. They're in a great position to express themselves because they have the knowledge, competence and prestige. But even if you don't, that doesn't mean you have to. Again, doesn't just mean you have to shut up. But the way you speak out, you should be mindful of am I speaking out as an expert on the topic or as an interested person who's kind of ignorant of it and then address it in that way. You can say, I'm no expert, but it seems to me like xyz. But then as you're doing that, making your opinion known both to your pastors, your bishop, your priest, but also, if need be, to the Pope, and also expressing yourself in the broader Christian faithful community, you should do that in a way that is non prejudicial to the integrity of faith and morals. So don't be undermining church teaching. You should do it in a way that is reverent towards your pastors. So don't attack them in, you know, an unbecoming way. And you should be attentive at all times to the common advantage and the dignity of person. So is this actually like, am I disventing because I'm upset? Or is this actually something that'll build up the church? And a catch all way of talking about this is like kids with their parents or employees with their boss. There are times where you may say, I don't like the direction the company's going. I don't like this decision my mom or dad made or whatever. And it's okay, it's within your dignity to address that. But if you start speaking in a really disrespectful and demeaning way, that's a red flag that you're not approaching that in a Christian manner that makes sense.

[B]

I don't know if it was me or John, but we got disconnected. So a lot was going on during that answer. So I apologize for that. John, if it was me that got you disconnected, or maybe he just went to listen on the air. I don't know. We have to take a quick break. But wait, there's more. We'll be right back with more Joe Heschmeyer on CATHOLIC ANSWERS Live.

[A]

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[D]

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[C]

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[D]

Apple sauce. Nobody was made angry.

[E]

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[A]

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[C]

Welcome back.

[B]

Catholic Answers Live. A little trip down middle, remembering the late great Ron Popeil pocket fisherman Chop O Matic. Many people think he's responsible for Bassomatic, but that was not. Do you remember anybody here remember Bassomatic? A few people in there.

[C]

The snl.

[B]

Yes, Dan Aykroyd, but the O Matic ending, that was Ron Popeil. He had the Chop O Matic and the Vege O Matic. And then Dan Aykroyd decided to make the Bassomatic. Let's go to. We're going to Mexico next. Oh, great. We've been north of the border, south of the border, Augustine in Mexico. Are you there with us?

[G]

Okay.

[B]

Hello?

[G]

Hello, guys.

[B]

Hello. Yes. Do you have Thanksgiving to Mexico? I never heard if you have a Thanksgiving Day in Mexico.

[G]

No, we don't.

[B]

You don't have a Thanksgiving Day?

[G]

No, I don't think we have anything close to that, actually.

[C]

You don't thank God for your black tomorrow. We won't consider it cultural appropriation. You have whatever food you want and say you're celebrating Thanksgiving Yeah.

[G]

Okay, I'll be sure to do that.

[B]

Okay, good.

[G]

I'll probably not be having turkey.

[B]

No, it's awful. Augustine, we don't want to try to convince the rest of the world to eat turkey. We should have fewer Americans eating turkey. I want to start having ham for Thanksgiving. I want that to be the. But go ahead, I'm holding you up. Go ahead with your question.

[G]

All right, thank you. So basically, for a little bit of context. Well, first, it's a great honor to be talking to both of you. Oh, well, yesterday. I was watching yesterday's shows with Carlo Broussard and with Dr. Carlo Broussard and he was giving an answer to a question and he said that Mary was given a very special grade that allowed her to retain her free will and also to never sin, to be sinless. And well, he also didn't have time to give a reason why he thought. Right, because he said this was a great mystery why he thought this grace wasn't given to all of us in general. So I wanted Joe to take a shot at this question. What do you think is the reason why we weren't given the same grace?

[C]

Yes, it's a great question because there's a few layers to this. Number one, let's talk about just the broad inequality of grace because this is something many Christians are scandalized to discover. God doesn't give everyone the same amount of divine grace. And this is something we believe as Catholics. I've heard Catholics who don't think that this is true, who think this is like some kind of Calvinist idea or something. No, God gives different divine graces to different people and he even gives different amounts of divine grace to different people. And if you read the New Testament, you'll see very clearly, for instance, different people have different spiritual gifts. So this shouldn't be a surprise. St. Thomas Aquinas points out that this isn't just like, this inequality is not just a result of the fall. Because even amongst the angels in heaven you have like angels and archangels, you've got thrones and dominions and principalities and powers and cherubim and seraphim. Like you have different choirs of angels, different levels. And all of this, we see this as well. Even in pre fallen creation you have non rational like you've got plant life, then you have animal life and then you have humans as the crown of material creation. So you have these levels and these inequalities in the order of creation. And this is true at the material level and at the spiritual level. Well, why is that. And the easiest answer to that seems to be because there's more glory in having a diversity within the body that any sane person will tell you the violin is a better instrument than the tuba. And I will happily receive all of the emails from all the tubists in the world. My email is psytholic.com so the, you know, the violin is. Is clearly superior to the tuba. And yet an orchestra that has both is better than an orchestra that only has violence. That God wants a world where there are not just humans, but also animals. Even though humans are better than animals, it's better to have both. Well, this same principle that we see in material creation, that we see in an orchestra, that we see in heaven, is also true in the order of creation, in the order of grace. Excuse me, but here's the kicker. The gifts we have are meant, as St. Paul tells us, for the upbuilding of the body of Christ. So whatever gifts you've been given, your natural gifts and talents, your supernatural gifts and talents, divine graces and assistance and everything else, those things you were given for the upbuilding of the body, not for your own private enjoyment. And as Luke 12:48 tells us, to whom much is given, much will be expected that at the end of the Parable of the Talents, the guy with five talents, he's definitely gotten more than the guy with one talent, right? But he is also judged for having five talents. And what did he do with five talents? The guy with two talents is only judged for what did he do with two talents. The guy with one talent is only judged for what he did with one talent. So God is perfectly fair. There is an inequality in what he gives, but an equality in the sense that the one who has more is judged for what he did with more. So it's perfectly just, even as God chooses to give more graces to one person than to another. And then finally, like, why does Mary receive all of these graces? Because she is called to give her free consent to God. Trent Horn makes a fascinating argument. If you want to see a shameless popery episode called I Was Wrong. Worse, Trent Horn was right. It talks about how one of the reasons Mary is given all of these graces is so that she can give a complete and free yes to God without even a hint of coercion or force, so that she can become the mother of Jesus. Jesus.

[B]

Augustine. Thank you very much for the call, Joe Heschmeier. Thank you for two very fine hours. I wasn't mad at you for one minute of it. Not one minute of that was I mad at you.

[C]

Happy to hear it.

[B]

Have a happy Thanksgiving.

[C]

Have a happy Thanksgiving to you, too.

[B]

Oh, they took you out of the mix while you were saying happy Thanksgiving. All right, that'll do it for us.

[C]

We'll see it.

[B]

Hey, we got two new shows this week still. See you next time. Catholic Answers live.