
This week Dr. Tim Gray and Dr. Michael Barber continue their study of the Gospel of Matthew by diving into 12:31-50.
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A
Welcome to Form. Now, I'm Tim Gray, president of the Augustine Institute, and Joining me is Dr. Michael Barber, who is a professor of Scripture here at the Augustine Institute. And we're continuing our ongoing Bible study on the Gospel of Matthew. It's really a delight for each of us to have this show on Formed where we can just kind of go leisurely and thoroughly through our beloved gospel by St. Matthew. So last time, we left off in the midst of chapter 12, and we were about verse 30, 31, where we talked about Jesus speaking about the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. And he talks about this as the unforgivable sin. And there's a lot of misunderstanding and anxiety around this. What does Jesus mean by blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? And why is this a red line that was crossed by the Pharisees and his opponents at this moment in the story? So start off, Michael, with the context.
B
So the context is so important because Jesus has been performing exorcisms. And what's happened is Jesus cast out demons. And the Pharisees hear it and say, well, he's only doing this because he's in league with Satan, basically. And as we explained last time, that doesn't make any sense. And Jesus points out, okay, well, if the only reason I can cast out demons is because I'm in league with demons, then how is it that your sons are casting out demons?
A
Right?
B
I mean, are you saying your sons are in league with demons, too? That doesn't. Come on. Obviously, this doesn't work. So then it's in this context that Jesus talks about. Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. What is Jesus talking about here? Well, there's a wonderful treatment of this in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. In Catechism number 1864. 4. Right. We have a treatment of this, and it quotes from this passage. And then we read, there are no limits to the mercy of God. Let's be very clear about this. There are no limits. Some people think, well, have I committed the sin of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit? And now no matter what I do, I'm damned. No, first, there are no limits to the mercy of God. But anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart, the Catechism says, can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss. So what is blasphemy against The Holy Spirit, it's to refuse to acknowledge the activity of God and to repent. Right? And this is what the Pharisees are doing. If you refuse to acknowledge that God is at work here, if you refuse to acknowledge the work of the Spirit, then repentance is impossible because it's only by the work of the Spirit that we can repent. Right.
A
That's such a powerful line from the catechism, Michael, that anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects forgiveness. And so it's really clear here in the catechism for you and I and for all of us, that the way we commit this blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in our context now is by rejecting God's mercy. And you know, the tragedy is most people reject God's mercy because they don't feel like they're worthy of God's mercy.
B
Right.
A
And that's one of, you know, St. Catherine of Siena talks about how the devil works in two ways. One, making you so proud that you think you're great that you don't have any sin, and then the other way is making you feel like you're so sinful you're beyond God's mercy. And those are the two great deceptions of the devil, his two different tactics. And so I think that's one of the things that for people is to think, well, I'm not worthy, I've done this and that, and I'm not any good. And we think that we have to be good enough for God's mercy. But that misses the mercy is bigger than our sin.
B
Right. And if we drill down into this just a little bit more, notice that again, this is. The catechism isn't ripping this out of context. That is the meaning of Jesus statement in context is that the Pharisees refuse to acknowledge that Jesus is doing the work of the Spirit here.
A
Yeah. And I wonder, you know, in the narrative analysis, for me, I think that Jesus is doing these healings and they're saying, all right, you're doing these healings by the power of Beelzebub, by demonic powers. So we know, because Jesus is baptized and the Holy Spirit comes upon him. And of course, in this very chapter, just before this Matthew quotes from the servant song, the first servant song, Isaiah 42, where it says, my beloved, my chosen one, on whom I have put my spirit right, I have placed my spirit upon him. So the idea that God has placed his spirit upon the servant and the servant is Jesus, means that God's Holy Spirit is upon Jesus but the Pharisees see that spirit at work, and they say it's the evil spirit. Well, once you say that Jesus is doing miracles and mighty deeds by an evil spirit, you can't come to faith. No miracle that Jesus can do can bring them to conversion. Because every time Jesus does something miraculous or powerful, they just say, aha. See, he's in league with the devil. So they've, in a sense, they've cut themselves off from the opportunity to have an epistemological insight into the nature of Jesus. Because they've basically said, jesus does mighty deeds. We grant you that, but it's by the devil.
B
That's right. And why is it that they refuse to acknowledge what is working here? Well, one reason that might be suggested by the text is that they enjoy being the leaders. We'll see a passage, you know, we've seen the passage where Jesus says, well, you know, you complain like children in the marketplace.
A
You know, chapter 11. Yeah.
B
And so it seems that there's a certain amount of resentment by some of the Pharisees here on Jesus popularity. This can happen to all of us. We can refuse to acknowledge God's work, maybe in our parishes or in our families, maybe because we want to be the one that God is using. We want to be the ones who are the leaders. We want to be the ones who are the chosen instruments. And sometimes God works through people we don't especially like to sanctify us. And this is a lesson that I think we can learn from this particular story.
A
What do you think, Michael? I'm also. There are so many things coming together in this climactic chapter. In chapter 12, what do you think about the idea that earlier in this chapter, we started with the grain fields and Jesus encounters with the Pharisees there. And one of the things that Jesus says at the end of that story, he says, if you had learned what this means, I desire mercy and not sacrifice. Which is from Hosea6.6, which in chapter nine, at the calling of Levi, Jesus quoted and told the Pharisees who were scandalized that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors. In other words, the Pharisees were scandalized by Jesus mercy and his merciful embrace of those who should be outsiders and outcasts and sinners. And Jesus said, go and learn what this means. I desire mercy and not sacrifice. Well, by the time we get to chapter 12, Jesus says, because you did not learn what this means. In other words, they refused. When God gives you a homework assignment, you gotta do it right. And he gave them A homework assignment. He said, here's your homework assignment. Read this passage in Hosea and go learn what this means. Go learn what this means. I desire mercy and not sacrifice. They didn't learn what it means that God desires mercy. And because they refused to learn about God's mercy, they then attribute the spirit of mercy right to the devil. And so now their hearts have become hardened in this particular way. It's not that Jesus all of a sudden says, you've done something that I can't forgive. They refuse to learn about God's mercy, and therefore they shut the door on forgiveness. I don't know. I think there's a narrative coming, context here that really opens up what's happening.
B
No doubt. Now Jesus goes on and he says, whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Of course, that relates to the sin of blasphemy. Refusing to allow the possibility that the Holy Spirit is at work. Right. Either in this age or in the age to come. Now, this is a passage that many people have looked at as possibly presenting the idea of purgatory, right? That there is forgiveness in this age, but then there's also forgiveness in the age to come and life to come. So that if you haven't been purified in this life, at least it seems by Jesus words, there's a possibility of forgiveness.
A
That's a great way.
B
I like that.
A
That's a great way to see how that purgatory would fit in there.
B
It's interesting, right?
A
Being purged from sins.
B
Yes, exactly. All right. And then we go on in verse 33, and it's all related, you know, in our Bibles here we have these beautiful RSV Bible. I'm not esv, Catholic edition Bible.
A
No. The new ESV I'm used to.
B
And I have my ribbon in the right place. It's just nice.
A
Well, that's the. I love having both these ribbons. And this is the great thing about the Augustine 2 Bibles that you can get. So people will ask. And so I'll just say, you can get this at Catholic Market.
B
That's right.
A
So at Catholic Market, you can get our new Bibles. We have four different colors. So today I grabbed the red color. You have the blue one.
B
I like the blue one the best.
A
And that is spectacular. And we also have a beautiful brown and black leather, as well as a couple of beautiful hardcover and paperback. So beautiful Bibles for. And again, the reason why I like to use the esvce, the English Standard Version, Catholic edition, is that it's, I think, the closest translation in the English to the Hebrew and Greek. So it's the best study Bible for me.
B
Right. And it's been approved by the Vatican for liturgical use. It received the imprimatur from the bishops in India first and then has been approved by Rome for lectionary use and that kind of thing. And it's being used in English speaking countries around the world. I love this Bible. One thing, one little thing. It has these little subheadings which are really helpful if you're just looking at the page and you want to know where the stories are so you can find them. The problem with that, though, can sometimes be that it separates stories and it causes you to read different aspects of a chapter in isolation.
A
Yeah. To break up these little antidotes, these little stories. And you don't keep a running narrative. And that's so important for everybody to.
B
So you want to see them as summaries. You want to summarize what's happening so you can follow the text, but you don't want to see them as divisions. Right. That would be the problem. And so Jesus goes on and says, either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. Now, in context, what does that mean? The fruit of repentance. Right. The fruit of acknowledging the work of the Spirit. Here, John. This is an echo of John the Baptist preaching. You go back to Matthew chapter 3, and Jesus words here sound just like the words John the Baptist uses. And there he talks about the need of bearing fruits of repentance. And then Jesus says, you brood of vipers, which is again, exactly what John the Baptist says. How can you speak good when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. The good person out of good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment, people will give account for every careless word they speak. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words, you will be condemned. So in context, this is really significant.
A
That's intense and it makes me tremble. I mean, we have to give an accounting for every word we speak. And that's powerful. Powerful.
B
It really is. And, you know, as a Catholic, I grew up learning things like reverence for the Eucharist. You would never go and receive communion and stick it in your pocket or something like that. You have to be careful when you receive Holy Communion. But what we don't often think about is that kind of carefulness that we need when it comes to our speech, right?
A
Especially when speaking about others.
B
Especially when speaking about others. It's certainly the case, for example, that in the Church today, we know of various clerical scandals, abuses, those kinds of things, even bishops and cardinals. But we have to be on guard about the way we speak about these things. We can't utter careless words. And oftentimes, you know, we forget. While we need to show reverence for the Eucharist, we also need to show reverence, even when they're unworthy of it, for the office of the pope, the office of the bishop. This goes back very early, the very early church Ignatius of Antioch had in his letter to the Smyrnians, not the Smurfs. That's different in the Smyrnians, he says, flee from divisions as the beginnings of evils. You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and follow the counsel of presbyters as you would the apostles, respect the deacons as the King. Commandment of God. Let no one do anything that has to do with the Church without the bishop. Only that Eucharist which is under the authority of the bishop or whomever he designates is to be considered valid. Wherever the bishop appears, let the congregation be just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. That's the first appearance of the term Catholic Church in history. But. But here we see in our parishes, in church, we can often fall into a sort of gossip, right? About scandals, about challenges, whatever. At all times, we have to speak with caution, and we have to speak with careful attentiveness because Jesus warns us on the day of judgment, people who give account for every careless word they speak. Yeah, but this guy had it coming. That's what Jesus says, right? We gotta be very careful about the way we speak.
A
I love the image. And to take into your meditation, your prayer time, the image that Jesus gives here is so powerful, right? Because he talks about a tree with fruit. And so the analogy here then is every word we speak is like the fruit or the tree. And so every word we speak about others, is it a good fruit or is it a fruit with a worm in it? We say something ugly, you know, something bad that's, you know, got worms or bugs or mites or fungus or something disgusting. You know, you see that, right? And what we want to do is just have discernment. As I look at my day, you know, everything I said about to anybody and about anybody in the last 24 hours last week. Was it all good fruit or is there some bitter fruit? And of course, Jesus is saying, look out of the abundance of the heart. The mouth speaks, right. That, you know, if the tree is good, the fruit will be good. If the tree is bad, the fruit's going to be bad. And we have to really do is cultivate in our hearts good fruit all the time and a good heart.
B
Right? And we can know if we are a good tree or a bad tree by the kind of way we speak and the kind of way we speak about other people. So it's not just enough to say, well, you know, I'm going to think these things, but I'm not going to. You know, you got to be really cautious. Because what Jesus wants is a transformation of our heart. That's the core of it there.
A
And there's a great principle here, too, of discernment. You know, you can, you know, by what people's words and their actions, you get. You get a revelation of their heart.
B
That's right.
A
And so you know, who you can trust and who you can't trust.
B
That's right. That's right. That's great. All right.
A
So then I love how the Pharisees then come back. Jesus says some hard things here, and they come back, they say, then some of the scribes and the Pharisees answered him, which I think is important. It says answered him. So to this idea, good fruit, bad fruit. A tree is known by its fruit. They say, okay, teacher, we wish to see a sign from you. So they're like, show us a sign. Show us some fruit. And so they're being aggressive here, and they're asking not just for a good teaching, wise word, but they're now asking for, give us a miracle. Give us a miracle.
B
That's really what it means here. Yes. Sign here in particular, which is ironic because the whole context was Jesus did perform an exorcism, right. And he performed a remarkable exorcism. And in fact, you know, they bring him to Jesus and he casts out the demon. And the people in the crowd say, can this be the son of David? Because the way Jesus see in Jesus Day. We know this from Josephus and other ancient writings. The way they would cast a demon seems to have been by using roots and by using certain formulas that had been passed down. Jesus doesn't. We don't have any evidence Jesus is using roots here, that he knows some sort of, you know, formula. No, Jesus is casting out demons on his own authority. Right. That's a pretty remarkable sign. So for the Pharisees to come and say, okay, let's see, a sign. Wait a minute, I just did one. And you attributed it to Satan.
A
Right.
B
He can't win for losing here. And he says an evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
A
Wow. I mean, an evil and adulterous generation. I think here's another metaphor, like the tree. An adulterous generation. This means an unfaithful generation. I think he's saying something about their hearts. And if. If they're not faithful to their own marriages, to their own spouse, they're not going to be faithful to anyone. Right. And so, but it's that. What does he mean by this idea of an unfaithful generation that therefore won't be given a sign except for the sign of Jonah?
B
Well, I think the Jonah line is crucial, Right, because what Jesus is going to do is he's contrasting his this generation. And when he means this generation, obviously he doesn't mean every single person in the crowd. The disciples are not part of this evil and adulterous generation. Right. But it's interesting. He says, just as Jonah was in the. Just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great sea creature, so will the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah. Behold, something greater than Jonah is here. Now, this allusion to Jonah is classic. It's in the catacombs. Some of the most early Christian iconography is Jesus as Jonah. But I think a lot of times we go immediately to that image of Jesus coming out of the, you know, out of the tomb on the third day. And that being related to the fish. But we forget about the preaching of the men of the preaching to the men of Nineveh, because what happened. Jesus is linking the sign of Jonah with the idea of the conversion of Nineveh. Nineveh was the capital city of Assyria, which was the most savage of enemies for any nation in the ancient near east to have to confront. I mean, they wouldn't just defeat you. They exhumed the bodies from your cemeteries, they cut down all the trees, they salted your fields, all the rest.
A
They were mean.
B
They were mean. Yeah. And, you know, in the Old Testament, Jonah hears, oh, 40 days and nineveh is going to fall. Okay, well, I'll be there in 41 days, right? He wants them to fall and yet he goes. And what happens is miraculous.
A
They repent and then God has mercy. And this is the story that God can have mercy. And it's what they didn't. Go and learn right from Hosea 6, 6, go learn what this means. I desire mercy, not sacrifice.
B
And they're Gentiles. So here you have an account of Gentiles coming and repenting and at the preaching of the messenger of the God of Israel. Now this is going to be really important because what's going to happen is at the end of the Gospel, Jesus is going to send the disciples out to the nation. So what is the sign of Jonah? You know, if you go back to the church fathers, they'll point out that one of the best pieces of evidence for the resurrection is what, the Shroud of Turin? No, no one was there to see Jesus rise on Easter Sunday. We don't. There was an eyewitness to that event. But Jesus links the sign of Jonah to the conversion of the Gentiles. And so, you know, we have quotations from the fathers of the Church. Like Ambrose is one of my favorite. I think we have a picture of the quotation where Ambrose says, the mystery of the Church is clearly expressed in Jesus prophecy of the sign of Jonah. Her flocks stretch from the boundaries of the whole world. They stretched to Nineveh through penitence. The mystery is now fulfilled in truth. Is Jesus Christ truly the Messiah? Did Jesus really raise? Did he really rise from the dead? Well, according to Ambrose, Eusebius, others, the best piece of evidence for this is look around the world. They're all worshiping the God of Israel, Right?
A
And for the church fathers, and I know this is so true in the catacombs. The reason why Jonah is such a popular figure in the Roman catacombs is that Rome was the enemy of Israel. It was the capital of the enemy of Israel in the time of Jesus and Peter. And just as Nineveh was the capital of the enemy of Israel and they repented at the preaching of Jonah, so now at Jesus proclamation and then Peter who goes to Rome. And there's a connection with Peter and Jonah, but that's another story.
B
We'll get there.
A
But, but yes, that's right, we will get there eventually. That's right, because we're walking through Matthew's Gospel. When we get to Matthew 16:Pro and next year, exactly at the pace we're going. But yeah, so this idea that Rome converts, Rome being the capital of the enemy of Israel, Just as Nineveh is the capital of the enemy of Israel is the sign that validates the word of God.
B
And.
A
And it validates that this is the sign Jesus is going to perform.
B
If you could go back In a flying DeLorean, back in time to the time of ancient Israel, and you told people, look, one day all over the world, people will be worshiping the God of one of these nations. People would have, okay, maybe the Babylonians is a massive empire, or the Egyptians, or maybe the Assyrians. No, it's going to be the God of Israel. This little tiny nation that nobody really pays much of attention to, their God is going to be acknowledged by all the Gentiles. I mean, this is remarkable. I had a guy working out at our house on something, and I was talking about Christianity, and he said, yeah, I'm exploring a lot of the world religions. And I said, well, you know, here's the interesting thing. You know, in the ancient world, there were these prophecies that all the nations would someday come to worship the God of Israel. Now, do you know any Hittites? Do you know any Philistines? Do you know any of their gods? No, nobody as far as I know. People aren't worshiping the gods of Egypt anymore. Hathor, APIs, they're all gone. But you know who they're still worshiping? The God of Israel, Isaac and Jacob. And Jesus announces that will happen when he rises from the dead. That is truly remarkable.
A
It really is. No, it's one of those irrefutable signs. Yes, that St. Augustine at his time said, look, you know the idea in the prophecy of Daniel that all the idols would be taken away from the nations and there would be the worship of the one true God. Well, Augustine says that's happened.
B
That's right.
A
Rome has converted and all the gods of Rome, no one are cast down. And there's just Jesus.
B
Yeah, here we are in Colorado, sitting here, two goyim, two gentiles praising the God of Israel. This would have been unthinkable back in the ancient world.
A
It's an amazing sign of proof. It should really build your faith. It should really build everybody's faith. All right? And then he goes on, and the Queen of the south will rise up in judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon. And behold, something greater than Solomon is here. That's right. So of course, Solomon is known as. We talked about Solomon already with exorcisms, and so we had exorcism But Solomon is also known as being the wise man who builds the temple. And so there's an illusion that we're going to see later on, maybe with the fulfillment of Jesus.
B
And also there's a famous book in the Old Testament attributed to Solomon called Proverbs, which in the Greek is called parables. And what is Jesus going to do in the next chapter?
A
Teach on parables.
B
Teach through parables?
A
Yeah. That's so powerful. Do you want to talk about the return of the unclean spirit before we do?
B
We have time.
A
We've got two minutes.
B
Okay. Well, all right. So Jesus talks about how an unclean spirit goes out of a person. It passes through waterless places seeking rest and finds none. And then it says, I'm going to go back to that house. And he finds it all swept and clean. And so he goes back and he brings seven other spirits more evil than itself. And they enter and they dwell there. And the last state of the person is worse than the first. And so here we have. And then Jesus says, that's the way it will be with this generation. There's so much we could say about this. St. Augustine talks about how what happens is when a person experiences the graces conversion and then turns away from it, the demons come back and they imitate the virtues of faith. But the person's only pretending anyway. He sees the seven demons. He says, these are the three theological virtues of faith, hope and reason. I mean, faith, hope and charity. And then the four cardinal virtues of prudence, temperance, justice and fortitude. These are only put on in a counterfeit way by people who turn away from the Gospel.
A
That's a great reflection. I also think of earlier in this chapter, Jesus is casting out demons.
B
Yes, of course.
A
So he's exercising, he's cleaning the house. But if they don't obey him and repent, then the demons will come back with a vengeance.
B
Very good.
A
Yep. Yeah, so we're set up now. You know, the last thing is that happens in chapter 12 is, you know, they say to Jesus, your family's outside. And he says, who is my mother and who are my brothers? And spreading out his hands to towards his disciples, said, here is my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother and my sister and my mother. And so here Jesus is saying, look, family ties aren't the most isn't what brings you closest to me doing the will of my Father. That's what brings you closest to me. And of course we know Mary does the will of the Father perfectly. So she's still very close to Jesus. So this doesn't denigrate Mary at all. It actually shows why she's so elevated in our Catholic tradition and faith. And, you know, and then we're going to dive into chapter 13. And so, you know, I would just say read all of chapter 13 for next time as your little homework assignment. And it's going to be seven parables. And the topic will be the Basilevo tutevu, the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven Oranu in Matthew. I keep forgetting Matthew now. So the kingdom of heaven. And you'll learn about at the end, a scribe trained for the kingdom of heaven. We'll talk about that and how that relates to Matthew. And we just want to thank everybody for joining us in this Bible study. In our Bible study. Thank you. And a special thanks to everybody who supports us, especially all those of you who are in our mission circle. We're grateful for your support. Your little gift means a lot to us and helps us have this ministry. God bless you.
Podcast: Catholic Bible Study
Host: Augustine Institute (Dr. Tim Gray and Dr. Michael Barber)
Episode Date: November 23, 2025
In this engaging Bible study episode, Dr. Tim Gray and Dr. Michael Barber of the Augustine Institute delve into Matthew 12:31-50, focusing on the weighty subjects of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the call to repentance, the sign of Jonah, and what it truly means to be part of Jesus’ family. The scholars provide nuanced Catholic perspectives, seamlessly weaving Scriptural exegesis, Catechetical teaching, and practical spiritual application, making this episode accessible, thought-provoking, and deeply pastoral.
Context:
Jesus performs exorcisms, which the Pharisees attribute to demonic power rather than the Holy Spirit.
Catechism Explanation:
The blasphemy against the Spirit is a “deliberate refusal to accept God’s mercy by repenting” (Catechism 1864).
Pastoral Clarity:
There are no limits to God’s mercy if one repents. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not an unforgivable act, but a continual, hardened rejection of the possibility of mercy.
“Anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting rejects forgiveness.”
— Dr. Barber quoting the Catechism [03:07]
Psychology of Rejection:
The hosts highlight two tactics of the devil, per St. Catherine of Siena: either pride (no need for mercy) or despair (unworthy of mercy). The true tragedy is closing oneself off to God's inexhaustible mercy.
“The tragedy is most people reject God’s mercy because they don’t feel like they’re worthy of God’s mercy.”
— Dr. Gray [03:37]
Story Arcs:
Dr. Gray connects Jesus’ call to mercy (Hosea 6:6: “I desire mercy, not sacrifice”) through earlier Matthean episodes, showing how the Pharisees’ refusal to learn about mercy ultimately hardens them and leads to the fatal misattribution of Jesus’s work.
“When God gives you a homework assignment, you gotta do it right...They refused to learn about God’s mercy, and therefore they shut the door on forgiveness.”
— Dr. Gray [07:49]
Forgiveness ‘in this age or the age to come’:
The discussion touches on the Catholic interpretation of this passage as a possible biblical hint at purgatory.
“If you haven’t been purified in this life, at least it seems by Jesus’ words, there’s a possibility of forgiveness.”
— Dr. Barber [09:35]
Integration of Text:
The hosts warn against isolating Scriptural stories. Jesus’s teaching about “making the tree good and its fruit good” is applied directly to faith, repentance, and especially our words.
Judgement for Words:
Jesus’s warning that “on the day of judgment, people will give account for every careless word they speak” is unpacked with gravity and humility.
“That makes me tremble. I mean, we have to give an account for every word we speak.”
— Dr. Gray [12:46]
Spiritual Application:
Parallels are drawn with reverence for the Eucharist – Catholics must cultivate equal reverence for their speech, especially about Church leaders despite scandals.
“While we need to show reverence for the Eucharist, we also need to show reverence, even when they’re unworthy...for the office of the pope, the office of the bishop.”
— Dr. Barber [13:22]
“Every word we speak is like the fruit or the tree...is it a good fruit or is it a fruit with a worm in it?”
— Dr. Gray [15:32]
Request for a Sign:
The Pharisees demand a sign, despite having just witnessed exorcisms. Jesus refuses, stating only the “sign of Jonah” will be given.
Meaning of the Sign:
The sign is twofold:
“The best piece of evidence for [the Resurrection] is look around the world; they’re all worshiping the God of Israel.”
— Dr. Barber [22:50]
“Just as Nineveh was the capital of the enemy of Israel and they repented at the preaching of Jonah, so now at Jesus’ proclamation...Rome converts.”
— Dr. Gray [23:49]
“If you could go back in a flying DeLorean...and you told people that one day, all over the world, people would be worshipping the God of one of these nations...it’s going to be the God of Israel...This is remarkable.”
— Dr. Barber [24:20]
Jesus Greater than Solomon:
Jesus invokes both wisdom (Solomon) and exorcistic power, setting up the coming parables; He is greater than Jonah and Solomon.
Parabolic Wisdom:
The conversation teases the transition to Matthew 13, where Jesus will teach in parables, echoing Solomon’s teaching in Proverbs (Greek: Parables).
“And what is Jesus going to do in the next chapter? Teach through parables.”
— Dr. Barber [26:56]
Spiritual Peril:
Jesus describes how an unclean spirit may return with greater force if a person (or generation) fails to fill the “swept and clean” house with genuine faith.
“When a person experiences the graces [of] conversion and then turns away from it, the demons come back and they imitate the virtues of faith...but the person’s only pretending anyway.”
— Dr. Barber referencing St. Augustine’s reading [28:08]
“If they don’t obey him and repent, then the demons will come back with a vengeance.”
— Dr. Gray [28:13]
Spiritual Kinship:
Jesus teaches that true kinship is defined by doing God’s will, not just blood relation.
“Whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and my sister and my mother.”
— Dr. Gray citing Jesus [28:37]
Mary as the Model Disciple:
This passage is not a denigration of Mary but highlights her exalted role as the exemplar of obedience to God’s will.
On God’s Mercy:
“There are no limits to the mercy of God. Let’s be very clear about this.”
— Dr. Barber [01:53]
On the Devil’s Strategies:
“The devil...works in two ways. One, making you so proud you think you’re great...the other way is making you feel like you’re so sinful you’re beyond God’s mercy.”
— Dr. Gray [03:38]
On Good and Bad Fruit:
“Every word we speak about others, is it a good fruit or is it a fruit with a worm in it?”
— Dr. Gray [15:32]
On the Universal Worship of the God of Israel:
“People aren’t worshiping the gods of Egypt anymore...but you know who they’re still worshipping? The God of Israel.”
— Dr. Barber [25:10]
This episode offers a masterclass in reading the Gospels as a living narrative, emphasizing the call to repentance, humility, and right speech. Listeners come away with a deeper appreciation for the mercy of God, the reality of spiritual combat, and the surprising, world-changing impact of Christ’s resurrection. The scholars invite all to reflect on the fruits of their lives and to join in the next installment by reading Matthew 13.
Suggested Homework (from hosts):
Read all of Matthew 13 ("the seven parables of the Kingdom"), and consider how you can bear good fruit in word and deed.