Catholic Bible Study (Augustine Institute)

Episode: Matthew 15:10-39

Date: November 28, 2025
Host: Dr. Tim Gray
Guest: Dr. Michael Barber

Episode Overview

This Bible Study episode offers an in-depth discussion of Matthew 15:10-39, guided by Dr. Tim Gray and Dr. Michael Barber of the Augustine Institute. The conversation unpacks the differences between "tradition" (capital T) and church traditions (lowercase t), explores Jesus' teachings about purity and the heart, delves into the faith of the Canaanite woman, and analyzes the second miracle of the multiplication of loaves and fishes. Throughout, the scholars highlight spiritual, theological, and practical lessons for Catholic life today.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tradition vs. tradition in the Catholic Church

[00:00–04:23]

• Big T vs. Small t traditions:
  • Big T (Tradition): Doctrines handed down from Jesus through the apostles—unchangeable foundations of faith.
  • Small t (traditions): Liturgical or disciplinary customs that may evolve over time.
• Quote (Tim Gray, 03:19):

  "When something is a moral doctrine, when something is a capital T, tradition, that's not changeable ... no one has the authority to change it because no one's got an authority that's a pay grade above Jesus."

• Discussion touches on historical changes (e.g., the creed post-Council of Nicaea) and contemporary misunderstandings, like those in Germany’s synodal process.

2. Ritual Purity: What Defiles a Person?

[04:23–10:18]

• Jesus challenges the Pharisaic focus on external purity laws and asserts moral defilement comes from within—the heart, not external observance.
• The Pharisees’ overemphasis on external law was a response to Roman occupation—believing strict Torah observance would restore Israel.
• Quote (Tim Gray, 08:50):

  "Jesus gets to the heart of what really matters. And it's what comes out of our mouth, not the food we put in, that defiles us. ... The words we speak can defile us. Wow, what a powerful idea."

• The discussion connects this theme to Moses and Deuteronomy's teaching about the circumcision of the heart.

3. The Heart’s Primacy in Moral Life

[10:18–12:47]

• Old Testament background from Deuteronomy 10 and 30: The inward transformation (heart circumcision) is ultimately God’s work.
• Quote (Michael Barber, 10:23):

  "Having a circumcised heart is something only God can give ... the promise of a new covenant is when God will write his law on the hearts of his people."

• Emphasis that genuine moral purity is a matter of the heart—not ritual.

4. Jesus and the Canaanite Woman: Persistence, Humility, and Universal Mission

[12:47–17:53]

• Unique in Matthew: The woman is called "Canaanite," marking her as a Gentile outsider. She addresses Jesus as "Lord, son of David."
• Jesus’ initial silent and tough response—"It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs"—reflects cultural biases.
• The woman’s remarkable humility and persistence—accepting her outsider status, yet still pleading for mercy.
• Quote (Tim Gray, 15:12):

  "She accepts that Jesus is called just to the children of Israel ... but then, notice what she does. She's going to still beg ... her humility is heroic."

• Jesus commends her faith and heals her daughter (a foreshadowing of the future Gentile mission).

5. The Feeding of the Four Thousand: Symbolism and Eucharistic Foreshadowing

[17:53–23:22]

• Second miracle of loaves and fishes in a region with many Gentiles (Decapolis, Philip’s territory), compared to the earlier feeding (Jewish setting, five loaves, twelve baskets).
• Discussion of the symbolic numbers:
  • Five loaves/Twelve baskets = Torah and tribes (Jewish focus)
  • Seven loaves/Seven baskets/Four thousand = Universal significance (Gentiles)
• The miracle’s structure (taking bread, giving thanks—"eucharistane" in the Greek) foreshadows the Last Supper and Eucharist.
• Quote (Michael Barber, 19:31):

  "The Greek word there is eucharistos, he gives Eucharist. ... echoes of that Last Supper narrative."

• Emphasis that Jesus’ concern includes both spiritual and physical needs.

6. Jesus as New Moses and the New Exodus

[24:57–25:38]

• Matthew intentionally frames Jesus as the new Moses:
  • Feeds people in wilderness (manna parallel)
  • Performs the miracle himself, not just as a mediator
• Quote (Michael Barber, 25:38):

  "He’s a new Moses ... yet Jesus is beyond Moses ... In this case, Jesus himself performs the miracle."

7. Takeaways for Christian Life: Compassion and Feeding the Hungry

[25:38–27:38]

• The miracle shows Jesus’ compassion for physical needs as central to his ministry.
• The Church’s credibility is tied to how it cares for the hungry and poor—imitating Christ’s own concern.
• Quote (Michael Barber, 26:24):

  "Are we willing to send people away hungry? If we are, there's a problem, both ... physically and spiritually. We need to have a heart like Jesus."

• Stories of caring for the needy serve as modern examples for listeners.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On doctrine and unchangeable tradition:
  "No one has the authority to change it because no one's got an authority that's a pay grade above Jesus." (Tim Gray, 03:19)
• On moral purity:
  "It's what comes out of your heart that is what is most important here." (Michael Barber, 09:24)
• Canaanite woman as model of faith and humility:
  "Her humility is heroic." (Tim Gray, 15:12)
• Eucharistic symbolism and concern for needs:
  "He gives Eucharist. ... echoes of that Last Supper narrative." (Michael Barber, 19:31) "Are we willing to send people away hungry? If we are, there's a problem ... We need to have a heart like Jesus." (Michael Barber, 26:24)

Segment Timestamps

• Tradition vs. tradition: 00:00–04:23
• Ritual purity and Pharisees: 04:23–10:18
• Circumcision of the heart: 10:18–12:47
• Canaanite woman encounter: 12:47–17:53
• Feeding of the Four Thousand: 17:53–23:22
• Symbolism, new Moses, compassion: 23:22–27:38

Final Reflections

Dr. Gray and Dr. Barber thoughtfully bring out the challenging, transformative message of Matthew 15. They remind the audience that true holiness is found not only in orthodoxy but in living faith by loving God, humility, compassion for the marginalized, and a deep care for physical and spiritual needs.

Listeners are encouraged to emulate Jesus’ concern for the hungry and reflect on how Church teaching—and their own lives—are grounded in the heart’s openness to God and genuine service to others.