A (4:04)

I just wanted to say that's a beautiful point. And it's part of why discipleship is never solo. Right. Jesus talks about where two or more gathered in my name. He expects us to be in community and in community. You know, a great mentor and professor of mine at Duke used to say that our sin is so close to us that we can't see it. It's kind of like someone just told me.

B (4:26)

Right.

A (4:26)

A few minutes ago, your tie is not straight. You know, I'm wearing the tie. It's around my neck, but I couldn't see it.

B (4:31)

Right, right.

A (4:32)

But that's oftentimes our sins are usually our strengths pushed too far, and we can't see it sometimes clearly, but those around us can. And that's why it's important to be part of a community of fellowship and friendship and trust. But it takes trust in order to get accountability. Right. People don't invite accountability without trust. And, and that's why it's so important to build a community of trust and vulnerability so that we can grow and learn. And so, Mike, why don't you jump dive us into verse 15 and following here. How does Jesus introduce this topic?

B (5:04)

So you see, if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you. That every charge may be established by, by the evidence of two or three witnesses. So can we just stop there and talk briefly about what we've seen in these passages? So first thing I like to highlight is that in the community we are brothers. If your brother sins against you, this is something that we can easily lose sight of in the hurt and in the anger that results from sin and from offense is that we are all united in Christ. And one of the key themes in the Gospel of Matthew is this idea of the family of God. It's interesting, I think I may have pointed this out before. In Matthew 11, Jesus prays to the Father and he speaks to the Father as his Father. Later on in the garden of Gethsemane, we'll see the same thing. My father, right? But when he teaches us to pray, he says, pray our Father. So we don't actually pray exactly like Jesus does, because when he prays, he prays my Father. We pray our Father. And the reason for that is the only reason that I have a relationship with the Father as a son is because I'm united to Christ. It's only through union, communion, that I can say our Father. And that communion comes along with you and with everybody else who is a part of the family of God. And so Jesus wants us to remember that the very first thing he says when he talks about your brother sinning against you is that it's your brother, right? So don't treat them as if you're your enemy.

A (6:56)

One of the things that strikes me about that is when you think about this language of fraternity that just saturates the New Testament and the Gospel of Matthew is our postmodern culture is the opposite of that, because you have the autonomous individual. So I see you as my brother in Christ. And that creates a bond and a relationship and a co responsibility. Whereas if I just see you as an autonomous individual, and I'm an autonomous individual, I don't care if you're sinning, I don't care what you're doing, it doesn't affect me. But in A family, what family members do affects everybody in the family. And you look at it in a different way. And that's the first perspective. The other thing that jumps out to me, speaking of the language of this text, is the idea of listen. It's repeated over and over and over again. If he doesn't listen to you, grab somebody else and the two of you go. And if he listens to you, you've gained a brother. If not, then you go to the church and maybe they'll listen to the church. But this language of listen, it seems that it's one of the key attributes of an authentic disciple of Jesus Christ is the ability to listen.

B (7:59)

I love it. So good. That is so right. That is so right. And notice, go to your brother alone. So when your brother sins against you, you don't immediately go and tweet about it. You don't immediately go and broadcast to the world that somebody has committed a sin. And in fact, in Catholic tradition, people don't often know this. To speak of the fault of another without good reason is actually a sin. It's actually sinful. It's called detraction. Right. Even if it's true, that doesn't give you the right to talk about it with other people. You only talk about another person's fault if it's absolutely imperative. So, for example, let's say you're hiring someone, right? Or let's say as a parent, I need to hire a babysitter for my family, Right. Whether it's a professional situation, whether it's someone who's going to be watching over my kids. Rarely do we ever have a babysitter. Very rarely. But if I were to do that, I would need to know that the person that is going to have that responsibility is trustworthy. In that instance, if you knew that I was about to hire somebody, maybe I shouldn't be hiring you, would be justified to come and tell me in private. Of course, discreetly. You might not want to hire this person because X, Y and Z. Right. The last three babysitter jobs, they had their house burned down. The guy just doesn't seem all that responsible. Or the young gal. So we want to recognize Jesus teaching here is applicable to us today. And sadly, it is one of the teachings of Jesus that we neglect the most. If your brother sins against you, you go directly to your brother. That's Jesus teaching.

A (9:59)

That's so powerful and yet challenging. But if we live it, it leads to healthier relationships. I mean, in the end, totally.

B (10:05)

Totally.

A (10:06)

I think people are afraid that if they Challenge a brother, it's going to lead to falling out of the relationship. And that's always a potential risk. But I think the bigger thing, especially if you do this with a loan, even if they disagree with you, the fact that you went to them and you had the respect for them to approach them and be honest with them, I don't think you lose. It's very hard to lose in that situation. It's beautiful what the Lord said up there.

B (10:34)

That is right. But now it's not just a social. It's not just an informal situation here, because then Jesus escalates it if he does not listen. Take one or two others along with you. That every charge may be established by the evidence. Now we're getting juridical language that's really interesting legal language, that what they say may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. That's the standard that we see in Deuteronomy, chapter 19:15, right? Where this is the standard for a legal case. You have to have two or three witnesses. This is the origin of. Of what we call canon law. Because the Church is, yes, a family, but because we are a civil civic organization. Because there are, you know, rights that Catholics have to very, you know, for example, the sacraments to particular kinds of godfathers. Right? We have a right to a godfather who is practicing the faith. Right. That kind of thing. Because there are responsibilities associated with the Church. There is, as Jesus indicates here, a sort of juridical or legal authority in the Church. And so we recognize the Church not just as mother, not just as society, not just as a social club, but as a kind of model for what human society should look like. And this is also something that's really important for us to think about. You know, I typically fall into the trap of relegating civil matters to sort of a lesser realm. You know, I'll tell my friends. Well, it doesn't really matter what the laws say. You know, it doesn't. We're not gonna. We're not gonna convert the world in the voting booth. We're gonna. We're gonna find salvation in the confessional booth. You know, I always tell that to people. And that's true. That is true. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that there isn't a civic dimension, a political dimension. I mean, politics broadly construed as in the right ordering of human relationships. There is a political dimension to humanity, to anthropology, and the Church is a model of what that's to look like. And so in the Church, we have canon law. That makes sure that people's rights and responsibilities are. Are properly governed and addressed.

A (13:09)

Michael, after this, Jesus goes on to talk about, you know, I don't know if you want to talk about verse 18. And he's going to.

B (13:21)

Well, let me just. 17 is really important, right? Because there we have the word ekklesia, right? If he refuses to listen, tell it to the ekklesia or, you know, the church is the way we translate it. And if he fails to listen, if he refuses to listen. I love the next line, even to the church. So listen to what Jesus is saying there. God forbid anyone would ever refuse to listen to the church. Wow. Jesus has a very high view of the church here. Let him be to you as a gentile or tax collector. Now, what does that mean? Well, it means shun them. Never talk to them again. You know, stay away from me, you sinner. I don't want to have anything to do with you. You know, in actual. In some sects like the Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons, they actually do do this. And people are very concerned to oppose their, you know, religious doctrines because they will be literally cut off from their families. But what Jesus is talking about isn't exactly that, because how does Jesus deal with the tax collectors? Treat them like you treat a tax collector. We know what Jesus does with tax collectors. He has dinner at their houses on regular occasion. Right. And so those who do not listen to the church are not our enemies. Those who do not listen to the church are not somehow our opponents. This is so important. I see it all the time, Tim. And especially in. In areas where people talk about, for example, male spirituality, masculine spirituality, see it all the time. That, you know, a masculine spirituality conference. I get invited to speak, and they want me to speak about things like, you know, culture wars, you know, all these people in our society, Hollywood or whatever it is, who are our enemies or politicians or certain kinds of politicians or certain kinds of people they think in the church are the problem or even spiritual warfare. And it's all the devil's fault, really. Our number one enemy is myself. That's the way the Catholic Church has always understood it. You look in the catechism where it talks about the battle of prayer. Prayer is a battle against myself and the evil one. What we need to recognize here is if we are to be truly disciples of Jesus, we never cut anyone off. Yes. We may recognize this is not a fellow disciple. We may recognize this isn't someone who I can depend on for counsel. This maybe not be somebody who I can look to, to help guide me in making tough decisions. But at the same time, I love them and I care for them. And if Jesus goes out to eat with tax collectors, then what does that mean for me, you know, who am I called to reach out to? And, you know, I think that's really an important lesson.

A (16:17)

Yeah. And then, you know, then we get to verse 18 and it talks about binding and loosing. So the Church has an authority to adjudicate serious cases. And so, for example, the Church could, you know, it stripped, you know, McCarrick of his, you know, being a cardinal and his status as a priest and stripped him of his priestly rights. So the Church has that authority to bind and loose in that sense. And it can also excommunicate as well, you know, so if it wanted to say that somebody was living publicly as a sinner, so say you had a Catholic politician who publicly supports abortion, which is against the Church's teaching, you know, the Church could excommunicate that person. And so you get that power of binding and loosing that we saw Jesus give to Peter in chapter 16, and then we move to the positives. Anything else on Biden and Lucian, you want to add?

B (17:11)

I just want to say that Jesus gives that authority to Peter in Matthew 16. And Origen Long ago made a fascinating observation that very few people have followed up on. And that is in Matthew 16 Jesus says to Peter, whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in the heavens, plural. In Matthew 18 he says, Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, but it's not in the plural. And so there's a different. There's a distinct papal authority, there's a distinct authority that's given to Peter that even though the other successors of the apostles, even though the other apostles and their successors, the bishops, have also the authority to bind and loose, there is still a primacy in Peter's authority there. And I think that is just such a fascinating little detail Origen picks up on because of course he reads Greek. Right. And he notices that. Yeah. So let's go to 19. 19 is a great verse. Again, I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father who is in heaven now. And then Jesus goes on to say, wherever two or three, let's see, what does he say? For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them. So notice Jesus is there among us when we pray. So it's so important that Jesus is with the Church as the Church prays. And as the church prays communally, especially in the church's liturgy, Christ is present with us. And this is a really important idea, that the church is united in Christ's presence. And what makes the church the church is not just that we have the same doctrines. Right. We're not just the Catholic doctrine club. We're not just Catholics because we all believe in the same thing. And all those other people have their own churches and they have their own doctrines. John Seahorn is so good on this professor at the AI he always points out that the church is not a dogma club. Right. The reason we're the church is because we have communion. Right. It's more than just believing these ideas. It's entering into them. And so that's what Jesus is really getting at there.

A (19:36)

Yeah, I was just gonna say, well, of course. And the significance of In My Name, you know, from a Jewish perspective, that kind of prophesied what you were saying in terms of communion. Right. So I think of there's a whole theology of the Name in the Old Testament, but in, you know, Moses is given the name of God at the beginning of Exodus. And, you know, Abraham and Jacob, they knew God by other titles, but Moses knows them by a different name. And when Moses calls upon that name, you get miracles happening for the first time at the hands of human agents because they're, you know, Moses is a human agent, but he's invoking the divine name. And that leads to the plagues and to all these miracles and to the manna and the water from the rock. And so Moses has this power of the name. And of course, the idea in the ancient world is to give an analogy for people the name of a God. So, for example, the Egyptians believe if you had the secret name, the nomen verum of Isis or Osiris, you could invoke and use their power. And so name was access to power, and it was access to power by presence. And so by invoking their name, their true name, you invoke the presence of that deity and therefore their power. And, you know, the close analogy I can get to people to understand that in the modern technological world is, have you ever experienced trying to log in when you forgot your password?

B (21:02)

Right.

A (21:02)

You forgot the right name, and you can't get access. The files don't come up, your computer screen doesn't open up, you have no access because you have the wrong name. And so that's how the ancients saw this idea of divine worship, that if you had the right name, it was Like a key and a keyhole that unlocked all kinds of the power of the presence of the deity. So just like a code name unlocks the power of the presence of these files that you now have access to, a name is the key to access. And so what Jesus is saying is by using and invoking his name, by gathering in the name of Jesus, they have access to God's presence in a particularly powerful way. And that's what the temple was known for in the Old Testament. And now that name makes the temple presence of God present wherever two or more are gathered. So that's pretty powerful, isn't it?

B (21:53)

That's very powerful. It's very powerful. And in fact, you know the next line there for that line, for where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them. It actually sounds a lot like a passage that's famously known from the Mishnah. The Mishnah is a 2nd century collection of sayings of rabbis that lived in Jesus's day. So you got to use it critically because we don't always know that it's reliable. But it seems in this case, most scholars think that this is something that was said in Jesus's day because it sounds so much like the Gospel of Matthew in Mishnah avot, which means the fathers. So here's what the fathers, the earlier teachers, would say. If two sit together and the words of the law are spoken between them, the Divine Presence is among them. Right? So if you are sitting together.

A (22:45)

Yes, go ahead, go ahead, I'll let you finish. Go ahead.

B (22:48)

If you're sitting together and the words of the Torah are spoken, God's presence is with you. And so Jesus is in Matthew's gospel, the Torah. We talked about that when we looked at the transfiguration, right. That there were so many similarities between what happens at Mount Sinai. When Moses goes up and receives the law, he takes, for example, Aaron, Nadab and Abihu up the mountain with him. Jesus takes Peter, James and John. And just as the law is delivered to Moses, Christ is revealed as the Law was revealed at Sinai. Jesus is the true Torah and he is among us whenever we gather in his name.

A (23:34)

Michael, I could be getting this wrong, but I thought my recollection was that the Mishnah said, if 10 gathered. Or maybe I'm thinking of a different rabbinic saying, if 10 gathered.

B (23:44)

This is.

A (23:45)

Yeah, no, it was two in the Mishnah.

B (23:49)

You know, I could run and go get my Mishnah copy and look at it right now, but that would be awkward.

A (23:54)

You're younger than me. I trust your memory better than mine. I thought it was a higher quota and that Jesus lowered the quota if it was in his name, but.

B (24:05)

I'll have to go check it.

A (24:07)

But the difference would be it was the words of the Torah, whereas for Jesus it's in his name. And of course, the temple going back to Deuteronomy is the place where God makes his name dwell. And that's where God's present. And so Jesus is saying he's the new temple. And wherever two or more gathered in his name, they become a temple like place.

B (24:29)

Which is appropriate because he is Emmanuel right at the beginning of the Gospel. Right. Which is God with us. So he is with us in the ecclesia, in the church which he tells Peter he's going to build after Peter tells him, you're the son of David, you're the Son of God, you're the Messiah. And what did the son of David do? He built a temple. And Jesus establishes the temple as the church and Christ is with us. And that's really what Matthew 18 is all about, Tim. It's about what it means to live in this new temple and how we are called to a higher righteousness in it.

A (25:02)

It's such a high calling that we have in Christ. Well, the last story here in the last half of chapter 18 I want to cover in the next four minutes. And so I want to set the big picture for this. We can't be as detailed, but Jesus is asked by Peter, you know, how many times do I have to forgive my brother? Seven times. And Jesus is going to say 70 times seven, which is actually 490, which is the jubilee number. And we know that's a very important number for the Jews. The jubilee is about release and forgiveness. And the fact that it's going to be 490 times and means that they are to have with each other amongst their brethren a forgiveness that God has given Israel. Because God's forgiven Israel for the 490 years of the exile when they've been unrepentant. But then Jesus kind of brings this home when he tells the story about the King of heaven may be compared to a king. So he kind of tells a parable here, doesn't he? And let's just talk about this parable in the big picture because we only have a couple minutes. But you want to summarize the parable for everybody.

B (26:07)

Yeah. Basically there's a king and he settles accounts with his servants. And one of the servants owes way more than he could ever pay back. And the king is merciful and forgives him. And then that same servant goes out, finds another servant who owes him much less, and he finds him and he throttles him, grabs him by the throat, basically attacks him and demands he pay back everything. Well, the guy, he just had the biggest financial windfall of his life, and he's not showing mercy to this guy. When the king finds out, he's enraged and he condemns the wicked servant, and he has him thrown into prison. And it says there, he will be thrown into prison until he pays back all his debt. And then Jesus ends with, my Heavenly Father will do to every one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart. This is what we pray in the Our Father, forgive us as we forgive those. That's the lesson Jesus wants us to learn, I think, primarily in this parable. And, you know, the one thing I just would throw out there is that some of the church fathers, like Ambrose, saw in this line, you shall not get out until you paid the last penny. A reference to purgatory. Right. That there is a place that you can be sent until that debt is paid off. And that's a fascinating early tradition.

A (27:39)

It is. And I think people think that that might mean God's less merciful. But, you know, throughout the parable, one of the key things here is the Master who forgives the debt, he's merciful. Then the steward who doesn't forgive is failing in mercy to give the mercy he had received, which is so astonishing. And, of course, mercy is one of the attributes of God. In Exodus 34, 6, we see that, and then forgiveness is one of the attributes of God. And yet this idea of paying until the last penny is paid, actually, this idea of purgatory, the alternative to purgatory is there's no purgation and you don't have any chance to enter heaven. So the idea of purgatory gives a window for people who haven't lived by mercy and justice to pay for that and to be in God's presence ultimately. Right?

B (28:38)

That's right. Yep.

A (28:40)

Yeah. I think it's a. I mean, it's such a powerful story, and it's a jubilee story. Right. Because as you know, Michael, the Jews thought that one of the terms for sin was debt. And the idea of having a debt they couldn't pay, which we all have a debt we can't pay to God, and we have to rely on his mercy to forgive us our sins. So we should then imitate what the Lord has done for us by being merciful to others. And I think that's really the takeaway we want to have for this episode, just to wrap it up here in the last minute. And that is, we need to think and remember that God has forgiven us a great deal and that therefore, you know, someone might owe us a debt. They might have sinned and treated us unfairly or unjustly. But we have to remember that, all right, I'm going to forgive them and release them of what they owe me in terms of I'm going to just let it go. I'm going to forgive them. And because God has forgiven me a great deal. And once you have that motivation, it's hard to forgive people who have acted unjustly, wickedly, selfishly. But when we look at it in light of what God has given us, that we are then the stewards who are forgiving a small debt compared to the big debt God's forgiven us, it makes it much easier to forgive. Well, I want to thank everybody for joining us for this session of the Bible study, and I hope this has been a blessing to you and an encouragement to you. And I want to thank everybody who joins us and supports us through the mission circle. Thank you all and God bless.