A (4:33)

It is such an important question. It's one that we all need to grapple with. And it's the one question we all want to be able to understand. Because our salvation depends on this, right? As you said, Michael, salvation is a big, big topic. It's really what Jesus whole mission is about, is saving us. And we want to be saved. And even if we Catholics, and I'm a cradle Catholic, even if we Catholics are a little bit unfamiliar with this, we can't be afraid of it. It's certainly in the Scriptures and in the Creed, as you mentioned, and in so much of our faith. We just have to refamiliarize ourselves with this thing. And there's A right way to understand salvation. And that Catholics, I think, have in our Catholic doctrine and teaching a beautiful insight into the meaning of Scripture. And I think that's what's so important is that the Catholic doctrine is actually an accurate and enlightening interpretation of on the Word of God. And so the Catholic doctrine and the Catholic Scriptures go hand in hand.

B (5:30)

One thing that's really important here is people will say, oh well, if good works count toward your salvation, well then how many good works do you have to do in order to be saved? Right now?

A (5:39)

700.

B (5:40)

Have you done enough? You know, and the reality is this totally. Usually it misconstrues salvation. What is salvation? I think for a lot of people, salvation is just fire insurance. It's just getting out of hell. But that's not salvation. In a fully biblical perspective, salvation isn't just getting out of hell. It's entering into communion with the one who God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus shows us what that love looks like on the cross. But salvation means becoming like Christ and learning to love like him. And so when Jesus responds, he says, if, if you would enter life, keep the commandments, because the commandments teach us what it means to become like Christ. The commandments aren't arbitrary. The commandments aren't some like, you know, willy nilly arbitrary decision made by God. Ah, let's see. Don't kill. Yeah, that's a good one. Don't lie. Yeah, we'll go with that. No, all these commandments are ultimately teaching us how to love. And salvation ultimately is about learning what it means to love like Christ, to be a lover like Christ, and to be united to him. So it's no surprise Jesus says, if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments. And then the rich young man says, well, which ones?

B (7:01)

Which is really fun. And I think a lot of people would answer that way today.

A (7:07)

Absolutely. And you know, and Jesus, interestingly here, you know, if he wanted to say it was faith alone, this was the time, this was the moment, wouldn't it, wouldn't it be? And for him to say, you know.

A (7:22)

Keep the commandments, that's pretty, you know, and then he also says, why do you ask me who is good? There is only one who is good. And it seems at that point that Jesus is saying he's not divine.

A (7:37)

And that's how a lot of people take that. So we can come back to that. Let's let. That'd be a burning question for people in a minute. And then, you know, and you know, Jesus gives them the list of commandments. But it's interesting, the list that he chooses here. It's a particular list that you know, you shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, steal false witness, honor your father and mother. You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

A (8:04)

But that is from the second tablet of the commandments. As the Jews would see it. The first tablet is the three commandments that relate to the justice we owe God. And Jesus, interestingly enough, doesn't cite those three. He cites the ones that have to do with distributive justice, that is, the justice we owe to our neighbor. But he doesn't talk about the justice we owe God. So I think that's really interesting. I want to come back to that in a moment. But then the young man said, yeah, all these I have kept, what do I still lack? And you want to pick up from there, Michael?

B (8:40)

Well, it's amazing that he says, I've kept all these commandments. And Jesus doesn't say, liar, Right?

A (8:47)

Right. He grants him that.

B (8:48)

So this man is a very good man. Right? He's kept the commandments. And so he says, what do I still lack? And Jesus says, if you would be perfect, go and sell what you possess, give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven and come follow me. And the young man walks away. So he could have been the 13 apostle, right? He could have followed Jesus by giving away everything that he had, and he couldn't do it. And so he leaves. Sorrowful. I think it's important here to point out Jesus doesn't ask everyone who follows him to do what he asks of the rich young man. He asks that of the rich young man. But in the case of Zacchaeus, the famous tax collector that Jesus dines with in Luke's Gospel, Zacchaeus says, I'm gonna give away half of my belongings and restore whatever I've stolen. And Jesus says, salvation has come to this house today. And I often wonder if the rich young man might have heard of that story. Wait a minute, hang on. How did that guy not have to give away everything? And I. So Jesus knows what each of us needs to do in order to find salvation. And he is like the divine physician. And he looks into this young man's soul and. And he sees that he is particularly attached to his wealth. Now, I can't say God is calling us all to the same thing. I just know what God is calling me to do. And I think that's an important question.

A (10:12)

For all of us. And that is give up all Your books that we see behind you.

B (10:21)

God doesn't command the impossible.

A (10:22)

Exactly. No, he doesn't, Zacchaeus. He doesn't.

A (10:28)

But here's what I think is interesting, Michael, and tell me what you think about this. But when Jesus says, there's one thing you lack, Jesus lists out a whole list of the commandments, but they're from what we call the second tablet, those 10 commandments that relate to justice. He doesn't list out any of the three commandments that relate to love of God. And so. And when Jesus says, there's one thing you lack, well, if we're a careful reader and we realize that Jesus did not list the three commandments that relate to justice, and what we owe God, well, what he lacks is giving radically to God. And so then what does Jesus give as the formula for solving that problem? He says, go sell all you possess, give it to the poor, and you'll have treasure in heaven, and come follow me. In other words, it would seem that Jesus is saying two things, but one of them is by giving to the poor, we're giving to Jesus. And that mystery, I think, will become highlighted by Matthew in chapter 25, whatever you did to the least of my brethren, you did unto me. So that's subtly baked into this answer. I think that Jesus is giving the rich young man, but he's also saying, follow me. In other words, if you give up everything and follow me, you're going to fulfill love to God. In other words, Jesus. Because Jesus even, I think, explores this at the beginning, why do you call me good? No one's good but God alone. In other words, Jesus is not saying, don't refer to me on the level of God. I think what Jesus is saying is, do you get it that I'm God? Do you get that I'm bigger? And when he poses that question, why do you call me good? No one's good but God alone. And then he comes back, lists the commandments, doesn't mention any of the commandments that relate to love of God. And then Jesus says, you lack one thing. That is love of God. But here's the solution. Give up everything so you're free from your possessions to follow me wholeheartedly. In other words, following Jesus wholeheartedly fulfills the first three commandments.

B (12:25)

That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Fantastic.

A (12:30)

So I think it's an invitation to realize what radical discipleship means in terms of the invitation to follow Jesus Christ. Right. And I also like the idea that giving your position as the poor not only frees him up to follow Jesus. But as Jesus will teach in chapter 25, verse 36, and following, whatever you did to the least to my brethren, you did unto me. When did we see you hungry? When did we see you naked? When do we see you in prison and sick? And again, that giving to the poor as Mother Teresa Calcutta, she's the great doctor of this teaching. Now, you know, whatever we did for Jesus and the poorest of the poor, we did for Jesus.

B (13:13)

I love that. I also really like how this ties in with the beatitudes in Matthew 5. Right. The first beatitude is blessed are the poor in spirit. And that's been misinterpreted in a lot of ways. But what it basically means is to become like those who are poor. Right? To be not just without material goods, but to have the spirit that those who are poor and who rely on the Lord have. And so that is what will lead to happiness. Blessed. In Greek, makarios means happy. Happy are you if you're poor in spirit. This man is unable to embrace that he's unable to be poor in spirit. And so he thinks his possessions are going to make him happy. They're not going to make them happy. They make them sorrowful.

A (13:58)

Yeah, it's so important because so many people don't realize this today. In our materialistic culture, we think that making more money and having more material goods is actually going to. First off, we want it to solve our problems. And sometimes it can solve our immediate problems, but then we think it's going to fill our hearts. And material possessions cannot fill our hearts. They just can't. And that's why depression can happen. You would think that if material possessions made you happy, depression would drop off according to your social and economic wealth. Right? And it doesn't. In fact, actually, the opposite happens that oftentimes there's more depression amongst those who are socioeconomically wealthy versus those who are poor. So it's counterintuitive, but Christ saw it right away. He understood the human heart. Well, you know the next story, Jesus says, and he said to his disciples in verse 23, truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again, I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God. And so now.

A (15:11)

This is a tough saying. This is going to shock the disciples. They're going to be, as it says in the next line, greatly astonished. You know, it's not often, and Jesus teaches a lot of incredible and novel things. And they're not usually greatly astonished, but this one greatly astonished them. And now, before we get into the challenge of how rich people can be saved, Michael, I'm always moved by St. Thomas More when he talked about the textual solution to this problem, the idea of a camel going through the eye of a needle.

B (15:45)

And.

A (15:45)

And Thomas More, who was a great man of the Renaissance and he understood Greek, he noticed that the word for rope was very similar to the word in Greek for camel, and that the copyist probably took the word for rope going through the eye of a needle and he misjudged it and put it as camel. And I find that very compelling myself. And not just because it's a saint who said it and a brilliant saint like Thomas More, but that could be the metaphor. Maybe he was trying to say a rope going through the eye of a needle rather than a camel, because a camel doesn't. I mean, this doesn't make any sense of using the metaphor of a camel going through the eye of a needle. But the idea of a rope trying to get. It's hard enough getting thread through an eye of a needle, if you've ever tried to do that, but trying to get a rope through it gives you the sense of this is difficult thoughts.

B (16:38)

Right? There are lots of. There have been lots of attempts to try to explain this passage away. Right. And that's not one of them, obviously. And I like that some people have tried to say, well, there was a gate in Jerusalem called the eye of the needle. And you're laughing because you know that there was no gate in the first century called name and that, you know, this has often been a tactic of those who preach what's known as the health and wealth gospel. Right. If you follow Jesus, you're just going to get more and more wealthy and. And God's going to answer all of your prayers and help you win the lottery and drive a Ferrari. And that's a sign of God's blessing. That's a major problem that is contrary to what Jesus is teaching. And it fails to explain Jesus answer next to the disciples because they say, who can be saved? And Jesus says, with man, this is impossible. Now I just. We need to stop there for one second because it's a really important line. We often want to downplay.

B (17:36)

The challenge of the gospel. And there are people even in the church today will say, well, you know, Jesus's teachings are kind of difficult. And, you know, the church's teaching on marriage or sexuality or something like that, it's just too hard. We need to find a way to accommodate our teachings, make it easier. I'm sorry, if you're trying to tell people that Jesus teachings are too hard and we need to make them easier, you're not paying attention to what he says because cheer up, it's worse than you think. He says it's impossible, it's not as hard, it's not difficult, it's impossible to be saved. And we need to proclaim that message in our churches because without it we don't realize our need for grace, that the only reason we can answer Jesus's call, the only reason we can put into practice his teaching in our lives is, is by turning to him and relying on his grace and his help, relying on him through prayer, for example. And if we neglect that, then what's going to happen is this. We're going to neglect prayer, right? We're going to neglect the sacraments, we're going to neglect the sacrament of confession because we think we could do it all on our own.

A (18:41)

That's so important, Michael, because you know, there's a tendency of a number of people in Christianity for the last 200 years and in the life of the church today who say, you know, chastity is really difficult or celibacy is really difficult. And so, you know, this is just too hard on people so we should loosen the law to solve the problem. So in other words, if something's too hard, the go to answer is, well, let's just loosen up the laws and then that'll be better for people. But actually people are miserable in sin and so making the law, changing the law doesn't change the fact that sin is sin and it enslaves the human heart. That's the first answer. But the second answer is this is why Jesus died for us and why we have the sacraments and why we go to God because of a thing called grace, which means gift, right? And we cannot do this on our own. We can't do anything on our own in terms of living the law of Christ. And so you know, the rich can't be saved because they're going to be selfish jerks and by nature they're going to keep that and that's going to make them arrogant and proud and selfish and self seeking. And yet they need grace that in the midst of those possessions they learn to become generous and learn that their strength is not in their wealth, but it's in Christ, it's in God, that God is their refuge, not their 401k. And the same Thing is true. When I hear of a priest scandal, a priest who falls from favor, and people are like, well, if that priest can't be chaste, who can be? And the question is, anybody can be by the grace of God, and nobody can be without the grace of God. And so that's the great. This is the great paradox, right? Nobody, it is impossible for man, as Jesus is saying here. Nobody can do this apart from Christ and apart from his grace. But with his grace, everybody and anybody can become a Christian who's faithful and know the love of Christ. And I know that my own life, I know. I look back at my life and you know, the grace of Christ, the grace of the sacraments, the grace that comes through prayer transforms me such that I'm not, you know, the hardened sinner that I used to be. And I know that that's the work of God's grace. And everybody who follows Christ, who is in Christ can say the same thing. They know the joy of God's grace. And we just have to proclaim that more definitively.

B (21:14)

I think that's right. If you don't realize that what Christ is calling to, if you don't realize that what Christ is calling you to is impossible, then you haven't understood his calling yet. So this is why the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that marriage, right, marriage involves this calling where spouses are called to love one another with a supernatural love. I don't just owe my wife attention. I don't just owe my wife patience. I owe her a super. I can barely love in a natural way, right? A supernatural love. This is why marriage is understood to be a sacrament in the Catholic tradition. Because we need God's grace in order to fulfill our vocation in our life. And if you want to ask yourself, do I really believe Jesus? Do I take his word for this? With man, this is impossible. With God, all things are possible. Here's how you know. How much time did you spend in prayer today? Because if you can go through the whole day without going to God, and serious time in prayer, I don't mean just like a Hail Mary or, you know, glory be, but I mean serious time in prayer. If you can go through your whole day without serious, dedicated time to prayer, what you told God that day is, I don't need your help. I got it. I got it. No, thanks. I got it. And then we set ourselves up for disaster.

A (22:31)

Yeah. You know, I think the greatest crisis in the church stems from people in the church not praying, Michael. And that means laity and clergy, you know, when you don't pray, the branch that's cut off from the vine doesn't bear fruit. And it's just that simple. But now let's go back to our astonished disciples. They can't believe the idea that the rich can't enter the kingdom of heaven. Because for Jews, if you're faithful, then you're blessed with prosperity. And so if those who. You would think the rich were those who are faithful, who've merited God's blessing and thriving, and if they can't enter the kingdom of heaven, then for the Jewish idea of this, it seems pretty astonishing for them. So you want to talk about the Jewish perspective here?

B (23:23)

Sure. What I'd really like to do is just what Peter says is, see, we've left everything and followed you. What then will we have? So, Peter. Whoa, wait a minute. I did this. This is great. I did good. I did good. And so it's interesting, Peter recognizes he has done what the rich young man failed to do. And then Jesus says this in the New world, literally in the Greek, in the new Genesis and the new creation, when the Son of man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on 12 Thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for my sake will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. There's actually some interesting Old Testament background to this. Right. Who is it that judges the 12 tribes of Israel? In Jesus's day, it's only the priests, Right? So Josephus, in his first century Jewish historian, was, when he's talking about judges, quotes from Deuteronomy, but he leaves out the fact that laity could judge in Deuteronomy. And he explains, in his day, it's only the priests. And what's remarkable about this is Jesus is telling the 12 they're gonna have a priestly role, and they're gonna have this because they renounced brothers or sisters or father or mother or children. Well, who in the Old Testament renounced kin? It was the Levites, the ones who became the priests. The Levitical. I could go through various passages. I won't read them all now because we're running out of time. But there are numerous passages in the Old Testament as well as later Jewish tradition talk about how the Levites renounced brothers and sisters and father and mother and receiving the priesthood, because what they had to do was kill all the idolaters who had worshiped the golden Calvin. That included their own family members. And because they did that, Moses says, you ordain yourself to the priesthood and then they reject lands. There's one tribe that didn't get lands, that renounced lands. That was the Levites, the priests instead. The Lord is your inheritance, they're told. And Jesus says that the 12 will inherit eternal life. And interestingly enough, Jesus had told the rich young man, if you would be perfect, this is what the disciples get, right? But the Greek word there for perfect is also the Greek word that's often used for ordination of priests. So what we discover is that the disciples, the apostles in particular, are identified by Jesus as priests of the new covenant. They're going to have the role of judging the 12 tribes. And they receive this because they've renounced family, which many celebrate, priests, of course, do today, as well as lands, which many priests do today. Their own houses, their own land, they go where the bishop sends them. And really all of us are called to be priests by virtue of our baptism. But so the 12 are example to all of us who must at times turn away from our family. And we have to recognize our family may be upset by things that we say or we do for Christ. And we have to let go of lands and wealth.

A (26:20)

And this goes back to the question of how do I inherit eternal life? And Jesus idea of the commandments of God, which is the will of God. And the idea of to follow Jesus, we have to make sacrificial gift of ourselves. And that is the way of Jesus Christ. And that's the way that Peter is imitating here and the disciples who are close to him. And that's the invitation we all have to be as generous as we possibly can and to be as generous as it hurts. Because love is giving of self, and it's a sacrifice of self. And the problem is selfishness doesn't give self. And all sin has as its root selfishness, and all love has at its roots selflessness, the gift of self giving self. And so really the story of the rich young man, and then the story that Jesus then teaches afterwards about the rich entering, it's really about the rich letting go of those possessions so that they can have room for God and love and give to God. And Jesus has opened up in this teaching, this passage for us a beautiful image and a beautiful invitation and finally the idea of reward, right? I don't know if you want to mention that, but he says, look, they will receive a hundredfold, right? So Jesus is promising significant return on investment here, isn't he?

B (27:42)

Michael, most certainly. And that word, mistos, reward. That's translated, reward is the word that's used for payment. Right. So we have Matthew, who's remembered as a tax collector, Right? Matthew's gospel using this economic imagery, which is perfectly consistent with what we would expect in a gospel attributed to a tax collector. And if we want that return on investment, we know how to find it. It's not investing in worldly things, but in those things that are above.

A (28:14)

Well, Michael, this is great. We'll pick up next time with chapter 20 of the gospel of Matthew for everybody. This is a lot to digest, for everyone, probably, but this is a great story. This encounter teaches us so much about who Jesus is. He is the one who is truly good. Why do you call him good? That's the question we want to walk away with. Because he's God. That's why we call him Good. He is the source of all the good that we have. And all the good that we have, all the good that that rich young man had, he had because God gave it to him. It all was made by the Creator. And in the new creation, what we have will be based on what we gave away in the old creation. So we want to be generous. This is a great invitation and I want to thank and be grateful to everybody who's generous to us at the Augusta Institute and supports our mission circle. I just got a beautiful letter from one of our alumni who watches our form dailies and just joined the mission circle. And it was a beautiful letter of how much the graduate school blessed her and she's doing ministry in Wisconsin now and beautiful ministry. So I. We're so grateful for all of you who support us in your prayers and support us financially helps us to have this mission. And we're grateful. So may the Lord bless and keep you. Take care.