Taylor Kemp (3:06)

Okay.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (3:06)

So the reason that they're accused of this, of course, is cannibalism because of the Eucharist and incest because Christians call each other brother and sister. And also they seal prayer with a holy kiss. And at least some early sources indicate that this kiss was on the lips.

Taylor Kemp (3:22)

So that is interesting.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (3:24)

Maybe some, you know, the kiss of.

Taylor Kemp (3:26)

Peace, like never before.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (3:27)

Yeah, the kiss of peace. Yeah. Our kids of peace. American kiss of peace doesn't really necessarily measure up to the early standards of the kiss of peace anyway, so. And. And they've been in secret.

Taylor Kemp (3:36)

We don't even want to shake hands.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (3:37)

We don't.

Taylor Kemp (3:37)

It's more like. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (3:40)

It's something we call. That's what we call, like, the sign of peace. We don't call it the kiss of peace. We call it the sign of peace.

Taylor Kemp (3:44)

Calm down, everybody.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (3:44)

You know, we just give a sign. I'm sure in Europe, the kiss of peace is a little retained.

Taylor Kemp (3:48)

I'm trying to remember a little more.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (3:50)

In its original form, perhaps.

Taylor Kemp (3:51)

Yeah, yeah. All right. So they are accused of cannibalism, the Eucharist, incest, because we are calling each other brother and sister, and they. They have the kiss of peace.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (4:01)

Right. And they meet in secret. Right. And so any kind of clandestine gathering.

Taylor Kemp (4:06)

What'S going on there? Something has to be going on.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (4:09)

Right. Is considered sort of suspect. So you have all these martyrs, you know, being tortured in an attempt to extract a confession from them.

Taylor Kemp (4:21)

Okay.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (4:22)

And so this idea of confession is kind of twofold. Christians see their confession as saying, I am a Christian.

Taylor Kemp (4:27)

Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (4:28)

And it was, in fact, the case that you could be put to death just for that confession. But Romans also had the idea that people told the truth under torture. So we might think that they're very vicious and cruel. Which is, in fact, the case if you read these martyrdom stories. It's pretty horrific. But they had some psychological understanding that if you were tortured, you would tell the truth. So they're trying to torture these people to extract, you know, the confession.

Taylor Kemp (4:53)

Would you say the opposite is really the truth?

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (4:56)

Yes. I mean, yeah, psychologically, the opposite. So we know now that the opposite is the truth. But that's not what the Roman. And especially if you're, like, a slave or like someone low class, it's like, well, they don't tell the truth, so you gotta torture them. Usually Romans thought, like, an excuse to torture. Right. Usually Roman citizens were exempt from torture and from these kind of elaborate deaths in the arena or whatever. Usually if you're a Roman citizen, you have the right to be beheaded.

Taylor Kemp (5:19)

Like Paul.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (5:20)

Like Paul. Right. So, yeah, Paul appeals to be transferred to Rome and all these things. So that does come up in this story. One reason that I think this story is so interesting is that it really. I don't know, it gives you a little bit of insight into the psychology of making a confession of faith, especially when other people are not doing so. Okay, so in the story, there are a number of people, both slave and free, who recant and who even confess to cannibalism and incest and accuse the Christians of doing that under torture and trial. So this kind of complicates. Like, I think it's very easy to valorize martyrdom and think of it as. I don't know. No one thinks it's easy, but very clear.

Taylor Kemp (6:03)

Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (6:04)

Like, it's just this very clear thing. It's like, well, you either sacrifice to the gods and you know you're toast, or you stay firm to Christ. And, like, those are the only options. But there's actually. Historically, it's very complicated. So you have some of the people in the story who recant and then later are punished anyway because either the Roman governor thinks that they seem guilty and they're probably guilty of this stuff anyway, or they're rearrested later and do make conf. Confession. And so it's just a very kind of complex picture. And I think this is important today when we think about. I don't know, some people think about, like, maybe red martyrdoms will return or maybe we'll have to make confession under difficult circumstances. But it's often very muddy. Like, it's often. It does require great faith and trust in God and clarity of thinking. Because from the Romans perspective, they, like. They are kind of weird and suspect. It's a New religion, they don't really know what's going on. There are a lot of, like, slaves and lower class people who they think are susceptible to superstition involved in it. And I thought in particular, there's one martyr in the story whose name is Sanctus and he's a deacon and he refuses to say anything other than, I am a Christian the entire time, which is really beautiful and moving. That's beautiful.

Taylor Kemp (7:21)

Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (7:21)

But if you think about it from a Roman governor's perspective, right? Like, if you're at trial and you're like, please state your name. You're like, I am a Christian. Where are you from? I am a Christian.

Taylor Kemp (7:31)

Yeah, you'd think he's a Christian.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (7:32)

Like, on what day were you, I am a Christian. You're gonna think they're crazy. And so from his perspective, there's a psychological thing going on there, which is you actually might not make it. You might not actually profess the faith. You're saying in Sanctus, in song.

Taylor Kemp (7:51)

Totally. And you can, you can imagine that if you're, if you're facing torture and pain and maybe death, you're probably wrestling with this in your mind of what do I do? You're thinking about people at home or, I don't know, I don't know what would go through your mind, but probably a lot. And if you're like, I'm going to hold on to the one thing I know I need to say, I am a Christian. Right. And then you just stick to it. I can, I can totally get how you would get there.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (8:14)

And the martyrs in various stories, you can see that they are concerned and pray that they will make a good confession because not, not everybody makes it. There are people who recant under torture.

Taylor Kemp (8:26)

Yeah, it's true.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (8:27)

Understandably. And so I just mean that for today, if we're thinking about defending the faith in the public sphere, or if ever anyone were to have the opportunity for red martyrdom, it's not going to look good.

Taylor Kemp (8:42)

Yeah, it's not. Yeah, right.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (8:44)

It's not going to look. You probably won't look heroic. And if you look at a lot of even modern martyrs, someone like blessed Franz Jagerstadter, who was martyred under the Nazis for refusing to serve, from the perspective of his country, he was a traitor.

Taylor Kemp (8:57)

Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (8:58)

You know, and that, like, it didn't look.

Taylor Kemp (8:59)

Yeah. We hold him up as a hero.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (9:01)

We hold him up as a hero now in retrospect, in his life, in his own life and his family had to bear that shame for the whole, you know, for the whole time after that. He died as a traitor to his country.

Taylor Kemp (9:11)

Yep.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (9:12)

And this is how the Romans feel about the Christians. Like, if you don't sacrifice to the gods and if you're doing stuff in secret against Roman religion, you're a security threat. Because if the gods are angry, then the Roman Empire falls. And. Yeah, so there's a lot of. There's a lot riding on this in terms of national identity, religious identity, social cohesion, which makes it logical for the Romans to persecute them. Of course, Roman persecution is extremely horrific. I'm not trying to understand. No.

Taylor Kemp (9:40)

But from a worldly perspective, you're like, I get it. Like, I can see what you're trying to do.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (9:43)

Right.

Taylor Kemp (9:44)

Force religious unity for the sake of the society. Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (9:48)

Right. And for them, it's very palpable. I mean, it's not just, like, sociopolitical or something. Like, they actually believe the gods exist and that they will be mad if you don't worship them and that this is. Even if they're not religious people, it's like, yeah, but you don't mess around with that. And that's their view. And you'll even see Roman governor saying, like, look, like, just sprinkle a little incense. Like, nobody cares. I'll be all fine. So anyway, that's an interesting aspect of this story, but to kind of turn. But on the flip side of that, the tortures described in this story are quite intense, and they are real Roman tortures. Like, these are not invented. Like, I know maybe sometimes if you've read some other hagiographies or the Golden Legend or something, some of these things are kind of fantastical or whatever. This is not fantastical. This is representing Roman torture in things like being stretched on the rack and being clawed. And one of the ones they particularly mention is being, like, roasted on a chair. On an iron chair. And these are all forms of torture that Romans use. There's one particular martyr who's really held up. Among them are all of them whose name is Blandina. And Blandina is a slave. And so she is, you know, the lowest female slave is the lowest of the low in Roman society. And she's really held up as the leader of the martyrs. Wow. And likened to kind of the Maccabean mother. So there's a kind of cool inversion in this story where the Romans are accusing them of cannibalism, but they kind of turn it around when they're being, like, literally roasted on an iron chair. Like, you're cooking people alive. And so you Have a kind of echo of the Maccabees when they refuse to eat the meat. And so she's likened to kind of the Maccabean mother who watches all of her children die ahead of her and kind of fortifies them. So I want to read one just little, really inspiring thing about Blandina here. Okay? So she's tortured in a number of rounds of torture. So this is just one of the times. Okay. Through her. So through Blandida, Christ showed that what seems worthless without appearance and contemptible among men is deemed worthy of great glory in the eyes of God on account of the love for him that is manifested in power and does not boast in appearance. For we were all afraid. And her mistress, according to the flesh, too, who was herself in the contest of one of the martyrs, she was anxious that she. So the mistress was anxious that Blandina might not be able to make a bold confession because of the weakness of her body. But Blandina was filled with such power that those taking turns to inflict every form of torture on her from dawn to dusk failed and gave up confessing that they were defeated and had nothing left to do to her. They were astonished that she continued to breathe, since her entire body was torn and laid open. And they swore that a single form of torture was enough to draw the soul from the body, never mind the various and numerous tortures they used on her. But like a noble champion, the blessed woman was restored by her confession. And it was for her recovery and repose and relief to say, I am a Christian, and among us, nothing vile happens. Hmm. I just think that's. It's so beautiful, and I think it shows what was threatening about Christianity, but also what was so beautiful. Right. That the things despised of the world are made powerful by Christ.

Taylor Kemp (13:14)

Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (13:16)

You know, Roman slavery, like, it's hard for us now to imagine the kind of establishment that Roman slavery is like. There are different classes of people. Like, the idea in America today that, like, all people are born equal under the eyes of God or something. That is not an ancient Roman ideal. This a different class of person. You don't have rights. You don't. You know, you're. And, like, their fear for her is like, well, she's not really like, yeah, she's lesser.

Taylor Kemp (13:44)

She's a little less.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (13:44)

She's a little lesser. And so for. But her solidarity with Christ. Right. Who became lower than the angels, who became like a slave, as Philippians 2 says, is really brought out specifically in this character. And I just think. I just think she's really inspiring it.

Taylor Kemp (14:02)

Is really inspiring and it helps. I feel like we always need to be called back to kind of the measure of Christianity as Christ on the cross. That it's so easy even for us who are trying to walk very faithful lives to get caught up in like some kind of coming together of a worldly vision of success, whatever that may be. Like whether that's a. Like your. The family that you have or your job or your money or your car, whatever may be. And it's like the measure of success is just the cross. It's love. That's the measure of success is love. And that she puts that on display. And I was thinking, I don't remember. I'm pretty sure it's in the Gospel of Matthew. I should have the quote. I'm sorry somebody you can Google it. But when Jesus says you will be brought in, you will be thrown in front of councils and you will be tortured. And he says in that moment, do not worry about what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will help you know what to say. And I've always been struck by that because there's this promise of like as a Christian, you're going to be helped out by the Holy Spirit in terms of your confession. But that's in the context of. Of maybe not necessarily martyrdom but like trial and that you can see that in Blandina and in so many of the martyrs. I mean we've. I don't think we have a Catholic saints on this, but we should. But on saint. I was recently reading about Saint John de Brebouf and Isaac Jones. It's the same thing. You're like, oh my gosh, this is so inspiring. These guys are just getting kind of ripped apart and they are so steadfast.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (15:31)

And the end the eyes that Christian because of Christ. The eyes that they had to see this as a victory because obviously from a worldly perspective this is literally the exact opposite. Opposite of exactly like tortured in a humiliating way and eaten by wild animals.

Taylor Kemp (15:43)

Like you're done.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (15:44)

It's just. And in this story they burn the martyrs bodies and throw them into the river as a. Despite the Christian doctrine of the resurrection. And so I mean there's literally reduced to dust. I mean there's no way that you could be humiliated further. But because of their confession and because they worship a crucified man, which in and of itself like that does that scandal does not.

Taylor Kemp (16:07)

Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (16:07)

You can never get it does not hit us the way it does a Roman to crucifix to worship a crucified man. And to see. Yeah. That. That Christ makes all things new and that, you know, if you take up your cross and follow him, that you.

Taylor Kemp (16:22)

Have the promise of life.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (16:22)

That you have the promise of life.

Taylor Kemp (16:24)

Which is something that I feel like it has to be experienced because it makes no sense like that. You know, we kind of try to take up our cross in the Lord's providence. We encounter different sufferings at different levels at different times. But it is in. That is growth and joy and peace. And you're like, oh, that's. That's tough to swallow.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (16:42)

Yeah. And I always. I mean, I always think about. I think that there's a reason that there's a privileged place for the martyr as a Christian saint. I mean, the first saints are martyrs. These are the first. These are the people who are in the Roman canon. They're martyrs because they most literally imitate Christ and teach us, you know, the path that we have to follow. And often in many of the martyrdom stories, it's kind of a liturgical exchange. This is one of my, like, hobby topics, martyrdom liturgy. But they often, when they pronounce a sentence of death, the martyr will say, thanks be to God. And this is like the Eucharist, the act of. To give thanks to God. And, like, I don't even do that for, like, small sufferings.

Taylor Kemp (17:23)

Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (17:24)

Like when you. When you go to bed at night, when you're, like, praying your last prayers, do you think, like, are you praying, like, oh, please take this away from me and take that away from me and fix this problem? Or do you say, thank you?

Taylor Kemp (17:36)

Thanks be to God.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (17:37)

Yeah, thanks be to God that I am deemed worthy to suffer with the Lord.

Taylor Kemp (17:40)

That is a great call out.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (17:42)

And. Yeah. I mean, it's inspiring to see it in such a heroic way. But this story in particular, I think, helps us see that the call to martyrdom is very complex and that there will be. When you're trying to live up to the calling to which Christ has drawn you, there will be others who don't, and there will be others who say, you don't need to do that.

Taylor Kemp (18:05)

Yeah, just do it. Just sprinkle.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (18:06)

Yeah, just sprinkle.

Taylor Kemp (18:07)

Whatever that might be.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (18:08)

Yeah. And later in the fourth century, in the great persecution, there are lots of Christians who. They just offer the sacrifices, like, not that big of a deal. And there are all kinds of different levels of apostasy, which causes controversy in terms of what to do with these people after the fact that. But it is heroic, and we are all called by our baptism to martyrdom. We're all called to die with Christ. We can rise like him. And it's always going to be complicated. And often the people who succeed are, like, not. They don't worth anything in the eyes of the world.

Taylor Kemp (18:41)

Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (18:41)

I mean, I think in the Church that we can. We can fall into the trap of thinking, you know, the people who are the most charismatic or the people who are on TV or the people like these are, you know, whatever, the stars of the faith. But when push comes to shove, it's.

Taylor Kemp (18:57)

The smallness of people who.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (19:01)

And this is why martyrdom is especially so beautiful. And this is why the Roman Canon is especially so beautiful, that we commemorate these, like, unknown people. I mean, some of those names, like, we don't even know.

Taylor Kemp (19:12)

Right.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (19:13)

Anything about them, but we know that they died for the faith and that that is at the heart of what it means to be united to the Eucharist. Right. That's at the heart of it, is that when you receive the Eucharist, you agree. When you say body of Christ, you say amen. You agree to be that body.

Taylor Kemp (19:30)

Yeah, that's where I'm going. Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (19:31)

And this. And this is what Blandina does in a very literal way. You know, later she's like, hung up on a stake and they say she looks like she's crucified and that the sight of her encourages all. All the other martyrs. This is a very literal, like, she became the body of Christ. But that's what we're all called to.

Taylor Kemp (19:48)

Yep, that's right. So I want to, before we close out here, Dr. Klein, you have had an image on your computer for a long time.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (19:54)

Yes.

Taylor Kemp (19:55)

Your desktop. And we have that image. So if you're listening to this on podcast, could you give the title of it?

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (20:01)

So, yeah. So if you, like, Google Mosaic of the arrival of Saint Pothinus. So this is one of my actually favorite churches of all time in Lyon. And they have these six beautiful mosaics on the wall, and they're supposed to be kind of like Mary's role in the history of Lyon. And the first one is a scene. It is a picture of the martyrs of Lyon, of Vienne. And then on the lower row are all the bishops of Lyon, which is just a very. I think it's a very powerful image of. It's both apostolic succession, but also kind of the martyrs as the cloud of witnesses which embrace this city and which are, you know, the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. So all this whole church really has grown up from the seed of the blood of these martyrs. And so in the image on the far left, there's like a guy engulfed in flame. That's John the Apostle. Okay, so, and then the second guy in row is Saint Polycarp, who is another martyr. So Saint Polycarp was bishop of Smyrna and he knew John the Apostle. And then the next guy who's arriving on the boat is Saint Pothinus, first bishop of Lyon, who was a disciple of Polycarp. So you have this apostolic session of John to Polycarp to Pothinus. And then the dude greeting him on the shore is St. Irenaeus of Lyon, the dude. And then all the rest of them are the other bishops. And then up in the heavenly register, you have the martyrs of Lyon, of Vienne. Blandina is the one who has like a bull's head because she was eventually killed by a bull. And they're all casting their crowns down before the feet of Christ in the center of the image with Mary and Jesus.

Taylor Kemp (21:29)

We're gonna need to do a sacred art on that to give a deeper look.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (21:33)

I think one of my favorites.

Taylor Kemp (21:35)

Check it out. Can you give the title one more time?

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (21:37)

So it's called the Arrival of St. Pothinus.

Taylor Kemp (21:40)

So check that out. Give it a Google and you can get some of Dr. Klein's commentary overlaid. Or hopefully if you're watching this, this will be pulled up. If you're listening, go look it up after the fact. But Dr. Klein, thank you so much. It was wonderful to learn about the martyrs of Lyon and Vienne. Do you have any parting comments?

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (21:55)

No remark. Stories Be edified.

Taylor Kemp (21:58)

They are very edifying. So thank you so much and we'll see you next time on Catholic Saints.

Podcast Host (22:04)

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