Saints Cyril & Methodius

Summary

Catholic Saints Podcast - Episode Summary

Episode: Saints Cyril & Methodius
Host: Dr. Carl Vennerstrom (Augustine Institute)
Guest: Dr. Elizabeth Klein & co-host
Date: February 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the remarkable lives, missions, and spiritual legacy of Saints Cyril and Methodius—the 9th-century Greek brothers venerated as the “Apostles to the Slavs.” Through an engaging conversational format, Dr. Carl Vennerstrom and Dr. Elizabeth Klein explore the brothers' contributions to evangelization, their linguistic innovations, and their enduring spiritual lessons. The discussion highlights their humility, perseverance, and the significance of translating the Christian message for local peoples.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Importance and Context of Saints Cyril and Methodius

• Feast day: February 14th, notably shared with St. Valentine.
• Connection to the Augustine Institute: Legal founding of the Institute coincided with their feast (02:01).
• Significance: Co-patrons of Europe (with St. Benedict); brought Christianity and literacy to Eastern Europe; revered especially in Slavic countries.

Early Lives and Call to Mission

• Origins: Both born in Greece, early 9th century.
• Names: Methodius (Michael) is the elder; Cyril (Constantine) is the younger and only adopts the name Cyril just before death (02:46).
• Relationships: Described as a complementary partnership—Cyril, the scholar and leader; Methodius, the steadfast and persevering.

The Philosopher’s Dream—Early Signs of Holiness

• Cyril’s Nickname “The Philosopher”:
  • At age 7, Cyril (Constantine) dreams of choosing “Sophia” (Wisdom) among the daughters of the city (05:04).
  • Quote:

    “Her name was Sophia. That is Wisdom. I chose her.”
    —Dr. Elizabeth Klein, reading from the saint’s life (05:15)

  • Symbolic betrothal to divine wisdom; sets the tone for Cyril’s intellectual and spiritual ministry.

Missionary Activity: To the Khazars and Moravians

• First Mission (860):

  • Sent to the Khazar people (a region with Jewish and Muslim influence).
  • Engages in complex theological debates, resembling “Jewish rabbinical debates” (06:05).
  • Methodius, ever-faithful, accompanies Cyril as his “slave, ready to die with him" (06:46).

• Major Mission (862):

  • Dispatched to Moravia to evangelize and consolidate Christianity among the Slavs.

Their Greatest Contribution: The Slavic Alphabet

• Invention of the Glagolitic (predecessor to Cyrillic) Alphabet:
  • Purpose: To translate the Scriptures and liturgy for the Slavic peoples (07:53).
  • Quote:

    "What they're most famous for is the creation of the Cyrillic alphabet, which is still used by many Eastern languages today."
    —Dr. Elizabeth Klein (08:09)

  • Reflects Christianity’s “incarnational principle”: adapting to and sanctifying local languages and cultures (08:21).

Conflict: Translation versus Tradition

• Tension with the German Church:

  • Germans insist on liturgy in Latin; Cyril and Methodius champion worship in the vernacular Slavic tongue (09:06).
  • Take the dispute to Rome; Pope Hadrian II ultimately supports use of the Slavic language in liturgy and scripture (10:21).

• Notable Moment:

  • Quote:

    "They celebrate Mass in St. Peter’s with the Slavic Gospel on the altar."
    —Dr. Elizabeth Klein’s co-host (10:36)

Challenges and Perseverance

• Ongoing Controversy:
  • Continued opposition arises after Cyril’s death; Methodius faces more friction but ultimately prevails in securing papal support for the Slavic liturgy (11:55).
• Methodius’s Endurance:
  • Tireless labor even “covered in sweat as if next to a stove” (12:47).

Theological and Ecclesial Significance

• Inculturation Principle:
  • Cyril and Methodius exemplify the tension—and harmony—between the universality of the Church and her incarnational flexibility in missions (13:29).
• “Trilinguist Heresy”:
  • German opponents claim only three languages (Hebrew, Greek, Latin) are fit for the liturgy (14:48).
  • Quote:

    “Cyril’s point is: Christ is King of the universe… we are commanded to spread his gospel to the ends of the earth.”
    —Dr. Elizabeth Klein (15:23)

Spiritual Lessons and Legacy

• Humility and Submission to the Church:

  • Cyril and Methodius are repeatedly “sent,” not self-appointed. They submit their actions and successes to papal approval, despite personal sacrifice and uncertainty (16:15).

• Trust in God’s Providence:

  • Acceptance of not seeing the fruits of their efforts:

    “Many saints die unsure of their own legacy… often the saint himself or herself doesn’t get to see that, and that’s part of… you’re trusting your story as part of the plan that God has.”
    —Dr. Elizabeth Klein’s co-host (18:13)

• Central Takeaway:

  • Pursuing divine Wisdom (like Cyril’s childhood vision) should precede all other human honors or successes (19:39).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Her name was Sophia. That is Wisdom. I chose her.”
  — Dr. Elizabeth Klein (05:15)

• On missionary translation:
  “There's kind of an incarnational principle... in distinction from Islam, where to truly read the Quran, you're supposed to read it in Arabic. ... [But] Christianity is something that is translated into other languages and cultures.”
  — Dr. Carl Vennerstrom (08:21)

• On persevering through opposition:
  “They repeatedly refer to the Germans as committing the trilinguist heresy... God only ordained Hebrew, Latin and Greek.”
  — Dr. Elizabeth Klein (14:48)

• On humility and ecclesial obedience:
  “I thought that just displayed great humility—like, well, we were sent here and these people seem to like us, but let’s just drop everything and go to Rome to make sure that this is what the will of God is for us.”
  — Dr. Elizabeth Klein (16:40)

• The wisdom focus:
  “But if you’re... betrothed to wisdom... If you’re seeking to have wisdom above all else, as Cyril is set up to be, then anything else in your life should be under that.”
  — Dr. Elizabeth Klein (18:58)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:18-02:34 — Intro, background on saints in academic teaching, personal connections
• 02:46-04:00 — Early life, names, family background
• 05:04-05:36 — The dream of Sophia/Wisdom and Cyril’s “philosopher” title
• 06:02-07:30 — Mission to the Khazars; theological debates
• 07:53-08:21 — Creation of the Slavic alphabet, importance for evangelization
• 09:02-11:29 — Conflict with German clergy; appeal to Rome; papal approval
• 11:52-13:10 — Methodius’s continuing mission after Cyril’s death, ecclesiastical struggles
• 13:29-15:25 — Universality vs. particularity in the Church; “trilinguist heresy”
• 16:15-18:13 — Obedience, humility, trust in God’s plan
• 18:33-19:47 — Legacy, spiritual takeaways, pursuit of Wisdom

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Conclusion & Lessons for Today

The episode closes with reflection on Cyril and Methodius as models of surrendering personal ambition in favor of God’s wisdom and the Church’s mission, even without seeing immediate results. Their story is an enduring call to humility, perseverance, and the sanctification of culture through faith.

Saints Cyril and Methodius, pray for us. (20:02)

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This summary covers the central themes, anecdotes, and insights from the conversation, allowing listeners and non-listeners alike to deeply appreciate the episode’s spiritual and historical richness.

Transcript

[Podcast Host/Producer]

You're listening to a podcast on Catholic Saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustine Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live and share their faith.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Hello and welcome to Catholic Saints, the podcast about the lives of the saints and their legacy for the church and for us. I am Dr. Carl Vennerstrom, and I'm joined today by Dr. Elizabeth Klein to talk about Saints Cyril and Methodius, beloved saints to the Slavs.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

That's right.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

And others. So I'm, I'm really glad to. To have you with me here today, Liz. Before we jump into Saints Cyril and Methodius, could you tell me a little bit how saints come up into your teaching here at the Gussen Institute?

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Oh, sure. I mean, whenever I can fit them in.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. What about you teach a class in the graduate school called Mystagogy. Did the saints come into the picture there? Yes.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Cyril and Methodius would highly approve of Mystagogy. So Mystagogy is a course on the sacraments, but emphasizing sort of the scriptural mysteries that the sacraments invite us into. And so for that class in particular, I have a whole session, for example.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

On the Fathers of the Church on the Eucharist and how they taught the Eucharist. But I definitely have a lot of patristic homilies and stuff that come up.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, that's beautiful. They're a rich resource for.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

For sure. And then it means I don't have to teach it.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

I just read them.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

That's the best way to teach.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

This is what Augustine recommends. He's like, oh, if you're not good at preaching, just read someone else's.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

So I take him up on it.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

You take that advice. That's beautiful.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah, I'm very excited to be talking about Cyril Methodius. I'm kind of surprised we haven't done them before. Yeah, they're pretty significant saints. Their feast day is February 14th. Kick in St. Valentine, Adeline. There's also an Augustine Institute connection with them because we came into existence under.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Law as a legal entity on February 14.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Did not know that.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Yeah, there you go. It's like in our handbook or something.

[Listener or Guest]

I happen to notice it.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

They are really important Eastern saints. They're not. There's not as much in English on them, but there's loads of stuff in.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Ukrainian and Russian on Cyril Methodius because they brought Christianity to Eastern Europe and.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Are really credited as the co patrons of Europe with St. Benedict.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

And also they're the patrons, for example, of the Ruthenian. Right. To which my husband belongs. So Cyril Methodius they're pretty awesome.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

They're pretty awesome. And there's more.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

There's a lot more.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Okay, let's start with the fact that they're Cyril and Methodius. So they're a pair.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

They're a pair. They're brothers.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Oh, brothers.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah, Cyril and Methodius are brothers. They were born in Greece in the early 9th century, actually. A lot of little things like where they were born and where exactly they went and who exactly made the alphabets controverted. It has a lot of. There's a lot of, like, Eastern identity stuff tied up with Cyril Methodius. But I'll just give you the basic facts. So Methodius is the older brother. His birth name was Michael, and Cyril.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Is the younger brother, whose birth name is actually Constantine.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

He only takes Cyril right before he dies.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

So he's mostly Constantine in the life.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Which is confusing because if you Google.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Life of Constantine, this life is not going to be what comes up.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

But anyway, yeah, there was another Constantine.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

There was another Constantine.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Long shadow. Yeah.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So he's the youngest of seven. His older brother enters the monastery first. But Methodius is usually kind of characterized.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

As the sidekick to Cyril, even though Methodius actually lived a lot longer and had a lot longer ministry in the East.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

But Cyril, I think, was the sort.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Of greater scholar and sort of the.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Speaker of the two. And he's the one who kind of pulled his brother out of the monastery.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

To travel around with him, evangelizing at.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

The request of the emperor, at the.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Request of various bishops.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So he gets kind of commissioned to.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Do a number of different missionary activities.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Okay, so what did those. Were those missionary activities look like?

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah. So after the death of their father, sort of a powerful minister in the imperial government takes over guardianship of Cyril, makes sure he has a really great education. And so he becomes renowned as a highly educated, highly learned Christian and good speaker. And so actually, throughout his life, he's.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Called the philosopher, sort of like he's Aristotle. It's like the philosopher said, which is pretty awesome.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And so actually, if you'll indulge me, I want to read a little story.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

From Cyril's life about why he's called the Philosopher.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

We will indulge you.

[Listener or Guest]

Excellent.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So this story had a surprise ending for me because I've read a lot.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Of Saints Lives, so I wasn't expecting.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

It to happen this way. Okay. So when he was 7, the child had a dream which he recounted to his father and mother saying, after the Strategos, which is like the minister. After the Strategos had assembled all the girls of our city, he said to me, choose her whom you wish as.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Your wife and help me from among them.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So I'm thinking the twist is he's.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Like, none of these. That's not what happens.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Gazing upon them and taking note of each one, I discerned the most beautiful.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Of all, with radiant face, richly adorned in gold necklaces and pearls and all manner of finery. Her name was Sophia. That is Wisdom. I chose her.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

I just love it.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Nailed it.

[Listener or Guest]

It's so good.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So after. That's kind of the backstory of why.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

He gets called the philosopher, because he's been betrothed to Wisdom. Sophia in Greek is Wisdom.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. That's awesome. My favorite saints are the saints who had a dream as children or their parents had a dream that somehow had to do with them, like avoiding marriage somehow. And this is maybe the best.

[Listener or Guest]

Yeah, it's like. It's like the twist. Double tw. Think he's not going to choose any. But then he chooses one. But the twist, it's Wisdom.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Lady Wisdom.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So the philosopher Cyril is sent in.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

The year 860 to the Khazar people.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So the Khazars are Jewish, but there's also a lot of Muslim influence at this time. So there's long sessions of his life where he's debating sort of Jewish philosophy as well as Islamic philosophy, which is super interesting. I've never read anything like it in a life like this. It almost read like Jewish rabbinical debates. There's interpretations of scripture I've never really.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Seen in a Christian context.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And it has to be, like, because.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Of the time period and, like, what the arguments of his opponents were.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

But anyway, I was really interested in it, but I didn't make heads or.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Tails everything that he said.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah, but they thought he was awesome.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

And dominated in all of the debates.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And Methodius is sent along with him, but he's described as his brother's slave.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Ready to die with him.

[Listener or Guest]

So he's apparently a really good older brother.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, I know. Well, this is. It is kind of like an Old Testament story.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah, that's true.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

The older brother.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

That is true. And then Methodius apparently wrote down all these debates in eight discourses, but I don't know where that text is, if it still exists.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

But it sounded cool.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

And that's maybe the difficulty for us with these saints, that a lot of the translations or scholarship would be done in Russia.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah. And even this life was a bit hard to get a hold of. I think it's from, like, the Michigan.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Slavic translation Series from, like, the seventies.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Okay. Yeah.

[Listener or Guest]

Interlibrary. Loan it. Yeah, but you too, can interlive.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Very loan.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Okay. So that's kind of his first mission, which is a success, and the Khazars are convinced. But then in 862, he's sent to Moravia. So Christianity is already there, but they're sent to sort of spread it and teach it. And that's when they did their most.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Famous work, which was inventing the Slavic.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Alphabet, also called the Glagolitic Alphabet or Cyrillic characters.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Can you say glagolitic one more time?

[Listener or Guest]

Glagolitic.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Amazing.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So that's like, what they're most famous for is the creation of the Cyrillic.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Alphabet, which are still. Which is still used by many Eastern languages today.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

But they did it at the service.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Of translating the Scriptures and translating the liturgy.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

So that was the goal of the creation of the Alphabet.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

And this is something kind of amazing about Christian missions from the earliest times until now, really. Right. That Christianity is something that is translated into other languages and cultures. There's kind of an incarnational principle.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Totally. I was thinking about that with, like, the word, you know, becomes flesh. And this happens again and again in Christ missionaries.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. And it's like, in distinction from Islam where, like, to truly read the Quran, you're supposed to read it in Arabic. So you need, like, a school of Arabic.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Well, this is a very interesting point because this actually comes up. This is a point of contention.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Their translation of the liturgy and the Bible into the Slavic language.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Do tell.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

They run afoul of the Germans, as one does.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Naturally.

[Listener or Guest]

It happens to the best of us.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Tale as old as time.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So the Germans are also wanting to.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Evangelize this area, which is adjacent to their territory, in Latin, and they want the ecclesiastical authority there.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And so they tell Cyril Methodius that.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

They can't evangelize there, even though they're having more success in using the native language.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So good sons of the church, they resolve the conflict by going to Rome.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

So smart.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

They travel to visit Pope Hadrian ii. And sometimes. This is a mistake on the Wikipedia.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Article if you go look it up.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

They'Re invited by Pope Nicholas, the venial.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Sin of Wikipedia, as Dr. Boom said.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

They'Re invited by Pope Nicholas. But by the time they get there.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

They'Re welcomed by Pope Hadrian ii.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And in order to soften his papal heart, they bring along with them the.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Relics of St. Clement, who's one of the earliest popes of Rome.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And apparently Cyril miraculously discovered the relics of Saint Clement and There's a document he wrote about this miraculous discovery that.

[Listener or Guest]

I also couldn't find. But it sounds amazing.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

We'll tell you that on the follow up, Episode two.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So the Pope is sympathetic to their cause. He sides with them. He gives them the right to use.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

The vernacular, the common language in the liturgy, and to translate the scriptures. Wow.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

And they.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

To kind of capstone this. They celebrate Mass in St. Peter's with.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

The Slavic Gospel on the altar, which is really cool.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

That is amazing.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And the Pope himself then ordains Methodius, a priest.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

At that time, he's still just a monk hanging out, slave, brother to Cyril.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And Cyril, when he's in Rome, feels illness coming on, he takes the monastic robe, takes a vow, and dies near.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Rome 50 days later. Yeah.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Where he is buried?

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Where?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

He's buried in San Clemente in St.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Clement for bringing the relics.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

So he's buried in San Clemente in Rome. So you can go check it out.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

An amazing church in a double sense, because the medieval church above is beautiful and there's an amazing image of the crucifixion that's very verdant with.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And then the crypt is where St. Cyril is, right?

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

And then, yeah, St. Cyril's down in the crypt. And then actually below both of those, there's like an. A very ancient Mithraic temple.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Wow.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Which is kind of creepy.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

The philosopher is on top of it, right?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, he's keeping us safe.

[Listener or Guest]

He's keeping it on lockdown.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Okay, so then Cyril's. That's it. Cyril's out of the picture.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

All right. But then what's the controversy? The Pope decided.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So Methodius continues. He gets sent back to Moravia and he's made a bishop and he keeps evangelizing. But then the next Pope, there's friction again. The Germans are still complaining. There's still debates over it. For a time, the Pope sides with the Germans and forbids the use of the Slavic language. But this is kind of a back and forth. And eventually Methodius prevails and gains the sort of undivided support of the papacy in their mission. And so it's. It's not. I mean, it's a lot more complicated than just sort of the simple story of it, but there is a back and forth that I think Methodius.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Cyril and Methodius both shows that of remarkable humility and perseverance.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So the Life describes Methodius as working so hard that he was covered in.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Sweat as if next to a stove. Wow.

[Listener or Guest]

Until you've worked hard enough for the gospel that you're covered in sweat as if next to a stove, you know, you haven't quite made it.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. Our faculty office don't reflect this reality, so it might. Yeah.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So it's like, it's cool to look back and say, like, wow, like, they.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Had a really successful mission. They invented a whole language to evangelize, like this whole group of people that still hold them in such honor. But of course, the actual on the ground was more complicated, and in some.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Sense, like, Cyril lost his life on.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

The first papal pilgrimage, and then Methodius has to sort of continue on after.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, well, and I really like about this story that there's. There is a tension between the. The universality of the church, but then its constituent parts and the. The Pope. And here he is in this story is the head, which holds things together in a practical sense with teaching, but then in a symbolic sense, too. And if we were going to represent him with a language, the language would be Latin. Right. And there's. There's something really beautiful about. About people all across the world. You have the. The liturgy in this in the same language. And maybe you have, like, priests from various nations who all could at least read Latin. Right. Or, yeah, in earlier times could speak it to each other. But then. So there's something to the German point, maybe it's like the. The Roman Church is this universal church, and yet the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, sides with the particular part and its language.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And part of it was. I mean, it was more successful, for one thing, than the previous Latin times. But it was, as you said, it was controversial. So in the life, they repeatedly refer.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

To the Germans as committing the trilinguist heresy.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Because they.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

The trilinguist.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

The trilinguist heresy because they say, well.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

God only ordained Hebrew, Latin and Greek.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

As they also call this the pilotist heresy, because Pilate put Aramaic, Latin and.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Greek on the sign.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And so. Which I thought was super spicy.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

But it's interesting because, like, on the one hand, you can see there is.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Like a hallowing of history and we have to go back to the original languages when we're doing scholarship, for example.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

But Cyril's point is, like, Christ is.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

King of the universe.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And so Pilate made the mistake of.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Thinking he was only King of the Jews, but he's actually king, king everywhere. And we are commanded to spread his gospel to the ends of the earth.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And so that tension you're pointing out.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Between making sure it's the authentic gospel that God gave us in history, but also translating it in a way that it can reach all times and places, is sort of like the quintessential work of the missionary.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, yeah. And quintessentially Christian.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah. And this is really too. So, you know, obviously they have this amazing legacy as evangelizing a whole group.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Of people and inventing an Alphabet.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

But one thing I thought about them and sort of their legacy is how much they surrender to the will of the Church. I mean, they're sent on their mission. Like, they don't invent this mission.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

They don't drum up a desire to go.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

They're sent. And then when they're sent, they're confronted.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

With all these difficulties, and then they.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Submit themselves to the judgment of the Pope.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

And the Pope didn't speak their language.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

He wasn't from their part of the world. And so I thought that that just, like, displayed great humility. Like, well, we were sent here and.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

These people seem to like us, but let's just drop everything and go to Rome to make sure that this is what the will of God is for us.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And in a lot of ways, like.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Methodius kind of surrenders Cyril to that mission.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, yeah. I was in one of Augustine's expositions of the Psalms I was reading recently, and it's involved in the. He's talking about the Donatist controversy. These people who were. Who were separated and thought they were holier than other groups and all that, and it was because they were upset at what other people in the Church had done. And Augustine says something that I thought was very profound, that if the Church teaches you anything, it should teach you not to trust human beings, like, put your trust in God. And that might kind of sound like, don't worry what other human beings say or think or do, but it's kind of the opposite of it. It's like, exactly what they did that. It's like, we're going to refer this to our authority, and we're going to do it trusting in God, because, like.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

The will of God is going to prevail, even though you may not see it. And this is something that comes up again and again in the lives of the saints when we've done these podcasts, is that many saints die unsure of their own legacy.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Right. So Cyril dies in Rome, really kind of unsure what the future of the mission to the Slavs is going to be.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And that's so often that we are.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Able to look back and see this really clear legacy and all the work they did. But often the saint himself or herself doesn't get to See that, and that's part of exactly what you're saying, that you're trusting your story as part of the plan that God has, whether or not you see it or it goes the way you think it ought to at any given time.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Right, yeah. That seems like a very good lesson for us to take from Saints Cyril and Methodius that it's like most of the stuff in our lives, it feels like sometimes you're gonna like pour all this energy into this thing and we often don't see the fruits of it and we don't know if there ever will be fruits.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

But, but if you're hope, if you're betrothed to wisdom.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

If you're seeking to have wisdom above all else, as Cyril is set up to be, then all those other, anything.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Else in your life should be sort of under that.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. We have our own sort of like personal wisdom and our eyes can see a certain distance, but if we're submitted to. To Wisdom herself.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Lady Wisdom.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

To Lady Wisdom with her fine jewels, we can rest easy.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So, yeah, I think those are already some things that we, we can take away to prayer, sort of surrender to the will of God, surrendering our own idea of maybe what success looks like in our own life, and putting the.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Pursuit of God's wisdom before the honors of men or before the so wisdom humanly called.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Well, I think that's a very beautiful place to close. It's been a joy. Liz, as always, thank you for joining us on Catholic Saints. Saints Cyril and Methodius.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein's Husband or Co-host]

Pray for us.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Pray for us.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

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