St. Agnes of Rome

Summary

Catholic Saints Podcast

Episode: St. Agnes of Rome

Host: Taylor Kemp
Guest: Dr. Elizabeth Klein
Date: January 21, 2026

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Overview

This episode focuses on St. Agnes of Rome, a famed early Christian virgin-martyr whose steadfast faith and youthful courage have made her an enduring symbol of Christian witness, especially for consecrated virgins. Taylor Kemp and scripture scholar Dr. Elizabeth Klein explore what we know about Agnes’s life, her significance in Church tradition, and how her martyrdom illustrates deeper themes of sacrifice, devotion, and the Christian call to witness.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Historical St. Agnes

• Agnes as a Household Name
  • Many know her as a saint, but Dr. Klein points out that details about her life are often sparse, typical of early martyrs whose stories are interwoven with legend ([01:36]).
• What We Know
  • Agnes lived c. 291–304 and died at around age 12 during the Diocletian persecution ([02:49]).
  • Evidence from St. Ambrose’s "Concerning Virgins" (c. 375) provides the earliest commentary close to her lifetime, lending legitimacy to her story ([02:02]).
• Noble Background
  • Likely a Roman citizen from a noble family, suggested by her execution (beheading—a privilege given to citizens), paralleling St. Paul ([02:49]).
  • Agnes’s age (12) was significant, as that was the legal age for marriage in the Roman Empire, tying her story to the tension between earthly and divine marriage.

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Ambrose on Agnes: The Power of Her Witness

• Ambrose’s Praise
  • Dr. Klein reads a powerful passage from Ambrose, reflecting on Agnes’s courage and spiritual maturity:

    “She who had no room for the blow of the iron possessed enough to conquer iron.”
    – Ambrose, via Klein ([03:19])

  • Ambrose elevates Agnes as an exemplar for other consecrated virgins, capturing both her physical vulnerability and her extraordinary spiritual strength ([03:07–05:45]).
• Notable Quote:

  “She was fearless under the cruel hands of the executioners...she answered, ‘It would be an injury to my spouse to look on anyone as likely to please me. He who chose me first for himself shall receive me. Why are you delaying, executioner? Let this body perish which can be loved by eyes which I would not.’”
  – St. Ambrose, as read by Dr. Klein ([04:17])

The Tradition of Her Martyrdom

• Driven by fidelity to Christ, Agnes refused marriage proposals and sacrifice to pagan gods, leading to her denunciation and martyrdom ([06:35]).
• Her witness was marked by the offering of her virginity as a sign of total consecration to Christ ([07:59]).

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Agnes’s Legacy in the Church

• Inclusion in the Roman Canon
  • Agnes is prominently named in the Roman Canon (Eucharistic Prayer I), signifying her veneration from the earliest centuries ([10:01–11:13]).
  • All martyrs in the canon are presented as the saints most fully conformed to Christ’s sacrifice in the Eucharist.
• Martyrdom and the Eucharist
  • Dr. Klein explores the theological link:

    “A martyr is most fully conformed to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist makes martyrs.”
    – Dr. Klein ([11:23])

  • The reception of the Eucharist, says Augustine (as cited by Klein), is a call for us to become what we receive—even to offer ourselves completely, as in martyrdom ([12:56–14:52]).
• Virginity as Total Consecration
  • Ambrose writes,

    “Virginity is not praiseworthy because it is found in martyrs, but because itself makes martyrs.”
    – Ambrose, as cited by Dr. Klein ([13:27])

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Relevance and Takeaways for Today

• Steadfastness in Faith
  • Taylor Kemp:

    “She has a steadfastness—that she would endure till the end. Perseverance is part and parcel of the Christian life.” ([18:58])

• Learning from Youth and Childlike Faith
  • Christian humility involves learning from the example of children, who exhibit trust and detachment, both crucial to Agnes’s martyrdom ([19:15–21:53]).
  • Kemp reflects on Christ’s words:

    “Unless you become like a little child, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.” ([19:54])

• Public Witness and Preparation for Sacrifice
  • Dr. Klein encourages listeners to regard the Christian life as ongoing preparation for witness, whether dramatic or ordinary ([21:53]):

    “To still think about the Christian life as like a training for martyrdom seems helpful… to be thinking about that as like the archetypal Christian hero.”

• Eucharist as Source and Strength
  • The grace to make sacrifices comes from the Eucharist—“the greatest gift given to us to make these sacrifices possible” ([22:58]).
• Enduring Memory of the Saints
  • “People who are famous in this life for being rich or powerful are probably not going to be remembered very long... but the saints are glorious forever.”
    – Dr. Klein ([18:33])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Comment | |-----------|-----------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:17 | St. Ambrose (read by Klein) | "He who chose me first for himself shall receive me. Why are you delaying, executioner? Let this body perish which can be loved by eyes which I would not." | | 13:27 | Dr. Klein quoting Ambrose | “Virginity is not praiseworthy because it is found in martyrs, but because itself makes martyrs.” | | 11:23 | Dr. Klein | “A martyr is most fully conformed to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist makes martyrs.” | | 14:52 | Taylor Kemp | “This is God’s work in her… it begins in this offering to God, and for any of the martyrs there’s just this offering of self that takes so many forms.” | | 18:33 | Dr. Klein | “The saints are glorious forever.” | | 21:39 | Dr. Klein | “They just assume—everything will take care of me. And everything’s gonna be fine.” |

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Art, Devotion, and Symbolism

• Symbol of the Lamb
  Agnes’s name (from “agnus,” Latin for lamb) connects her to Christ, as she became like a sacrificial lamb ([17:06]).
• Pallium Tradition
  On her feast, lambs are blessed in Rome and their wool is used for the pallium, worn by archbishops as a symbol of communion with the Pope ([17:19]).
• Artistic Representation
  Dr. Klein describes the mosaics of Church martyrs in Ravenna, which embody the theme of the saints processing toward the Eucharist, “bringing their crowns to the altar with you” ([23:37]).
• In the Augustine Institute Chapel
  St. Agnes’s statue is one of the four prominent ones—reflecting her status as a model of faith.

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Practical Takeaways

• Perseverance is essential in Christian living, as modeled by Agnes even at 12 years old ([18:58]).
• Be open to learning from youth; there’s spiritual wisdom in childlike trust and detachment ([19:54–21:39]).
• Live in detachment and train for witness—daily penances and sacrifices prepare us for more radical offerings ([16:32], [21:53]).
• The Eucharist is our strength, uniting us to Christ and to the martyrs ([22:58]).
• Honor the saints: Their legacies endure “not for wealth or worldly glory, but for their heroic love of God” ([18:33]).

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction and Significance of St. Agnes – [01:07–02:47]
• Earliest Sources and Ambrose’s Testimony – [02:47–05:45]
• Meaning of Her Martyrdom: Marriage to Christ – [06:35–08:35]
• Agnes in the Roman Canon and the Eucharist – [10:01–14:52]
• Linking Martyrdom, Virginity, Penitential Practice – [13:23–16:32]
• Learning from Childlike Faith, Detachment – [19:15–21:53]
• Art, Lamb Symbolism, Ravenna Mosaic – [17:06], [23:37]
• Key Takeaways and Last Reflections – [18:57–24:47]

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Conclusion

Dr. Klein and Taylor Kemp’s discussion of St. Agnes of Rome offers a multifaceted portrait: Agnes as a courageous child-martyr; a celebrated model for consecrated virginity; a perpetual witness to the call to total self-gift; and a pillar of the Church’s memory, celebrated in art, liturgy, and tradition. Her story challenges listeners to deeper perseverance, detachment, and Eucharistic union—whatever their calling or age.

St. Agnes, pray for us!

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

You're listening to a podcast on Catholic Saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustine Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live, and share their faith.

[Taylor Kemp]

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Catholic Saints, the podcast about the lives of the saints and their legacy for the church and for us. I'm Taylor Kemp, your host, and I'm joined today by Dr. Elizabeth Klein.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Hi, Taylor.

[Taylor Kemp]

Dr. Klein. I used to do Catholic Saints podcasts and I don't get to do them anymore. And now we're back together again.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

It's true. This is very fun.

[Taylor Kemp]

I am so excited. Are you as excited as I am?

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

I am as excited as you are.

[Taylor Kemp]

I can hear it. I can hear your voice audience out there. We know you are excited as well. Okay. Dr. Klein, have you ever done a podcast or a class or a anything on Saint Agnes of Rome before? I was trying to think if you did it in the martyrs series.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Not specifically. I don't think I've specifically talked about St. Agnes. I have done a lot of work on early Christian martyrs, but not St. Agnes in particular, I don't think.

[Taylor Kemp]

Sweet. It's a first. All right, so everybody, today we are talking about St. Agnes of Rome. Her feast day is on January 21st and her dates are 291 to 304. My daughter is named Agnes, but as Dr. Klein asked me, is she named after St. Agnes of Rome? She is not. She is named after Mother Teresa. But we love St. Agnes too. Okay, so, Dr. Klein, where should we begin when we're talking about St. Agnes?

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah, I know. I think St. Agnes is a kind of a household name. She's a well known saint, but people might not know much about her or at least might not know how we get any information about St. Agnes. A lot of these early Christian martyrs, we might just know they're martyrs, but we don't have a whole lot of information until long after their death, other than that they died for the faith. And sometimes you can even get some pretty incredible legends associated with them, but they may or may not really reflect the actual story. But in St. Agnes's case, it's really cool because we actually have a comment about her in a text of St. Ambrose quite close to the the time that she died. And Taylor has another child named Ambrose. This is a very cool connection.

[Taylor Kemp]

Was not.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Connection was not planned. And actually the reason I specifically wanted to do Agnes or think about her. Well, for one thing, that we have this sort of relic from Ambrose about her, but also we have a statue of St Agnes now in our chapel. We do it is a really interesting collection. We have these beautiful new marble statues here in our chapel. And we have the Sacred Heart, Joseph, Mary and Agnes.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yes.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And so I was like, I feel like we should probably up our devotion to Agnes since she made the top four sort of statues in the chapel.

[Taylor Kemp]

She's prominently placed in our chapel.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

She is. So Agnes is a virgin martyr and she was killed around 12 years old. She died under the persecution of Diocletian, also called the Great Persecution. So listeners of the podcast might remember talking about this before when I've done other martyrs. But the persecution of Diocletian is kind of the first empire wide sanctioned persecution of Christians. Diocletian thought, we got to tighten up the ship here. This is sort of a threat to the empire to have these strange new religions. And so he requires all Christians to make public sacrifice to the gods or suffer imprisonment or suffer death. And so she died in that persecution. And we know that she from Ambrose, that she was killed by beheading, which means she was a Roman citizen. So Roman citizens had the right to be killed by the sword. This is also true of someone like St. Paul. Whereas non Roman citizens, slaves, people of lesser status, could be thrown to the beasts or have all kinds of things happen to them. So the tradition is that she's likely from a noble family, which seems like a good bet since she's obviously eligible for marriage, which we'll come back to. Anne was beheaded. So as I already mentioned, we don't have often a ton of information about the early martyrs, but we have this great reference from Ambrose of Milan. This is around the year 375, so certainly within living memory of St. Agnes. And he writes about her in this little work called Concerning Virgins. He writes it to his sister who is a consecrated virgin. So it's also some of our earliest evidence of sort of the formalization of consecrated virginity. And he praises Agnes at the beginning of the letter because he happens to be writing on her feast day. And so he sets her up as sort of this great exemplar to consecrated virgins. So I just want to read a little part of that letter, that introduction from Ambrose. If you're someone who prays the office of Readings, you'll find that on St. Agnes's feast day. But I have, the section I have is from a different translation. So this is like, I don't know, this is going to be a really characteristic professor thing, the translation in the divine office. It's fine, but it's in Ambrose's letter. It's like, really high rhetoric. It's like, very beautiful Latin, and I feel like the office translated it to be understandable, which makes sense, but it loses some of the rhetorical force, so it's a different translation. Okay. So about Agnes. She is said to have suffered martyrdom when 12 years old. The more hateful was the cruelty which spared not so tender an age. The greater, in truth, was the power of faith, which found evidence even in that age. Was there room for a wound in that small body? And she who had no room for the blow of the iron possessed enough to conquer iron, which I thought was really a beautiful line. But maidens of that age are unable to bear even the angry looks of parents and are wont to cry at the pricks of a needle as though they were wounds, which is true. She was fearless under the cruel hands of the executioners. She was unmoved by the heavy weight of the creaking chains, offering her whole body to the sword of the raging soldier, as yet ignorant of death, but ready for it. What threats the executioner used to make her fear him. What allurements to persuade her. How many desired that she would come to them in marriage. But she answered, it would be an injury to my spouse to look on anyone as likely to please me. He who chose me first for himself shall receive me. Why are you delaying, executioner? Let this body perish which can be loved by eyes which I would not. She stood, she prayed, she bent down her neck. You can see the executioner tremble as though he himself had been condemned. And his right hand shake, his face grow pale as he feared the peril of another, while the maiden feared not for her own. You have then in one victim, a twofold martyrdom of modesty and of religion. She both remained a virgin and she obtained martyrdom. So I thought that that was just really powerful. Obviously, he's trying to draw the pathos of her agent innocence, but also such beautiful early evidence of the complete devotion to Christ as spouse. So because of this comment here he makes about all the suitors that were seeking her by tradition, it's thought that it was because of her suitors that she was handed over. So a suitor. This is a kind of common trope in martyrdom stories and doesn't mean it's not true, because we know from someone like Maria Goretti this happens. But the idea is, you know, she was sort of refused proposals of marriage because she was a Christian and she was a consecrated virgin. So the slighted man sort of reports her or hands her over we don't know for sure that's what happened, but it seems not implausible. But it could also be that she, for whatever reason, other reason, is brought before the judge and refuses the sacrifice despite appeals to try to marry her. So things like this happen in some of the other martyrdom stories. Especially if the person is young. Their family members will try to say, oh, no, like she was led astray or like she's gonna like, think of your son. Think of, think of the marriage you could have. And they try to sort of pull them away by that. So it's like one of those. But it's obviously that mar. The marriage to Christ versus marriage in the world is part of the tension. Because the fact that she's 12 is significant because 12 was the legal age that you could marry in the Roman Empire. So it is something to do with the fact that she's like come of age, she's eligible, but then chooses to marry Christ over these other suitors. So that's kind of what we know about her life.

[Taylor Kemp]

Do we know any. Do we know much about her family?

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

No, I don't think we really know. I think this. I mean, there are legendary stories about what happened, but this is the sort of closest to the actual time, like the actual information that we have about her.

[Taylor Kemp]

And I'm just thinking, like, obviously we don't know. I'm just thinking about like this young, innocent little girl, like 12 year old that's a little girl. And I'm just thinking like, my kids are a lot younger than that. But I'm just like, where are her parents?

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Well, her parents might have been there. This is like, if anyone has read the Passion of Perpetual and Felicity, Perpetua's older. She's probably like in her early 20s. But her father is there at the trial and he's trying to convince her not to do it. But we're not told in this particular. I mean, Ambrose is praising her for her martyrdom and virginity. He's not really concerned to like detail all the parts of the story. So we kind of just get a little glimpse.

[Taylor Kemp]

No, it just makes me. Yeah, right. It's just like a curiosity of, as a parent, like, if you think about the parents, you know, the courageous mother in Second Maccabees, that's like encouraging her kids to martyrdom, fidelity to God. And then there's so many stories of the saints where the parents are trying to like sway the saint away from like, just stay alive, stay alive. So it just made me wonder of like, man, this like Innocent little girl, what was going on. But it's. It's. It's both tragic and heroic and beautiful in its end state of sacrifice and love for the bridegroom.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah, it's interesting, I mean, because the vow is made. She obviously, Ambrose implies she's made a vow to Virginia. She's made a vow of marriage to Christ. It's hard to know then if she's a convert or of her own accord or if her family has raised her as a Christian. But, I mean, something that strikes me about Agnes, as with other early Christian martyrs, is this the steadfastness which he draws attention to, where they have such a clear sense of what the Lord is asking them to do and of what the Lord is calling them. You know, we. And a lot of people in the Diocletian persecution didn't have that clarity. But this is what makes sort of Agnes a great hero. And she's so well known even in her own time. You know, she's one of the martyrs named in the Roman canon, which we call today Eucharistic Prayer 1. And so that's probably one reason why people are very familiar with her name. But that shows that she was already in a really privileged list of names. So the Roman Canon, that list of names in the Eucharistic prayer, is an authorized sort of list of saints that could be read at the liturgy. And so canon, like the canon of Scripture, refers to, like an authorized list. And so that's. That canon is already established in the 4th century and in the form that we know it, basically by the seventh century. And so the fact that she's sort of a hallowed key martyr, key witness of the faith that's read during the liturgy is. Is really powerful. And it also shows this really close connection between martyrdom and the Eucharist that I've probably mentioned before on the podcast. But all of the martyrs or all of the saints named in the canon are martyrs, which you may not have noticed, but they're all martyrs. And so Ambrose says, because it's on her feast day, that he's writing this, right? So he says also in that letter, it is the birthday of a martyr. Let us offer the victim. And so he's already kind of alluding to perhaps that she's included in the canon, that the most fitting thing you can do in honor of a martyr is offer the Ursic sacrifice, because they were most fully conformed to that sacrifice. And so you find this theme all over the place in the third and fourth centuries. The idea that a Martyr is most fully conformed to the Eucharist and that the Eucharist makes martyrs. This is like a really close connection. Yeah. You find it in Ignatius of Antioch, you find it in Polycarp, you find it in Cyprian, Augustine. It's all over the place. In fact, one really cool example of this, I was telling our chaplain this. I don't know if he really appreciated this, but Augustine, when Augustine interprets the saying to Peter, feed my sheep, he's like. Well, I mean, like, priest kinda gives the Eucharist, but really that's like Christ giving it through him. When Christ commands, peter, feed my sheep, he means be a martyr.

[Taylor Kemp]

Oh.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

He's like. And that's what it follows in the passage, right?

[Taylor Kemp]

He talks about Peter's martyrdom. You will. Yeah, right. You will not dress yourself. You will be.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

You'll be led where you'd not want to go. And so he's saying what he's saying, like, if Peter is going to feed the people himself, it doesn't mean just that he gives Eucharist, he becomes it. Like, he becomes the Eucharistic offering in martyrdom. And so I was like, you know.

[Taylor Kemp]

I could see the chaplain being like.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Happy ordination day, man.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yeah, martyrdom awaits. Well, but this is true.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Of all martyrs, not just of what was said to Peter that, you know, Augustine will say, he quotes some proverbs in the Septuagint version, that the one who stretches out his hand to the table is prepared to offer himself the same things. So he said, by receiving the Eucharist, what you're doing is preparing yourself to set the table. You're preparing yourself to give everything. And that's sort of its function. So another thing Ambrose says about this connection between sort of Eucharist and martyrdom and also, like, preparation to be a martyr. He says about Agnes, virginity is not praiseworthy because it is found in martyrs, but because itself makes martyrs. So he's saying, like, virginity as such is this special sign of being totally dedicated to God. And being totally dedicated to God prepares you to offer your life. Like it prepares you to be a complete sacrifice. And I just think that's really beautiful. And also sort of speaks to her name in the canon. And then what are we supposed to be thinking about, you know, when we receive communion? Because I think it's easy to think simply that we're being given something, which we obviously are. It's a great gift. We're being given something. But ultimately, the goal of the Eucharist is for Christ to make us into himself. Right. He gives us himself so that we can be with him in complete union, which is what the martyrs do.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yeah. And you know, I was just thinking about like this really, it's such an incredible story and it's easy to kind of sterilize some of the martyr stories. But like this is just, it's a little girl, like it's a, she's a 12 year old girl and you're like just thinking about how much courage it would take, how much love it would take, how much perseverance for like pick, pick virtue. Insert. So just recognizing like that this is God's work in her. Right. That that's true of all the martyrs. Obviously this is God's work in the saints and that it begins in this offering to God and that you know, Augustine or Ambrose is pulling on her offering of virginity. But for any of the martyrs there's just this offering of self that takes so many forms. And so you know, for us today, like how we can offer to God all these little things.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Right.

[Taylor Kemp]

Like I love St. Teresa of Avila. I think it is, she's like even just delaying by a couple minutes getting a cup of water can contribute to like your ability to offer your will to God. Yeah.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

I feel like you plugged into this phrase anything. Right. For doing penance is not praiseworthy because it is found in martyrs, but because itself makes martyrs.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yes.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Right. This is, you know, for Lent or for any penitential season, we give up things that are good. Not because that in and of itself is praiseworthy, but, but because it allows us, it prepares us to be detached so that we can live sacrificially. And obviously being consecrated is a, is a prime sign of this. But there's lots of ways that we can live it out as, as lay people or whatever our state of life is.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yeah. And those penances, whatever, like whether it's virginity or small things, it's it. Yeah. Right. This is the path to Christian freedom. These detachments are not, they're not detachments for the sake of themselves, but they free us from, to more freely offer and more fully offer to God ourselves. And so it's just incredible to kind of be thinking about this like 12 year old girl.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah. It's also interesting, what age was Jesus the founding. Founding in the temples, like around this age too.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yeah. 12.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah. Well, it's really hard to, I mean it's like for anyone who's a parent, it's kind of hard to believe that this is possible. But there are other examples. Right. Like some Dominic Savio or other kids.

[Taylor Kemp]

Who just have this, the Fatima kids.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

By this grace, very young, really clear sense of what God is calling them to. And her sort of innocence combined with her name and her age has I think, really made her very iconic as a martyr. As her name, as I'm sure listeners know, or at least some listeners know, means lamb agnus. And so Ambrose, commenting on the name, says it's almost like not human because it so predicts her offering that she became a lamb like Christ. And so often if you see her depicted, she is depicted holding a lamb and then this is more trivial, but it's cool. On the feast of St. Agnes, I think this is super cool. They bring lambs to Rome that are blessed by the Pope and then the wool of those lambs are used to make the pallium, or palia is the plural. And the pallium is like this like Y shaped stole that's worn specifically by archbishops to show that they're in union with the Pope and that they are in charge of like a chief see. So if you've ever seen like icons of like Eastern bishops, you might see kind of like this Y shaped like thing with crosses on it. You can also look it up. But that's also associated with Agnes. So it's kind of amazing. These, like, I thought about this a lot with the lives of the saints. It's like people who are famous in this life for being rich or powerful are probably not going to be remembered very long, like maybe a couple hundred years. But the saints are glorious forever.

[Taylor Kemp]

They abide. Yes, they abide in Christ.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And it's kind of amazing that she has multiple churches dedicated to her in Rome. She has this tradition associated with her, all because of the giving of her life, you know, 17, 1800 years ago.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yep. All right, I got a couple takeaways in mind.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

All right.

[Taylor Kemp]

You said the first one. Just like, just she has a steadfastness like that she would endure till the end. So just recognizing how part and parcel with the Christian life perseverance is and that that can be exemplified at a young age is the first one.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah. I think part of that is also being open to learning from those who are younger. I mean, it's part of Christian humility to learn from exemplars of different races, ages, times, places. Never feel like it's not relevant or never to feel like you can't get something from it. And that's actually really hard. You know, society is full of all kinds of hierarchies of one kind or Another. And so to open yourself up to seeing virtue or goodness in somebody who's different, younger, someone you don't like, is, I think, really important to cultivating Christian.

[Taylor Kemp]

Virtue and especially with kids, even to expect it. Like, you know, I've always. I'm currently working through a book on St Therese and St Therese's spirituality. You know, she has her little way, et cetera, et cetera. But one of the key Gospel passages that she is building on is, unless you become like a little child, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. So Christ even helps us understand, like, there is something incredibly important, in an abiding sense, in looking to be childlike, which we can learn from children, both in terms of their kind of natural dispositions, but then also because they. I even seeing this in, like, signs in my own kids who are really, really little. Like, they have such a depth of spiritual, like, understanding that is closer to childlikeness, not childishness and piety. That is, like, really a witness to me that I'm like, they love God so much better than I do.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Some kids.

[Taylor Kemp]

Some kids. Some kids. Not your kid. Yeah.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

No. I think there's one thing definitely about kids that relates to sort of Agnes and martyrdom is that kids, although kids can be really petty and, like, attached to their toys or whatever, they. They have a kind of natural detachment in that they are blissfully unaware of, like, who pays the bills and where the food comes from. And they have. But what comes with that is they just have this complete trust in you. Like, they just assume.

[Taylor Kemp]

It's like, total abandon.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

It's like, total abandonment to Mom. Like, I broke this, but mom will be able to fix it. You're like, actually, I can't, and I'm not buying a new one.

[Taylor Kemp]

Like, you know, tears ensue. Yeah.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah, exactly. But they. They just assume, like, they assume that.

[Taylor Kemp]

Everything that will take care of me.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And everything's gonna be fine.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Like, they don't. I mean, I know that there are obviously extreme circumstances of kids that go through really tough things, but by and large, they just trust that they're gonna be fine. And that's really amazing.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yep.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And we should have that same confidence that God is gonna take care of me and he knows what's best, but we are so full of cares as compared to them. And that does seem to me that there is a certain predisposition to detachment at that age. And then I guess another takeaway is sort of just the enduring importance of public witness to Christ that they said the martyrs of the seeds of the Church is what Tertullian says. And hopefully, you know, we won't be called to red martyrdom, but there is a sort of, if you. But to still think about the Christian life as like a training for martyrdom seems helpful because you don't know when your life is going to be taken or you don't know when you're going to be in a situation where you're asked to stand up for your faith in a dramatic way or in a small way. And so to kind of be thinking about that as like the archetypal Christian hero, I think is valuable.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yep. And just. Yeah. Looking for opportunities not only to give witness, but to also detach from the things of the world in small ways. And then is that the greatest gift given to us to make these sacrifices possible, to cooperate with the grace of God is the Eucharist. And so it is such a gift that in today's age of the Church, at least here in the United States, like, it is possible to receive the Eucharist on a weekly basis for sure, if not more. And that. That is such a gift.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And you get to hang out with Agnes.

[Taylor Kemp]

And you get to hang out with Agnes. That's right. I get to hang out with Agnes.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

I mean, there is this really beautiful.

[Taylor Kemp]

And you can hang out with Agnes at the Augustine Institute. If you want to come here for a morning of recollection or retreat with our statue, check the website.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

That's exactly right. You could come see Agnes. There's this really beautiful piece of art which really demonstrates this sort of martyrdom Eucharist and also us being accompanied by these martyrs to the sacrifice. You could look it up. I've written a little bit on it, but it's very famous. Church in Ravenna, the Procession of the Church in Ravenna. So if you go to the Saint Apollinaris Church, on one side, lined up on the entire side of the wall is female martyrs. Lined up on the other side of the wall is male martyrs. And they're all processing in a line and they almost look identical. And they're the martyrs of the canon. So you know how it's like a list, like, you hear basically, like a name and it's like, you know, but I can't even name them because I'm not a priest. But, you know, Felicity, Agnes, you know, Clement, Cletus, like, it's like this long list. Right. And so it's like that list, but they're people on the wall. And then in those days, men and women would have been separated on sides of the church. Right. So it's like they're literally standing in a communion line towards the altar, bringing their crowns to the altar with you and sort of embodying what you're. What you're called to do.

[Taylor Kemp]

So it's pretty cool. All right, any. Any closing thoughts?

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

No. This was really fun.

[Taylor Kemp]

It was fun. It's such a gift to be able to talk and think about the saints. And for all you out there, we hope that these conversations are eminently helpful, helping us see how God has transformed others and helping increase our faith that he can change all of us and is working to change all of us into his saints. So, Dr. Klein, always a pleasure. It was a joy for me to be back on Catholic Saints.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah. And go tell Little Aggy.

[Taylor Kemp]

I will.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

About a Saint Agnes.

[Taylor Kemp]

I will. I got to bring her to the campus so that she can see. She hasn't seen it yet, but I live super far from campus, so it's got to survive the drive time. All right, well, thank you everyone out there for joining us today on Catholic saints. St. Agnes, pray for us.

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