Dr. Ben Akers (4:01)

Okay, that's a whirlwind of an entrance to the Christian life to go from like a Christian formation with his family, living a Christian life, but not being actually baptized. So he wouldn't have received the sacrament of the Eucharist or you know, confession yet. So he goes from being the governor and being in charge politically to being in charge spiritually. That's amazing. Did this happen often in the early church?

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (4:27)

Yeah. So the election of bishops now we think about it as very, being very formalized, sort of top down thing. But that's actually fairly modern. And in the ancient world, sort of bishop by acclaim was not an uncommon practice. And Augustine likewise was ordained sort of by force, like he's passing through Hippo. And the Bishop of Hippo was not a native Latin speaker. He really wanted someone else to be able to help him and take over as bishop when he died. And everybody knew Augustine was a famous speaker and he sort of just was like ordained, you know, we're gonna ordain you. And apparently was like crying because he knew, you know, what that would mean, that would be hard.

Dr. Ben Akers (5:05)

What an incredible change, you know, 1700 years later. Now, can we even imagine putting a political leader in charge of somebody, you know, within the church today. I mean he must have lived an exemplary Christian life as part of that community.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (5:22)

Yeah, I mean he was known, he was a very popular politician. He was known to be very fair and was known to rule well. And I guess everybody thought that even though he was known to be nicene, that he was sort of very even handed and friendly to, not friendly to, fair to his opponents. And everybody just thought he would do a good job. So they just, you know, he was just chosen. But he really took on that role, you know, with, with his whole life. He gave away his possessions to the poor, he lived a chaste life, he took on an ascetic practice. He really poured himself into reading theology in the Bible. I mean, hitherto he was a politician, so that wasn't really, really occupy the majority of his time. But he could read Greek, which wasn't that common in the West. And so he read a lot of Greek theologians and brought a lot of that Greek theology into the Western consciousness because he took time to study. And there's a very famous story from the Confessions that Augustine tells. You know, Augustine coming to hear him, this wonderful preacher, he wants to get his ear and talk to him. And so he goes to his office, you know, after mass kind of thing and, and he finds Ambrose reading a book silently. And Augustine comments on how amazing this is because in the ancient world reading would usually not be silent. Usually you would read out loud. And so the fact that he was able to read silently to himself for hours at a time really impressed and amazed Augustine. And he records this for us.

Dr. Ben Akers (6:47)

That's neat. We have an echo in the New Testament Under Acts chapter 8 when Philip is transported in the Holy Spirit and he's walking by the carriage and he hears the Ethiopian eunuch reading aloud because that was the to read was to read aloud. And Ambrose is an innovator in that.

Dr. Ben Akers (7:07)

In reading silently. But just the detail on that story too that I wanted to point out is that Augustine must have known that Ambrose had an open door, that he'd be able to go and have access to Ambrose and to me. We're all so busy in our lives. We all have our lives scheduled and we have calendars at work, we have shared calendars at home. But that Ambrose made himself available to his flock, the people that could always have access to him.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (7:35)

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, obviously his fame was widespread because Augustine knew to come and sit in the back of mass and listen to Ambrose. At the time that Augustine started attending Mass, he was not baptized. He was sort of still, maybe, maybe like the seeker phase, he's just kind of interested in returning to the faith of his mother, Monica. And he's heard Ambrose is a very impressive speaker. He had heard that some of the Manicheans, the Christian group he had belonged to, sort of quasi Christian group that Augustine belonged to previously. He'd heard about their famous speakers and had been very disappointed when he met one of them in person. And so this is contrasted in the Confessions with when he meets Ambrose and how impressed he is with Ambrose and impressed with, you know, his speaking ability. But ultimately that what he spoke was the truth. When he. When he heard the sort of Manichean, the famous Manichean speaker, he thought he spoke very well, but that he wasn't able to answer his questions and that he didn't speak the truth. And this is the opposite of Ambrose, who both spoke well and spoke the truth.

Dr. Ben Akers (8:43)

When we read this book in a class that I teach here at the Augusta Institute called Discipleship in the Christian Life, we read the Confessions. And that is something that the students notice as well, that Ambrose takes Augustine's questions seriously. Well, when Augustine went to the Manichaean, he was kind of blown off. Oh, don't think about it too hard. It's okay. And there wasn't a substance there because there wasn't the truth there. But with Ambrose, he saw a man who was actually genuinely interested in him and generally interested in giving him the truths of the faith.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (9:17)

And like, I think what Ambrose really models is discipline. You know, he has this Episcopal authority basically thrown on him in a moment's notice. And rather than, you know, complaining or, you know, kind of phoning it in, or he really just takes it on and becomes a very disciplined student of the faith, a disciplined preacher. He brings all this skill that he had from a different mode of life to ministry. And I think this probably resonates with many people who do ministry on the side or who change careers from doing something into ministry, that if you bring that same discipline, if you bring the skills that you acquired in other career settings, that that is a huge asset to the church and that lay people have this.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (10:06)

Specific charism of acquiring skills in the world that we bring to the church. That Ambrose, who was lay, not even baptized, brought this great gift to the church when it was recognized by the church.

Dr. Ben Akers (10:17)

That's beautifully put, because we do need people to. The lady's role, distinctive role in the church, in the world, is to transform the world, the secular order, to bring more order and God's presence and the. In breaking of grace in people's lives. But we also have people that are called to. They were doctors, they were teachers, you know, great business leaders. And they bring those skills, either full time or part time as advisors into the church. So we can actually have best practices because there's nothing wrong with being professionally competent. That's actually a good thing to do as long as, as well as pastorally competent. So it is wonderful when you see someone skilled in something of the world and be able to use those gifts for the church.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (11:02)

Yeah. There's probably the most famous story that you may know about Ambrose has to do with precisely this. You know, as the governor, he's used to going head to head with the emperor. He knows, you know, politics. He knows how to stand up against a strong, a strong personality. And so this, this famous story when the emperor, who I think is Theodosius, I, you know, can google it, after the emperor, he's involved in this massacre of 7,000 people. And Ambrose excommunicates him and he actually refuses to let him back into communion and back into the church until he's done public penance for a number of months. And he sort of exhorts him to follow the example of David in being sort of publicly repentant of this terrible crime. And that's, this is always taken as a sort of, sort of example of how powerful the church had become and how important the church was in the Roman Empire. But I think it particularly points to Ambrose's character because there are other instances where bishop and emperor go head to head and the bishop doesn't come out as well as Ambrose does in that instance. But I think one of the reasons he's so successful is because of his past experience and also because of the credibility of his personal character. You know, he's very holy and he's very popular and everybody knows how committed he is to the church.

Dr. Ben Akers (12:23)

Yes, that is such a vivid image and there's some great art around that of having this Ambrose in his full bishop garments, his vestments, his miter, his staff, and forbidding the emperor to enter the church and commanding him to repent and believe in the Gospel, to ask forgiveness for his sins. And it is an incredible scene of courage. And there's something about when we see a good shepherd, we see our bishops, we see our pastors and our priests be brave and courageous and preach the gospel in season and out of season. As St. Paul says, that even in difficult times, that the good news is for everyone and even the hard parts of the gospel, which means that I need to recognize that I'm a sinner and I need repentance.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (13:07)

And he continues to do this throughout his life. There's a number of times later when the emperor is more favorable to that Arian side, that Arian camp, and they ask Ambrose to hand over some of the churches to the Arian bishops or to the Arian side, and he refuses to do it. And he says, if you want to take me, you know, I'll go quietly. You want to arrest me, you want to punish me, that's fine, but I will never hand over the property of the Church. And so again, it's that combination of this witness, of what he's willing to sacrifice personally allows him to sort of defend the Church and really benefit the.

Dr. Ben Akers (13:43)

Church in the time remaining. What I'd like to reflect on is the importance of Ambrose in Augustine's life. Here at the Augustine Institute, we have a great devotion to St. Augustine, our patron, but that also leads us to have a great devotion to St. Ambrose. And he plays such a key and prominent role in the life of Augustine. When I read the Confessions, I have the Confessions in front of me. I'm just in book five. And when he talks about coming to Milan and he meets the Bishop Ambrose for the first time, this servant of God, not only a great elegant man, as you mentioned, but also eloquent speaker, but also a great man, had character. I just want to read this line and we can reflect on it. That man of God received me as a father and as a bishop, welcomed my coming. I came to love him not at first as a teacher of the truth, which I had utterly despaired of finding in your church, but for his kindness towards me. And that's just so striking to me is that when we talk about the new evangelization, we talk about how do we share the faith with our friends and our families. We always want to have the right answers ready at our fingertips, at our tongue, ready to share that. And those are good things. And that's why you're watching form. That's why you watch other programs related to the faith, so that you can be formed. But what Augustine is most moved by, first and foremost, is Ambrose's charity, his Christian charity, his character as a human person.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (15:03)

And in fact, it's his charity that then opens the door for the truth to enter Augustine's heart. Augustine, the reason he initially goes to Ambrose is because of this eloquence. And he stays because of his charity. And he's converted because he hears the truth. And so really having the Full package. You know, having a holy life and being intellectually and spiritually prepared is what leads to the conversion of Augustine is one of the key pieces of the puzzle. And, you know, so really Augustine is part of Ambrose's gift to the Church, which is a very, very big gift. I consider him a very big gift. Augustine is my patron and so it's just really wonderful. And Ambrose is actually the one who baptizes Augustine and the kind of cool historical continuity. We have the records of what Ambrose would have preached to the catechumens. And so we actually kind of know exactly what Augustine would have heard. We have his preaching on the sacraments and his preaching on the Creed, how he handed the faith onto the catechumens. Augustine being one of those catechumens.

Dr. Ben Akers (16:06)

That's wonderful. And that's actually. Ambrose is very readable, just like Augustine in so many ways. And so I encourage you, an action point that you can take away from this is to go and find some of the reflections of Ambrose, especially his teaching on the Psalms. It's really beautiful. I think you'd be surprised if you went through your hymn book at church, how many hymns that he composed were turned into music that we still sing, especially in this Advent season as well. One of the things that. And if you're, if you're looking where to go for that. NewAdvent.org is a wonderful website that has many of the fathers of the Church, the license free, free to download, to read online, anything, Go ahead.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (16:44)

Oh, no, I was just going to say on the hymns, that's something that Ambrose is really known and famous for composing hymns. And there's a legend that one of his most famous hymns was kind of spontaneously composed as Augustine was being baptized. That probably didn't quite happen, but Augustine does refer to how moved he was by the chanting of the Psalms at the church in Milan and how that was, that really affected him as a new Christian. And also he cites many of Ambrose's hymns later on in his life in his homilies and these kinds of things. And so another, in addition to being very learned and very holy, he also was very sensitive to the pastoral needs of his flock and had liturgical reforms to allow them to appreciate their worship even more.

Dr. Ben Akers (17:29)

And I've been blessed in my own life to go to Milan and there's a beautiful cathedral there now. But underneath the cathedral is the original cathedral that Ambrose would have been the pastor of. And they have the baptismal font that Augustine would have been baptized in the space he would have been baptized by Ambrose. And as Dr. Klein mentioned the story which I like, that he spontaneously prayed the Te Deum, which is a hymn that the Church prays on major feast days in celebration of salvation history, but also God acting in people's lives. And we see God acting in such a particular way in the life of Ambrose and Augustine. Think of the people that the Lord has put into your life. You might be the Augustine, you might be the Ambrose, but the Lord puts us in people's lives to bring them closer to Himself. And so ask the Lord, how can I be a conduit of grace? What can I do to bring people to know you, to love you and serve you more faithfully in this world in order to be happy with you in the next? Again, thank you for your support of the Augusta Institute, especially through the Mission Circle. Thank you and God Bless.

Narrator (18:35)

You can watch these interviews in video format by visiting formed.org formed is an online Catholic streaming service created by the Augustine Institute and Ignatius Press with award winning studies and parish programs, inspiring audio content, movies, ebooks and family friendly kids programming to support the mission of the Augustine institute. Please visit missioncircle.org.