St. Anselm of Canterbury

Summary

Podcast Summary: Catholic Saints – Episode on St. Anselm of Canterbury

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Introduction

In the April 21, 2025 episode of Catholic Saints, hosted by Taylor Kemp from the Augustine Institute, listeners are introduced to the life and legacy of St. Anselm of Canterbury. Joined by Dr. Elizabeth Klein, a professor from the Graduate School of Theology, the episode delves deep into Anselm's contributions to theology, his role in the Investiture Controversy, and his enduring influence on the Catholic Church.

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Early Life and Path to Monasticism

Taylor Kemp opens the discussion by welcoming Dr. Klein, emphasizing her expertise in Catholic saints. Dr. Klein provides an overview of St. Anselm's early life, highlighting his birth in northern Italy in 1033 and his eventual entry into monastic life at the age of 27, after a period of wandering across France and Italy.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein [04:32]: "Anselm made the Abbey of Bec a center of learning and wrote many of his treatises during his time there."

Anselm's rapid rise within the monastery is noted, becoming prior just three years after joining and subsequently the abbot, setting the stage for his influential role in the Church.

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The Investiture Controversy

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the Investiture Controversy, a power struggle between secular authorities and the papacy over the appointment of church officials.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein [00:48]: "Anselm of Canterbury is a monk, abbot, bishop, theologian, doctor of the church... his masterpiece, Cur Deus Homo, kind of one of the earliest theological reflections on the nature of the incarnation and Christ's atonement, still very appealing today."

Taylor Kemp succinctly explains the Investiture Controversy for listeners unfamiliar with the term, describing it as the conflict over whether kings had the authority to appoint bishops.

Taylor Kemp [02:19]: "Do we need to know much about it? Let's take a quick look."

Dr. Klein elaborates on how Anselm navigated this controversy, initially avoiding involvement with English kings who sought to control ecclesiastical appointments. Anselm's eventual acceptance of the Archbishopric of Canterbury brings him into direct conflict with King William II, who attempts to assert his authority over the Church by withholding necessary ecclesiastical symbols.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein [06:02]: "Anselm being forced to become Bishop, he refuses. His monks are refusing to relinquish him as Abbot."

The negotiation between Anselm and the king highlights the delicate balance between spiritual authority and secular power.

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Exile and Political Struggles

Anselm's commitment to the Church's autonomy leads to his exile when King William II reneges on his agreement to support Urban II over the anti-Pope Clement III.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein [06:57]: "The King refuses these terms, so he's like, ah, I didn't really want you to be bishop that badly."

During his exile, Anselm engages in theological debates with Greek bishops, striving to maintain communion between Eastern and Western Christianity. His return to England under Henry I is marked by further conflicts over the rightful investiture of church leaders, ultimately leading to significant clergy reforms influenced by the Gregorian Reforms.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein [09:58]: "He enacts clergy reforms that include banning clerics from marriage, having mistresses, and drunkenness."

These reforms cement Anselm's legacy as a pivotal figure in establishing the Church's moral and spiritual integrity.

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Theological Contributions

The episode transitions to Anselm's enduring theological work, particularly his seminal work, Cur Deus Homo ("Why God Became Man"), and the ontological argument for God's existence.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein [13:05]: "Cur Deus Homo is a deep reflection on the causes of the Incarnation and why this makes sense as a plan of God."

Anselm's ontological argument, though complex, is explained in an accessible manner. He posits that defining God as "that than which nothing greater can exist" necessitates God's existence, as existence is a predicate that adds to the greatness of a being.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein [14:22]: "His essential argument for the existence of God is if you can imagine God, he has to exist... if you can define God as that which, then nothing greater can exist. He must exist, because that would be the greatest thing."

Taylor Kemp reflects on the challenging nature of this argument, acknowledging its abstractness while recognizing its intuitive appeal.

Taylor Kemp [15:38]: "It's a little weird. It's jarring the first time you hear it because you're like, I have never even tried to think of something if I can imagine something, therefore it is is a very odd thing to think about."

Dr. Klein concurs, noting that while the ontological argument isn't universally accepted as conclusive, its intuitive strength resonates deeply.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein [16:50]: "There's an extremely strong intuitive attractiveness of this argument... it kind of echoes the image of God in our souls."

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Relevance and Lessons from Anselm's Life

As the discussion draws to a close, Dr. Klein emphasizes the enduring relevance of Anselm's life and work. She draws parallels between Anselm and later saints like Thomas Becket and Thomas More, who similarly balanced spiritual authority against secular power.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein [18:31]: "When you look into the last of these saints, you're like, sorry, what was happening... and people remained faithful."

She highlights the comforting and inspiring aspects of Anselm's steadfast faith and dedication to the Church, despite the tumultuous political landscape.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein [19:12]: "You can have it all. He is wonderful."

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Conclusion

Taylor Kemp wraps up the episode by expressing gratitude to Dr. Klein and the listeners, reinforcing the significance of understanding saints like St. Anselm of Canterbury in appreciating the Church's history and resilience.

Taylor Kemp [19:26]: "Thank you all, dear listeners, for joining us for another episode of Catholic Saints. We will see you next time."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Catholic Saints offers a comprehensive exploration of St. Anselm of Canterbury's life, his theological contributions, and his pivotal role in the Investiture Controversy. Through engaging dialogue and expert insights, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for Anselm's enduring legacy within the Catholic tradition.

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

You're listening to a podcast on Catholic Saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustine Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live, and share their faith.

[Taylor Kemp]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Catholic Saints. My name is Taylor Kemp. I am your host and the vice president of content here at the Augusta Institute. And with me is Dr. Elizabeth Klein, who is a professor for our Graduate school of theology. Dr. Klein, it's great to have you back.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Thanks for having me.

[Taylor Kemp]

It's my joy. You're one of my favorite people to talk to, especially when we're talking about Catholic saints. Dr. Klein, today we are talking about St. Anselm of Canterbury, whose feast day is April 21st. Who is St. Anselm of Canterbury?

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

St. Anselm of Canterbury is a monk, abbot, bishop, theologian, doctor of the church. Yeah, he's got a lot of his name and alive in Christ. He lived from 1033 to 1109. So an early medieval saint. He's probably one of the first theologians I ever read in my course of theological study. Yeah, we can talk about a little more later. But his masterpiece, Cur Deus Homo, why God Became man, kind of one of the earliest theological reflections on the nature of the incarnation and Christ's atonement, still very appealing. I think today. People still use it today. And of course, he's famous for his ontological argument for the existence of God. That's what I've heard, which I talked to an Anselm of Canterbury scholar before I did this episode, and he said, don't talk about the ontological argument. Talk about this and that and the other thing. So I'll try to honor Father Maloney and his love of love of Saint Anselm. But actually what this scholar told me about Anselm was that really his life is actually really interesting in addition to his theology. So to talk a little bit about his life, which I, of course, happy to do. Anselmo Canterbury was actually largely admired by the more famous later English saints Thomas Becket and Thomas More, because he kind of sets the stage for resisting English kings, papacy over kings during the investiture controversy, which you may or may not be familiar with. Nope, not familiar with the investiture controversy.

[Taylor Kemp]

And if I'm not, I'm assuming most listeners are not either. Do we need to know much about it?

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

I mean, I could explain it pretty quickly.

[Taylor Kemp]

Let's take a quick.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah, I know the word investiture sounds pretty fancy, but basically it just meant that secular authorities invested bishops with their power, like gave them their crozier or whatever. And Then it comes to a point where it's like, no, it's not actually the king that's giving the bishop the authority. It's the pope and, you know, the power of his orders. And so this controversy unfolds during Anselm's own life. So he's the. Under the first king, he's bishop, he is invested, and then he refuses to be by the second king because of the controversy. If you ever homeschool your kids, you'll learn about the invest controversy. Listening to the. You know, it's great. Okay, so a little background on Anom, sort of early, early life. So Anom was born in northern, or, I don't know, northern Italy, I think northern Italy, but Italy anyway. He had. He had a pious mother, but a somewhat prodigal father. You know, kind of just worldly. He wanted to enter the monastery when he was young, at age 15, but his father would not consent, and so he couldn't enter. But when his mother died, his father had a religious conversion, sort of repented of his earlier wanton ways and actually joined a monastery himself, which was, I think we've talked about on the show before. Not super uncommon for widows and widowers to enter monasteries. But by this time, sort of Anselm's dreams of monastic life were kind of long behind him. He was 23. This kind of restless young man takes one of his servants and sort of just wandering around France and Italy, wanders across the Alps, and finally, he's attracted to the Abbey of Beck by the reputation of an abbot named Lanfranc. Might be a name familiar to you, perhaps not. He was the abbey, so he was the abbot of Beck, and he became the first archbishop of Canterbury before an. But Anselm didn't actually officially enter the monastery back until age 27. So, you know, fairly old. But only three years later, he himself was elected the prior.

[Taylor Kemp]

Wow.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And then finally the abbot. So Anselm made this abbey very famous, kind of as a center, a center of learning, and wrote many of his treatises during his time at Beck.

[Taylor Kemp]

Okay.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

But then Long Frank, when Long Frank dies, Anom is assumed that, like everyone has assumed Anselm is going to be the successor as archbishop of Canterbury. You might be like, what. What is the deal with these French dudes being archbishop of Canterbury? Canterbury's in England does seem. Yeah, this is right after the Norman invasion. So after the French have taken over England, and so the kings of France want Norman, you know, guys to be bishop. So everyone's assuming Anselm is going to be the successor of Lanfranc, just like he was the successor of Lanfranc at the abbey. But the king at that time, William ii, also called William the Red, thought he would be better off just not appointing any bishop and collecting all the taxes of church lands and stuff for himself.

[Taylor Kemp]

So he just kept it vacant.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And he just kept it vacant.

[Taylor Kemp]

Whatever benefits were coming to that C he was just taking.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Correct. Yeah. So he was just like, eh, I don't need a bishop, I'll just, I'll just take all the taxes and stuff from.

[Taylor Kemp]

We don't like William ii, AKA the Red.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So Anselm is, you know, not really wanting to get involved with this situation. He avoids traveling to England during this entire period, but he's finally kind of lured to England on business. By this time, William II has pledged no one will become Bishop of Canterbury while he lives. But shortly after he's kind of made this vow, he falls ill and he believes that it's his, this sin that has caused his illness, as he should think. Yeah. So Anom being in town, he calls Anselm to hear his confession and give him last rites and declares that he is going to be the next Bishop of Canterbury.

[Taylor Kemp]

Impressive repentance from William ii.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah, well, it doesn't last. So he gets better.

[Taylor Kemp]

Spoke too soon.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

But they try to force Anselm to become Bishop, he refuses. His monks are refusing to relinquish him as Abbott. So the King still insists Anselm is going to be Bishop. Anselm doesn't really want to. Neither do his monks. So Anselm begins a negotiation with the King to take up the position of Archbishop of Canterbury. So he says that he won't be bishop unless the King returns all the lands and their profit to the Church if he actually accepts Anselm's spiritual council and if he backs Urban II over the anti Pope, Clement iii. So at this time there are two competing men who are claiming to be Pope. So the King has been happy to be non committ, you know, waiting to see who will kind of come out on top, currying favor. And he says he has to back Urban ii.

[Taylor Kemp]

This is important for our listeners out there. It's very easy to think that the Church in our day is in a difficult spot. And we're not saying there's not some of that in certain places, but when you're in the history of the Church, there are crazier times than ours. Like when there's anti popes, two or.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Three popes, three people all competing to claim to be Pope. I mean, this is crazy times. Anyway, the king refuses these terms, so he's like, ah, I didn't really want you to be bishop that badly. But under popular pressure for Anselm to bishop, he finally capitulates to these terms. However, this was not the end at all of the political intrigue for Anselm with this king. Anselm says, okay, fine, I'm Archbishop of Canterbury now. I have to travel to Rome to get the pallium. So the pallium, for those of you who are not familiar with this, is kind of this, like, triangle scarfy thing that the Pope and other archbishops wear. And up until recent times, in order for you to licitly exercise your authority as archbishop, you had to travel to Rome to get the pal. So he says, I'm gonna go get the pallium from Rome. And William's like, nah, I don't want you to go. Blah, blah, blah. When he leaves, William exiles him, takes his lands, takes his lands again. So when. Yeah, so when Anselm goes to acquire the pallium and seek the Pope's council, William just goes back to what he was doing before, which is collecting all the taxes from the Church's lands.

[Taylor Kemp]

His repentance was not long lived.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah, he's like, well, I got better, and this guy's kind of a pain in my butt, so I'm not really that interested. But interestingly, while in, Anselm is not idle, he is asked to participate in debates and conversations with Greek bishops. So Eastern bishops who are considering sort of breaking communion with Rome. These are likely not in the areas like Eastern Orthodoxy, but they're probably Greek bishops in Italy. So to this day, there is the Italo Albanian rite in Italy, which are Eastern Christians with Greek heritage, but in Italy. And so those were kept in communion partially by Anselm's efforts while he's in exile, kind of debating them over the classic east, west things, Philiac way, unleavened bread and these kinds of things. So finally, William II dies, Anselm goes back to England. So I don't know how much time he's actually spent in England at this point as archbishop, but he returns under Henry I, but he refuses the traditional right of being invested in his authority by Henry I, because by this time. So he was invested by William ii, but he's gone to the Pope, found out all about the investiture controversy, that this is against canon law now to be invested by the King. So he refuses to be invested by Henry I, which Henry isn't happy about. More fighting Another exile follows under there, but finally, under Henry, he is able to sort of enact some of the clergy reforms that he wanted to do, the Gregorian reforms, which include, get this, banning clerics from marriage, banning clerics from having a mistress, and banning clerics from drunkenness.

[Taylor Kemp]

Like I said, church history has been through many cycles.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

So you think like one of the great reforms. The reforms are no mistresses, no getting drunk, a lot of fighting to get to celibacy.

[Taylor Kemp]

It's good perspective. It really is.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

It really and truly is. So he has more conflicts with Henry, but finally gets the Pope to kind of threaten excommunication on Henry I and is able to reconcile with him. Okay, so you can see why this is sort of inspiring for later Christian saints Thomas Becket and Thomas More, who are, you know, really dealing with very similar things where, you know, kings are always trying to jostle for more authority against the papacy. The papacy is always trying to jostle for more authority against secular kings. This is always sort of a back and forth and trying to sort of get the compass right on, like, spiritual authority, who has spiritual authority, what that means for the actual life of the faithful. And sort of to enact that without compromise is a very tricky thing to do because even after the investiture controversy, the kind of compromise was like, well, the bishop still has to swear fealty to the secular king. He still says, like, he's gonna be a loyal subject of the king, but he doesn't get his authority from the K. It's like kind of a fine distinction to make, but it's one that they were, yeah, working, working out and trying to make a situation where the Church can actually, of course, function and have the material goods it needs to function without being sort of compromised in its authority and especially as a spiritual authority by secular matters. But this is not always done successfully, believe it or not.

[Taylor Kemp]

That is. That is sensitive and not easy. And I'm not. I'm happy to never have to think through such a thing.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Well, you know, each age has its own problems. Like, it's obviously kind of problematic to have kings and nobles involved in the election of bishops and their appointment. But, you know, once we now that we have the secular state, and that obviously is not happening anymore. It's actually fairly recent, really, early 20th century, that the Pope is actually the one who's appointing all bishops. This is not an ancient practice at all. And that carries with its own problems as well. Obviously, as we've seen, you know, sort of having a more closed clerical system that's not being pressured by outside sources can create all kinds of different. Different clerical problems. So it's. It's always. There's always ever changing political circumstances in the church and new things to negotiate in terms of keeping its leadership healthy and all the rest of it. Not always.

[Taylor Kemp]

So I want to make sure we leave some time to talk about Anselm in terms of his teaching and some of the books he wrote, because he is very much today utilized in seminaries and schools for his teaching. So what do we need to know or what can we learn about either his masterpiece that you mentioned or his other theological works?

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah, so, I mean, Anselm is very much in the line of his time, so, you know, highly philosophically educated, but also marrying that to the faith and thinking through those things. So his famous work I mentioned, Cur Deus Homo, why God Became man, is. It's really a very. It's a deep reflection on the causes of the Incarnation and why this sort of makes sense as a plan of God. And honestly, if you've heard a sort of, like, short version of the doctrine of the Atonement, it's probably Anom's, which is that, right, human beings owed a debt of honor to God which they could by no means repay, but that man had to be the one to repay it, so that God, the infinite God, who could repay the honor due to God, became man and paid the debt as a man. So kind of like only man owed, only God could pay. Solution is God, man. So that's Anselm. And I think that, yeah, people know that that's a kind of, like, easy way to remember why God became man and how that works. But I would encourage you to read it. It's really very readable and it's in the form of a dialogue. So he has a kind of interlocutor whose name is Bozo, which I find very entertaining. So Bozo's always like, please tell me more. Anom.

[Taylor Kemp]

Please, please explain this.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Explain this point further.

[Taylor Kemp]

I love those older texts that are like, dialogue based, but, you know, one person's writing, you're like, this is so fun. Like, oh, do tell me more.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

You're like, yeah, I need like a foil that by class. Maybe I can get like a Bozo in class.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yeah.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Who's like, please, Professor. What?

[Taylor Kemp]

That was me. I got to prompt further questions.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

What you have just said is so. It's so manifestly clear. Please speak on.

[Taylor Kemp]

Please say it with such clarity in a different way, please.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Yeah, so that's one thing. The other, the ontological argument that he's famous for, it's an argument for the existence of God. So his essential argument for the existence of God is if you can imagine God, he has to exist. And why is that the case? Well, he says that even the fool who says in his heart there is no God knows what he means by God. What he means by God is that than which nothing greater can exist. So there's something that's supersedingly wonderful, that exists above all things. But then he says to actually exist is greater than just to be thought about. And therefore, if you can define God as that which, then nothing greater can exist. He must exist, because that would be the greatest thing.

[Taylor Kemp]

So I will say I. Haha.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Gotcha. God exists.

[Taylor Kemp]

You know, I, I like theology. I was a student here, I work at a Catholic apostolate, and I've heard the ontological argument. And it is, it's a little weird. Like it's jarring the first time you hear it because you're like, I have never even tried to think of something if I can imagine something, therefore it is is a very odd thing to think about. So if you're out there and maybe you've heard the ontological argument, you're like, totally with it. I know what he's talking about. Great. If you're out there and you haven't, there is lots of other resources or videos or things that can explain it a little bit more because it is a very, I would say it's a complex concept that is very foreign to most of us today who are not thinking about such things. Or at least that's how I feel.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

About it, as logical. Yeah. It's not just like the fact you can imagine it, but the fact that you could define something as the highest possible existence. But I mean, the way that I have. So this is not, you know, has not actually been accepted as a sort of foolproof theological argument for the existence of God. You know, it doesn't follow just because you can imagine it that therefore it is. But at the same time, I actually think that there is an extremely strong intuitive, I don't know, attractiveness of this argument.

[Taylor Kemp]

I agree.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

It reminds me of, you know, C.S. lewis says something along the lines of it's not weird to be thirsty if there's no water in the room, but it's weird to be thirsty if there's no such thing as water. And so, and he's using that analogy to say, like, isn't it like really weird that everyone feels like they're not happy and that nothing in this world would ever make them happy. Like, wouldn't it make a lot more sense if actually there was such a thing beyond this world as would make you happy, as in the case of the thirst analogy? And that's kind of. I think, the direction I would take with Anselm's argument, rather than trying to kind of buttress it up with sort of philosophical jargon, is just to say even the person who denies the existence of God can. Would accept the definition of God presented.

[Taylor Kemp]

Right.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

And if that's the case, like, why.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yeah, it's very odd.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Okay, why do we. Why do we have that kind of desire? Why would someone say, oh, yes, this category of transcendent being beyond all bounds, which controls everything and has sovereignty. Like, why would that category exist or appeal to you as a human being? So it kind of. Kind of echoes the image of God in our souls?

[Taylor Kemp]

No, I totally agree. Like, everything that we could possibly desire not. Could possibly. Everything that we desire has a satisfaction. And so how, in the deepest sense or the fullest sense, could that not be true? I agree. It is intuitively attractive in some respects. So, yes, ontological argument for God. Dr. Klein, we are close here to time. Is there anything we haven't covered that you want to cover? Anything you want to leave us or leave the listeners with?

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

No, I think we've already kind of drawn out the lessons that are, I think, pretty obvious, which is you think the church is a mess now, but you really have no idea like that.

[Taylor Kemp]

I mean, it's a great point of comfort.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

It is a great point of comfort. I think it's something that's probably come out in tons of our episodes that, you know, when you look into the last of these saints, you're like, sorry, what was happening and what's going on and.

[Taylor Kemp]

And so, yeah, and people remained faithful.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Be comfortable.

[Taylor Kemp]

The church carries on through the body.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Of Christ, and there's lots of saints who lived holy lives and suffered and all the rest of it, but they made it, and they made a. They made, you know, strides in the church towards other people's holiness. So that's. That's comforting. I also think it's, for me personally, very inspiring to have someone who's so sort of upright pastorally and politically and also theologically. So you can have it all.

[Taylor Kemp]

You can have it all.

[Dr. Elizabeth Klein]

Canterbury.

[Taylor Kemp]

He is wonderful. So thank you, Dr. Klein, for walking us through St. Anselm of Canterbury, and thank you all, dear listeners, for joining us for another episode of Catholic Saints. We will see you next time thank.

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