C (2:28)

Yeah.

B (2:29)

Pope II and Pope 3. Yeah, but what kind? I mean, they might. I mean, to be the kind of men that are chosen by the priests, that are the deacons that are in Rome at the time to say, this person will succeed Peter.

C (2:42)

Yeah.

B (2:42)

Like the Peter who knew Jesus and received the keys of the kingdom from Jesus, that they saw it as an office that needed to be. A successor, needed to be replaced.

C (2:52)

Right. Yeah, yeah. It's difficult shoes to fill. It's like following a great football coach or something, like, who's the next football coach of the New England Patriots going to be like after Bill Belichick? But, yeah, yeah, they still. They must have had great dignity and spiritual depth and this ability to lead the Christian people. And it seems like Clement really had that. So what do we know about Clement?

B (3:20)

Yeah, why do we know more about him than Linus and Cletus? Right.

C (3:24)

Partially, I think, because he responded to a controversy. So he was Pope like 91 to 102. So. So even just saying those dates, you get a sense of how close that is to Christ, but especially to Paul and John and all of the apostles. But he's remembered particularly because we have this letter from him and there are other works attributed to him. You know, you did something really right.

B (3:50)

If people start claiming.

C (3:52)

Yeah. People put their works in their name, wrote this. Yeah, that's right. I can only hope. Yeah. But there is one authentic work, which is this letter to the Corinthian Church. And it echoes in a lot of ways Paul's letters to them because.

B (4:09)

Saying that the church in Corinth didn't listen to Paul the first time or the second time.

C (4:15)

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. They were habitual abusers. So, yeah, they tried with Paul and then they brought in the popes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was this controversy. So there were presbyters who were upended by these young upstarts of some kind. And this resulted in a schism between these groups. And so Pope Clement gives what Pope Benedict says is a first act of Roman primacy. So he actually doesn't name himself at the beginning of the letter, but he identifies himself sort of as the Roman Church. The Roman Church writes to you or the. The Church in Rome writes to you. And so there's. Yeah, there's this kind of weightiness even to the beginning of the letter that's.

B (5:05)

Striking that it is historically striking that this person in Rome, in the Western part of this empire, sees it as his duty to respond to a controversy that's in the East.

C (5:20)

Yeah.

B (5:20)

That he has that kind of self understanding of his position and his role as Holy Father.

C (5:26)

Yeah, that's right.

B (5:26)

To solve a problem in another part of the Church when Corinth is Actually, closer to Ephesus, which is where John. There's a chance that John the apostle is still alive and living in Ephesus. Who's another apostle? Actually, an apostle of Jesus Christ and Clement's third down from an apostle.

C (5:45)

Right, yeah. That gives you a sense of how the hierarchy of the Church works. And there are these different gifts and roles, and the role of apostle is one of the most important. But in the question of, like, doctrine and church order and morals. Yeah, they turn to Rome, and it seems like probably some people in Corinth went to him for help, or at least that's likely that he would have heard about it somehow.

B (6:15)

Now, what does he do? How does he write the letter? Is it all stern? Is it all fire and brimstone, or what's the gist of the letter?

C (6:21)

So I think he encourages people to repentance. And he gives these examples of. He gives these examples from the Old Testament of repentance and the failure to repent, and he grounds for that for.

B (6:35)

A second because that's actually fascinating, too, because we're in the early church, and one of the early church heresies is going to be, how does the Old Testament connect to the New Testament?

C (6:43)

Yeah, that's right.

B (6:44)

And so he's off the bat saying, no, we could turn to the Old Testament for actually guidance in this situation.

C (6:49)

Definitely. Yeah. He appeals to the Old Testament constantly in this work. And at this point, the New Testament is so fresh, and there's still going to be debates about which works are included in it. And actually this work itself is quoted by some church fathers as scripture. So, like, yeah, it comes to have this incredible weight. But, yeah, it helps reinforce this idea. At this time, he's. Yeah, he's just in the thick of it. And everyone's. All orthodox Christians are turning to the Old Testament for. For guidance and these kind of questions. That's right. Yeah.

B (7:26)

So he's. So he has his letter. He's going through Old Testament examples and New Testament examples of, you know, if you mess with the rulers, it doesn't end well for you.

C (7:34)

Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. And he's a. He's a good Roman because he. He says, consider the Roman army. Like, what works? You know, like, can you think of a system that works. The Roman army is pretty good and everyone stays in their place. But he doesn't stop there. It's not just like, we're going to be the military. Yeah, it's a call to love and humility. So, yeah, you have to obey. But there has to be this mutual love between. And he borrows a lot of images from Paul, the head and the body.

B (8:06)

And.

C (8:09)

Everyone has to play their part, and when they do, there will be mutual love and peace and concord.

B (8:15)

Seems like he knows his audience. He's also diplomatic. He knows his audience well. Hey, you guys have received two letters from St. Paul.

C (8:21)

Yeah.

B (8:21)

Let me remind you of those letters.

C (8:23)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to read those allusions and quotations. Yeah, I kind of dig. I mean, maybe it's not playful, but. Yeah, I kind of like. Yeah, he cuts to the quick, certainly. Yeah.

B (8:38)

Is there anything striking in the letter that you think would be. The reader might enjoy, the listener might enjoy.

C (8:42)

Yeah, yeah. There's one kind of fun thing in the middle of the letter. There's this. He gives these images for the resurrection. And one is night and day. So night gives way to day and light, obviously. And the. The other is from John, the seed that goes into the ground and decays, but then grows up as a plant. The third one, which is less familiar, is of the Phoenix. So he tells the story. There's this Phoenix in Arabia, and every 500 years, it makes this coffin, like, nest.

B (9:18)

This bird.

C (9:19)

Yeah, yeah, this bird. Yeah. And it makes this coffin, like, nest with myrrh and this kind of incense. And not incense, but frankincense. And then it dies, and a worm is born, and the worm eats the flesh, and then it grows up into a bird and then carries the bones to the temple of the Heliopolis in Egypt. And everybody knows about this, and they keep records since every 500 years. And this is image for the incarnation. And on the one hand, it's kind of taking this Roman myth or idea and baptizing it. So. So it would have been something that everyone was familiar with, and it would have given them just, like, one more little lens to think about the resurrection of Christ. But I was actually thinking the really important thing, or one really important contribution that Clement makes is to this idea of apostolic succession. And so he talks about how would you be.

B (10:17)

Like, how the apostles were instituted by Christ.

C (10:20)

Exactly.

B (10:21)

And then when they die, the office doesn't just go away. It's actually an office that needs to be filled.

C (10:26)

Filled by successors. Yeah. And priests have to be anointed and made priests with. With the Holy Spirit. Right. And. And of course, he's part of this tradition. And. Yeah, that's. That's one way to think of the image of the Phoenix, too. That. And there's the image of martyrdom. The The Phoenix is carrying the bones like we're. We're carrying the memory and especially the memory of martyrs in imitation of Christ forward into the future from the past. And Clement is an excellent example of this. And I know you were.

B (11:01)

I like that. You know, as you say, like I was talking about the Phoenix, I was struck by, again, having lived in Rome, that some of the churches have these most. These beautiful aps. Mosaics in the apse, little stones that they put, and they have the saints and images of Christ and Mary. But there's a couple places in Rome where there's actually a palm tree, and on top of the palm tree is a phoenix bird. And in one of them, distinctly, and I'm trying to think exactly which church it is, the phoenix has a halo on it. It was just always as you could visit a church, like, why does that bird have a halo on it? Because it's a Christ image.

C (11:37)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. There's these. There's a lot of beautiful images. Like, the pelican is another one where.

B (11:45)

The idea is that the pelican will strike her own breast.

C (11:48)

Yeah.

B (11:49)

And feed her children with the blood.

C (11:50)

With the blood. Yeah. So it's the image of the Eucharist. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But, yeah, the Phoenix is kind of a fun one because it's so unfamiliar to us, I think, like, a lot of the.

B (12:00)

Unless you're a Marvel fan. Unless you're a Marvel fan.

C (12:03)

Right, right, right, right.

B (12:05)

But no, thanks for sharing that. That's fun. Now do we know what happened? Like, did the Church of Corinth respond positively or negatively towards this letter? We at least have a copy of it, so.

C (12:17)

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean, we know things settle down eventually. I have to convince ignorance. I'm not sure if we know precisely how the thing ended up, but in time, it definitely settled down. And then this. This letter itself was extremely popular in the period that followed. It's quoted by. You said Irenaeus, but Eusebius and Clement of Alexandria and all of these people quote it as being a preeminent text.

B (12:48)

That's fascinating that even in the early church, it wasn't just a letter and they, you know, threw it away, but this is. They kept it.

C (12:53)

Right.

B (12:54)

They copied it. It spread throughout to other churches as, like, this is significant teaching. And.

C (13:00)

Yeah. And this is a good example of. It seems like Clement meant this both to address a specific. A specific situation, but also something that could be profitable to anyone, which it obviously is because we can read it today with such profit. But. And There are good examples of this, I think. For instance, he, he treats some liturgical questions, and he, even, he. Even so, he's, he's worried about the liturgical situation. On the one hand, just the schism, but maybe also how the liturgy is being celebrated. So he says that, that Christ taught his disciples that these things needed to be observed carefully and in good order. And so he seems worried about that. And he offers this really beautiful prayer at the end, which seems to be a kind of model for how a bishop or a priest might pray in, in the Mass, actually. So I, I, I thought I might just read.

B (13:53)

Yeah, please do that.

C (13:54)

Just a short excerpt. It, I think it gives you a sense of his. Well, I mean, the prayer itself is cosmic in scope, but also, also kind of warm in a way. So I'll just read this brief, brief little bit. You alone are the benefactor of spirits and the God of all flesh, looking into the depths, scanning the works of humans, the helper of those who are in peril, the Savior of those in despair, the Creator and guardian of every spirit. You multiply the nations upon the earth, and from among all of them, you have chosen those who love you. Through Jesus Christ, your beloved servant, through whom you instructed us, sanctified us, and honored and honor us, we ask you, Master, to be our helper and protector. Save those among us who are in distress. Have mercy on the humble. Raise up the fallen. Show yourself to those in need. Heal the sick. Turn back the those of your people who wander, feed the hungry, ransom our prisoners, Raise up the weak, comfort the discouraged.

B (14:55)

Yeah, that is beautiful. I mean, it's the cosmic nature, as you mentioned. And then, but really to the practical of, there are people that are hungry, there are people that are poor. There are people in the church that, you know in Corinth that he's writing to, but I'm sure he's also in Rome. He's thinking of caring for everybody.

C (15:10)

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's helpful in situations where there's discord to remember the cosmic, but also the lowly, on the one hand, to appeal to God as Creator and to all of creation and these really big ideas. It shows you sort of how small and stupid your conflict is.

B (15:27)

Use the perspective.

C (15:29)

Yeah. But then also the practical of people need help, people need to be clothed, people need to be fed. And you guys are just fighting about.

B (15:38)

Power and bad homilies.

C (15:40)

And bad homilies.

B (15:41)

That's why they ousted them, Right. They kicked their nose.

C (15:43)

That's good. That's right. Yeah. They were too long, right?

B (15:49)

Yeah.

C (15:49)

They weren't relevant enough. No. But, yeah, I think. Yeah. On the one hand you have the sick and on the other hand you have like the stars and all of creation.

B (15:57)

Yeah.

C (15:57)

And this should make you feel small on the one hand, stupid on the other.

B (16:01)

And just to connect it back to the Phoenix image of Jesus. Rose from the dead. He died and rose from the dead. We too will die and we hope to rise with him forever. The resurrection. So life is short.

C (16:13)

Yeah. Right.

B (16:14)

And so like he's. Get perspective, people like the God who created the universe came and became one of us to save us from our sins. He wants you to care and love the brother that you're with. Stop fighting.

C (16:24)

Yeah.

B (16:24)

He'll be your judge over it. He'll be. He's this. Yeah, this person is going to judge you someday.

C (16:29)

He's your savior. But.

B (16:30)

Yeah.

C (16:30)

Yeah, you should have some holy fear. Yeah.

B (16:33)

Well, that's beautiful. Anything else that you think that, you know, our audience, listeners and viewers might. What, you know, how, what we can learn from Clement today?

C (16:44)

Yeah. I think, I think on the one hand, just to contemplate this idea that after Christ died, rose, ascended into heaven and the Holy Spirit came upon the church, then something had to happen after the apostles to get us to today. And we have, we have a lot of beautiful witnesses and the Holy. The Holy Spirit has moved step by step. So Linus, Cletus, Clementius, all the things from all the popes and martyrs from the Eucharistic prayer. But God has worked through these, these really beautiful people to, to, to keep the church, keep the church united and keep love and humility, humility alive.

B (17:32)

That's beautiful. We get these little glimpses from this letter of Clement, of how the church is growing and developing. And we're at a point now that even though Clement will die a martyr, but he uses a little bit of time. He has to try to be the pastor and theologian or the help to the church in need.

C (17:53)

Yeah. Well said.

B (17:55)

Thank you, Carl, for joining me.

C (17:56)

Yeah. So glad to be here.

B (17:57)

Thank you for joining us. Remember that these are not the saints that we're discussing, real historical people, but are our friends in heaven, so we can pray to them. His feast day is November 23rd, so we say, Pope St. Clement, pray for us.

A (18:13)

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