St. Clement of Rome

Summary

Podcast Summary: Catholic Saints – Episode on St. Clement of Rome

Title: Catholic Saints
Host/Author: Augustine Institute
Episode: St. Clement of Rome
Release Date: November 23, 2024

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Introduction to St. Clement of Rome

In the November 23, 2024 episode of Catholic Saints, hosted by Dr. Ben Akers and featuring Professor Carl Venustrom from the Augustine Institute, listeners delve into the life and legacy of St. Clement of Rome, recognized as the first Apostolic Father and the fourth Pope in the early Catholic Church.

Dr. Ben Akers opens the discussion by highlighting Clement's pivotal role in the apostolic lineage, positioning him as a direct successor to the apostles Peter, Linus, and Cletus. He emphasizes the significance of studying such early saints to understand the foundational moments of the Church.

Dr. Ben Akers [01:08]:
"The Saints are real historical people that lived at a particular moment, they had their own challenges and they had their victories in their life."

Historical Context of Clement's Papacy

Professor Carl Venustrom provides a comprehensive overview of Clement's tenure as Pope, dating approximately from 91 to 102 AD. He explains that Clement's papacy is better documented than those of his immediate predecessors, Linus and Cletus, primarily due to his direct involvement in addressing significant controversies within the early Church.

Professor Carl Venustrom [03:20]:
"Clement really had that [dignity and spiritual depth]."`

The discussion underscores the tumultuous period in which Clement served, marked by schisms and challenges to Church unity. Unlike the sparse records of Linus and Cletus, Clement's contributions are preserved through his correspondence, particularly his letter to the Corinthian Church.

The Letter to the Corinthian Church

A focal point of the episode is Clement's famous letter, which addressed a schism in the Corinthian community. Dr. Akers and Professor Venustrom analyze the content and impact of this correspondence, shedding light on Clement's approach to conflict resolution and theological guidance.

Clement’s Address to Corinth [04:22]:
"He was Pope, like 91 to 102. So even just saying those dates, you get a sense of how close that is to Christ, but especially to Paul and John and all of the apostles."

Response to Controversy

The letter was a direct response to divisions within the Corinthian Church, where younger presbyters were challenging established leaders. Clement's intervention was crucial in quelling the discord and reinforcing the authority of the Roman Church.

Professor Carl Venustrom [05:32]:
"Clement gives what Pope Benedict says is a first act of Roman primacy."

Use of Scripture

Clement masterfully integrates both Old and New Testament references to persuade and guide the Corinthians towards repentance and unity. His appeals to familiar scriptures underscored the continuity and authority of his message.

Professor Carl Venustrom [07:16]:
"He appeals to the Old Testament constantly in this work."

Dr. Ben Akers [07:02]:
"We're in the early church and one of the early church heresies is going to be how does the Old Testament connect to the New Testament?"

Imagery and Metaphors

One of the most intriguing aspects of Clement's letter is his use of vivid imagery to illustrate theological concepts. Professor Venustrom highlights Clement's references to night turning into day, seeds germinating, and the mythological Phoenix as metaphors for resurrection and renewal.

Professor Carl Venustrom [09:10]:
"He gives these images for the resurrection, and one is night and day... And the other is from John, the seed that goes into the ground and decays, but then grows up as a plant. The third one... is of the Phoenix."

Themes in Clement's Letter

Unity and Humility

Clement emphasizes the importance of mutual love, humility, and obedience within the Church to maintain harmony and effective leadership. He draws parallels between the Roman army's discipline and the necessary order within the Christian community.

Professor Carl Venustrom [08:20]:
"It's a call to love and humility... everyone has to play their part, and when they do, there will be mutual love and peace and concord."

Apostolic Succession

A significant contribution of Clement's letter is the articulation of apostolic succession—the unbroken line of leadership from the apostles to current Church leaders. This concept underscores the legitimacy and continuity of the papal office.

Professor Carl Venustrom [10:48]:
"He talks about how would you be... the office doesn't just go away. It's actually an office that needs to be filled."

Mutual Love and Obedience

Clement advocates for a balance between authority and compassion, urging leaders and members alike to embrace their roles with love and humility.

Dr. Ben Akers [15:23]:
"Christ taught his disciples that these things needed to be observed carefully and in good order."

Legacy and Impact of Clement's Letter

The letter of St. Clement profoundly influenced early Church doctrine and governance. It was widely circulated and revered, with notable figures like Irenaeus, Eusebius, and Clement of Alexandria citing it as authoritative scripture. Its enduring popularity attests to its foundational role in shaping the theological and organizational framework of the Catholic Church.

Professor Carl Venustrom [12:45]:
"In time it definitely settled down. And then this letter itself was extremely popular in the period that followed."

Reflections and Lessons for Today

Akers and Venustrom reflect on the contemporary relevance of Clement's teachings. They emphasize the importance of unity, humility, and effective leadership within the modern Church, drawing parallels to the challenges faced by the early Christians.

Professor Carl Venustrom [17:12]:
"God has worked through these really beautiful people to keep the church united and keep love and human humility alive."

Conclusion and Call to Action

As the episode concludes, Dr. Akers encourages listeners to remember these early saints not just as historical figures but as spiritual allies who intercede on behalf of the faithful. He invites the audience to honor St. Clement on his feast day by seeking his intercession.

Dr. Ben Akers [18:25]:
"Remember that these are not the saints that we're discussing, real historical people, but are our friends in heaven, so we can pray to them."

Listeners are also reminded to engage with the Augustine Institute’s resources for deeper theological studies and community support.

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Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Ben Akers [01:08]:
  "The Saints are real historical people that lived at a particular moment, they had their own challenges and they had their victories in their life."

• Professor Carl Venustrom [04:22]:
  "He was Pope, like 91 to 102. So even just saying those dates, you get a sense of how close that is to Christ, but especially to Paul and John and all of the apostles."

• Professor Carl Venustrom [09:10]:
  "He gives these images for the resurrection, and one is night and day... The third one is of the Phoenix."

• Dr. Ben Akers [07:02]:
  "We're in the early church and one of the early church heresies is going to be how does the Old Testament connect to the New Testament?"

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Catholic Saints offers a profound exploration of St. Clement of Rome’s contributions to the early Church. Through insightful discussion and historical analysis, Dr. Akers and Professor Venustrom illuminate Clement’s enduring legacy, providing listeners with valuable lessons on leadership, unity, and faith that remain relevant today.

For those interested in further exploration, the Augustine Institute’s streaming service, Formed.org, offers a wealth of resources, including video interviews, studies, and family-friendly programming to support and deepen one’s faith journey.

Transcript

[Dr. Ben Akers]

This episode is brought to you by our friends at the Jesuit Refugee Service. They work in 58 countries accompanying and serving forcibly displaced people, providing life changing emergency assistance, education, mental health support and more to millions each year. Get to know their work. Visit jrsusa.org agustin.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

You're listening to a podcast on Catholic Saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustine Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live and share their faith.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Hello and welcome to Catholic Saints. Today we're going to be talking about the first apostolic father, the, the fourth Pope, so the third from Peter. Peter, Linus, Cletus and Clement. My name is Dr. Ben Akers. I'm the chief content officer here at the Augustine Institute and I'm joined with Professor Vennestrom, Carl Venustrom, who teaches at our graduate school. Thanks for joining me, Carl.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah, so glad to be here. Thanks.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

So we're talking about, I love the series that we go through with the Saints because. And you have responded as viewers and as listeners that you have also enjoyed listening to the saints and the conversations that we have with the professors because the Saints are real historical people that lived at a particular moment, they had their own challenges and they had their victories in their life. And one of the things I love about St. Clement is he's so early to the apostles.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Right.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

And we even have like Irenaeus, one of the early church doctor and father of the church that writes and says, yeah, he actually met the apostles. He talked to him. It almost as if he had the ringing of the apostles preaching in his ears.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah, yeah, that's a really beautiful thing. Yeah. You have, yeah, Pope St. Clement the first and then Ignatius of Antioch, who Irenaeus talks about in similar terms. He's more connected with John. So you have these different trajectories you can follow. Yeah, it's this beautiful thing. We have St. Clement, he's the first of these popes after Peter that we hear from in the historical record. And yet the, the popes before him were serving as popes and anointing the sick and celebrating the Eucharist and doing all these things that were necessary to move the Church forward.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

And they were killed.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

And they were killed and martyred. Yeah, yeah, precisely. Yeah. So there's this beautiful witness. We don't skip to Augustine and then Aquinas and then Pope Francis and then us. Today there's people in every little nook and cranny of that whole history that aren't just taking up space, but are these beautiful witnesses to Christ's life.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

No, I like that you mentioned that we actually don't have information about Linus and cletus, really. Pope 2 and Pope 3. But what kind to be the kind of men that are chosen by the priests, that are the deacons that are in Rome at the time to say, this person will succeed Peter. Yeah, like the Peter, the AP who knew Jesus and received the keys of the kingdom from Jesus, that they saw it as an office that needed to be, you know, needed a successor, needed to be replaced.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Right. Yeah, yeah. It's difficult shoes to fill, like. Yeah, it's like following a great football coach or something. Like, who's the next football coach of the New England Patriots going to be, like Bill Belichick. But, yeah, yeah, they still. They must have had great dignity and spiritual depth and this ability to lead the Christian people. And it seems like Clement really had that. So what do we know about Clement?

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Why do we know more about him than Linus and Cletus?

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Right. Partially, I think, because he responded to a controversy. So he was Pope, like 91 to 102. So even just saying those dates, you get a sense of how close that is to Christ, but especially to Paul and John and all of the apostles. But he's remembered particularly because we have this letter from him and there are other works attributed to him. You know, you did something really right. If people start claiming, yeah, people put their work from.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Wrote this.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah, that's right. I can only hope. Yeah. But there is one authentic work, which is this letter to the Corinthian Church, and it echoes in a lot of ways Paul's letters to them, because.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Are you saying that the church in Corinth didn't listen to Paul the first time or the second time?

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. They were habitual abusers. So, yeah, they tried with Paul and then they brought in the popes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was this controversy. So there were presbyters who were upended by these young upstarts of some kind. And this resulted in a schism between these groups. And so Pope Clement gives what Pope Benedict says is a first act of Roman primacy. So he actually doesn't name himself at the beginning of the letter, but he identifies himself sort of as the Roman Church. The Roman Church writes to you, or the Church in Rome writes to you. And so there's this kind of weightiness, even to the beginning of the letter.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

That'S striking, that it is historically striking that this person in Rome, in the Western part of this empire, sees it as his duty to respond to a controversy that's in the east that he has that kind of self understanding of his position and his role as Holy Father.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah, that's right.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

To solve a problem in another part of the Church when Corinth is actually closer to Ephesus, which is where John. There's a chance that John the apostle is still alive and living in Ephesus. Who's another apostle, actually an apostle of Jesus Christ and Clement's third down from an apostle.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Right, yeah. That gives you a sense of how the hierarchy of the Church works. And there are these different gifts and roles and the role of apostle is one of the most important. But in the question of like doctrine and church order and morals. Yeah, they turn to Rome and it seems like probably some people in Corinth went to him for help, or at least that's likely that he would have heard about it somehow. And. Yeah.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Now what does he do? How does he write the letter? Is it all stern? Is it all fire and brimstone? Or what's the gist of the letter?

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

So I think he encourages people to repentance and he gives these examples of. He gives these examples from the Old Testament of repentance and the failure to repent. And he grounds for that for a.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Second because that's actually fascinating too, because we're in the early church and one of the early church heresies is going to be how does the Old Testament connect to the New Testament?

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah, that's right.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

And so he's off the bat saying, no, we could turn to the Old Testament for actually guidance in this situation.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Definitely. Yeah. He appeals to the Old Testament constantly in this work. And at this point, the New Testament is so fresh and there's still going to be debates about which works are included in it. And actually this work itself is quoted by some church fathers as scripture. So, like, yeah, it comes to have this incredible weight. But yeah, it helps reinforce this idea. At this time, he's. Yeah, he's just in the thick of it. And everyone's. All orthodox Christians are turned into the Old Testament for guidance in these kind of questions. That's right. Yeah.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

So he. So he has this letter. He's going through Old Testament examples and New Testament examples of, you know, if you mess with the rulers, it doesn't end well for you.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. And he's a. He's a good Roman because he. He says, consider the Roman army, like what works? You know, like. Yeah, can you think of a system that works? The Roman army is pretty good and everyone Stays in their place. But he doesn't stop there. It's not just like, we're going to be the military.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yeah.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

It's a call to love and humility. So, yeah, you have to obey. But there has to be this mutual love between. And he borrows a lot of images from Paul that the head and the body. And everyone has to play their part, and when they do, there will be mutual love and peace and concord.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Seems like he knows his audience. He's also diplomatic. He knows his audience well. Hey, you guys have received two letters from St. Paul.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Let me remind you of those letters.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to read those allusions and quotations. Yeah. I kind of dig. I mean, maybe it's not playful, but yeah, I kind of like. Yeah, he cuts to the quick, certainly. Yeah.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Is there anything striking in the letter that you think would be. The reader might enjoy, the listener might enjoy.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah, yeah. There's one kind of fun thing in the middle of the letter. There's this. He gives these images for the resurrection, and one is night and day. So night gives way to day and light, obviously. And the other is from John, the seed that goes into the ground and decays, but then grows up as a plant. The third one, which is less familiar, is of the Phoenix. So he tells the story. There's this phoenix in Arabia, and every 500 years, it makes this coffin, like, nest.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

This bird.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah, yeah, this bird. Yeah. And it makes this coffin, like, nest with myrrh and this kind of incense. And not incense, but frankincense. And then it dies, and a worm is born, and the worm eats the flesh, and then it grows up into a bird and then carries the bones to the temple of a heliopolis in Egypt. And everybody knows about this, and they keep records. And it's every 500 years. And this is image for the Incarnation. And on the one hand, it's kind of taking this Roman myth or idea and baptizing it. So it would have been something that everyone is familiar with, and it would have given them just, like, one more little lens to think about the resurrection of Christ. But I was actually thinking the really important thing or one really important contribution that Clement makes is to this idea of apostolic succession. And so he talks about how would you be.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Like how the apostles were instituted by Christ.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Exactly.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

And then when they die, the office doesn't just go away. It's actually an office that needs to be filled.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Filled by successors. Yeah. And priests have to be anointed and made priests with the Holy Spirit. Right. And of course, he's part of this tradition. And, yeah, that's one way to think of the image of the Phoenix, too. And there's the image of martyrdom. The Phoenix is carrying the bones, like we're. We're carrying the memory and especially the memory of martyrs in imitation of Christ, forward into the future from the past. And Clement is an excellent example of this. And I know you were.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

I like that. You know, as you say, like, let's talk about the Phoenix. I was struck by, again, having lived in Rome, that some of the churches have these most. These beautiful mosaics in the apps, the little stones that they put, and they have the saints and images of Christ and Mary. But there's a couple places in Rome where there's actually like a palm tree. And on top of the palm tree is a phoenix bird. And in one of them, distinctly, and I'm trying to think exactly which church it is, the phoenix has a halo on it. It was just always as you could visit the church, like, why does that bird have a halo on it? Because it's a Christ image.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. There's these. There's a lot of beautiful images. Like, the pelican is another one where.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

The idea is that the pelican will strike her own breast.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Breast.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

And feed her children with the blood.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

With the blood. Yeah. So it's the image of the Eucharist. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But, yeah, the Phoenix is kind of a fun one because it's so unfamiliar to us. I think a lot of the images.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Unless you're a Marvel fan. Unless you're a Marvel fan.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Right, right.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

No, thanks for sharing that. That's fun. Now do we know what happened? Like, did the Church of Corinth respond positively or negatively towards this letter? We at least have a copy of it, so.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean, we know things settle down eventually. I have to convince ignorance. I'm not sure if we know precisely how the thing ended up, but, I mean, in time it definitely settled down. And then this. This letter itself was extremely popular in the period that followed. It's quoted by. You said Irenaeus, but Eusebius and Clement of Alexandria and all of these people quote it as being a preeminent text.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

That's fascinating that even in the early church, it wasn't just a letter and they threw it away. But this is. They kept it, they copied it. It spread throughout to other churches as like, this is significant teaching.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah. And this is a good example of it seems like Clement meant this both to Address a specific. A specific situation, but also something that could be profitable to anyone, which it obviously is because we can read it today with such profit. But. And there are good examples of this, I think. For instance, he. He treats some liturgical questions, and he. Even so, he's. He's worried about the liturgical situation on. On the one hand, just the schism, but maybe also how the liturgy is being celebrated. So he says that Christ taught his disciples that these things needed to be observed carefully and in good order. And so he seems worried about that. And he offers this really beautiful prayer at the end, which seems to be a kind of model for how a bishop or a priest might pray in the Mass, actually. So I thought I might just read.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yeah, please do. That'd be great.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Just a short excerpt. I think it gives you a sense of his. Well, I mean, the prayer itself is cosmic in scope, but also kind of warm in a way. So I'll just read this brief little bit. You alone are the benefactor of spirits and the God of all flesh, looking into the depths, scanning the works of humans, the helper of those who are in peril, the Savior of those in despair, the Creator and guardian of every spirit. You multiply the nations upon the earth, and from among all of them, you have chosen those who love you. Through Jesus Christ, your beloved servant, through whom you instructed us, sanctified us, and honor us. We ask you, Master, to be our helper and protector. Save those among us who are in distress. Have mercy on the humble. Raise up the fallen, show yourself to those in need, heal the sick. Turn back those of your people who wander, feed the hungry, ransom our prisoners, raise up the weak, comfort the discouraged. Yeah.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

That is beautiful. I mean, it's the cosmic nature, as you mentioned, and then. But really to the practical of, there are people that are hungry, there are people that are poor. There are people in the church that, you know, in Corinth that he's writing to, but I'm sure he's also in Rome. He's thinking of caring for everybody.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's helpful in situations where there's discord to remember the cosmic but also the lowly. On the one hand, to appeal to God as Creator and to all of creation and these really big ideas. It shows you sort of how small and stupid your conflict is.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Exactly. Give you some perspective.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah. But then also the practical of people need help, people need to be clothed, people need to be fed. And you guys are just fighting about.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Power and bad homilies.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

And bad homilies.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

That's what? The alcism. Right. They kicked in the house. That's kidding.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

That's right. Yeah. They were too long, right? Yeah. They weren't relevant enough. No. But, yeah, I think. Yeah. On the one hand, you have the sick. On the one other hand, you have the stars in all of creation. And this should make you feel small on the one hand, stupid on the other.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

And just to connect it back to the Phoenix image of Jesus. Rose from the dead. He died and rose from the dead. We too will die and we hope to rise with him forever. The resurrection. So life is short.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah. Right.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

And so like, he's. Get perspective, people like the God who created the universe came and became one of us to save us from our sins. He wants you to care and love the brother that you're with. Stop fighting. Yeah.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

He'll be your judge.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yeah. This person is going to judge you someday.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

He's your savior. But you should have some holy fear. Yeah.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Well, that's beautiful. Anything else that you think that our audience, listeners and viewers might. What? You know, how. What we can learn from Clement today?

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah, I think, I think on the one hand, just to contemplate this idea that after Christ died, rose, ascended into heaven and the Holy Spirit came upon the church, then something had to happen after the apostles to get us to today. And we have. We have a lot of beautiful witnesses and the Holy. The Holy Spirit has moved step by step. So Linus, Cletus, Clemens. Exactly. All the things from all the popes and martyrs from the Eucharistic prayer. But God has worked through these really beautiful people to keep the church united and keep love and human humility alive.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

That's beautiful. We get these little glimpses from this letter of Clement of how the church is growing and developing. And we're at a point now that even though Clement will die a martyr, but he uses a little bit of time. He has to try to be the pastor and theologian or the help to the church in need.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah. Well said.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Thank you, Carl, for joining me.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

Yeah. So glad to be here.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Thank you for joining us. Remember that these are not the saints that we're discussing, real historical people, but are our friends in heaven, so we can pray to them. His feast day is November 23rd, so we say, Pope St. Clement, pray for us.

[Professor Carl Venustrom]

You can watch these interviews in video format by visiting form.org formed is an online Catholic streaming service created by the Augustine Institute and Ignatius Press. With award winning studies and parish programs, inspiring audio content, movies, ebooks, and family friendly kids programming to support the mission of the Augustine Institute, please visit missioncircle.org.