B (2:09)

So presumably we don't know why he converted, what brought it about.

C (2:12)

No, not a lot. Not a lot. So he becomes Catholic in about 246 and very quickly is elevated to the episcopacy. So he becomes Bishop around 248, which is unusual, but less unusual then than it might be now.

D (2:28)

Yes.

B (2:29)

Which might be interesting for people to hear that.

C (2:31)

But yeah, we have a life of Cyprian. That doesn't give us many details. But by a deacon named Pontian or Pontius. I actually can't remember even. I forget things. Taylor.

B (2:44)

That's good. See? Makes us all feel better.

C (2:46)

Well, I guess so. So we'll call him Ponti. Ponti the Deacon. He actually sort of apologizes for the fact that Cyprian was made a bishop so quickly because Paul in First Timothy says that bishops shouldn't be recent converts. He's like, well, he's the exception that proves the rule because he was pretty great.

B (3:04)

Stephen Ambrose him.

C (3:05)

And yeah, Ambrose was even more extreme catechumen to bishop.

B (3:09)

Okay, so he becomes Catholic. He is quickly ordained to be a bishop. What happens next?

C (3:17)

Oh my gosh, all heck breaks loose. Okay, so we think he became a bishop in about 248. The following year there was a new Roman emperor, a guy named Decius. Okay. And Decius was sort of kind of an old school military man. And the empire that he, that he stepped into as ruler was kind of in a bit of disarray. There were, it's known as the crisis of the third century. And it gets pretty complicated, but it's a time of real turmoil. And Decius is like, you know what, we need some good old time religion.

D (4:00)

Right.

C (4:00)

And of course, in his case, surprising from the emperor.

B (4:03)

I guess it would depend on what he means by old time religion.

C (4:06)

Well, he means Roman religion.

B (4:07)

Oh, there you go.

C (4:08)

He means pagan religion.

B (4:08)

It's not good. I take it back.

C (4:10)

Yeah. And so this, this becomes in effect the first empire wide persecution of Christians.

D (4:17)

Right.

C (4:19)

Why? Because Decius orders that all citizens have to offer sacrifice to the Roman gods.

D (4:28)

Right.

C (4:28)

And they have to obtain what's called, it was called a libellus, like a little certificate saying that they had done.

B (4:35)

So related to that. So it's interesting and I do. Some of these things are coming back from your class.

D (4:40)

Oh, that's good.

B (4:40)

It is good. But that this, correct me if I'm wrong. It's not like the emperor's coming forth and saying necessarily like we need to deepen our faith in the gods per se. He's trying to figure out how do I unite people, how do I pull this together?

C (4:56)

Yeah, I think that's fair. But I also think, I mean Decius as kind of a good conservative Roman, thought of the relationship with the gods as kind of one of appeasement that would earn their protection.

D (5:11)

Right.

C (5:11)

So things are going badly. Well, we need to appease the gods. We need to all be on the same page in honoring the gods so that the gods will honor us, so to speak. By supplying peace and tranquility.

B (5:22)

So he does kind of have a vertical and horizontal view of it. Vertical in the sense of we need to appeal, appease the gods. That'll bring us back to some stable ground, but then also knowing, like, you can really unite a people through belief, for sure.

C (5:36)

And I do think it's fair to say that in the Empire, both of those dimensions were somewhat understood. So we often talk about the Pax Romana. Right, the Roman peace, but they would also have the pax deorum, the peace of the gods.

D (5:51)

Right.

C (5:51)

The idea that this peace, this concord, prosperity in the empire was a gift from the gods.

B (5:55)

Interesting. Okay, so Cyprian is. Is made a bishop. This is a time of chaos. Dus becomes the emperor. He wants to implement some.

C (6:07)

Yeah, there's an edict that goes out end of 249, beginning of 250, somewhere in there.

B (6:12)

Okay.

C (6:12)

Everyone has everybody to offer sacrifice.

B (6:14)

Offer sacrifice. Okay, so what does that mean for Cyprian or the people of God?

C (6:19)

Oh, what a headache.

B (6:20)

Yeah.

D (6:20)

Right.

C (6:21)

So it's. It's actually kind of interesting, even though we think of the ancient church as a kind of time of constant persecutions, and there had been persecutions in the preceding decades, but there had been several decades at this point, of relative peace. And it is amazing, Taylor, as I think many of us can relate to how quickly we become complacent. And so Cyprian actually has to deal with a flock who. Not all of whom were really ready for a persecution.

D (6:53)

Right.

C (6:54)

Because what did this mean? Well, it might actually mean red martyrdom.

D (6:58)

Right.

C (6:59)

It might mean fleeing. And they weren't gonna, like, chase you down necessarily, but they were gonna confiscate your property. Okay, so Cyprian himself was not martyred at this time because he decided it was important for him to be available for his flock when things sort of subsided. And he was criticized for this, and so he defended that decision. And as we'll get to later, he was eventually martyred. So he kind of proved himself that it wasn't out of cowardice that he fled, but that meant giving up all of his possessions. They were all seized by the government.

B (7:35)

Which is a true test, for sure. All of us would like to think are working toward being detached from this world, but it's like, when it really hits you, you're like, oh, whoa. What am I willing to give up from a material sense, from a location of my home, of relationships, of whatever? The idea of the thing and the reality of the thing are often completely different, for sure.

C (7:58)

And you know, it's interesting that Cyprian even blames clergy for this too. He says even bishops, he says we're acting like. He says it's basically managers of worldly affairs. They were more busy with sort of secular concerns than they were with feeding the flock of Christ and with preparing themselves to be leaders. Now, there was a lot of heroism, okay? So Cyprian fled and then came back his contemporary, who was the bishop of Alexandria, the other major city in Africa. Right. In Egypt, he also fled Dionysus of Alexandria. He also became a saint. The Roman bishop, the pope at the time, Fabian did not flee and he was martyred as was his successor.

D (8:47)

Right.

C (8:48)

So there was a lot of heroism, but there was also a lot of mediocrity. And so one of the big challenges of Cyprian's career was what do you do? Putting the pieces back together because he comes back to Carthage and you do have martyrs. You have others who were put in prison but weren't actually martyred. Some of them are actually causing problems because of all the prestige that attaches to that.

D (9:12)

Right.

C (9:13)

On top of that, you have Christians who had apostatized, who had just given in and offered sacrifice. You had others who had like paid someone off to forge a libellus for them to forge a certificate so that they wouldn't get in trouble.

D (9:32)

Right.

C (9:33)

How do you kind of deal with all these? And this is one of the things that I think we can really admire from Cyprian is kind of his hard nosed pastoral sensibilities. And you actually see him negotiating these things with a lot of different viewpoints around the table. I mean, obviously passions can be heightened in a situation like this, a crisis like this. And he's trying to find the right path between the rigorists who are like, look, if you apostatized, you're done for. And there were. This actually led to a schism. And there was a rigorous group called the Novationists who actually said that the church cannot reconcile people who've apostatized.

D (10:15)

Right.

C (10:16)

Cyprian's like, no, that's not true. But on the other hand, you had people who were laxists, who were sort of like, oh, well, forgive and forget. Let's just sort of move on.

D (10:24)

Okay?

B (10:24)

It was a tough situation.

C (10:25)

Cyprian's like, you're not taking seriously enough the fact that you betrayed the Lord who shed his blood for you.

B (10:33)

In a public sense.

C (10:34)

Yeah, in a public sense, Right. And so he talks a lot about the job, job of a real pastor to be like a good doctor. And to apply the right medicine, even when the patient doesn't really want to take his medicine. And it might be painful.

D (10:50)

Right.

C (10:50)

But that ultimately it's for their health and salvation.

B (10:54)

Yeah, it's. You gotta love the saints. One of the great gifts of the saints is that they take the gospel truths and then bring them into whatever the present day circumstances is, which is. And this is such a complex thing. And I do feel like it's. It's far afield for at least a lot of us that are in America, because we're not. We're not facing a kind of red martyrdom threat. But when you look at like the layers of complexity here, when you're talking about the rigorous and the laxus and the apostasized and the people who paid off, you have people who outright, publicly participate in a thing, then you take a step back and you've got people who allowed it to be presented as if they did, but in fact they didn't. But that's still a public witness. And then you have like the prestige of the people who were martyred. It's, it is a. It's a great gift to be able to rely on the saints to help us. How do we interpret the things in front of us as they relate to the truths that are never changing?

D (11:50)

Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right.

C (11:52)

Yeah. Yeah. So he sort of, you know, tried to guide the church through that, and really that occupied a lot of the rest of his life.

D (12:01)

Right.

C (12:01)

So he was. There were controversies that arose from this and he even butted heads with the Pope over dealing with some of these issues. And it's interesting that we've canonized Cyprian along with Pope Stephen, whom he butted heads with. Pope Stephen's position was the right one, but you sort of see this, that these are men who deeply understand themselves to be responsible to the Lord for the task that they've been given as bishops. And so even when they have theological disagreements about how to kind of. There is theology that underlies these pastoral decisions.

D (12:41)

Right.

C (12:43)

Real pastoral theology is never something separate from doctrine. And so it is kind of beautiful too, to see both of them canonized.

B (12:53)

Yeah. And in a sense, subject to the Church for sure. Writ large that even in the midst of we're talking about two saints, that neither one in themselves carried the authoritative endpoint of where doctrine lies. They contributed to it, but it was actually within the clash of them that the Church works out where things stand.

C (13:14)

Yeah, no, I think that's well said. And we won't get into the details. Not because they're not interesting, they're very interesting and I love to talk about them. But it would take us too far afield. And I think there are some other things we can learn from Cyprian. I do want to just mention, as I said earlier, that he was eventually martyred. So there was another persecution that broke out in 257. He didn't flee this time. He was arrested and first exiled and then he was put to death by the sword in 258. And the deacon that I was calling Ponti, since I still can't remember his exact name, it's actually really moving when he talks about that day and how it was a hot day, there wasn't a cloud in the sky. And he sort of saw a beauty in that. The radiance of the sun showing the true victory that Cyprian would enjoy.

B (14:02)

That's cool.

C (14:03)

But then how they had to. They marched in this place and he sat down and he was sweating, but that he just sort of took the suffering and he's like, look, I'm about to die, it doesn't matter. And then just his self possession that he blindfolded himself and then had to kind of give encouragement to the executioner who was kind of feeling shaky. And then it seems to be the case that those who are sort of there to honor Bishop Cyprian were able to get his garments which were soaked in his blood and able to venerate those as relics. And he's the most famous martyr of North Africa. He was actually the first, I believe, the first priest or bishop of Carthage to be martyred. And so it was a huge cult of St. Cyprian into the 4th century and later. So we have a lot of like Augustine talking about Cyprian because Cyprian was sort of the greatest local hero in his time.

B (14:59)

That's great. Well, we are wrapping up here. Dr. Seehorn. Would you mind giving just maybe a couple final points of reflection or things that we can from things we talked about today from St. Cyprian that we could kind of carry into our world and thought and reflection today.

C (15:15)

Yeah, maybe let me peel back a little bit, kind of the surface of what we were talking about. And it seems to me that if you really want to see Cyprian's heart, it's important to read a lot of his works. But one that to me has been very valuable is a treatise he wrote on the Lord's Prayer, where he gives a kind of commentary on the Lord's Prayer. What does it mean for Christians to pray. Why do we pray this way? What do we mean by each of these petitions? And maybe just take three quick glances at it, Right? The first is he really emphasizes the fact that we call God our Father and that we can only do so because of our baptism, because of our rebirth into the sonship of Jesus, who not only gave us the words to pray, but whose voice we pray in.

D (16:01)

Right.

C (16:01)

Only Christ can truly call God our Father. And that becomes the kind of basis for everything else that Cyprian understands about himself and the church is that share in Christ's sonship. Another really beautiful moment in the treatise is when he talks about the petition give us this day our daily bread. He interprets that very strongly eucharistically, right? So it seems that at least some Christians were receiving communion every day already in the third century in North Africa. But he says something interesting that's challenging to me. He says, okay, so if you're going to pray for that every day, that means you're also praying that you wouldn't be separated from Christ's body by a serious sin.

D (16:37)

Right?

C (16:38)

And then at the very end, he recognized we do commit sins every day. So he's talking about, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Not quite the end. And there he talks about our need for forgiveness, but also our need to extend it to others. And this brings us to, like, one of the most profound things about St. Cyprian that I think we can all receive and that the Church actually in recent times has invited us to contemplate. And it's this. As we forgive those who trespass against us. He points to Jesus teaching in Matthew 5 about how if you're going to offer your sacrifice and you realize your brother has something against you, to God and be reconciled. First, Cyprian says the greatest sacrifice that we offer is our peace and harmony with one another. Why? Because as Christians, as the Church, we are a people who are made one in the unity of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. That's a line that's actually quoted in the Second Vatican Council in the document on the Church, inviting us to recognize that we're not just a club. We're not just people who agree with each other. We're not even just people who've committed to be nice to each other or committed to a certain way of life. We're people who are made one by the gracious share of the Trinity's own unity.

D (17:54)

Right?

C (17:54)

And that this should mark our very existence the church is a gift. It's not something that we've accomplished.

B (18:00)

Yep. And you know, that is such a great kind of call. Because it's something. I wouldn't say that. That is something. I've heard kind of that explicitly. That one of the fundamental aspects of being a Christian and as relates to communion, as it relates to confession, is living in that unity with one another that we often talk about. The importance of unity, of doctrine of faith, which is of course so important. But that unity of mind and heart and body that is so dependent upon our offering that forgiveness to others, for sure. Allowing ourselves to ask for forgiveness to God first, but also to each other, that is just. Yeah, it's a powerful call.

C (18:43)

And receiving our identity precisely from the church. Cyprian is also famous for saying that you can't have God for your father if you don't have the church for your mother.

B (18:52)

You should write that down.

D (18:53)

It's a great point.

C (18:54)

And think about the way that we ought to honor our mother.

B (18:58)

Yep. That is beautiful, Dr. Seymour. Thank you. This was a great kind of quick glance at Cyprian. We can never cover the saints to the extent that we would like. Any, any final comments?

C (19:10)

No, that's it. Just ask recipient's prayers and pray for faithfulness to the Church that he gave his life for and to his Lord.

D (19:18)

Amen.

B (19:18)

Well, thank you so much for joining us. We will see you next time on Catholic Saints.

A (19:22)

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