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St. David
00:20:53
Mary McGeehan and Dr. James Prothro discuss King David and the proper veneration of Old Testament figures. David is a great example of a "man after God's own Heart" who, throughout his ups and downs, remains faithful, modeling repentance and forgiveness.
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- [00:02]
A
You're listening to a podcast on Catholic Saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustine Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live, and share their faith.
- [00:22]
B
Welcome to Catholic Saints. My name is Mary and I'm with Dr. James Prothero. Thank you for joining.
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A
Thanks for having me.
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B
Glad to have you. What do you do here at the GUTS Institute?
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A
I teach. So I'm a professor of scripture and theology and mostly I teach the courses on the New Testament, biblical interpretation, and ancient languages.
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B
Okay. What first started your interest in scriptural studies?
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A
Oh, my gosh.
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B
Curveball question.
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A
I mean, so my dad. So I'm a convert to Catholicism, but when I was young, mom would take me to church. My dad went to a non denominational church and brought me up to know. Even though I didn't always get the message or want to believe, it just brought me up to rely strongly on Scripture and to want to know about it. So I think I read. I was like nine years old, I think, and I read the book of Exodus from beginning to end. That was the first time that I really read a whole Bible book and I liked it. And then when I started coming back to the faith a little bit in college, I came back and I read the Sermon on the Mount and I read Galatians and I read Colossians and was hooked because I was getting a little bit more theology. And then after that, I just kind of haven't really wanted to stop talking about it.
- [01:48]
B
We're grateful that the Holy Spirit has led you on this path because we are very blessed to learn from you here. So this episode, we want to talk about St. David from the Old Testament. I usually refer to him more as King David. I know he wrote the book of Psalms or was the inspiration. We can talk about that more. But we want to talk about St. David. And let's first just preface. How do we. How do we call some characters in the Old Testament? Saints?
- [02:19]
A
Yeah. So I mean, so the. The term saint, right? From. From Latin, sanctus just. Just means holy, right? So in one sense we can refer to any person who is. Who that's confirmed to be holy as a. As sanctus. In English, it's a little confusing because it's like a title, right? We don't. We just call certain types of people saint, but in. In other languages. Right. It's also just the adjective for holy. So it's like saying Holy David, right? In English, it would be like saying that, right? Holy David, Holy Elijah, Holy Michael. Right?
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B
English limits us again.
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A
Y. Yeah, yeah. We can talk about That a long time too. But so David, we can't, I mean, it's just fine to call him King David. You're not robbing him of anything by calling him King David as opposed to St. David. And that's not a super strong thing to my knowledge, at least in the tradition to make sure to call him that. But we venerate certain figures from the Old Testament as people that we're fairly confident came with Jesus when he went to go bring all the people and open the gates of heaven after his death. And David was, as the Old Testament says, as God says, raised a man after my own heart, a man after God's own heart. And he is a major figure both as a kind of type. Right. A prefiguring of Jesus. Not always in a good way. Right. Sometimes in a negative way, but he's definitely a pre figuring of Jesus. And he's one who when he sinned significantly, took his penalty and also prayed and received God's forgiveness. And so he is also for us a great example of a wonderful and faithful person of God who proved to be faithful overall even though he had significant failings.
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B
Yes.
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A
And that's an important part of his story and one of the reasons that we want to think about him and remember him.
- [04:11]
B
We do really get the whole life story of David, unlike some of the other characters. So it's almost like we have all of his social media profiles. We've seen his ups and his downs. We know a lot about his story throughout the Old Testament. But thank you, that is helpful. We have, we can take with great confidence that we can call this a holy man of God and look to him for as a great example of what it's like to. Yeah. To be a follower of God. So where should we begin about David? What do you think within his story is worth highlighting?
- [04:47]
A
Oh man, this. It depends on what we're looking.
- [04:50]
B
Broadest question ever.
- [04:51]
A
Well, like, it depends on what we're looking for. So the first and foremost is David. David's repentance when he has sinned significantly with Bathsheba and Uriah. And you can find this in two Samuel. And David on the one hand is a kind of model of sinfulness. Right. That he doesn't go out with his armies to war one year as a king and he gazes upon a woman whose husband is off fighting. But while he's just lounging around in the palace, Caesar, the delight of the eyes. Just like with Eve and Adam. Right. Looking at the tree. Right. The tree was delightful to the eyes, looked like it would be tasty for food and that it would give them higher status, give them pride, whatever. And David sees with his eyes, and he doesn't say no to his eyes. We've all had that experience, right? And then what you want to do is you want to like the temptation that you see, the thing that tempts you to turn off the right path. You want to say no to that, right? But he doesn't say no. He kind of leans into it and he says, hey, somebody go get that lady and bring her here. And then he uses his power to have her brought to him. And then he doesn't say no to his desire for physical gratification, the taste, the lust of his flesh, right? And commits a terrible sin against her and against her husband and against himself and of course, against God. And then after that, right, not only has he done that, right, but when she turns up pregnant and he realizes that he might get caught, he calculates. And his pride is to make him hold on to his position so that he doesn't have to say sorry and he can get away with it. And he has her husband brought back, tries to get her husband to go spend the night with his wife, thinking, oh, this would be great. And her husband, Uriah, is like, no, my men are still out there. You called me back for a bogus reason, it seems. I don't know why I'm here, but. But all the other guys are still out there suffering away from their family, so I'm not going to do that. And David gets mad, and then he just has him killed and takes her for himself. And he keeps. He says yes to his desire, then he says yes to his lusts physically. And then he says yes to his pride to try to cover all this up. And it causes him to create a snowball. Exactly, Just snowballs. He doesn't stop himself at any point, right? And we're all capable of that kind of a thing, right? Maybe not with this specific sin, but maybe with others that beset us. But then God's prophet Nathan comes to him and says, hey, this is what you've done. He tells him a story to kind of put it in perspective for David. And then David weeps and says, I have sinned before the Lord. And Nathan says, God has forgiven you, but there will be consequences to your sin. And David accepts them. David's like a penitent, because we go in, we tell the priest our sins, we tell God our sins, right? And we hear the words of absolution, but we also hear that There are consequences. Right. Things that we will need to make up for, things that we have to live with, whether they're natural or whether they're imposed. Right. And they need to be taken care of with penance. And we see that happen at other points with misdeeds of David.
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B
I think that's great. We get to really follow his story of great victories, which I'd love to hear some highlights of that as well. What are some of those great victory moments of his virtue. But then the story as well, just, you know, his. His deep fall into sinfulness and then his. His acceptance of repentance and the consequences of it. And just that redemption story, I think, is really good to highlight.
- [08:46]
A
Yeah. And we, you know, so Psalm 51 is. Is a. Is a prayer that recalls. So David has left us so many Psalms and then so many psalms that he inspired as well.
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B
Did he recall. So can you. Did he write all the psalms, or. What do you mean when you said he inspired some of the Psalms?
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A
Well, so the style of many of the Psalms seems to be in imitation of Psalms of David. We're told that David did compose psalms. And then in the actual book of Psalms themselves, we have lots of them that start off with a little thing that says, which means for David or to David, or maybe by David.
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B
Okay.
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A
Usually it's been translated as by David, but there's a breadth of possibility here. But whether or not he did them himself, and this is exactly what he. Everything that he wrote, he wrote down with his own pen. There's also lots of other Psalms that don't say that. They say a Psalm of Asaph. Right. Or a Psalm of so and so.
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B
Were they all roughly there from the same time period?
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A
No.
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B
No. Okay.
- [09:57]
A
Yeah. So assuming that several of the Psalms are directly from David or that they start with David, which I think is a fair assumption, a good one, then we have stuff from about a thousand B.C. and then we have psalms that go all the way toward like, 500 B.C. when. When the exile comes.
- [10:19]
B
I didn't realize that.
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A
That's really interesting. Yeah. So the Psalms are all. Are from a broad swath of Israel's history.
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B
Okay. Yes. But to your point, they do also give us a window of David.
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A
Yeah, that's right. And several of them specifically reference moments in David's Life. And Psalm 51 is one of those. Right? Yep. And so this is one where we hear the voice of David and we join our voices to it, say, have mercy on me, O God, in accordance with your merciful love, we say, create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from your presence. Right. Don't take your spirit from me. All of these are things that are from David, from David's life in this episode in his life, and that we get to join our voice. Voices with. Right. Because David's story is our story. Right. And in the history of the church, at different points, depending on which kind of like calendar. Right. If you're a monk, the church has been praying this prayer several times a week. Minimum once a week. And it's still in the daily office, the Brevary on Friday.
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B
I like that. Our story.
- [11:38]
A
Yeah, exactly. So this isn't one that we can paper over and put past. The church has consistently given us this to put in our own mouths to say. Right. Because our story is David's, and we know how it ended, which was with forgiveness and with David in some ways paying for the consequences of his sin for the rest of his life. The way that it played out in his family, the effects that it had, but also seeing the beauty of what God did with it. Because the next son that he has with this same woman that he took, Bathsheba, is King Solomon, who builds the temple, who has his own failings, but also great triumphs for the Lord, just as David does. Right.
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B
Yeah, just that cliche phrase God writes. God makes straight with the crooked lines. Kind of an example.
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A
Exactly.
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Of his providence through all of it.
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A
Yeah, exactly.
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B
What were some of then the, you know, the key. Yes. David. Virtue moments in the Old Testament where we just really see, you know, his great virtue and authority almost. Or. I mean. Yeah, Any really highlight of. We just get to see his goodness.
- [12:41]
A
Yeah. I mean, we can see the story of David and Goliath, of course, is a big 1 in 1 Samuel 17, where David's readiness to be faithful to God and to oppose a conquering army. And not just people who are being aggressive toward the army of Israel, but people who are slighting and making fun of the Lord God. And he says, I'm not gonna let this happen. And so he goes up with the stones and he says, the Lord will win the battle. And there he goes. Right.
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B
I love that faith. So bold.
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A
Yeah. Right. But then also he keeps. So he gets brought into the service of King Saul, who's the first king over Israel. And Saul is a little nutty. He's temperamental. Right. And he's jealous of David, even though he wants David around and lets David marry his daughter. And, you know, at one point, he Throws a spear at him and it sticks in the wall and David barely escapes it. But David also stays with him and he plays the harp to calm Saul down. Right. David after this, Saul starts chasing after him and David goes on the run. And he has a kind of Robin Hood period where it says everybody who was in debt and everybody who was kind of downtrodden or an outsider. Right. Joined up with David and they were like off through the countryside. And at one point he fights for the other army and he does all kinds of different things. It's just interesting sort of adventure, period. But he has two opportunities to go where he sees Saul and he's got the drop on him and he goes, oh. And his friends are like, hey, just kill him now we can stop running. And he says, no, he's still the Lord's anointed, even though he's a jerk. Right. I'm not going to take my. He says, if God kills him and he falls in battle, right, that's fine, but I'm not going to go sneak up on him and kill him just because it'll make it easier on myself. He's still God's anointed. And we can think about that with all. All kinds of other leaders whose office we need to respect, but who are. Who are not great.
- [14:48]
B
Right.
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A
That. That doesn't justify us creating some sort of. Yeah. Some sort of, you know, vigilante campaign against them or whatever, you know, and those are marks of big character for David. David cares for and honors widows and people who come to him for judgments. David cares for and honors Abigail, whose husband makes things rough for her in his own treatment of David and his foolishness. David's got lot. He's got lots of dirt underneath his fingernails, but he's oftentimes trying to do good things with his hands, with dirty hands.
- [15:41]
B
And can you remind me, too, the story of when David was first highlighted? Wasn't he in a field or he. That story.
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A
Yeah. And this is one of the. There's so many ways in which David is referenced as a pre. Figurement or an antecedent of Jesus. I mean, he's an ancestor. Right. But he's the first king. He's the king over all 12 tribes, even though there's a civil war for a short time. David.
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B
That's right. The lineage.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Of Jesus.
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A
Yes. The lineage is big. Right. God, there's a. In Psalm 110, right. David is the one who sees two lords talking to each other in heaven. And the Lord says to his Lord, I will give You're a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek, right? And so that's going to be Jesus's priesthood, which is associated with being the Davidic king, right? But when he's first highlighted, also David's a shepherd, right? And for all of the Old Testament, the shepherd is the ideal, the image of the ideal king, right? When they ask David, well, like, you're not a war. When Saul says, well, he's not a warrior. He doesn't even fit my armor. Like, why would I let him go up against Goliath? He says, hey, I'm a shepherd. And I used to pretend protect my sheep from wolves and bears, Right? Right. David's brothers, when God sends the prophet out to go anoint him, he says, go anoint somebody from the house of Jesse and Samuel. The prophet is standing there going, all right, well surely this one big tall guy comes by and God's like, not him. Okay, there's the next one, another big one, right? Good looking and he's like, him. No, God's like, no, not him. Him. I see the heart and not what man sees. And he goes through all the sons and he looks at Jesse and he goes, don't you have any more sons? Right? And Jesse says, well, yeah, one, but I didn't even bring him in to see who the next king would be. He's out in the fields with the sheep and Samuel's like, bring him in. And God says that one because. Because he's a shepherd and he cares for the sheep, right? And that's supposed to to be. He's not supposed to take advantage of them. He's not supposed to be an oppressive ruler or domineering. He's supposed to be as king, he's supposed to be a shepherd. And Jesus our true king, right? Is the good shepherd, better than David ever was.
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B
Even another good pre figurement.
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A
Yeah.
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B
What a rich story. A rich life of David. Was there anything else? This is a rich reflection about St. David. Any other recommendations of where we can look to learn more about his life or how to apply his story to our own?
- [18:23]
A
Yeah. So where to look? Open up First Samuel and start reading there and just keep going until he dies. He doesn't come into the story right away, but everything at the beginning of First Samuel is important. But if you start with at least 1 Samuel 16:16, you'll be in a good spot. And then everybody's always encouraged to read. And not just read, but pray the Psalms, right? And make the words of the people of God in the old Testament, whether they're written by David or Asaph or other people, to make those words your own, because in Christ they are. And let those words shape how we praise God. Because we live in a culture that doesn't have a good vocabulary of praise and thanksgiving. We don't like to receive it because we feel like. We feel weird about it. We don't like people telling us, you're amazing, you're so wonderful. You're awesome in power, great in beauty. We're like, ugh, you wouldn't go out with that guy again. Right? Like, most of us wouldn't. But we. We. We don't like to receive it. And therefore, also, we. We don't usually give it. And so we don't really have good words to actually just, like, talk about the grandeur of someone.
- [19:42]
B
That's a really good point.
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A
But the Psalms are good at it. And borrow the language from the Psalms and learn how to praise God.
- [19:48]
B
Well, yeah, that is a great. A great point. And what did you mean by those Psalms? Become our own. Those. Sorry, the words become our own in Jesus.
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A
Yeah. Well, so Jesus, every psalm that's about a righteous sufferer is ultimately most perfectly about Jesus. But if you're in him and you suffer for what's righteous in a small way or a big way, those words are yours, too, because he is the bridge between us and ancient Israel. The words in the Psalms that complain and ask God, how long why are his on the cross as he quotes the psalm and says, why have you forsaken. Forsaken me? And because you're in him, those words can be yours too. Right. And you can say them in a way that isn't petulant or truly fearful. Right. But you can say them in a way that's faithful because you're joining your words to those of the. The great shepherd and the great righteous King, Jesus.
- [20:45]
B
Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you. Well, thank you, Dr. Prothro, for this reflection about the life of St. David, and thank you all for listening.