St. Francis de Sales on Obedience (Part I)

Summary

Catholic Saints Podcast

Episode: St. Francis de Sales on Obedience (Part I)

Host: Ben Akers (B)
Guest: Dr. Christopher Bloom (A)
Date: January 24, 2026

---

Main Theme

This episode inaugurates a four-part series exploring "The Character of a Christian" through the lens of St. Francis de Sales’ writings. The focus is on the virtue of obedience as presented in Introduction to the Devout Life, investigating its vital place in authentic Christian living. Dr. Christopher Bloom, translator and scholar, joins Ben Akers for a detailed discussion that blends historical context, practical application, and personal reflection.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was St. Francis de Sales? ([00:21]–[02:15])

• Background:
  • Born in 1567, died in 1622, lived during the Catholic Counter-Reformation.
  • Felt called to priesthood from age 10, initially studied law at his father’s wish.
  • Served as a missionary in a Calvinist area and later became a bishop.
  • Renowned for deep spirituality and tireless pastoral work.
• Quote:
  • “Desales became a priest. He was a missionary for about four years in a Calvinist area not too far from his hometown of Geneva. And then at a very young age was a bishop and served with great distinction...” (A, [01:49])

2. The Origins of ‘Introduction to the Devout Life’ ([02:15]–[04:43])

• Written as spiritual guidance for his distant cousin, isolated and unhappy after her marriage.
• Composed as a series of intimate letters, later shared and published as a book.
• Immediate and lasting success across Europe; "never been out of print."
• Quote:
  • “It retains the tone of this personal, heart to heart address to this correspondent.” (A, [04:13])

3. Addressed to ‘Philothea’ – Meaning and Reason ([04:57]–[05:23])

• Not his cousin’s real name; "Philothea" means "friend of God" (feminine).
• Intended to universalize the message for all souls striving towards God.
• Quote:
  • “Friend of God, okay. In the feminine. Right, sure, yeah.” (A, [05:08])

4. The Book’s Unique Approach ([05:33]–[08:43])

• St. Francis de Sales intended to offer more than a ‘self-help’ guide, prevalent in Renaissance culture.
• Contrasted his approach with contemporary secular works by Montaigne and Castiglione, which emphasized self-examination.
• Key Difference:
  • De Sales’ focus is not on looking at oneself but on looking at Jesus.
• Quote:
  • “What De Sales is doing here ... is he saying, no, you don’t need to look at yourself, you need to look at Jesus.” (A, [08:33])

5. Devotion as a Virtue Distinct from Charity ([09:54]–[11:23])

• Definition:
  • Devotion is a “more or less permanent disposition of the soul” – a character trait.
  • It is a minor virtue connected to, but distinct from, charity (“a flame leaping forth from the fire that is charity”).
• Quote:
  • “It’s like a flame leaping forth from the fire that is charity.” (A, [11:01])

6. Nature of Obedience and Devotion ([11:23]–[14:49])

• Obedience isn’t mere rule-following or box-ticking; it’s loving responsiveness.
• True obedience, as De Sales sees it, is akin to the eagerness to do the will of a beloved—exemplified in family life.
• Memorable Analogy:
  • Dr. Bloom compares obedience to loving responsiveness within marriage, noting that love makes one ready and willing to act for another.
• Quote:
  • “It’s a kind of habitual readiness to hear what God’s pleasure is and to do it.” (A, [14:49])

7. The Examination of Conscience – End and Beginning ([14:49]–[16:58])

• St. Francis includes a searching examination of conscience at the end, but it is relevant at the start of the journey too.
• Asks probing questions about our “loves and desires,” culminating in:
  • “What have I given up for love of Jesus?” (B, [16:21])
• Quote:
  • “That last question just stands out. What have I given up for love of Jesus?” (B, [16:21])
  • “That is the test.” (A, [16:31])

8. Practical Advice for Readers ([16:58]–[17:58])

• The book sets a “high bar,” with the expectation of daily contemplative prayer and dedicated reflection.
• Readers shouldn’t be discouraged by the challenge; begin where you are and grow from there.
• Quote:
  • “Be not afraid.” (A, [16:58])

9. Approaching the Devout Life Today ([18:00]–[18:36])

• Read the text slowly and prayerfully; don’t rush.
• The path to virtue is continuous—a journey, not a checklist.
• Quote:
  • “If you decide to take up this challenge and listen to St. Francis de Sales, ... just read through the text slowly. ... You can do it.” (B, [18:01])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |------------|---------|-------| | [01:49] | A | “Desales became a priest ... served with great distinction as a bishop for the last 20 years of his life.” | | [04:13] | A | “It retains the tone of this personal, heart to heart address to this correspondent.” | | [08:33] | A | “No, you don’t need to look at yourself, you need to look at Jesus.” | | [11:01] | A | “It’s like a flame leaping forth from the fire that is charity.” | | [11:54] | A | “So one of the distinctions he makes here is that if we love God, we’re going to keep his commandments, as Jesus tells us. ... But if we’re devout, then we also want to do whatever he counsels us interiorly.” | | [14:49] | A | “It’s a kind of habitual readiness to hear what God’s pleasure is and to do it.” | | [16:21] | B | “That last question just stands out. What have I given up for love of Jesus?” | | [16:31] | A | “That is the test.” | | [16:58] | A | “Be not afraid.” | | [18:01] | B | “If you decide to take up this challenge and listen to St. Francis de Sales ... just read through the text slowly. ... You can do it.” |

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• St. Francis de Sales’ Life & Background: [00:21]–[02:15]
• Origins/Publication of Introduction to the Devout Life: [02:15]–[04:43]
• Philothea & Audience for His Writings: [04:57]–[05:23]
• Positioning Among Renaissance Literature: [05:33]–[08:43]
• Virtue of Devotion: [09:54]–[11:23]
• Obedience Explained: [11:54]–[14:49]
• Examination of Conscience: [14:49]–[16:58]
• Advice for Starting the Devout Life: [16:58]–[18:36]

---

Conclusion

This episode offers a rich, accessible introduction to St. Francis de Sales’ profound insights on obedience and devotion. It situates his teaching in its historical context, breaks down the meaning of virtue in daily Christian life, and provides practical wisdom for anyone beginning or continuing their journey of faith. With memorable quotes, vivid analogies, and clear encouragement, listeners are invited to “be not afraid,” start where they are, and allow St. Francis de Sales to guide them in cultivating a character oriented toward Christ above all else.

Next episode: Focuses on the virtue of attentiveness.

---

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to a podcast on Catholic Saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustine Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live and share their faith.

[B]

Hello and welcome to our four part series on St. Francis de Sales and the character of a Christian. My name is Ben Akers. I'm the executive director of formed. And joining me today in this conversation is Dr. Christopher Bloom, who is the academic dean at the Augustine Institute Graduate School of Theology, as well as being a translator of two works of St. Francis Desales and the Host of True Reformers, which you can find on form, where one of the key episodes is on St. Francis desales. St. Francis de Sales is a great spiritual master of the spiritual life. And our conversation is. We talk about four characteristics, four essential traits of a Christian that we find in his work. Christian should be obedient, should be attentive, should be sincere, and should be brave. Before we dive into that, tell me a little bit about St. Francis de Sales.

[A]

Yeah, he said, just a spectacular saying. 1567-1622. Ben, in the Counter Reformation periods, you know, felt the stirring in his soul for holy priesthood, really from a very young age, somewhere around the age of 10, something like that, kept that sort of between himself and God for quite some time. When he was a student, he would study, study theology outside of his. His regular coursework. And then when he came home from his law degree in northern Italy, he told his father, the Lord wants me to be a priest. And his father was kind of shocked because he was the eldest son of a noble family and was going to be a senator of the region and so on. But seeing his son's determination, gave his consent. DeSales became a priest. He was a missionary for about four years in a Calvinist area not too far from his hometown of Geneva. And then at a very young age was a bishop and served with great distinction as a bishop for the last 20 years of his life.

[B]

One of the things that I remember receiving this actual copy right here of this Introduction to the Devout Life was 25 years ago and I was first introduced to the introduction to Devout Life. And this is called a spiritual classic. When you look at all the books that we can read written by saints and doctors of the church, this one stands among others. What's the occasion of him writing this work? Mm.

[A]

So he was, he. He had a life in the southern part of France there, not too far from Geneva that maybe isn't too dissimilar to our quarantine existence. Over this past year, he, he was accustomed to being in A larger world, bigger cities and so forth. And so, so were some of the people around him. But he found himself in a situation where he had to do spiritual direction by correspondence. And one of his correspondents was a young woman, a distant cousin of his who had married a local nobleman. Had to leave behind her sort of full and vibrant life in Paris and in Normandy and come down to a place where all she could hear was cowbells. And frankly, it was very depressing for her. So she struck up an epistolary relationship with this older, wise cousin of, of hers. And de Sales realized he had, he had to do with someone who really could handle, was. Was ready for very sophisticated instruction. So he wrote a series of letters to her that really became this book. She then innocently showed it to the priest who was physically close at hand, you know, a mile away or something, and he said, this is amazing. This must be published for the good of souls. And that was the birth of the book.

[B]

Was it an instant success? How was it received?

[A]

Absolutely, yeah. No, it was a tremendous success. Right out the gate. One of the most well read books in the French language in the 17th century and ever since shows up in every major European language within 100 years. Never been out of print. So it really struck people. And of course what's beautiful about it is that it retains the tone of this personal, heart to heart address to this correspondent. There's even a couple places in the book where you can tell if you're reading carefully that Desales, as the editor of his own letters, forgot to take a couple things out, you know.

[B]

Does any example come to mind?

[A]

Yeah, there's something that's, there's a little bit of advice buried in the. Right, in the middle of the book, which is evidently addressed to a young woman. And you just sort of say, oh, whoops, he forgot to universalize that one, you know.

[B]

Right. Well, when I read this and I see the, the letters are addressed to Philothea. Was that the cousin's name?

[A]

Oh, no, no, no. She had Jen or Marie or something like this.

[B]

So what does it, what does that mean, Philothea, when I'm reading that?

[A]

Yeah. Friend of God.

[B]

Friend of God, okay.

[A]

In the feminine. Right, sure, yeah.

[B]

So he's referring not only to a real person that he's writing to and giving a spiritual action, but he's, as you mentioned, trying to universalize these, these truths. And oftentimes sometimes spiritual writers will put the soul in the feminine.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Kind of be receptive to God's grace.

[A]

Yes. Both in Latin and in French, it's already in feminine. Feminine. So you're kind of stuck there linguistically, sure. But. Yeah, that's right.

[B]

When he's writing and he's reading, he's writing this, this work and he's considering this person that's in front of him. Do you think he knew that this was going to be a significant work besides the cousin receiving it and then the, you know, hearing from this, the, the local priest. Do you think when he sat pen to paper that he was, you know, wanting to make a spiritual treatise?

[A]

Yeah, that's a great, that's a great question. I've never actually tried to answer that. I mean, of course there's no, there's no evidence to work with in that, in that regard. He, he was a tremendously humble man with a humility that manifested itself in an extraordinary dutifulness. So, you know, saccharine of the present moment kind of thing. Whatever he needed to do, he dropped everything and did it. Type thing. And so he's a bishop when he's writing these letters. And this is a man who's sleeping four hours a night. Uh, so he's doing this around the edges of a day that's got 20 hours of work and prayer in it. It's an, it's an amazing thing. Um, but let, let me, let me hazard an affirmative answer to your question.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

This is, this is a reading man. He's aware that in the, in the 16th century. So he. This is about 1607, 1608, when he's writing these letters, he's aware that over the previous 75 years or so, there have been various attempts to frame what we might call, for lack of a better word, Christian self help books. Okay. It's the Renaissance. It's a time when people are leaving behind a kind of medieval life of the nobility constantly being at war. There's a question, okay, so I'm a noble man or a noble woman. Just what kind of life am I supposed to be living? How do I live a life that is responsible now that I no longer have to strap a sword on? You know, and so there are these books, and Desales is responding to two of the most significant of those books with the introduction about life. The one, the French, is Michel de Montaigne's essays. And the other, an Italian book, was called the Courtier by Castiglione.

[B]

Is he, he's writing against them. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. And in the reading that we've got in front of us for today, I chose because it shows us what the first principle is exactly how this book is different from these other self help or what you might call Renaissance self fashioning books. Right. In the Renaissance period, it was common for the wealthy to make kind of an art of their life. And what it turns into in the case of Castiglione especially, but certainly also Montaigne, is a lot of looking in the mirror. You know, there's a kind of unhealthy self examination in there. Am I quite, you know, here's how I'd like to be. Am I quite there? You know, and what De Sales is doing here at the devout. In the. Right out the gate with the devout Life. And then as we see at the end in the examination of conscience, is he saying, no, you don't need to look at yourself, you need to look at Jesus.

[B]

That's always good advice. So it's interesting that there's nothing new under the sun, that even in the Renaissance they have the Barnes and Noble self help section. And then what we need is not to root our spirituality in ourselves, but to orient it to Christ and Christ crucified. If you're following along, if you're watching this on TV or watching this on computer, there is a nine page handout that Dr. Bloom has translated for us from the original French. The introduction to Devout Life and the virtue that we want to talk about in this particular episode after that, Introduction to who Saint Francis de Sales is. And the little brief history of this work is obedience or devotion is the first kind of virtue we want to highlight. And so if you'd like to follow along, that's a PDF that you can read. Introduction to Devout Life is also an ebook on Formed, if you'd like to download the whole work. But this is a little teaser for you to dive deeply into the text. He calls the work Introduction to the Devout Life. He says devotion, as we in the text, it's a virtue. What does he mean by devotion being a virtue? And how does that differ from, say, the love of God, the love of neighbor that we find in charity?

[A]

Yeah, so he wants to say it's a virtue because it's a more or less permanent disposition of the soul. Right. So what we're talking about here, as we intend to do here over the next three episodes too, Right. Is a question of our character, who we are when no one's looking. Right. Who we are in front of our guardian angel and the Lord. And that's it.

[B]

Right in front of the mirror by ourselves. Yeah, right.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And you know, what's stamped on our soul.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that's why we're using the language of virtue here. And as you know, Desales is following Aquinas. Aquinas is a very ornate architecture of the virtues. Lots of different qualities of soul, some major, some minor. And it's true. Devotion as the name of a quality of the soul is going to be a minor virtue. It's going to be a kind of. Well, as Desales says. Right. It's like a flame leaping forth from the fire that is charity.

[B]

I did. I like that in the text when I read that. And one of the things that jumped out was that he's so full of these vivid images from nature, along with the scriptural images that he brings out. So you have to be really steeped in the scriptural language to understand some of this.

[A]

Oh, it's true. It's true. Yeah. So this.

[B]

So fire to flame is the image that he uses for devotion to charity.

[A]

That's the image. And of course, the explanation is that love is a question of where, as it were, the object of our. Of our desire. And then what devotion is going to add to the love of God is a kind of care or diligence or promptness or swiftness to respond. These are some of the words that he uses.

[B]

Apton. Ready. Jumped out at me. Yes, the soul is apt and ready to do.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. So one of the distinctions he makes here is that if we love God, we're going to keep his commandments, as Jesus tells us. John 15. Right. Very famous passage. But if we're devout, then we also want to do whatever he counsels us interiorly. We're going to be listening for those interior inspirations and sort of living our life by the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

[B]

So it's not just charity is not living the life of the Christian life is not just checking boxes, not just being obedient. There's something more is what he means by this devoutness.

[A]

He does. He does, yeah. And I think the word obedience here is one that's really worth wrestling with for us. Right.

[B]

Because it just means checking, just keeping the rules. Right?

[A]

Yeah, that's what it sounds like.

[B]

Do what you're told.

[A]

Yeah. Come on, are you going to obey or not? You're going to pay your taxes, you know, you're going to show up to Mass on time, you know. But for. For Desales, and at a certain point here, he does use the word obedience or obey. The verb obey, he also uses fulfill at a certain point with respect to God's wishes, right? And the notion here is it's kind of akin to the way in which we receive a request or a command even from somebody we love really dearly and. And a. For whose good we. We are especially, you know, devoted or something like this, right? So, I mean, I naturally think of my wife right now. I don't want. I don't want to hold myself up as some kind of perfect husband, right? I mean, it's not. It's not the case that every time my wife asked me to take the dog out, I jump off the couch, you know, oh, I can't wait to take the dog out, you know, by no means. Nevertheless, my, My. My goal in life, right, Is. Is in. In some. As far as marriage is concerned, right, Is in some sense to. To do whatever my wife needs me to do, right? And. And if I were ever asked the question, you know, what.

[B]

Where.

[A]

Where in the ranking of things in your life stand your. Your wife's desires and question, you know, her, you know, she asked me, can we do such and such as a family or can we do such and such for our daughter or something like this? The answer is that's at the top of the list, you know, temporally speaking, right? I mean, obviously she doesn't ask me to do things that God would not approve of. But. And that. And this, this, I think, is a way in to what DeSales thinks the virtue of devotion is, right? It's a kind of habitual readiness to hear what God's pleasure is and to do it.

[B]

That's beautiful and difficult when you start to sit still and listen and examine yourself. And that's one of the things that really struck me when I was reading this section that you gave us from the introduction to the Devout Life is he has an examination of conscience. So even there's just a page one start, starting this journey of growing in virtue as a Christian disciple of Christ. He says, pause and put yourself in the presence of the Lord and examine yourself. Is this. Is this just good spiritual practice? Is this common?

[A]

Well, it is, I mean, actually that I tricked you because that examination is right from the end of the book. And I put it together.

[B]

The end is in the beginning.

[A]

The end is in. Well, and because. Because in fact, the end is in the beginning here, right? I mean that one of the difficult things about the introduction of devout life is that he actually assumes that you want to be devout, right? So there is zero on ramp in this book, okay?

[B]

If you have this book in your.

[A]

Hand, you better be ready. Yeah, yeah. You, if you want to actually read it, you better. You better be ready. So it's not, it's not strange to look at this examination of conscience together at the beginning because it's. It is what he has in mind. Right. I mean, this is a very beautifully spare examination of conscience. Every question is really a question about our loves, about our desire. Right. And it comes to a kind of crescendo in that seventh question about, about Jesus. You know, what, what do we think about Jesus? Do we think about Jesus, you know, or do. Do we love him more than we love. Fill in the blank, right. You know, Cheerios or something. I don't know.

[B]

That last question just stands out. What have I given up for love of Jesus?

[A]

Right, Exactly.

[B]

It kind of just hangs there. What have I given up for love of Jesus?

[A]

That's the test.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That is the test. Yeah.

[B]

What would you. In just a short amount of time that we have remaining from reading this for the first time. So it makes sense to me that the examination is at the end of the book and now we put it at the beginning in our reading to this conversation. Because you want to reread this, you know, one, you know, it's not just, I read the chapter, check, I'm done. Next. I grew in virtue on this. And then I'm going to move on to the next virtue. How would you advise someone who's reading and encountering this text for the first.

[A]

Time be not afraid? I think, yeah, I've heard from a lot of people that they start the instruction devout life and find the ascent pretty steep. I mean, you don't have to read very many pages before he tells you that an hour of mental prayer or contemplative prayer every day is the starting point.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Right. Now that's a very high bar. Right. And I think what we can say without. Without being so bold as to just disagree with a saint, Right. I think what we can say is he's assuming a life of leisure here. He's assuming a life in which people have domestic servants, for instance. Okay. So we can make some allowances here. I mean, if we're just starting on this journey, we might say, okay, well, I'm going to devote the first half hour of my life to the Lord. And I'm going to hope that that involves as much mental prayer as I can squeeze in there, you know, or whatever it might be. We get. We get started as we can.

[B]

So the best thing to do is to start.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And to listen. Yes. And to just be with the text. And so if you, if you decide to take up this challenge and listen to St. Francis de Sales, to sit at the feet of a spiritual master, a man who's fully converted to Jesus Christ and as a pastor of souls and wants you too, to know Jesus as he knows him, I want you to just read through the text slowly. It's only nine pages. You can, you can handle it. You can do it. Today we're talking about the, one of the key characteristics of a Christian, which is obedience. Next session we're going to be talking about attentiveness. Thank you for joining us and God bless.

[A]

You can watch these interviews in video format by visiting form.org formed is an online Catholic streaming service created by the Augustine Institute and Ignatius Press with award winning studies and parish programs, inspiring audio content, movies, ebooks and family friendly kids programming to support the mission of the Augustine institute. Please visit missioncircle.org.