Podcast Summary: Catholic Saints — St. Francis of Assisi
Host: Tim Gray (President, Augustine Institute)
Guest: Paul McCusker (Creative Director & Author)
Date: October 4, 2025
Episode Theme: Exploring the life, humanity, and radical conversion of St. Francis of Assisi, as well as the enduring impact of his story as told through the acclaimed Brother Francis audio drama.

Overview

This episode delves into the life of St. Francis of Assisi—examining the conflicts, transformation, and recklessly faithful spirit that made him perhaps the most beloved, yet often misunderstood, Catholic saint. Using insights from the award-winning "Brother Francis" audio drama, the hosts highlight not only the drama and unique storytelling approach of the project, but also how Francis’ radical discipleship and authentic humanity still challenge, inspire, and convert people today.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

St. Francis as a Dramatized Figure

• Unique Narrative Approach: Paul McCusker describes beginning each chapter of the audio drama through the eyes of those close to Francis, revealing how differently he was perceived (02:20–03:43).

  • Quote [02:58]: “Everybody has different impressions of him, and everybody in his life is seeing him differently because of who he was.” — Paul McCusker

• Inner and Outer Conflicts: The drama in Francis’ life stemmed not only from his inner spiritual battles but from real conflicts with family, culture, and society.

  • Quote [02:58]: “It was a man in conflict with his own family, with his culture. I mean, he was just in conflict all the way around, even with himself.” — Paul McCusker

The Pivotal Conflict with His Father

• Dramatic Renunciation: They describe the famous scene (captured by Giotto and dramatized in audio) where Francis renounces his inheritance, offering up not only his wealth, but in a sense, his father, echoing Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac (05:15–07:06).

  • Quote [05:15]: “To me, it’s such an incredible reversal because Francis isn’t offering up his son, he’s got to offer up his father.” — Tim Gray

• Stubbornness Redeemed: Paul notes that Francis’ stubborn nature—seen in his feud with his father—was integral to both his pre- and post-conversion identity.

  • Quote [04:08]: “He was very much his father's son in his stubbornness, that once he got the idea and once he grabbed onto it ... it redirected. He became just as stubborn and tenacious about the faith as he was before.” — Paul McCusker

• Total Renunciation: Francis' attitude toward wealth is discussed: for him, even a single coin was a temptation as great as a bag of gold—what couldn't be redeemed must be eliminated (07:06–09:21).

  • Quote [07:06]: “For him, in his mind, whatever couldn't be redeemed had to be eliminated.” — Paul McCusker

Friendship, Music, and Redeemed Joy

• Redeeming Personality Traits: Pre-conversion, Francis loved music and friendship; after conversion, he kept singing, now to God, and remained at the center of deep friendships, redeeming these gifts for Christ (09:21–12:38).

  • Quote [09:21]: “He loved to sing…after his conversion…he continued to sing, but now he sang to the glory of God.” — Paul McCusker

• Gift for Authentic Community: Francis’ capacity for deep, vulnerable friendship drew others—including his first followers and St. Clare—into his radical way of living the Gospel.

War, Suffering, and the Birth of Peace

• Wartime Trauma and Transformation: Both hosts explore how Francis’ years as a soldier and war prisoner (suffering what today might be PTSD) changed his life’s course (12:38–14:00).

  • Quote [12:52]: “For a year he was held…that was the key thing…when he came back from that, it set him on a whole other course.” — Paul McCusker

• Peacemaker Not by Sentiment, but Sacrifice: Francis became deeply committed to true, sacrificial peace, rooted in Christ (14:00–16:33).

  • Quote [14:42]: “It is actually a very real divine peace that only comes through Christ. The peace that passes all understanding…and that's again part of the renouncing.” — Paul McCusker

Struggles with Structure: Obedience vs Program

• Reluctance to Institutionalize: Francis resisted laying out rigid rules for the order, fearing to “lock down” what should remain dynamic and lived (16:33–17:02).

  • Quote [14:42]: “Francis in many ways didn’t think in a program way. He thought in the dynamic human interaction with Christ way.” — Paul McCusker

• Holiness as Relationship, Not Issue-Centric: He led through obedience and relationship with Christ, allowing “issues” to resolve themselves through lived faith (16:34–17:02).

The Real Francis vs the Legend

• Shattering Stereotypes: The audio drama aims to present the authentic Francis: not a gentle “hippie,” but a man of deep faith, radical humanity, and formidable challenge to those around him (17:02–17:51).

  • Quote [17:02]: “You don’t know the true Francis…this story blows that open…the authentic story is so much more powerful than just simply the tradition or legend...” — Tim Gray

• Living as Jesus Did—Literally: Francis’ faith meant reckless trust—taking Jesus’ commands at face value and living them out without reservation, a challenge for all listeners (17:51–20:47).

  • Quote [17:51]: “He just went, well, that's what Jesus said to do. So I'll just do it. That was the reckless side of it. And I sometimes wonder what my own spiritual life would be like if I just got reckless.” — Paul McCusker

Francis’ Impact: Stories Changing Lives

• Transforming Cast and Crew: Even non-Christian actors were moved by Francis’ story while recording the audio drama; his life challenges and changes people on a personal level (20:47–22:39).

• Modern Conversion Stories: One of the studio engineers converted to Catholicism after working on the project—a testament to narrative’s power to evangelize (22:39–24:05).

  • Quote [22:39]: “And when we were coming home, he said, now, you do understand that when I left Colorado Springs, I was a Protestant, but I'm coming back a Catholic now. I just have to do it for real.” — Paul McCusker

The Enduring Legacy and Evangelistic Power of Stories

• Stories as Evangelization: Tim Gray relates how saints’ stories changed St. Ignatius’ life and how the podcast seeks to inspire a new generation (24:05–25:40).
  • Quote [24:05]: “That's the power of story…as Ignatius read the stories of the saints, we hope today, in the 21st century, in the new evangelization, will people hear the story in the lives of the saints through these audio dramas...” — Tim Gray

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “[Francis’] humanity is what comes out. And I don’t mean humanity as in let’s just highlight flaws. It is their humanity and the fullness of humanity and their response to Christ and that recklessness…” — Paul McCusker [20:47]
• “You're going to actually try to live this, like the Beatitudes, he thought, you know, we actually can live that.” — Tim Gray [22:05]

Key Timestamps

• 01:30–03:43: Structuring the audio drama through secondary characters, drama in Francis’ life
• 05:15–07:06: Renunciation scene and Giotto’s artistic vision
• 09:21–12:38: Redeeming friendship and music; Francis’ charisma
• 12:38–14:00: Francis as war prisoner—pivotal change
• 14:00–16:33: Francis’ vision of peace and his “order”
• 17:02–20:47: True Francis vs. legend, reckless faith
• 22:39–24:05: Audio engineer’s conversion story
• 24:05–25:40: Saints’ stories as tools of evangelization

Conclusion

This episode paints a strikingly human and challenging portrait of St. Francis of Assisi: a man who was not only radically conformed to Christ, but whose story—boldly told and honestly dramatized—continues to confront, convert, and inspire. Listeners are encouraged to embrace “reckless” faith, to let go of what cannot be redeemed, and to discover, through Francis, the call to live the Gospel as something dangerously alive.

For more, listeners are invited to explore the full Brother Francis audio drama available on Formed.org.