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St. Gregory of Nazianzus
00:18:24
Dr. Chris Mooney shares about St. Gregory of Nazianzus, a 4th-century saint who served as the Bishop of Constantinople during the second ecumenical council in 381. Tradition has assigned him the title The Theologian, as he lived, wrote, and preached during the golden age of patristic theology.
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- [00:05]
A
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Catholic Saints. I'm Taylor Kemp, the director of Formed, and with me today is Dr. Christopher Mooney.
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B
Thanks for having me, Taylor.
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A
I almost hazarded your middle name there, and I decided not to. Dr. Mooney, it is great to have you. You're a professor here at the graduate school, and today we are talking about St. Gregory Nazianzus. So where should we begin to learn about this saint?
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B
Well, maybe I can say a little bit about his biography. I think Gregory's life is. Is a nice sort of prelude to get to know him. So Gregory lived during the 4th century in the east, in a period that's often thought of as the golden age of patristic theology, the theology of the Father. So he died around 390, was born around 330. His father before him was a bishop. Now, that sounds weird to us today, but, you know, clerical and episcopal celibacy wasn't as established then.
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A
You didn't point that out.
- [00:57]
B
Yeah, but his father was actually converted by his mother, and then his father became bishop. And Gregory's called Gregory of Nazianzus because their family estate was near Nazianzus, which is a small town in modern day Turkey called Cappadocia.
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A
Is he one of the Cappadocians?
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B
He's one of the Cappadocians, that's right, yeah. Along with Basil of Caesarea and Gregory of Nyssa. So Gregory, you know, grew up in a Christian family. His father was the bishop, and like a lot of, you know, well to do Romans at the time, his father had, his family had ambitious plans of education for him. He went to all the greatest cities in the eastern part of the empire to study. Though it was on his way to Athens that he had a major conversion during a storm. He prayed that he would dedicate his entire life to Christ. And Athens is really where he had, you know, the highlight of his education in philosophy and in rhetoric, which would have been the two sort of most important arts. He was actually classmates with one of the other Cappadocians, Basil, and with a man who would later become the Roman emperor, Julian, also known as Julian the Apostate.
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A
Yes.
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B
So interesting to know that Julian and Gregory were classmates in a way, in Athens. Can I ask a quick question?
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A
So you said he had his conversion during the storm, but you said he was brought up Christian. Did he not? Like, kind of where he needed, like that more personal, a kind of full.
- [02:29]
B
Commitment of his own? Yeah, I think we see this reflected in the fact that when Gregory comes back home, he starts to live a semi monastic life. You know, he spends time with his dear friend Basil, and they are living a kind of quasi monastic life together. They're reading the works of some of the fathers before them and compiling them. So they're living a kind of contemplative, prayerful, philosophical and religious life. But then, contrary to what he wanted, his father ordains him. And actually, at first, Gregory flees after he's ordained. Interesting. And he's kind of afraid and resentful at having been ordained. But he comes back quickly after that. And then eventually he becomes a bishop on his own and he's made bishop of a small Podunk town, though that doesn't last for long because he eventually becomes the bishop of Constantinople, one of the most important cities in the empire at the time. He's actually bishop during the third. Sorry, excuse me, the second ecumenical council, the Council of Constantinople, in 381. Though Gregory personally makes it very clear that he hated the council. He had a miserable time and hated all of the politics. So he actually resigns as bishop of Constantinople and moves back to Nazianzus, where he spends the rest of his life and dies in 390.
- [03:59]
A
Wow. I was just thinking about that second conversion that you were talking about. It reminds me a lot of. There's a lot of spiritual writers that talk about the multiple stages of conversions, where you have Peter and the apostles who are called by Christ and they drop their nets and they follow him. But then there's still those other levels of full commitment, whether that's Peter has to confront his sins and recommit his love to the Lord and then Pentecost. So it kind of reminded me of that. And I found it particularly pertinent, probably for parents who are bringing kids up in the faith. And at some point, you're looking for that moment for your kids to, like, really say, like, yep, I'm gonna give my life personally to Christ.
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B
There is a bit of bad news, though, when it comes to Gregory's biography, which is a lot of scholars who spend a lot of time with Gregory, you know, historians and such, they don't like him all that much.
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A
How come?
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B
Well, Gregory sometimes comes across as a little, like, he wasn't the easiest to go along with. Kind of held some grudges. If I can share a quote.
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A
The saints are prickly.
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B
Some of the saints are prickly, actually is good news. Exactly. So this is from a writer, Lionel Wickham. In this introduction to this volume, he says, indeed, of all the great patristic writers, Latin and Greek. Gregory is second only to Augustine of Hippo in the degree of self revelation. He permits himself. Gregory wrote these autobiographical poems. He is second only to Augustine of Hippo in the degree of self revelation. He permits himself, if less often to his advantage. For if I could wish to have known Augustine even better, I feel I know Gregory enough.
- [05:36]
A
That is a very deadline.
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B
That is a good line. So Gregory, someone also called him a hothouse flower. Sometimes he held these grudges. There are instances where he preaches against people that he didn't quite like. So that's the bad news. But it is maybe good news, as you mentioned, because it shows that psychology is not an impediment to sanctity. So just because Gregory had this disposition. But I want to say that if that's on the one hand, there's good news on the other hand, which is if that's maybe how some scholars look at him. And maybe, you know, if you ever hear someone talk about Gregory, they might say something like that. I guess I just did. But that's not how the Tradition knows him. The Tradition knows him in a very different way. The Tradition knows him under one simple solemn title, the Theologian. It's a good title. Yeah. And he has great company, too, because in the whole Eastern tradition, there are only three people total who get the title the theologian, I guess, 10th century. Oh, sure, go for it.
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A
You just said 10th century. All right. One, I think is in the Eastern tradition. Okay. Not the one you're saying, but I think one's Aquinas.
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B
Well, it's only the Eastern tradition.
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A
Oh, it's only the Eastern tradition. Oh, this makes it much harder. I'm going to not waste the listener's time here. And we're going to hazard a guest at. No, Albert was on the west and he was so. Okay, I'm not even going to guess.
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B
All right. These are hard ones. One's a 10th century theologian named Saint Simeon. The new Theolog.
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A
Nope, didn't know that one.
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B
Yeah, that's number two. And number one, perhaps the most august company you could have among theologians is St. John the Apostle. Oh, so the three people who are called the theologian are the Gospel writer Gregory and one other person.
- [07:16]
A
Yeah, that's a nice thing.
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B
So Gregory has this title, you know, a lot of Catholics might know of. Of course, probably, if they're listening to this, they certainly know of St. Augustine, as St. Augustine is to the West, Gregory is to the East.
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A
Yeah, that's a big.
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B
Gregory has such a profound impact on the history of Eastern theology, especially because of his writings, but maybe even more his preaching on the Trinity.
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A
I was just gonna ask, okay, what were the particular points of theology that he was known for preaching? Yeah.
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B
Gregory was known for having been such a tremendous defender of the Trinity, which.
- [07:51]
A
Is a big deal for how early he is, too, because it's not like.
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B
I brought a couple books, if that's okay. I'm not sure.
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A
Please. No. People see these, they love show and tell them just the title.
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B
Yeah. So one's called On God in Christ. The other is called Festal Orations. They're these nice little series put out by SVS Press called Popular Patristics. And these are some of his homilies. They're called Orations because Gregory took the great training he had as an orator and applied it to the art of preaching. So if I can give an example, because in my view, Gregory is. This is maybe my own personal. My own personal affection, but I think Gregory is the greatest of all patristic preachers. Wow. Augustine's a great preacher. There are many other great preachers. I think Gregory is the best.
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A
Wow.
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B
Here's just an example. He may be prickly, but he's a great prickly, but he's a great preacher. Here's an example from one of his Christmas homilies. So this is on the nativity of Christ. It's called Oration 38. He says, Christ is born. Give glory. Christ is from the heavens. Go to meet him. Christ is on earth. Be lifted up. Sing to the Lord, all the earth. And to say both together. Let the heavens be glad and let the earth rejoice, for the heavenly one is now earthly. Christ is in the flesh. Exult with trembling and joy. Trembling because of sin, joy because of hope. Christ comes from a virgin. Women practice virginity that you may become mothers of Christ. Who would not worship the one from the beginning? Who would not glorify the last? Again the darkness is dissolved. Again the light is established. Again Egypt is punished by darkness. Again Israel is illumined by a pillar. All these sorts of contrasts and ways that Gregory puts it to go on a little bit further. He says, I myself will proclaim the power of this day. Christmas, that is, the fleshless one takes flesh. The word is made coarse. The invisible one is seen. The impalpable one is touched. The timeless one makes a beginning. The Son of God becomes Son of man, Jesus Christ. The same yesterday and today and for the ages.
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A
It's good.
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B
It's good.
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A
He's got a rhetorical flair, that's for sure.
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B
He does. It's definitely. You have to kind of. You have to like the contrast you do and the rhetoric. You know, maybe it wouldn't preach every Sunday today, but pretty awesome. But if I may give one other point that Gregory says. He's commenting on Christmas, and he says, look, you know, how is it that everyone celebrates the feast of Christmas? He says, let it be for pagans to have great. To let their feasting be only focused on great banquets and festivities. He says, what is our feasting? He says, but if we, for whom the Word is an object of worship, must somehow have luxury, let us have as our luxury the Word and the divine law and narratives, especially those that form the basis of the present feast, that our luxury may be akin and not foreign to the one who has called us. Would you like me, for I am your host today, to set before you, my good guests, a discourse as abundant and lavish as possible that you may know how a stranger can feed the local inhabitants and a rustic, the city dwellers, and one without luxury, the luxurious, and one poor and homeless, those brilliant in wealth. Gregory thinks that the feast he is offering them on Christmas is his homily.
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A
Yeah.
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Because in his preaching, he will draw them to think about Christ himself.
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A
Yeah. And he's pulling from Scripture. It is really beautiful.
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B
Yeah. I think one of the things we see from Gregory, if Gregory is one of the greatest of the greatest early Christian preachers, if he took all of the skills that he had as an order, you see something similar with Augustine, who had these great skills in his secular learning and put them to the task of his Christian work. I think Gregory. We can think of Gregory as a great theologian who also thought that being a great theologian meant going hand in hand with being a great pastor and particularly I think, with being a great preacher. Gregory, as his orations demonstrate, Gregory cared about the potential that in preaching, he could give people a feast of words, a feast of ideas, a feast that's not just sort of like a game or just academics, but a feast of words meaning the words of Scripture, a feast of ideas meaning the ideas of God. And so if, you know, if we were to think what's one of the takeaways we could have from Gregory today? I think it would be we should pray to Gregory for more preachers, for people who love to preach the word. I think St. Gregory in heaven would be glad to hear these prayers. So I think of him. He's not officially, but I think him as kind of like a patron saint of preachers.
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A
No, I was thinking the Same thing. I was like, is he the patron saint? Patrons? But he should be. But as St. Paul says, faith comes through hearing. And it's just so important. I mean, you know, we're all quite fortunate here at the Augustine Institute to be able to work at a place where we get to spend much of our time connected to things like scripture. But the majority of the people out there that are watching this, you have a regular day job or you're at home, and you don't get to be spending as much time in this. And so, like, the Sunday homily is so important. Being able to share, you know, with a small group talk about Scripture, but that it's just so important to proclaim, to share the word of God. And he is a. He is a great model for that.
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B
Yeah.
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A
All right, so I'm going to challenge you. So you gave us a nice takeaway. Patron of preachers. He would be happy in heaven if we prayed to him to increase the ability for preachers to proclaim the gospel. Do you have anything. Would you. Would you Recommend. What would St. Gregory want for us in our everyday life? Would you say?
- [13:32]
B
Ooh, good question. You know, in a way, I think one dimension of that I kind of already gave. Insofar as he wants us to feed on the Word, he wants us to know he want and the Word, both in the sense of the word of God in Scripture and the Word meaning, you know, the word of God who became flesh as Christ. So maybe one other thing I could think of is Gregory also, you know, I said earlier that he lived in what's often thought of as the golden age patristic, the golden age of early Christian theology in the 4th century, the same time that the other Cappadocians lived, the same time that Augustine was born, same time as Ambrose. But, you know, so many of these pastors, they care deeply about issues of the truth. There's a famous quote where Gregory says that in Constantinople, he says something like, you know, you can't get your hair cut without the barber asking you whether the Son is consubstantial with the Father. You know, these debates, what a different.
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A
Day than we are in. That's awesome.
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B
But there were so many fights about the truth and about the correct understanding of Scripture. I think Gregory would want us to hold fast to the truth. Can I give another example of that? Oh, yeah. Okay. So one of my favorite lines from Gregory is actually not from. And I think one of Gregory's most famous lines is actually not from one of his homilies. It's from a letter he wrote. And I brought this as well. But this is a great passage. He's talking about a controversy about Jesus humanity with a guy named Apollinarius. Another bishop, a heresy, is now named after him. So maybe that gives a little hint in advance. But he says, gregory, this is the line. I won't rehash the whole thing, but this is the line that Gregory says that I think we can contemplate. He says, that which is not assumed is not healed. But what is united with God is also being saved. Had half of Adam fallen, what was assumed in his being saved would have been half too. But if the whole fell, he is united to the whole of what was born and is being saved in whole. So how do we think about the Incarnation, about the Son of God becoming man? One of the things that Gregory drives home is we recognize that part of the importance of the Incarnation is Christ took on a whole humanity. And the reason he takes on a whole humanity, you know, he doesn't just sort of walk around looking like a human being, like a sci fi projection or a hologram or something. He takes on a real and whole humanity, just like mine. And the reason is because my whole humanity needs healing. And that's what Gregory says. If he hadn't taken on a whole humanity, my whole humanity wouldn't be healed. If Adam had only half fallen, if we were only half sinners, like I'm sinful over here, but not over here. It affects my body, but not my mind, then maybe Christ would have only been half human, but he became wholly human to wholly save us. And I think maybe that comes back to another pastoral point, as you were asking, and a point of why Gregor cares about us holding fast to the faith is because we get to rejoice in and cling to and proclaim the good news that God himself took on a whole humanity. Because I find brokenness in every part of me, every part of me. And so Christ assumed the whole in order to save the whole. And I think that's something worth being grateful for.
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A
That is something worth being grateful for. That is a beautiful passage. I did not. I've heard that that which was not assumed was not saved. I didn't realize that was him.
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B
That was him.
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Yeah.
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It's one of the letters in this volume.
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A
Yeah. That is great. So thank you, Dr. Mooney, for unpacking St. Gregory of Nazianzus. I also wanted to give a plug to everyone out there, as Dr. Mooney was mention that maybe the message St. Gregory would have for us today is, you know, one of the many is to spend time in Scripture. If you're looking for a little bit of an aid to do that. Our president here at the Augusta Institute is Dr. Tim Gray. He's a scripture scholar and he films every day something called daily reflections with Dr. Tim Gray. They're totally free. You don't have to have a subscription. You can just put in your information, go to daily.formed.org and Dr. Gray walks through the mass readings every day and gives commentary on them. So that's one way if you're looking for a little intro in he gives commentary. They're one of our most beloved pieces of content here so you can check them out. Dr. Mooney, thank you. That was that was wonderful. I learned a lot. So hopefully the people out there did too. So thank you. Until next time. We will see you next time on Catholic Saints.