A (3:26)

No, it's a good question. And maybe that's why it's intentional too. We don't receive a specific reaction to enter into that contemplation.

B (3:33)

Now, their mother's name is Salome. We know that from the foot of the cross. She's at the foot of the cross. So the mother. And we know another scene later in the story of the Gospels where the mother asks Jesus for something special for her sons. So mom is a big supporter of this. And so dad probably stayed back and did the family business. So I think this family is very supportive of their son James and John and Jesus.

A (3:56)

Can we then infer they were faithful Jews if they were so receptive, you could see the sons were so receptive to follow Christ at that short invitation.

B (4:04)

It is. There's something mysterious and beautiful about the action of Christ in one's life where this decisive moment, were they listening to him before. We know from John's Gospel that John was a follower of John the Baptist. And John the Baptist points him to John the Baptist points them to Christ. And they had that beautiful scene where Jesus says, come and see. And so John and Andrew go and follow Jesus, and they stayed one night with him. And we have the scene in John's Gospel where Andrew runs and finds his brother Simon and says, we found the Lord, and he brings Simon, who becomes Peter back. You know, implicit in the text as we're reading in John's Gospel, is that John would run and find his brother James and bring him back. But John, who's writing the fourth Gospel, is just being really sensitive, I think, to that story.

A (4:49)

Interest. Thank you. One other little detail with that invitation scene. Can we infer they came from any wealth? I know in scripture it says the father had hired servants who were helping with the boat. I don't know if that was common or not for fishermen or. Yeah, if that does reveal any background on this apostle.

B (5:04)

Yeah, they might. You know, some theories are that they might even had a house in Jerusalem. And John. Yeah, we don't know, but from the scene. But yeah, the fact that they have their own business now, when you see them fishing, they're not catching. Ever. They're not ever catching fish. So I don't know how this says unless Jesus comes into their life.

A (5:22)

That's true. They keep getting interrupted. Okay, well, maybe we should look into what we do know in scripture. Concretely. You mentioned those big scenes with. With the Lord, transfiguration, the raising of the mother. What scripture would you like to go to that really can reveal the essence of the life of St. James? And maybe some clarification on. It's easy to confuse St. James the Greater with St. James the Lesser. What is. To start with, what does it mean that he's called the Greater?

B (5:51)

Yes. So James the Greater could be, you know, it's indistinction to James the Less, as you mentioned, it just. He's older, probably, is what it means. Yeah, he's just the older one. Yeah, he's probably. He's likely John's older brother, John the soldier brother. So. Okay, that's likely what it means. He is also, you know, James and John as the two brothers. So it's interesting if you look at the apostles, Peter and Andrew are brothers, James and John are brothers. So Jesus is willing to call family groups together, and oftentimes families will raise saints up together. And so I think they're from a good family. In Mark, chapter three, when Mark lists the 12 apostles, he says Simon, who's named Peter, and it says James and John, who are known as Boanerges, which is sons of thunder. So Jesus gives these two brothers a nickname, Sons of Thunder.

A (6:40)

Okay, and is that an insult? Is that a compliment? What does Jesus mean by that?

B (6:45)

Jesus never insults anybody. So let's. Yeah, so it's definitely not an insult, but I think if we look at Luke, chapter nine, we get an insight into their personality. I think what it does is it compliments their. That nickname that Jesus gives. It's a compliment to their personalities. And we get the thunder, lightning, making loud noises. I think that this is, you know, this fiery temperament is what this indicative of what their personalities are. So if you're in Luke chapter nine, Jesus had just sent the apostles. They come back. And John. This is the John of John and James in chapter. So I'm in Luke, chapter 9, verse 49. John answered, Master, we saw a man casting out demons in your name. And we forbade him because he does not follow with us. But he does not. But Jesus said to him, do not forbid him, for he is not against. Whoever is not against you is for you. He had this sense of, come on, we got to, you know, he's not on the same team. We have to do something about it. But the very next scene. So this is Mark 9, 51, Jesus sets his face to Jerusalem, which means he's going to be about his father's business, about his Father's will. He's going to go and be crucified in Jerusalem. He sent messengers ahead of him. So Mark 9, 52, and he went and entered a village of Samaritans to make ready for him. But the people would not receive him because his face was set towards Jerusalem. And when his disciples, James and John saw it, they said, lord, do you wish that for us to do you wish us to bid fire come down from heaven and consume them?

A (8:12)

That's great.

B (8:12)

But Jesus said, no. He rebuked them and they went on to another village. So this kind of is a sign of the temper. James and John are very zealous for Christ and his mission.

A (8:22)

Yes, that's a fun detail we had to receive in Scripture. You have to get into that insight. And the Lord calls them all, all sorts of personalities as well, in that fiery action.

B (8:33)

It's interesting. On the way to Jerusalem, then. So Jesus set his face to Jerusalem. We get James and John, they're fired up. And on the way to Jerusalem. We have different scenes that take place and conversations that Jesus is having because he knows this is the end, right? This is the end of his public ministry. He's handing the key principles by which they should order themselves and the church after the ascension and sending of the Holy Spirit, Pentecost, and what he does in Matthew. So it's In Matthew, chapter 20, or Mark 10, has a version of this story is on the way. The apostles are kind of jockeying for position. One time, who's greater than the other one. But In Matthew, chapter 20, the mother of James and John comes up to our Lord and says, I'd like to ask you something. He says, what would you like? I would like my son to have the right one son to have the right and one son to have the left hand as you come into your kingdom. And it's fascinating because the reaction of the apostles to this we have Jesus word. But let's go to the apostles reaction. The apostles reaction is they're indignant that these two would do something like that. They're probably upset that they didn't think about it first. Like, oh man, they asked for the right and the left and the seats of the kingdom. We know Jesus is the king, he's gonna take his kingdom. We want to be on the right and the left. But Jesus' so Matthew 20 says the mother asked that question. In Mark chapter 10, it's the apostles asked that question. But in Matthew chapter 20 and in Mark chapter 10, Jesus gives the same response. You know, to my right and my left, those have been appointed by the Father. But the cup that I will drink, can you drink it? And the apostles have this beautiful response. James and John, yes, we are able. They don't know what that cup is. But Jesus, are you able to take that cup that I'm offering? They said, yes, we are. So in spite of not knowing what that cup entailed, they so much trust Jesus, they so much are willing to venture on faith. That's a Beautiful Sermon by St. John Henry Newman on this. It starts with this scene of so yes, we are able. It comes from the response of James and John. And in that beautiful sermon, ventures of faith. So if you google it, you can find it and search it and read it. It's a beautiful sermon. But he says, John Henry Newman says, look, men based their trust on other men and interactions with other men. But Christians are meant to base their actions on the words of Christ. And we must. It's necessary that we act in ventures of faith, that we say yes to things that we don't have certainty about. That's what faith is about. And we're expected to do so. And these two apostles, James and John say, yes, we are able to. And Jesus says, you will drink the cup that I will drink. In Mark 10 he adds, the baptism for which I will be baptized, you will be baptized. And if you fast forward and you think of when's the next, you know, when's the right and the left going to be put in before our eyes? In the Scriptures, it's the cross where on the right of Christ and the left of Christ are the thieves that are crucified with him.

A (11:29)

Yes.

B (11:30)

So they won't have that right and the left yet, but they will drink the cup which he's going to Drink. They will be baptized with the baptism with which he will baptize, which is death and martyrdom. And so James says yes, and James will actually be the first martyr of all the apostles. So they do drink the cup.

A (11:47)

No, thank you. That's a really interesting point. And just knowing they were in Jesus inner circle, they were following in his footsteps, so they had some relationship of trust with him to go all in to his invitation.

B (11:59)

Well, this is the call of every Christian is we are called to make decisions based on the word of Christ, on the word of God. Not to, you know, to look at our bank accounts, not to look at, you know, the way the stock exchange or the news, and make our decisions based on that. We want to be prudent. We want to apply the principles of the Gospel to the news that we receive in the world, not allow the news to dictate our actions in the Christian life.

A (12:20)

Correct? Correct.

B (12:21)

Yeah.

A (12:22)

Well, what do we do know about his death and his martyrdom? But what before his martyrdom? What do we know about where he went after the Lord's resurrection? Where did he go on mission?

B (12:34)

So it's the last words of Christ to the apostles, Go, therefore make disciples of all nations. And they actually go to all nations. All the apostles leave the boundaries. If it were of the Roman Empire, tradition says, pious tradition, legend says that James goes to Spain, which has been the westernmost part of the Roman Empire, so Spain and evangelizes there and then comes back to Jerusalem and is going to be killed. And we have the, we have account of his death in Acts chapter 12. In Acts, chapter 12. So in Acts chapter 12, verse one, Herod the King says, Herod Agrippa the First, this is the grandson of Herod the Great. So if in the story about the babies in Matthew's gospel being killed, this is the grandson. He killed James, the brother of John with a sword. And when he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also. This was during the days of unleavened bread. When he had seized him, he put him in prison, delivered him to four squads of soldiers to guard him, intending after, after the Passover to bring him out to the people. Peter was kept in prison, but earnest prayer for him was made by to God and by the church. So Herod beheads James. The crowd loved it. So he arrests Peter, the head of the apostles. Peter's in prison and look how many guards he puts around him. This is then the story that leads that Peter is released from prison at night by an angel in God's mysterious providence. He wanted James to be martyred and give his life as a witness here. But he lets Peter escape from prison because Peter has other things to do.

A (14:08)

Yes. Interesting.

B (14:09)

So, again, another note of providence in the whole story is things happen according to God's will. Why didn't James also get arrested and be put in prison and escape so he could evangelize?

A (14:19)

Why didn't Peter die first with his primacy?

B (14:21)

Yep. So this is what God wanted of James and asked of him. This is the cup of which he asked him to drink.

A (14:28)

Interesting. And he said yes. And this is the scene, too, where it makes sense. On one of the emblems for St James, there is a shell and there's a sword. And I'm assuming the sword is referring to this piece of scripture of his die.

B (14:41)

Exactly. So when you. When you're looking at artwork that has saints involved, every saint has an image or a couple images, iconographic image, if you want to use a fancy word of. That symbolizes something about them. So usually it is an instrument of martyrdom, if they're a martyr or something that they've done in mission. So the sword for beheading and then the shell for. He's known for a famous pilgrimage route in Spain.

A (15:04)

Yes, yes. I've hiked the Camino before, so I do have a great devotion to St. James the Greater.

B (15:09)

Where?

A (15:10)

At the very end in the church, Santiago de Compostela, the relics of St. James are buried and laid. So you can go at the end of a long journey, ask for his intercession in your life.

B (15:22)

And how did he get back to Spain from Jerusalem?

A (15:28)

Someone brought him there.

B (15:29)

Yeah, that's the tradition. Yeah, that's the tradition is that his body, his disciples bring him back to the land that he would evangelize, and that's why he's there now. Why do you think the connection between. And there's a beautiful story also that happens in Spain before he passes. I'd like to share, but why do you think that James is connected to a pilgrimage route and also being the first martyr?

A (15:50)

I'm assuming it has to do with his preaching of the gospel, that perhaps he was known for walking and journeying and preaching the gospel after he was sent on mission. And so that's why they laid his relics at the end of a pilgrimage journey.

B (16:07)

It's like a far. Like, the idea is that, you know, to be a. He was out to be a disciple maker. And then we as Christians are called to be disciple makers, and.

A (16:16)

Yes. Is this correct?

B (16:17)

No, I was thinking about this as I was preparing for this and I was thinking through, like, what's the connection? And what struck me was the Christian life is often called a pilgrimage. The idea of pilgrimage is that you're no longer in your home, that you're on a journey. And that journey is taking you, usually to a physical place, to a holy site to pray. But it's emblematic of a microcosm of your own Christian journey, but also a chance for conversion and prayer and thinking about things in a deeper level. And I think that a pilgrimage route that is dedicated to St. James the first martyr, is significant because the Christian life is a pilgrimage, but the Christian life is, at its heart, cruciform. It is meant to look like Christ's life and Christ's life ending on the cross. And so that we each are called, as Christ says, to take up or commanded to take up our cross daily and follow him. That the Christian pilgrimage is a journey to the cross in imitation of Christ. And so the different scenes in our life that are heavier than others, you know, these are like stations of the cross on the way to our final kind of engagement, where we get to, you know, where we pass from this life to the next. And that when we become Christian, we have to be willing to even give our life to the point of shedding blood to be a martyr.

A (17:33)

Yes.

B (17:34)

So I think it's significant. He has this great pilgrimage route attached to him.

A (17:37)

And it mirrors what you were sharing earlier. The. Yes. Even despite the ambiguity. Ambiguity of what it follows. To drink the cup that Lord hasn't that they said yes to drink. We don't exactly know what that cross will look like in the journey. I was also reminded in baptism, correct. When a parent and a priest, they're baptizing a child. Is it. It's a shell like item.

B (18:00)

Yeah. Often churches will use a shell. Yeah, that's right.

A (18:02)

I believe has that same connotation of the pilgrimage. This baby is being launched into their journey to Jesus, to heaven as well.

B (18:10)

That's great. I do want to share. There's a great pious legend associated with the life of St. James.

A (18:16)

Okay.

B (18:17)

It takes place in Spain, and the story goes is that in 4042 A.D. or something like that, he is evangelizing in Spain, and it's just unfruitful. No one's responding positively. No one's receiving the Gospel, and he's very disheartened. And so he receives the first Marian apparition because Mary's alive either in Jerusalem or Ephesus, Mary bilocates Appears to James to encourage him, which is fitting as a mother, right. That John. She's in the care of John, his brother. That she goes and she appears to James on a pillar, and she says, look, I know that your mission is not bearing fruit, but this is what the Lord has asked you to do. Your mission will bear fruit. This country will be evangelized someday. So he's strengthened by. As a, you know, as a sign that, you know, that this, the faith, is the firm foundation upon which to build your life. She appeared on a pillar. She hands him the pillar, this little pillar. And he takes it and, you know, takes it with him on mission. He goes back to Jerusalem, and that's when he experiences martyrdom. And then his disciples, knowing this story, bring the body back to Spain. And we know Spain as a Catholic country. Yeah. Maybe not as much today, but it was a great Catholic country, and we pray that it still can recover its Catholic identity. So the story is. So it's an approved Marian shrine. It's in Zaragoza in Spain, if you've ever been there. Our lady of Pilar. So if you have a devotion, if you know any Spanish friends that have a daughter named Pilar, it's from this apparition, Our lady of the Pillar. So her feast day is October 12, which is also the day that Christopher Columbus said, if we don't find land, we will turn around. And he finds land on October 12th. So his commemoration day that we celebrate in the United States is October 12th. And it has to do with Our lady of Pilar, this apparition to St. James. So that's our connection to. As Americans. That's our connection to the story of St. James. St. James's feast day is July 25th. So if you want to celebrate that.

A (20:17)

Yes. One other question I have is when you're hiking the Camino, it's a bit of a legend of, did St. James actually walk this route or not? I think I've come to the conclusion that he did not, but the pilgrimage is an ethos of his memory. Would you confirm or deny that? That it's likely he didn't actually walk those trails?

B (20:39)

But, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if we have any evidence for. Against it. So. Yeah.

A (20:43)

Okay.

B (20:45)

Well, there's lots of. Actually many paths to get to Compostela.

A (20:48)

Yeah.

B (20:49)

So there's the France. If you do the pilgrimage, the community. You go the France route. You can go the southern route. So he did all the routes. He did all the routes before his passing. Exactly. Major hiker but there is that right by Santiago de Campos. I've not done the Camino, but I've been to the church. Right. Just the next town over is like Fin de la mundo or something like the end of the world. So it really was the thought that it's a beautiful reflection to think of James go to the ends of the earth and preach the Gospel, and he goes to the ends of the earth and that's where he is now.

A (21:18)

Yes. Do you have any personal devotion to Saint James?

B (21:20)

I do. I love Saint James. I named my oldest son James after this Saint the Greater. James the Greater. Yes, exactly.

A (21:27)

Wonderful. And then one other clarification. Deal. The book of Saint James is the book of Saint James attributed to Saint James the Greater or Saint James the Lesser.

B (21:34)

Saint James the Lesser. Okay, so this is the James. So if you're reading the letter of James, awesome. Book of the New Testament, like every book of the Scriptures, James in the New Testament is attributed to James, sometimes called James the Just or James the Lesser. But this is the James of Acts 15 that stands up in the council of Jerusalem. So James the Greater has already passed because his death is in Acts 12. But Acts 15, that's the same James.

A (21:59)

Do we know anything about St. James the Greater's disciples in Acts or in Scripture? Any specific people?

B (22:05)

Nothing comes to mind.

A (22:06)

Okay, great. Well, thank you. Is there anything else about the Life of St. James or Scripture that.

B (22:11)

No, I just encourage. Thanks for having me on. I think that the. For us, the, you know, the Camino, many people have had people without faith even do the Camino because it really is a long, arduous walk towards a holy place, helps one think and put one's life in perspective. And so I think that anytime you can make a pilgrimage, it's great. If you can make a Camino, great. But a pilgrimage can be as simple as going to, walking to church, or walking to a couple churches over a little bit further. And if you don't have a holy site close to you, but if you have a holy site close to you, see if you could take a half day, a day, once a year, if you can pull it off once every couple months. And to really help calibrate yourself and keep your life in check, you know, am I living what the Lord has asked me to live in my life?

A (23:01)

Absolutely. And although getting to the destination is wonderful, getting to the arrival of the relics of St. James to venerate is a great accomplishment. It is always about the journey, the struggle, the waking up early in the morning, the blisters analogous to this rich life, the journey along the way en route to the pilgrimage destination where the Lord bears a lot of fruit. So thank you so much, Dr. Akers, for this this episode on St. James. Like Dr. Aker said, St. James the Greater's feast day is July 25th. So thank you for watching and St. James the Greater, pray for us. Thank you for being a dedicated.