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Catholic Saints
St. James the Lesser
00:24:22
There are lots of Jameses mentioned in the Gospels, including two among Jesus' twelve apostles. In this episode of Catholic Saints, Dr. James Prothro (another James!) and Mary McGeehan talk about the life and witness of the first bishop of Jerusalem. They also discuss the Letter of James and how Catholics today can follow the heroic example of St. James the Lesser. For more on St. James and St. Paul, read Dr. Prothro's book: A Pauline Theology of Justification: Forgiveness, Friendship, and Life in Christ.
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Narrator
You're listening to a podcast on Catholic Saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustine Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live, and share their faith.
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Mary McGhehan
Welcome to Catholic Saints. My name is Mary McGhehan, and today we are joined with Dr. James Perthrow, professor of Sacred Scripture and Theology. Thank you for being with us today, Mel.
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Dr. James Perthrow
Thanks so much for having me.
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Mary McGhehan
And on this episode of Catholic Saints, we're going to talk about St. James the Lesser. So our goal for Catholic Saints is to learn about the saints in heaven and look to them for inspiration for our lives today. So St. James the Lesser to be confused with many other St. James in scripture. So there's a lot of James out there, and I don't think we actually know that much about St. James the Lesser. But who is he? Where does he come from? Okay, let's start there.
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Dr. James Perthrow
Absolutely. So one thing to do is there's lots of Jameses. Cause I think we actually know a fair bit about this particular James. So in the number of the 12 disciples, according to Matthew, Mark and Luke, there's two Jameses. Yes. So there's Peter, James and John, the sort of three central ones.
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Mary McGhehan
And.
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Dr. James Perthrow
And that's James the son of Zebedee, who's John's brother. Right. Jesus comes, finds him in the boat, they leave their dad, they go with him. Right. And he's called James the Greater, either because he's more important or because he was taller. Right. Cause greater doesn't always mean, like, significant greater. It can also just mean, like higher.
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Mary McGhehan
Just bigger.
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Dr. James Perthrow
Yeah, just bigger. Interesting. Then there's also somebody in the gospels called James the Less, who is the son of someone named Mary, who's not Mary the mother of Jesus, but is at the cross with her, goes to the tomb with her. And then John is said to be Mary, who's the wife of Clopas, who according to very early, very early tradition, is St. Joseph of the Holy Family, St. Joseph's brother. So that would make her Mary's sister in law, and that would make her kids Jesus cousins. Right? Yeah. So to St. James. So the St. James the less who gets mentioned one time in Mark is brothers with Josies. And if you go to mark 6, when people in Nazareth are complaining about knowing Jesus and being too familiar with him. Right. A prophet's never without honor except in his own hometown. They say, don't we know this guy? Aren't his brothers James and Joses or Matthew, Joseph. That's the same name, just different version. Joseph and Simon and Jude. Right over there. Right. Don't we know them aren't his sisters over there too? Right. And remember, the word for sister and brother can be sister, brother, Right? Like we have the same parents. Or it can be like brother, brother in law. It can be half. And it can be like kind of your cousins too. There's some places in the Old Testament where like an uncle and a nephew are called brothers to each other. And you go, whoa, okay, all right. So.
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Mary McGhehan
So he's definitely somehow related to Jesus, whether it's a cousin, some lineage.
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Dr. James Perthrow
That's right. And James, the brother, cousin. Right. Of Jesus, becomes the first bishop in Jerusalem after the resurrection of Jesus. Right. So after Easter, becomes the first bishop in Jerusalem. And he ends up doing some really important things in conversation with the other apostles, especially a big council in Acts 15 about how they're going to bring Gentiles into the church. How much of the Old Testament law do New Gentile Christians need to keep, non Jewish Christians need to keep. This was a really big thing in the first century and for a few centuries after that too. And James was a really important part of that. And then that same James who was the bishop of Jerusalem, James, the relative of Jesus, also ends up writing the Epistle of James in our New Testament.
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Mary McGhehan
All the same guy.
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Dr. James Perthrow
All the same guy. So about that James, we have a lot. And then some of the questions come up as to which James is which.
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Mary McGhehan
So is this St. James the Lesser? Is he. He is one of the sons of Zebedee. No, no, no, he is not.
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Dr. James Perthrow
It gets weird. So he's. So there's two kind of ways. There's two sort of traditions here. One of them from some of the earliest church histories is that James, who was bishop of Jerusalem, who is a relative of Jesus and who wrote the epistle of James, was not one of the 12. Right. And we can guess at this in two ways that this seems to sort of check out. One is that in the Gospels, both in the Synoptic Gospels, and then in John chapter seven, they say explicitly that Jesus family, not including Mary or Joseph, he was still alive. But most of Jesus close relatives didn't actually believe in him yet. And the Gospels tell us that explicitly. And in First Corinthians 15, where Paul says, then Jesus appeared to these people and these people and these people, he says he appeared to the 12 and to James. And he's talking about the James who wrote. Right. The James who was the bishop in Jerusalem. So this is a James that's not in the 12, it seems to be. Right. And that's why this one? Sort of really early sort of tradition of who this James is in the 400s. Jerome said, I bet that James the Less, this guy who did all these things, is actually James the son of Alphaeus from the list of the 12. And so he kind of puts them together and he's making. He's having to argue against people who are saying, oh, see this James is the brother of Jesus, and so it must be the same brother. And he's like, no, they're cousins, right? So he's having that kind of an argument. And he wants as few James as possible to be there. So for him, James the Less is James son of Alphaeus, who's one of the 12. And then he's not the son of Zebedee. James the son of Zebedee dies in Acts, chapter 12. He's killed by Agrippa, by the new Herod, the James, the relative of Jesus who wrote James, who seems to be also James the Less, was killed with, was thrown off of the temple. And if we talk about his character, I'll share something about that that I think is really cool. But anyway. But the good thing is, if there's confusion in our minds, there's not confusion in heaven. So as we celebrate, we celebrate St. James the Less on May 3rd, along with Philip as James, the son of Alphaeus. And we call on him for his intercession. Right. They can share. And if you're talking to a specific one, saying, St. James, you wrote these beautiful words, please pray for me that I would follow them in scripture. And you don't specify which James you're talking to. It's fine. The right one knows.
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Mary McGhehan
Equal, opportunist. No, that is helpful, thank you. I need like a line map, visual to help keep him all straight. I am curious then, what if he was this St. James, the last time was not one of the 12. How do we know he. Where did he learn, you know, from Jesus and what. Yeah, what do we know about his character? And looking then at his letter of St. James in Scripture, what are, you know, some of the signature styles about his letter that are different than others, I think would interesting to flesh out the saint.
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Dr. James Perthrow
Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, we could start sort of with like, who is he and how does he come. Like, how does he come to be the bishop, you know, in Jerusalem and to have such an important role in the early church. And the first thing is he seems to if he wasn't one of the 12. Right. And again, Jerome says that he was right. He argues that he was. And other people held that he wasn't. But if he's not one of the 12, he seems to have come around maybe at least a little bit enough before Easter. And even if he didn't, Jesus still sort of picks him out the same way that Paul wasn't following Jesus around. He didn't know about the stuff while it was going on. And then he definitely was against the Christian movement when he first encountered it. But Jesus came to him and revealed himself to him. Him. Right. And he believed. And Jesus gave him his call and commission to be an apostle. And in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul says Jesus after his resurrection, appeared to James. Right. Specifically. So my guess is that James had started to come around before then. But if he hadn't, he got the same kind of treatment that Paul got, right. And was called out of his right. Stupor or hardness or whatever it was, right. And given this commission to lead. And so he began to teach and write. And if that's the case, then even if he's not one of the 12, he's an apostle the same way that Paul was.
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Mary McGhehan
Okay, that is. And a quick, I guess, detour on that subject. So the book of James often is quoted for signature flavor verses that really uphold the Catholic faith. The whole Bible upholds the Catholic faith. But, you know, quotes like the faith, faith is dead without works, which sometimes seems in contrast to what we hear St. Paul say. So it's actually great they had similar invitations to follow Jesus. But would you say that's true? That does St. James ever seem to provide a different perspective, that contrast, or just, you know, provides a new angle on St. Paul's writings?
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Dr. James Perthrow
No, absolutely. So, I mean, as a Paul scholar who just wrote a book about faith and works and salvation.
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Mary McGhehan
Okay, I have to write down.
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Dr. James Perthrow
I just finished one.
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Mary McGhehan
Perfect.
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Dr. James Perthrow
It just came out. So this is very, very close to my heart. I'm going to try not to talk too much, but as a Paul person, the first thing I would say is that in the early church, something that's really interesting, and Dr. Mooney, who works here has pointed this out in a really great article, is that James2.24, where James says, you can see that a person isn't justified by faith alone, but by works or works that complete your faith. That's kind of like the dog that didn't bark in a lot of the early church. Because you would think that people would cite this a whole lot against certain problems, but they rarely cite this as actual opposition to Paul. Most people just think that they agree and so it's really kind of a novel reading of Paul and not the ancient reading of Paul that says, oh, when he says faith, not works of the law, he must mean no works at all.
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Mary McGhehan
Interesting.
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Dr. James Perthrow
So for Paul, usually when he talks about faith, he means what we call a living faith, or what James would call a living faith. One that actually, like, I believe and I trust in Jesus so much so that I will do what he says and believe it's good for me, and I will say sorry when I don't do what he says. Right, right. Faith and obedience go together. Right. Just the same way that. Yeah. I mean, you could say, well, yeah, like James points to Abraham, Paul also points to Abraham. Right. They both use Abraham for their particular ways of saying what they're saying. But Paul will jump straight from you believe. So why are you doing this? That's wrong. You shouldn't do that. If you believe that these things are true, you're being false to yourself. Or when people are misbehaving, he'll say, test yourself to see if you're still in the faith. Paul has faith and works always right next to each other. They're just sort of one big whole thing. James seems to be responding to people who will separate the two. And James is happy to sort of play that game and say, if you're going to distinguish faith from works, then faith is dead without works. He says of Abraham, he says, Abraham's works completed or perfected his faith. So he's not saying works instead of faith. Who cares about faith? It's all about your works. Can you show me what you believe? And it's not for Paul about faith as opposed to what you do. Who cares what you do? Right. Both of them have the two together. Right. And both of them see faith as sort of the first and kind of foundational glue thing to it. Yeah. In the way that they argue. And that's when we are reading the two against each other or when we're trying to sort of fix what they're saying. It can be easy to miss how much there are two branches coming off of the same root of truth. But Paul arguing to people who are trusting simply in external works like circumcision for salvation. Right. And James arguing against people who are trusting in their faith with completely opposite lifestyle. Right. Without any kind of repentance. Right.
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Mary McGhehan
And could you lean more into that? Who was James particularly writing to?
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Dr. James Perthrow
Ooh, okay. So James, his letter is one of my favorite in the whole New Testament. I just love it, even though I've Spent most of my life so far writing about Paul. So James starts off his entire Epistle just by saying that he's writing to the church at large. So he says, james, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus christ to the 12 tribes in the dispersion, right? So he's envisioning the church as Israel, sort of spread out everywhere from Jerusalem or from their home. And he talks about lots of different kinds of things. So he doesn't seem to have a single particular group that he's writing to the way that Paul does when he's like, hi, I'm writing to you, Corinthians. And you Corinthians have these specific Corinthian problems that also are US problems, but that's a different issue. Disunity, sexual immorality, whatnot. But James is kind of writing broadly, but he does seem in James 2 to have a particular kind of person in view, right? Because he says, what good is this? Is James 2:14, where he starts off the faith without works kind of conversation. He says, what good is it, my brothers? If someone says he has faith but does not have works, can that faith or such faith, can it save him? Well, no. He says, if you profess faith but nothing in your life actually follows that, then it's an empty profession. For Paul, I think he would say that's not actually faith, right? For James, he says, you can call it faith, but it won't save you because it's not perfected or embodied by any works. And he says in verse 18 to somebody else who again, is separating faith and works, someone will say, you have faith, but I have works. That's also wrong. You can have your faith, but I have works, and I'll be fine with that. James says, no, show me your faith apart from your works. I'll show you my faith by my works, because that's the only way you can see it. And he actually says here, he says, Chapter 2, verse 26, as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. And if you think really hard about this, this sounds a little bit strange because he's comparing faith to the body and works to the spirit. And a lot of people would think it's the other way around. Martin Luther, who of course didn't like James all that much, has a short rant in one of his little table talks where he says, james is nuts. Why would you ever listen to him? He makes a complete, utter blunder in chapter two where he compares faith not to the heart and Your soul, but to the body on the outside. Who cares about the body? Here's the thing. That's James whole point, the integration. Body, soul, faith works whole person, right. He says, if you are a hearer of the law of God's word, God's truth, and not a doer of it.
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Mary McGhehan
What'S the point?
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Dr. James Perthrow
Yeah. Then you're not actually on the boat. Right? You might say you're on the boat. You might say, I'm a Christian because I hear and say yes to some of these things. But actually don't say yes with your will, and you don't say yes with your checkbook, and you don't say yes with your embraces, and you don't say yes with your patience. And you don't say yes with everything else like that. You're not actually saying yes. Right. You might think that you're on the boat, but actually you're more like somebody who's been sitting around on the outside who's heard what time the boat is leaving and you're kind of watching it go. You're not. You haven't actually joined the. Join the club.
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Mary McGhehan
Just get on the boat.
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Dr. James Perthrow
Sorry, I'm mixing all of my metaphors. Join the club, get on the boat. Body, soul. Right.
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Mary McGhehan
Totally following. Yes. No, thank you. That's a beautiful teaching. I'm very grateful St. James has so eloquently integrated this aspect of our faith for us. Is there. I have two other questions for you as we wrap up. Is there anything else for. From his book or his character that you just would love to share?
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Dr. James Perthrow
Oh, my gosh.
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Mary McGhehan
I know there's a lot.
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Dr. James Perthrow
There's so much. But I'll share one thing. This is from the church history written by Eusebius. And he describes James character. And so Eusebius reports that to everybody, both to Jews and Christians in Jerusalem, James was known as James the Justice, the Righteous, because many people were called James. But he was holy. He says he drank no wine or strong drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor went upon his head. He was like a Nazirite. He was like a new Samson. It says he was allowed to enter the sanctuary and he wore linen, kind of like a priest, but he said he was often found in the temple. And he would enter alone and would kneel and pray for the forgiveness of the people, for his own people, his own nation, whom he was trying to serve as a bishop in Jerusalem for his own people, his own city, who had crucified Jesus. That's beautiful. And not in rejection or in anger, but Praying patiently, witnessing to them. And it says he was kneeling and praying for the forgiveness of the people so often that his knees grew hard like a camel's because of his constant worship of God, kneeling and asking forgiveness of the people, people. And from his excessive righteousness, he was called the just and oblias, which, like, he was like a strong defensive wall. And that he, by doing this right, was able to win over and convert many in Jerusalem who weren't able to listen to St. Paul's message. Because Paul is trying to do mission work for the Gentiles, who don't. Who don't need to worry about Nazarite vows or about not eating meat or not eating pork or things like that, about purity. And James agrees with that. But Paul's out there doing this. And the way that Paul has to say it to bring these people in and convince them isn't something that the people around James, the people James is serving, can hear very well. And James talks to them in their own language. Right. He doesn't stand there in Jerusalem and say, forget the temple. It's unnecessary anymore. He says, well, like, we have the Holy Spirit, so we're the temple of God, Right in our hearts. But I can still go here and pray. It's still a sacred place. I can still go. And he does. Right? And he goes faithfully. And by his witness and his kind of witness, he was able to, according to Eusebius, win over lots of Pharisees and others to the faith who, when they heard Paul, went, whoa, right. That sounds crazy, right? But the greatness of it is that according to St. Paul and according to the Book of Acts, James and Paul agree, but they're able to say the same truth in different ways for the way that people will need to hear it to be won over. Interesting. And that's encouragement to us. Yeah.
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Mary McGhehan
Great model for us today as well. So needed. I love that imagery of him kneeling. That was it. The knees became callous like a camel. Or just that model of intercession for the people that you're called to serve and minister to. Okay, my last question, since you're named James, do you know which James you were named after? Or do you have any particular devotion to St. James?
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Dr. James Perthrow
I was just. I was named after my grandpa. If you go back down my family line, almost every guy is James or Charles, and my name is James and my son's name is Charles. It's a good name. So that's the motivation for my name was primarily that. But I have a devotion to St. James. Especially through his letter. And this is an important thing to remember that we are called to learn from the lives of the saints and the lives of all the saints and their lives of heroic virtue. But if someone's a doctor of the church or if they wrote a book of sacred scripture that's inspired by God, we have a special right, calling and invitation not just to sort of see their example and be amazed. Right. But to also call to them through their teaching. Right? To be. To be instructed by them in an explicit way. You know, there's other saints. We know of their great virtue, we know their stories and we know the power of their intercession now, but we actually don't know, like, if they contributed anything specific to the teaching of the doctrine of the church. St. James is one who did. So my favorite way to encourage people to have a devotion to St. James the less or James the Just, as Eusebius would call him, is to read his Epistle and to read through it, to let his call. To let what you profess to believe and what you do be one. Right? Completely. Let it punch you in the gut a bit and let it also sort of lift you up and call you to prayer, to ask God to help you with what is still lacking, to praise God and ask St. James to intercede for us and guide us in a way of patient and intercessory righteousness that he had for us.
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Mary McGhehan
Thank you. Thank you. So read the book, the Epistle of St. James. God picked him for a reason to write that book. So let's open it up. Well, thank you so much for that reflection and teaching and clarity on all the dreams that are out there. Appreciate it. And so we just conclude St. James pray for us. Thanks for joining.
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Narrator
You can watch these interviews in video format by visiting formed.org formed is an online Catholic streaming service created by the Augustan Institute Institute and Ignatius Press, with award winning studies and parish programs, inspiring audio content, movies, ebooks and family friendly kids programming to support the mission of the Augustan institute. Please visit missioncircle.org.