Catholic Saints Podcast – St. John Chrysostom

Podcast: Catholic Saints
Host: Augustine Institute
Episode Date: September 13, 2025
Speakers:

• Mary McGeehan (Host, “B”)
• Dr. Carl Fennerstrom (Guest, “C”)
• Producer/Announcer (“A” at intro/outro)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Mary McGeehan of the Augustine Institute interviews Dr. Carl Fennerstrom, professor at the Institute, to explore the life, legacy, and spiritual wisdom of St. John Chrysostom. The discussion highlights Chrysostom’s upbringing, rhetorical brilliance, contributions as a bishop and preacher, the controversies surrounding his ministry and death, and enduring lessons for modern Christians. The conversation is thoughtful, accessible, and deeply appreciative of Chrysostom’s significance to both Eastern and Western Christian traditions.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Life, Background, and Education

[01:03 – 04:44]

• Time and Place:
  • Born 347 AD in Antioch, a critical city for early Christianity (the first place followers of Jesus were called Christians per Acts of the Apostles).
• Family and Upbringing:
  • Came from a wealthy Christian family with his father holding a high military position.
  • Profoundly influenced by his mother; after her death, he chose monastic life.
• Education:
  • Studied rhetoric under Libanius, the leading pagan rhetorician of the Roman Empire.
  • Libanius reputedly said on his deathbed that John would have succeeded him if not for his Christianity:

    “Chrysostom would have succeeded him...if he hadn't had become a Christian.” (Dr. Fennerstrom, 02:01)

Call to Faith and Monasticism

[04:44 – 05:34]

• Conversion & Vocation:
  • Baptized at age 20.
  • Abandoned rhetoric and legal career for monasticism; deeply attributed this choice to his mother and a monastically-minded friend.
• Monastic Life and Health:
  • Spent four years in a monastery and two as a hermit. The rigorous fasting weakened him, prompting return to city life and ordination as a deacon.

Life as Bishop and Preacher

[06:08 – 10:08]

• Reluctant Bishop:
  • Became bishop (Patriarch) of Constantinople in 398 AD; he resisted the role which, as Dr. Fennerstrom jokes, seems a trait of many reluctant saints.
  • Entered office with a commitment to humility and poverty, stripping the episcopal residence of riches to distribute to the poor.
• Preaching and Legacy:
  • Renowned for brilliant preaching—hence the title “Chrysostom” (“golden-tongued”).
  • His preserved homilies and commentaries are a cornerstone of Christian liturgical and spiritual life, especially evident in the Liturgy of the Hours.
• Cultural Context:
  • In an age where public speeches were prime entertainment, Chrysostom’s oratory earned wide respect.

    “In antiquity...entertainment was going to watch someone give a speech. And so he did this as a preacher, but he sort of gained the respect of everybody for his abilities.” (Dr. Fennerstrom, 03:27)

Enduring Homilies — A Notable Excerpt

[08:10 – 10:19]

• Easter Homily:
  • His most famous is read at Easter, especially in Eastern traditions (Pascha). Dr. Fennerstrom compares it to the Gettysburg Address for brevity and power.
  • Sample lines:

    “Come, you all enter into the joy of the Lord. You first and you last. You who have kept the fast of Lent...and you who have not, rejoice today...Let no one grieve over his poverty, for the universal kingdom has been revealed. Let no one weep over his sins, for pardon has shone from the grave. Let no one fear death, for the death of our Savior has set us free.” (Dr. Fennerstrom, quoting Chrysostom, 09:00–09:50)

Preservation of His Writings

[10:19 – 12:16]

• How His Words Survived:
  • Recognized as foundational even during his lifetime and soon after death.
  • Monks painstakingly copied his works over centuries, leading to their survival today.
  • Commentary on the “miracle” of such ancient preservation:

    “With anything from antiquity that we still have, there’s this kind of miracle of...people thinking it's important and copying it...just the wonder and awe of how it's still so relevant to my life today.” (Mary, 12:07)

Controversy and Exile

[12:20 – 16:02]

• Conflict with Power:
  • His preaching against extravagance, especially targeting Empress Eudoxia, led to his downfall.
  • He denounced both clerical and royal abuses.
  • Mary: “Do we know what he did to offend her so greatly?”
    Carl: “Yeah, well, I mean, he, like, just preached against her wealth and ostentation and lack of generosity...he also preached against clericalism...the Empress Eudoxia was the person with political power to punish John Chrysostom.” (13:18)
• Exile and Death:
  • Court and clerical opposition exploited a theological controversy as pretext.
  • Ultimately exiled in poor health, dying en route; his rehabilitation within the Church later proved politically awkward.

    “He was an equal opportunity offender...willing to offend priests...and even, like, powerful priests in the hierarchy.” (Dr. Fennerstrom, 15:30–15:38)

Lessons and Legacy for Today

[16:14 – 21:12]

• Wisdom on Leadership and Holiness:
  • In 'On the Priesthood,' Chrysostom warns it is harder to be holy as a priest or bishop, due to the distractions and temptations of leadership:

    “He thinks that if you're a monk, you can live a life which is free of a lot of the distractions and temptations...but that you should be very wary of taking a role that would entail this kind of leadership...your first responsibility as a human being is your salvation. And so you should avoid things that put that possibly in jeopardy, if you can.” (Dr. Fennerstrom, 16:30–19:00)

  • Today’s “obsession” with leadership is contrasted with Chrysostom’s caution.

    “It’s the opposite of what we have today...all about, like, leadership, leadership, leadership...He's a good reminder that your first responsibility as a human being is your salvation.” (19:00)

• Responsibility of Leaders:
  • Leadership must be a humble response to grace, not self-aggrandizement.

    “A purification of what is your motive for leadership? Is it for that self aggrandizement or is it a gift that the Lord is inviting you into and will provide the grace for...” (Mary, 19:00)

• Eastern and Western Importance:
  • In the East, counted among the “Three Holy Hierarchs” (with Gregory of Nazianzus and Basil the Great).
  • In the West, one of a few dozen official “Doctors of the Church.”
• Doctor of the Church:
  • Title reflects recognized purity, effectiveness, and reliability of teaching.

    “People are usually...declared doctors of the Church by the Pope. And it's a recognition of the sort of purity and effectiveness and reliability of that figure's teaching.” (Dr. Fennerstrom, 20:29)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Golden-Tongued Oratory:

  “Get out all the syllables—he was such an incredible speaker...this is like a title that was given to him because he was such an incredible speaker.” (Dr. Fennerstrom, 02:31–03:06)

• On Preaching as Entertainment:

  “Entertainment was going to watch someone give a speech...He did this as a preacher, but he sort of gained the respect of everybody for his abilities.” (03:26–03:50)

• On His Enduring Relevance:

  “It is a really beautiful thing...there’s this kind of miracle of, like, these thousand little events of people thinking it's important and copying it...Just the wonder and awe of how it's still so relevant to my life today.” (Dr. Fennerstrom & Mary, 12:08)

• On the Caution of Leadership:

  “You should avoid things that put [your salvation] possibly in jeopardy, if you can.” (19:00)

Important Timestamps

• Early Life: 01:03–06:08
• Bishop and Preacher: 06:08–10:08
• Easter Homily Sample: 09:00–09:50
• Preservation of Writings: 10:19–12:16
• Controversy and Exile: 12:20–16:02
• On True Leadership/Lessons for Today: 16:30–21:12
• Doctors of the Church/Eastern Hierarchs: 20:08–21:12

Conclusion

This episode provided a rich portrait of St. John Chrysostom: bold reformer, masterful preacher, reluctant but faithful bishop, and wise teacher on the pitfalls and responsibilities of Christian leadership. His life challenges every listener to seek holiness first, be wary of ambition, speak the truth with courage, and cherish the faith received through the perseverance of countless others.

Memorable prayerful close:

“St. John Chrysostom, pray for us.” (Mary & Dr. Carl, 21:24–21:25)